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[ManaByte]

PS5 And Xbox Series X SSD Difference Is a Matter of “Diminishing Returns,” Says Scorn Dev

gamingbolt.com

“For a system to take the full advantage of the next gen CPU/GPUs, the amount of data needed to be streamed in and out of memory is pretty big,” Peklar explained. “That’s the main reason why both console manufactures went with the SSDs and a specialized I/O approach. This approach was pretty much a necessity. You could, for example, get similar results with average SSD speeds and more memory. You would have to preload more game data into memory, but on the other hand your SSD wouldn’t need to fetch that much data every second. When next-gen engines start to incorporate these kinds of workflows, some new possibilities will open up in theory. Like having an open world game with high fidelity assets found in smaller scale games, or as they said in the Unreal 5 tech demo, movie quality assets.”

“There are two reason why this is not possible on current gen. One is hardware,” he said. “Mechanical drives simply can’t keep up with the amount of data- there’s not enough memory, current CPU/GPU would struggle to compute it all adequately etc. Second is the amount of work/time needed for developers to create all these very high quality assets, for any game size, let alone for a large open world game. I feel that this second problem will stand as a decent obstacle, even with Unreal 5 automatically helping with optimization. And if developers foolishly decide to go for even bigger size maps, and they will, because bigger is always better in their minds, then these open world games will look beautiful at first glance but end up even more copy-pasted and padded with samey content than they are now. And it’s already a sad affair in that regard.”

“I’m positive that down the road, developers will find a way to create experiences that would be impossible to realize on current gen, but that journey starts with interesting concepts that will be organically realized by having these technologies available,” he said. “You shouldn’t design solely from the perspective of technology, as you could end up having peculiar things like a game with all reflective surfaces just so you could show off ray tracing.”

Peklar suggested in conclusion that as far as the difference between the SSDs that both next-gen consoles employe is concerned, it’s effectively not going to seem as big as it seems on paper right now. “As for differences between the two solutions I feel that it will end up a matter of diminishing returns,” he said.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

It’s honestly something I had wondered about. If 16 gigs of ram is still the ceiling for both, each SSD is capable of rapid complete reoccupy, right?

But then UE5 demo analysis/speculation seems to indicate more detailed image via Nanite scaling with SSD speed so I guess we just need to see side by side comparison to find out

 

[jimbojim]

Does he have a PS5 devkit or he just bullshiting like Loiuse Kirby?

 

[NickFire]

Didn't we just have a thread about scorn being an Xbox Series X exclusive? Unless I am mistaken that instantly casts a ton of doubt on this guy's implication that Sony's SSD isn't all that much better. Maybe he'll be right, but this is straight up PR right now for MS if they did an exclusive deal.

 

[sendit]

We don't truly know the extent of how the diff in SSD speed will play out with game development. I believe we will see a better glimpse of what having a SSD + the results of their custom I/O solution means in terms of gaming design with Sony's showing next week.

 

[LordKasual]

I mean even an outsider with no hands-on experience with the tech could settle on this hottake.

Unless you're dealing with a SHITTTTTTTTTTload of data streaming, or the XSX's SSD actually performs significantly less in reality than it does on paper.....the difference isn't likely to be staggering in most general, multiplatform situations.

 

[longdi]

Imo maybe 2-3s of loading differences, im concerned too many have fell into the hype and may end up disappointed in this 'new' i/o gameplay experience.

 

[jakinov]

Imo maybe 2-3s of loading differences, im concerned too many have fell into the hype and may end up disappointed in this 'new' i/o gameplay experience.

its far more interesting than having a bit more extra processing power IMO. A lot of games just lower the resolution To maintain frame rate and so maybe Xbox can keep a higher native resolution on games that do that or maintain XYZ FPS more consistently on certain games That don’t. Stuff that most people probbaly won’t notice. I would argue people notice the 2-3 seconds more than that the there highly dense 4K screen pixels got slightly blurrier or the frame rate had to drop from 60
to 45 for a minute. (I believe there’s studies that show people are getting more and more impatient nowadays and want things more on demand. Plus people notice when their phone OS feels snappier after new phones) Then there’s if developers choose to do more unique things with being able to reliably rely on swapping out a large amount of data from RAM within a second.

The other part of it is that the SSD helps with better througput on certain workloads. There’s a reason it’s “theoretical” performance. You won’t always get it. If In situations the GPU/CPU doesn’t have anything else to do and needs to keep waiting on data you can lead to idling. There are other non SSD related design choices that they made to help also reduce idling.

 

[Bonfires Down]

 

[ZywyPL]

I don't think MS achieved just some random read speed and called it a day, I'm pretty sure they tested/measured how much will be needed, just like they knew they need 6TF to play current games in 4K, or that then need more than 400GB/s RAM to feed 12TF GPU. They should be way more than fine with their SSD solution, whereas Sony will have an overhead for whatever their 1st party studios will come up with.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Didn't we just have a thread about scorn being an Xbox Series X exclusive? Unless I am mistaken that instantly casts a ton of doubt on this guy's implication that Sony's SSD isn't all that much better. Maybe he'll be right, but this is straight up PR right now for MS if they did an exclusive deal.

Good point I seriously doubt he had any hands on with Sonys I/O system.

Developers like Epic would certainly have some experience there. But unfortunately there's NDAs in place that stop them from talking about the competition so we really can't compare the two.

 

[MasterCornholio]

whereas Sony will have an overhead for whatever their 1st party studios will come up with.

Could also be that Sony did the same testing and came to the conclusion that they needed those speeds for next gen based off Epics feedback?

Just seems to me their goals with these systems are pretty different.

 

[phil_t98]

Prob a bit of positive PR from a studio linked with Xbox same as Epic touting the demo on PS5 . Both will say the high points of each console, knowing the other console equally as capable

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Of course it won't mean shit if you don't develop specifically with it in mind, which you would be mad to do if you're making a mutliplatform game.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

I don't think MS achieved just some random read speed and called it a day, I'm pretty sure they tested/measured how much will be needed, just like they knew they need 6TF to play current games in 4K, or that then need more than 400GB/s RAM to feed 12TF GPU. They should be way more than fine with their SSD solution, whereas Sony will have an overhead for whatever their 1st party studios will come up with.

Hopefully we get all the specific details from MS in that August "Hot Chips" conference.

 

[TigerKnee]

Good point I seriously doubt he had any hands on with Sonys I/O system.

Developers like Epic would certainly have some experience there. But unfortunately there's NDAs in place that stop them from talking about the competition so we really can't compare the two.

But do you really need to have hands-on with Sony's I/O system to make a technical assumption? The spec sheet is out there so this developer knows how fast the PS5's I/O is. So it's not like he's completely talking out of his behind.

 

[MasterCornholio]

But do you really need to have hands-on with Sony's I/O system to make a technical assumption?

I guess you don't but not everything is in the spec sheets. But then again maybe the game he's making doesn't need an SSD like that or anything close.

Just guesses

Edit: We don't have long to find out what that SSD can really do.

 

[martino]

Could also be that Sony did the same testing and came to the conclusion that they needed those speeds for next gen based off Epics feedback?

Just seems to me their goals with these systems are pretty different.

Or you can achieve same goal in multiple ways.

 

[DarkMage619]

Of course it won't mean shit if you don't develop specifically with it in mind, which you would be mad to do if you're making a mutliplatform game.

Well the Xbox One X had games that looked better than other consoles and its 3rd party titles were NOT specifically made for it. If the gap with that IO is so wide I fully expect to see the results in the games 3rd party or not. What is the point of having an advantage if you can't see it.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Well the Xbox One X had games that looked better than other consoles and its 3rd party titles were NOT specifically made for it. If the gap with that IO is so wide I fully expect to see the results in the games 3rd party or not. What is the point of having an advantage if you can't see it.

I should have clarified. We'll surely see faster loading times and *perhaps* less pop-in of assets, but that's about the extent I would expect from 3rd party games. It's unlikely they are going to do much optimization work or modify how they build their multiplatform games to account for it, so most benefits will just be from the virtue of its enhanced speed and what that automatically affects.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Or you can achieve same goal in multiple ways.

I hardly doubt that both I/O systems perform the same and the other hardware is a bit different. So I don't see how the results will be the same.

What mean is that both systems have different design philosophies behind them. Which is why we have these differences in the hardware. In the end they will have their strengths and weaknesses. Sony chose to focus on a narrow and fast GPU with a super fast I/O system. Microsoft chose to go with a slow and wide approach with a good I/O system. Both will yield different results when it comes to gaming.

That's why I believe their goals are different.

 

[SleepDoctor]

Prob a bit of positive PR from a studio linked with Xbox same as Epic touting the demo on PS5 . Both will say the high points of each console, knowing the other console equally as capable

Pretty much the same shit as the Quantum error devs. Two insignificant developers talking a hell of a lot before their games are lost in the unveiling of the true AAA next gen games.

 

[martino]

I hardly doubt that both I/O systems perform the same and the other hardware is a bit different. So I don't see how the results will be the same.

What mean is that both systems have different design philosophies behind them. Which is why we have these differences in the hardware. In the end they will have their strengths and weaknesses. Sony chose to focus on a narrow and fast GPU with a super fast I/O system. Microsoft chose to go with a slow and wide approach with a good I/O system. Both will yield different results when it comes to gaming.

That's why I believe their goals are different.

I Will wait for more details to be as sure as you are.

 

[martino]

Well the Xbox One X had games that looked better than other consoles and its 3rd party titles were NOT specifically made for it. If the gap with that IO is so wide I fully expect to see the results in the games 3rd party or not. What is the point of having an advantage if you can't see it.

See is the keyword here.
Let's wait to see it if it can be seen

 

[DarkMage619]

I hardly doubt that both I/O systems perform the same and the other hardware is a bit different. So I don't see how the results will be the same.

What mean is that both systems have different design philosophies behind them. Which is why we have these differences in the hardware. In the end they will have their strengths and weaknesses. Sony chose to focus on a narrow and fast GPU with a super fast I/O system. Microsoft chose to go with a slow and wide approach with a good I/O system. Both will yield different results when it comes to gaming.

That's why I believe their goals are different.

I thought they had the same goal of having great console games for the masses. What do you think their ultimate goals are?

I should have clarified. We'll surely see faster loading times and *perhaps* less pop-in of assets, but that's about the extent I would expect from 3rd party games. It's unlikely they are going to do much optimization work or modify how they build their multiplatform games to account for it, so most benefits will just be from the virtue of its enhanced speed and what that automatically affects.

Do you think that will be the only difference or can you see a scenario where the XBOX's advantages can also be seen on screen? How much faster should a PS5 game load for it to be a big deal?

 

[MasterCornholio]

I Will wait for more details to be as sure as you are.

Its pretty obvious that both systems are different. How different in practice is the real question.

Of this I'm sure.

 

[MasterCornholio]

I thought they had the same goal of having great console games for the masses. What do you think their ultimate goals are?


Do you think that will be the only difference or can you see a scenario where the XBOX's advantages can also be seen on screen? How much faster should a PS5 game load for it to be a big deal?

It's not the loading but the quality of the assets that people are questioning.

Everybody knows that the PS5 will load games faster. But how many know what the difference in asset quality will be?

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

See is the keyword here.
Let's wait to see it if it can be seen

If differences stemming from the storage bandwidth differential can be seen, they should show up in Nanite tech from UE5, right? We just need head to head comparisons when games utilizing it come out?

 

[martino]

Its pretty obvious that both systems are different. How different in practice is the real question.

Of this I'm sure.

That is totally different claim and i agree here.

 

[MasterCornholio]

I thought they had the same goal of having great console games for the masses. What do you think their ultimate goals are?

I was talking about the goals with the hardware in particular. Like if one is targeting native 4K while the other wants a better I/O system in their games.

Also while they have the same goal of making a console and providing games, the end results are what matter.

 

[martino]

If differences stemming from the storage bandwidth differential can be seen, they should show up in Nanite tech from UE5, right? We just need head to head comparisons when games utilizing it come out?

Yeah hidding things is not a good thing for it to be positive imo.
At the same this claim from a dev with ms deal is suspicions the other way.
Real data is Best data in the end.

 

[MasterCornholio]

That is totally different claim and i agree here.

They did have different design philosophies which lead to the differences in hardware that you're seeing.

I don't see how that's a different claim.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Real data is Best data in the end.

Pretty much which is why I like video comparisons so much.

 

[martino]

They did have different design philosophies which lead to the differences in hardware that you're seeing.

I don't see how that's a different claim.

Because it don't neccessary translate in difference for software can do in the end

 

[MasterCornholio]

Because it don't neccessary translate in difference for software can do in the end

It translate to how the software functions though. And there's certain software features that might not be possible on weaker/slower hardware.

I'm still struggling to understand what your trying to tell me.

 

[martino]

It translate to how the software functions though. And there's certain software features that might not be possible on weaker/slower hardware.

I'm still struggling to understand what your trying to tell me.

For someone loving data you're assuming extreme scenarios already here

 

[MasterCornholio]

For someone loving data you're assuming extreme scenarios already here

Well new tech gets developed all the time and sometimes it requires superior hardware to function properly dud to how intensive it is.

 

[martino]

Well new tech gets developed all the time and sometimes it requires superior hardware to function properly dud to how intensive it is.

This don't tell us where we will sit here.
Not possible or diminish returns ?
Outside pr safe bet is somewhere in the middle.

 

[MasterCornholio]

This don't tell us where we will sit here.
Not possible or diminish returns ?
Outside pr safe bet is somewhere in the middle.

I think there's diminished returns where resolution is concerned. So maybe the same can happen with the I/O.

I guess we will see our answers about that next week to see if this developer is correct or not.

 

[Die Namek Ability]

Prob a bit of positive PR from a studio linked with Xbox same as Epic touting the demo on PS5 . Both will say the high points of each console, knowing the other console equally as capable

Except one is developing exclusive software the other is a 3rd party game engine.

 

[Redlight]

...maybe the game he's making doesn't need an SSD like that or anything close.

Maybe very few games will.

 

[RaySoft]

“For a system to take the full advantage of the next gen CPU/GPUs, the amount of data needed to be streamed in and out of memory is pretty big,” Peklar explained. “That’s the main reason why both console manufactures went with the SSDs and a specialized I/O approach. This approach was pretty much a necessity. You could, for example, get similar results with average SSD speeds and more memory. You would have to preload more game data into memory, but on the other hand your SSD wouldn’t need to fetch that much data every second. When next-gen engines start to incorporate these kinds of workflows, some new possibilities will open up in theory. Like having an open world game with high fidelity assets found in smaller scale games, or as they said in the Unreal 5 tech demo, movie quality assets.”

Hmmm sounds like an awfull like what I have said earlier..... hmmm

Edit: How can I find my older comments?

 

[MasterCornholio]

Maybe very few games will.

Well they are not going to make the game unplayable on slower HDDs so there's that.

 

[RaySoft]

Well they are not going to make the game unplayable on slower HDDs so there's that.

Scorn will NOT require an SSD. His comment were on the future, not on his/their game. (They started work on that game many years ago)

 

[Jimmyisback]

As I suspected.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Scorn will NOT require an SSD. His comment were on the future, not on his/their game. (They started work on that game many years ago)

I don't think Sony would waste funds on something that isn't going to matter. So some developers will definitely take advantage of it.

As for diminishing returns we have to wait and see if that's true.

 

[RaySoft]

This don't tell us where we will sit here.
Not possible or diminish returns ?
Outside pr safe bet is somewhere in the middle.

The point is that sometimes a tech comes along that completely changes the ways you do things. "diminishing returns" only applies if you just update and don't innovate

 

[RaySoft]

I don't think Sony would waste funds on something that isn't going to matter. So some developers will definitely take advantage of it.

As for diminishing returns we have to wait and see if that's true.

I can assure you, thay already have.... 4 june

 

[MasterCornholio]

"diminish returns" only applies if you just update and don't innovate

Seems like Sony made some innovations with their I/O system. So maybe diminished returns doesn't apply here.

 

[MasterCornholio]

I can assure you, thay already have.... 4 june

I know and I'm pretty sure they won't hesitate to demonstrate the capabilities of their I/O.