MiyazakiHatesKojima
Banned
"Diminishing returns"
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Scorn Dev on the Differences Between the PS5 and Series X SSDs: "I feel that it will end up a matter of diminishing returns"
- Thread starter ManaByte
- Start date
Tarkus98
Member
Wow, the very first gen that is using SSD’s and already we are at a point of diminishing returns. Where the hell do they find these people.
And yes I know I am using his term out of context, but I’m just some stupid gamer.
Seriously, there is going to be a notible difference between the SSD’s as it appears the PS5 was somewhat built around its SSD and I/O capabilities just as Series X was built around maximizing power.
Other things like audio may be more of a “wash” but not the SSD’s throughput.
And yes I know I am using his term out of context, but I’m just some stupid gamer.
Seriously, there is going to be a notible difference between the SSD’s as it appears the PS5 was somewhat built around its SSD and I/O capabilities just as Series X was built around maximizing power.
Other things like audio may be more of a “wash” but not the SSD’s throughput.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Oh, I bet we'll see a similar situation as PS4 Pro vs. XSX in terms of multiplat games, where XBX versions will run at proper 4K or have some higher settings. The power gap (percentage wise) is smaller this time around by most accounts, though. It will probably come down to faster load times vs. higher resolution for the most part. I'm just speculating, though.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
I really don't see how he's wrong.
The actual size of the games will be the bottleneck for anyone creating a game on PS5. It can stream like 200GB of data in 30 seconds.
It's just basic math.. it's an awesome advancement, basically freeing devs from worrying about a huge bottleneck in other systems, but you wont' be able to fully leverage it much without using massive amounts of disk space.
As discussed before they don't need to duplicate data and they can try to save space in other ways (like maybe not have you download all audio languages, that sort of thing), but 5.5GB / second is sort of beyond what's sustainable for a game with any decent sized worlds.
Super curious to know how much space that ~5 minute demo took up from Epic.
The actual size of the games will be the bottleneck for anyone creating a game on PS5. It can stream like 200GB of data in 30 seconds.
It's just basic math.. it's an awesome advancement, basically freeing devs from worrying about a huge bottleneck in other systems, but you wont' be able to fully leverage it much without using massive amounts of disk space.
As discussed before they don't need to duplicate data and they can try to save space in other ways (like maybe not have you download all audio languages, that sort of thing), but 5.5GB / second is sort of beyond what's sustainable for a game with any decent sized worlds.
Super curious to know how much space that ~5 minute demo took up from Epic.
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bumleforce
Member
This developer has talked a lot about next gen since last month. Weather you believe him or not I wish more developers would. Not anonymous developers but people who have to go on record.
RaySoft
Member
Yupp, your right on the money.
Sony set a taget for what was needed to acomplish their vision. They didnt work their asses off to achieve that just for faster load times.
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SleepDoctor
Banned
I'll wait and see before buying anything he says. Just another guy selling you a console. This is the same guy who said the pro could double performance to 8.4 tf. He also said 8tf is all we need for 4k gaming.
Both times he was full of shit.
TearInto5th
Member
These are the only Devs that have come out and said the SSD isn't what matters this gen, but its the CPU. Yet, in the first MS video what were they (devs) most excited for? You guessed it. The SSD! That narrative seems to have changed greatly since the UE5 demo.
Suss as to be honest.
Suss as to be honest.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
I don't understand why anyone thinks games can sustain needing 1.5GB of textures every time the player turns their head though. (5.5 x .27)
Like... it's really cool that it's possible, but if a game absolutely NEEDS to do that.. then a single scene of a few minutes of gameplay is going to need as much data as a medium sized current gen game.
I think it will provide great flexibility; the lack of a need to really care about data load bottlenecks.. and they might be able to push things that MS's moderate SSD speed can't do, but the limit is likely to be the size on disk at that point. Hence what this dev is saying about diminishing returns. It's just math.
EIther way IMO PS5 is going to be the go-to multiplat machine.. because there really should be barely any load times.. at all.. and while XSX will be decent I have a feeling after a while even their decent load times are going to feel last-gen compared to PS5 lol
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Die Namek Ability
Member
And there was a time Bill Gates said "640K is more memory than anyone will ever need on a computer," We dont know what these next gen games will need or not. Both companies decided to invest alot of resources in these capabilities and the industry as a whole have been saying these investments are what will push gaming forward. Why is it so hard to believe that there may in fact be a paradigm shift as Mark Cerny suggests?
MasterCornholio
Member
We had them before which is why it's possible that we may have them again.
Remember when consoles first adapted the CDROM? That changed gaming a ton when they did.
phil_t98
#SonyToo
Also Microsoft would of done their research to on what they need speed wise for SSD so we will see
phil_t98
#SonyToo
I have been saying that for a while, most people are expecting games similar size to what we have now. I asked the question of how much data will we be seeing on screen at anyone time
if we are gonna use 6gb data a secondon screen then that850 gb ssd is gonna full with one game.
loading times will massivly be effected but playing games won’t be much different
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Being able to depend on having a fast SSD is a huge shift in general and an awesome improvement. The question here is whether there are diminishing returns between the more standard NVME in the XSX and the world-beater in the PS5. Next gen games will probably be huge in general even accounting for the cuts they can do for things like not having to duplicate assets; but if you crank up the detail because your SSD is insanely fast that cranks up the size of the files involved, it's just the reality of it.
Honestly it's a monumental achievement either way to pull off a 5.5GB/second particularly inside the cost of a game console. I am expecting some impressive graphical achievments on PS5 that can't be pulled off on XSX because.. well.. it's Sony, it's what they do.. but they can't sustain the kind of detail 5.5gb a second can give you for a large game, it's just simple math. They can massively increase the VARIETY of assets in a given scene, then mix and match those throughout a game to create the appearance of uniqueness and that sort of thing.. but there are only so many assets you can put in a game before it's size becomes unrealistic.
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MasterCornholio
Member
Maybe Sonys system requires a faster SSD for some reason.
But not all research is done the same. It could be possible that ones company's R@D is better than the others.
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IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
In another thread I believe it was estimated 20-25% of Spiderman was duplicated files as one example.
phil_t98
#SonyToo
So how big do you think games will be next gen in GB?
MasterCornholio
Member
Depends on the assets that they use. I know that.spme space will be saved due to the elimination of duplicate data. But the use of 4k or 8k assets could increase the file size.
We have to wait and see what happens though.
phil_t98
#SonyToo
Well lets say 200gb is the norm next gen (which i think will be smaller than this) the SSD in th PS5 will access the whole game in 33 seconds. So where do you think the whole speed of 6gb will be required?
not trolling its an interesting discussion
Bernkastel
Ask me about my fanboy energy!
I have a whole list of devs speaking about XSX if you want that.
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bumleforce
Member
D
Deleted member 775630
Unconfirmed Member
You don't think they can over-engineer stuff? I get they have their vision, but PS3 and the Cell show that Sony can go too far. Not saying that is currently the case, we have to wait for games to actually show us this, but it wouldn't be surprising.
DarkMage619
$MSFT
I just don't see how load times are going to be a reason to buy a game on one platform over another unless you are REALLY pressed for time and those seconds count. I swear some of these comments read like XBOX Series X has a floppy disk drive or something. Unless one platform takes minutes to load and the other seconds I don't think that will mater especially if when the game does load its at a higher resolution with better effects. I'll happily wait a few extra seconds if it means the game will look better.
phil_t98
#SonyToo
The question isn’t about TF as PS5 does that to, the question is how quick do they need to access the data for the game
longdi
Banned
Where did they say SSD dont matter?
Imo too much hype about the SSD speed difference where diminishing returns is a good logical guess to make.
We went from 1.8tf - 10tf(variable) - 12tf(sustained)
And storage from 100mbs - 2.4gbs - 5.5gbs
And storage's slowass random access times - almost instant random access.
can you tell a difference in 2s? count 1-1000, 2-2000. Boom.
RaySoft
Member
The posibilities are there, but when even common people like myself can understand the benefits, it's kinda obvious.
D
Deleted member 775630
Unconfirmed Member
I definitely agree on the possibilities. But the possibilities of the Cell were also amazing back then. The question is more if it's too much, that we'll have to see.
SaucyJack
Member
Exactly, you can either achieve this or you can't. There’s no prize for nearly, not quite loading the assets is going to look shit.
SuperLupeRap
Banned
RaySoft
Member
Difficult to say. That depends if they filled the PS5 bandwidth or not.So you're saying that the XsX can't run that UE5 demo as well as the PS5..
There are always a way to go "around" a problem as well, so it's not like all things are impossible, but it would require more work to archieve something quite similar.
existensmaximum
Member
Yeah, well I feel he's wrong. Time will tell 
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
I find it offensive you are accusing MS of wasting time to go after 12 TFLOPS as if it were too much power instead of settling on 10-11 TFLOPS which would have been good enough
.
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Pallas
Gold Member
I wonder the same, and we won’t really know until we all had to experience it firsthand.
Look I know PS5 is going to be stupidly fast, if it’s everything that it has hyped up to be SSD wise, it’s going to be truly a sight to behold but it’s not like the Xbox Series X is going to be left in the dust. It’s also going to be pretty fast and it remains to be seen just how fast these two consoles will be and what it means for the overall gaming experience aside from faster loading. Diminishing returns could be the case, I’m not going to care if it’s just a couple of seconds of differences between the two. It’s going to be fast for everyone, a lot faster compare to last gen.
Look I know PS5 is going to be stupidly fast, if it’s everything that it has hyped up to be SSD wise, it’s going to be truly a sight to behold but it’s not like the Xbox Series X is going to be left in the dust. It’s also going to be pretty fast and it remains to be seen just how fast these two consoles will be and what it means for the overall gaming experience aside from faster loading. Diminishing returns could be the case, I’m not going to care if it’s just a couple of seconds of differences between the two. It’s going to be fast for everyone, a lot faster compare to last gen.
Pallas
Gold Member
Welcome back by the way!"Diminishing returns"
Snake29
RSI Employee of the Year
This game is in development for ages. Was always multiplatform, but it looks like they needed money for further development.
How i see it with them is that money talks right now, since it's XSX/PC exclusive.
Waiting for Hellpoint Dev to confirm this story.
How i see it with them is that money talks right now, since it's XSX/PC exclusive.
Waiting for Hellpoint Dev to confirm this story.
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Eliciel
Member
I See what he means, conceptually, however, I think that the shortminded dimension of his argument is that diminishing Returns is a very general and therefore vague approximative View that can be applied in basically everything that is trying to push the Limits. Therefore, Deminishing Returns is such a global Perspectiveon boundaries, it's Like saying " You can only run so fast" - yeah, until suddenly Usain Bolt Run 9.54, right?
I think we do Not know limitations, they will Show over time and only experience with the Generation will Show how effective the Core Idea was and whether or Not a mid-generation refresh will be needed even more than ever before.
I think we do Not know limitations, they will Show over time and only experience with the Generation will Show how effective the Core Idea was and whether or Not a mid-generation refresh will be needed even more than ever before.
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geordiemp
Member
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Paracelsus
Member
The GPU is the final bottleneck, if it sucks no other speed can make up for it.
www.eurogamer.net
Face-Off: Ninja Gaiden 2 vs. Sigma 2
How do you turn a game design and engine specifically designed for the architectural strengths of one console, and make…
www.eurogamer.net
Shmunter
Member
It will be interesting how all this plays out. Certainly game sizes need to be managed. But maybe new techniques will become available for merging assets, transforming them, mixing them up, etc. NPC’s mixing wardrobes, house layouts altered, different textures applied, reflective properties changed, etc, etc.
All super high quality, all reused without obvious signed of reuse, Resulting in consistently high detailed scenes regardless.
McCheese
Member
They are right in that the move to SSD only game design is going to make a big impact, but the difference between the xbox and PS5 SSD tech won't be anywhere near as dramatic.
But still, we've yet to see how far people will push this new tech so maybe down the line the better PS5 implementation may start to pay off.
On the flip side Xboxes stronger GPU may end up being what helps them in the long run.
We'll have to wait and see how it pans out, no way this developer knows, nobody does yet.
But still, we've yet to see how far people will push this new tech so maybe down the line the better PS5 implementation may start to pay off.
On the flip side Xboxes stronger GPU may end up being what helps them in the long run.
We'll have to wait and see how it pans out, no way this developer knows, nobody does yet.
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Bernkastel
Ask me about my fanboy energy!
That 2017 build is nothing like the current version of the game, it was meant for last gen.
Scorn Interview: Delving Inside the Xbox Series X Exclusive
We're delving deep inside the Xbox Series X exclusive horror-adventure Scorn. It's a deeply intriguing title that has many inspirations, but what do the devs have to say?
mspoweruser.com
martino
Member
i hope it's the case because i can see a loading opening a door in a corridorThat 2017 build is nothing like the current version of the game, it was meant for last gen.
Scorn Interview: Delving Inside the Xbox Series X Exclusive
We're delving deep inside the Xbox Series X exclusive horror-adventure Scorn. It's a deeply intriguing title that has many inspirations, but what do the devs have to say?mspoweruser.com
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geordiemp
Member
That 2017 build is nothing like the current version of the game, it was meant for last gen.
Scorn Interview: Delving Inside the Xbox Series X Exclusive
We're delving deep inside the Xbox Series X exclusive horror-adventure Scorn. It's a deeply intriguing title that has many inspirations, but what do the devs have to say?mspoweruser.com
Well maybe they know a little bit more than that dolphin game developer lol.
It will be nice when both consoles are fuly revealed and we can hear what more respected devs have to say, getting a bit tired of the non NDA who the fick is that dev never heard of them comments which have no weight....at all.
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Bernkastel
Ask me about my fanboy energy!
[deleted]
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MasterCornholio
Member
So you're saying that the XsX can't run that UE5 demo as well as the PS5..
I only read about Sony and Epic working together to come up with that I/O which is why I said that. I haven't read about any collaboration between Epic and Microsoft on their I/O system.
As for running better I'm not sure about that. Maybe what Epic wanted was for Sony to have a really good I/O system because they wanted to show off some pretty intense asset streaming with their UE5 demo. So maybe when it comes to the I/O system Sonys will be better than what Microsoft has.
But with running if your suggesting framerate and resolution and are not talking about asset streaming then the XSX would probably be better.
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