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[LordOfChaos]

Where should the additional power go, if not resolution, frame-rate and RT?

Keep in mind, the games still need to run on the OG PS5.

Being able to do 4K, RT, and 60fps all in one instead of making big sacrifices to one of them for one

There's always more lighting and texture work to be done even at 4K, it's not like we're at photorealism at 4K yet. 8K would be a waste to try to do on consoles any time soon.

 

[Urban]

thats why most of the games have a uncapped mode. This will run the games on constant 60fps

 

[Rat Rage]

Where should the additional power go, if not resolution, frame-rate and RT?

Keep in mind, the games still need to run on the OG PS5.

Today, Games don't need additional power. They need better ideas, better programming, less focus on marketing trends and a lot more artistic passion.
Instead on wasting development resources on additional hardware power, make the hardware and games less expensive.

In the gaming industry, hardware power has already outgrown the artistic needs of 90% developers. It's not like in the 80 or 90 where you've possibly been restricted by hardware power and couldn't achive your vision - today it's actually the opposite: too much hardware power is actually restricting developers.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

Tom has a damn good source at PS when it comes to hardware

If so and taking what he says seriously...

The Xbox Series X has 56 CU's, so that means nothing without a clock speed to slap on. I doubt they can make a GPU as big as a Xbox Series X and maintain the clocks they're pulling on the PS5 without making cooling more extravagant and adding a fan. bigger chips are "wider", wider means less MHz possible because heat will increase a lot. This is a crux even Apple is facing with their M2 Ultra chips and lowest node available to men.

No. There is already a 520mm2 GPU on a 7nm process with 40WGs running at clocks higher than that in the PS5. (6950XT). ANd even higher costs and more WGs on a 5nm process if we go into 7900XT territory.

On a 5nm process, the PS5pro having only 30 active WGs is actually a downgrade from what they should realistically be able to do.

This is also different than the approach they took with the PS4 pro, where they doubled the chip from 18 to 36 CU's, PS5 is 36 CU's, for coherency sake and because they liked to turn half the CU's off on PS4 Pro to ensure perfect retrocompatibility with PS4 (and I don't think PS5 being 36 CU's as well is a coincidence), I'd wager 72 CU's should be more likely.

There really s no reason why Sony would have to keep double its CU count to maintain compatibility. That can be sorted out with a better-designed tool kit. I personally have never believed that whole double CU count to maintain compatibility thing. It can be abstracted.

18000 MT/s a useless metric without the ram bit-width interface and/or number of chips. But considering 256 bit bandwidth, it's not a massive increase. 448 GB/s to 576 GB/s. I can see them going for 384 bit (12 chips instead of 8) and 18 GB of RAM, in order to hit 864 GB/s. I don't believe they could go for 24 GB of installed RAM and 16 GB is not possible with this configuration.

I don't see them doing anything with the RAM outside using faster chips. I can see them increasing the cache within the chip though. A PS5pro with 64MB of infinity cache on the chip would do more, and be cheaper for them than going for 24GB of RAM and a 384bit bus (which is what you would be getting if you are using 12 chips instead of 8 as hitting any other number would require they adopt the convoluted memory system of the Xbox.

Don't forget, whatever this console is, it's going to peak at 120fps on ONE screen. More realistically that could translate to 2160p ish at 60fps and 1080p-1440pish at `up to 120fps`. You don't need a lot of bandwidth to accommodate that.

 

[bitbydeath]

Being able to do 4K, RT, and 60fps all in one instead of making big sacrifices to one of them for one

There's always more lighting and texture work to be done even at 4K, it's not like we're at photorealism at 4K yet. 8K would be a waste to try to do on consoles any time soon.

I believe that’s all still targeted, going by the OP. 8K as an option won’t diminish 4K, it’ll likely improve it further. Remember when the Unreal demo showed 8K textures in 1440P res?

Devs making 8K textures for the 8K mode should have some 8K benefits flow down to 4K users.

 

[bitbydeath]

Today, Games don't need additional power. They need better ideas, better programming, less focus on marketing trends and a lot more artistic passion.
Instead on wasting development resources on additional hardware power, make the hardware and games less expensive.

In the gaming industry, hardware power has already outgrown the artistic needs of 90% developers. It's not like in the 80 or 90 where you've possibly been restricted by hardware power and couldn't achive your vision - today it's actually the opposite: too much hardware power is actually restricting developers.

While I agree, new hardware won’t impact that situation one way or the other.

 

[FullMetalx117]

Day one for sure

 

[Bry0]

On a 5nm process, the PS5pro having only 30 active WGs is actually a downgrade from what they should realistically be able to do.

From a cost/power/heat perspective it makes sense to do what they are supposedly doing I think.

Agreed about the BC too, seems like a software dev tools issue considering how bc worked on the one x.

Great post. I think you know your stuff.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

the image says "pro slim" for the slim model.

that makes it sounds like it's a slim version of the faster pro model.

sony isnt that stupid.

My bad read too fast and didn't see the pro slim in all honesty and yeah that doesn't make any sense

 

[Crispy Gamer]

Would love for one of those demos to leak

 

[RoadHazard]

Nope. This is 1.6x more powerful which the PS4 Pro was 2.3x more powerful. The PS4 pro also had IPC gains over the base PS4 thanks to the polaris architecture. No such IPC gains when going from RDNA 2 to RDNA 3. So the PS4 Pro had a 2.8x leap while the PS5 Pro is going to need a miracle (2.55ghz) just to hit 20 tflops or 2x.

Since they are targeting November 2024, its possible this is based on RDNA 4 and maybe that arch has an IPC increase like the Polaris IPC increase.

Yeah, but this time they're not gonna waste all the extra power on higher resolutions. I hope. The 8K talk is bullshit, that's 4x the pixels over 4K, which the PS5 can't even do 97% of the time lol.

But maybe we can get something like 1800p60 with RT on this thing, where the PS5 does 1080-1440p without RT to hit 60. I'd be cool with that.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

Would love for one of those demos to leak

Leaks will pick up once more 3rd parties get the units

 

[Thirty7ven]

“Devs already target lower end specs on PC, *console A* will be just fine*

Vs

“What’s the point? How will devs take advantage of this? BAD”

 

[ToTTenTranz]

Tom has a damn good source at PS when it comes to hardware

If so and taking what he says seriously...

The Xbox Series X has 56 CU's, so that means nothing without a clock speed to slap on. I doubt they can make a GPU as big as a Xbox Series X and maintain the clocks they're pulling on the PS5 without making cooling more extravagant and adding a fan. bigger chips are "wider", wider means less MHz possible because heat will increase a lot. This is a crux even Apple is facing with their M2 Ultra chips and lowest node available to men.

This assumes the launch PS5 and the PS5 Pro SoCs would use the same process node, and they obviously won't.
The PS5 Pro will be N3 or N4, at least the CPU+GCD portion of it, if it's chiplet based.

This is also different than the approach they took with the PS4 pro, where they doubled the chip from 18 to 36 CU's, PS5 is 36 CU's, for coherency sake and because they liked to turn half the CU's off on PS4 Pro to ensure perfect retrocompatibility with PS4 (and I don't think PS5 being 36 CU's as well is a coincidence), I'd wager 72 CU's should be more likely.

The "butterfly arrangement" of the PS4 Pro was less than ideal. The chip had more pixel fillrate than its memory bandwidth could ever allow utilizing, i.e. a bunch of transistors / die area dedicated to ROPs that never got any utilization.
It was probably necessary because the earlier SDKs were made for close-to-metal optimizations and without any scaling options for more hardware resources.
I find it hard to believe the PS5 architecture and SDKs weren't designed for scalability from the start.
Also, if it's 30 WGPs then there's no room for more than 60 CUs.

18000 MT/s a useless metric without the ram bit-width interface and/or number of chips. But considering 256 bit bandwidth, it's not a massive increase. 448 GB/s to 576 GB/s. I can see them going for 384 bit (12 chips instead of 8) and 18 GB of RAM, in order to hit 864 GB/s. I don't believe they could go for 24 GB of installed RAM and 16 GB is not possible with this configuration.

Infinity Cache is also an option, especially if it uses MCDs. It's more believable than Sony going wider than 256bit RAM, which they've now adopted for almost 20 years in their home consoles.

 

[RoadHazard]

How is can it be 56 when the report said 30 WGP? 1 WGP = 2 CU so that means 60 active.

60 is the full die probably, like how the PS5 has 40 with 4 disabled. I don't think it will be 56 enabled though, I think it will be 54 to get an even 1.5x relationship (to have PS5 mode be 2/3 of the CUs active and PS5 Pro mode the full thing). Which would mean 3 WGPs/6 CUs disabled.

 

[Darchaos]

Bring it on, even though i sit on a thic and old original PS5.

 

[Mobilemofo]

2024 - 2020 = ?
try again, you can do it

Aww, you've got your cocky tude on...bless. do you feel good now? There's a good lad.

 

[MisterXDTV]

My bad read too fast and didn't see the pro slim in all honesty and yeah that doesn't make any sense

The picture is just a fake mockup

There are 2 hardware coming

- PS5 revision with detachable/optional disc drive (late 2023)
- PS5 Pro (i guess with the same detachable/optional disc drive) (late 2024)

The word SLIM was never used by Henderson. I don't even think they can make it THAT much slimmer

 

[XesqueVara]

This assumes the launch PS5 and the PS5 Pro SoCs would use the same process node, and they obviously won't.
The PS5 Pro will be N3 or N4, at least the CPU+GCD portion of it, if it's chiplet based.



The "butterfly arrangement" of the PS4 Pro was less than ideal. The chip had more pixel fillrate than its memory bandwidth could ever allow utilizing, i.e. a bunch of transistors / die area dedicated to ROPs that never got any utilization.
It was probably necessary because the earlier SDKs were made for close-to-metal optimizations and without any scaling options for more hardware resources.
I find it hard to believe the PS5 architecture and SDKs weren't designed for scalability from the start.
Also, if it's 30 WGPs then there's no room for more than 60 CUs.




Infinity Cache is also an option, especially if it uses MCDs. It's more believable than Sony going wider than 256bit RAM, which they've now adopted for almost 20 years in their home consoles.

Chiplets on Consoles don't make sense, you want everything in a SOC(system on a chip).

 

[IDKFA]

YES!!!!!!

Give me 8K, 120FPS and Ray Tracing that I'd find on a 4090. Plus I want at least a 2TB SSD.

Do that and it's day one!

 

[RoadHazard]

YES!!!!!!

Give me 8K, 120FPS and Ray Tracing that I'd find on a 4090. Plus I want at least a 2TB SSD.

Do that and it's day one!

You can maybe get two of those things at once (where one is the 2TB SSD), definitely not all of them lol.

 

[Venom Snake]

Alex Battaglia when this beast drops...

 

[Sleepwalker]

Wouldnt pay too much mind to the 8k moniker, its already on the PS5 box but never used. Interested in getting better frames at 4k mostly.

 

[Bernoulli]

Well, that 18,000 mts is 18 GT/s which is around 30% faster than the memory chips used in the OG PS5 (e.g 14 GT/s GDDR6 modules.)

I made a post here about the new GDDR7 Samsung memory modules, but I guess those will be used in the PS6: https://www.neogaf.com/threads/excl...ould-release-late-2024.1654149/post-268203573

It will use RDNA 3 and RDNA 4 features

 

[ToTTenTranz]

Chiplets on Consoles don't make sense, you want everything in a SOC(system on a chip).

We're already getting chiplets on sub-$450 graphics cards. This Pro console is most probably going to cost over $600.
The chiplets exist to decrease the production costs of chips built on high demand, top-end nodes. This is a plausible use for chiplets.

 

[SlimySnake]

I was looking at the thermals on this 11.8 RDNA2 tflops 32 CU 7600 that is supposed to replace the 10.7 tflops 32 CU 6600xt, and its around 180 Watts. Are we sure this thing is on a 5nm chip? that is extremely high for an 11 tflops chip.

I also didnt see any major RT gains between the two GPUs beyond the 10% gain in tflops due. Cyberpunk has the biggest gap but the rest of the RT games were mostly identical. Whatever RT IPC gains they are talking about didnt really come to this GPU.

 

[Imtjnotu]

Day 1 daddy Jim

 

[Investor9872]

Still waiting on that Switch Pro. Any year now.

It's coming. But it will be called the Nintendo Switch 2 though!

 

[Tams]

No. There is already a 520mm2 GPU on a 7nm process with 40WGs running at clocks higher than that in the PS5. (6950XT). ANd even higher costs and more WGs on a 5nm process if we go into 7900XT territory.

On a 5nm process, the PS5pro having only 30 active WGs is actually a downgrade from what they should realistically be able to do.

There really s no reason why Sony would have to keep double its CU count to maintain compatibility. That can be sorted out with a better-designed tool kit. I personally have never believed that whole double CU count to maintain compatibility thing. It can be abstracted.

I don't see them doing anything with the RAM outside using faster chips. I can see them increasing the cache within the chip though. A PS5pro with 64MB of infinity cache on the chip would do more, and be cheaper for them than going for 24GB of RAM and a 384bit bus (which is what you would be getting if you are using 12 chips instead of 8 as hitting any other number would require they adopt the convoluted memory system of the Xbox.

Don't forget, whatever this console is, it's going to peak at 120fps on ONE screen. More realistically that could translate to 2160p ish at 60fps and 1080p-1440pish at `up to 120fps`. You don't need a lot of bandwidth to accommodate that.

Get outta here with your sense!

16k 240fps!!! Woot, Woot, BABY!1!

 

[CrustyBritches]

M MisterXDTV You should add a poll to see what percentage of people would upgrade. I think I'll just stick with my digital edition and use the money towards a PC upgrade or a Steam Deck 2.

 

[diffusionx]

RDNA introduced the "workgroup processor" ("WGP"). The WGP replaces the compute unit as the basic unit of shader computation hardware/computing. One WGP encompasses 2 CUs. This allows significantly more compute power and memory bandwidth to be directed at a single workgroup. In RDNA, 1 CU is one half of a WGP.

so the PS5 pro has 60 CU big jump from the PS5 36

Still not enough to do acceptable RT at the resolution, frame rate, and fidelity people expect.

 

[XesqueVara]

We're already getting chiplets on sub-$450 graphics cards. This Pro console is most probably going to cost over $600.
The chiplets exist to decrease the production costs of chips built on high demand, top-end nodes. This is a plausible use for chiplets.

Problem here is does Tsmc have the Capacity for it? RDNA3 uses 2.5D fanouts for it Packaging and these things are limited by capacity.
In GPUs AMD decoupled the SRAM off the Main Chip because it stopped scaling well after 7nm, so they could made the Main Chip the most dense as possible to Save Area.

 

[Bry0]

I was looking at the thermals on this 11.8 RDNA2 tflops 32 CU 7600 that is supposed to replace the 10.7 tflops 32 CU 6600xt, and its around 180 Watts. Are we sure this thing is on a 5nm chip? that is extremely high for an 11 tflops chip.

I also didnt see any major RT gains between the two GPUs beyond the 10% gain in tflops due. Cyberpunk has the biggest gap but the rest of the RT games were mostly identical. Whatever RT IPC gains they are talking about didnt really come to this GPU.

The 7600 is on 6nm not 5. RT on rdna 3 is part of the cu, so the gain in rt is the same as the gain in cu IPC. That’s why the 7900xtx still has crappy RT, most of the gain in rt is because it has more cus, not because they are THAT much faster at rt individually. IPC gain on rdna 3 was honestly really disappointing. It’s possible that could be improved further for this ps5 pro but nobody can really say for sure until we know more.

 

[ToTTenTranz]

I was looking at the thermals on this 11.8 RDNA2 tflops 32 CU 7600 that is supposed to replace the 10.7 tflops 32 CU 6600xt, and its around 180 Watts. Are we sure this thing is on a 5nm chip? that is extremely high for an 11 tflops chip.

I also didnt see any major RT gains between the two GPUs beyond the 10% gain in tflops due. Cyberpunk has the biggest gap but the rest of the RT games were mostly identical. Whatever RT IPC gains they are talking about didnt really come to this GPU.

Kepler is assuming RDNA4's RT engines, not RDNA3's.
Regardless, RT still doesn't need to be the PS5's focus. Perhaps it would make more sense to make this a console super optimized for Nanite and Compute-based Lumen, as UE5 is bound to completely dominate the AAA market for the next 4-5 years.

Alex Battaglia and Nvidia fans playing Cyberpunk Super Duper Ultra Raytracing mode aren't the PS5 Pro's target market. Those will always use PCs with the current year's $1800 geforce, they were never going to buy the PS5 Pro.

 

[diffusionx]

Being able to do 4K, RT, and 60fps all in one instead of making big sacrifices to one of them for one

There's always more lighting and texture work to be done even at 4K, it's not like we're at photorealism at 4K yet. 8K would be a waste to try to do on consoles any time soon.

People with 4090 GPUs aren’t running games at 4K/RT/60fps. You need to turn on DLSS to get it. This article was posted before even more demanding games came out. And nobody thinks that a PS5 Pro will be as powerful as a 4090.

Nvidia GeForce RTX 4090 Review: Queen of the Castle

Ada Lovelace delivers the goods, at a steep price.

www.tomshardware.com

 

[MisterXDTV]

M MisterXDTV You should add a poll to see what percentage of people would upgrade. I think I'll just stick with my digital edition and use the money towards a PC upgrade or a Steam Deck 2.

I created the poll

 

[0neAnd0nly]

Mass populace barely able to find your console until the last 6 - 9 months.

Barely ANY games exclusive to this "new gen", most are old gen games upscaled.

Bring out new, powerful console and charge more for consumers while leaving your current consumers with a now gimped version, that you didn't even get close to actually realizing or utilizing the power of.

Really LOVING what the industry has become over the last decade! Truly!

 

[8BiTw0LF]

 

[Chronicle]

Like my ps5 this will make my ps4 games even better!

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

Mass populace barely able to find your console until the last 6 - 9 months.

Barely ANY games exclusive to this "new gen", most are old gen games upscaled.

Bring out new, powerful console and charge more for consumers while leaving your current consumers with a now gimped version, that you didn't even get close to actually realizing or utilizing the power of.

Really LOVING what the industry has become over the last decade! Truly!

 

[Monkfish877]

What's the point when they're not even pushing the base ps5 console graphically. I mean look at that spiderman gameplay, looked like a souped up ps4 game, wasn't impressed at all by the visuals.

 

[Bry0]

What's the point when they're not even pushing the base ps5 console graphically. I mean look at that spiderman gameplay, looked like a souped up ps4 game, wasn't impressed at all by the visuals.

Honestly I think that’s more a factor of diminishing returns than the consoles not being pushed.

 

[ToTTenTranz]

Problem here is does Tsmc have the Capacity for it? RDNA3 uses 2.5D fanouts for it Packaging and these things are limited by capacity.
In GPUs AMD decoupled the SRAM off the Main Chip because it stopped scaling well after 7nm, so they could made the Main Chip the most dense as possible to Save Area.

I've never heard of the RDNA3 fanouts posing a capacity / scale problem. I also don't know if we're sure of the PS5 Pro using the same packaging as RDNA3.

 

[Johnny Concrete]

Claiming any game can run at 4K/60 is just horseshit.
There will always be outliers that don’t make that. It’s not just up to power either, if a game dev optimises poorly than nothing can run it at that rate or resolution.

I call it now: we will never see a PS5 pro.

The price would be insane and there’s no market for it.

 

[SolidQ]

Kepler is assuming RDNA4's RT engines, not RDNA3's.

Sony patent was Accelerated RT and AMD patent month ago was Traversal RT engine. That why assuming RDNA4 RT

 

[demigod]

Pic of Viola

Spoiler

 

[TheRedRiders]

Corroborated by Tom Henderson.

 

[mdkirby]

I hope this time the driverless version is more readily available. Still annoyed I ended up with the version that looks pregnant all for a disc drive I’ve literally never used.

 

[Kilau]

After PS4 Jet engine, I’m for sure waiting to get impressions on sound.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

The price would be insane and there’s no market for it.

People will buy it and its not targeting the casual, 21 voters in here and 62% say for sure