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[Rykan]

You keep calling it a high end game.......it's not. By the way, if star citizen ever actually sees a full normal release, I'll change my name to Star Duck.

Yes it is.

"We" don't have to conclude anything. You can choose to conclude whatever you want, even if it's massively wrong.

You've claimed that I've said something that I haven't. You've either misinterpreted or misread what I've said, or you've misrepresented it. There's no other options here.

Saying that any pc game that doesn't run really well on 1060 wasn't meant for it is pointless.
The fact is these games are being made to run on these lower systems and they are being played. Just because you think it's not good enough doesn't mean anything.

If a game cannot run on the lowest settings and reach a somewhat stable 30 fps, then the game clearly wasn't designed to give a good or even acceptable gameplay experience in mind. Just because it can "technically" run it doesn't mean that this card was its primary audience.

noone forces developers to make a Series S game run at 1440p60fps either.
a Series S game can run at 900p or below and at 30fps and it will be fine. it's the budget system.
hell with FSR2 they might even get away with 720p... I once for the lulz ran Cyberpunk on my TV with DLSS Ultra Performance, which means the game ran at 720p, and it looks absolutely fine

the fact that your super high end game example still runs on a 1060 shows that downporting to Series S is not an issue whatsoever.

That falls under the assumption that the bottleneck is the GPU.

 

[01011001]

That falls under the assumption that the bottleneck is the GPU.

it will be the GPU, if it's the CPU then the other consoles are fucked too, and if it's memory size or bandwidth then some newer PC cards will be in trouble as well, FSR2 also should reduce VRAM usage and counter that issue as well

 

[CircleOfFire]

If all developers just do the absolute shoddiest job of porting it to Series S, then everyone will understand that it's not their fault...

 

[vaibhavpisal]

If all developers just do the absolute shoddiest job of porting it to Series S, then everyone will understand that it's not their fault...

Hasn't happened yet. So?

It's been 2 yrs since launch.

 

[Tiago Rodrigues]

Hasn't happened yet. So?

It's been 2 yrs since launch.

Exactly...it's been ONLY 2 years since launch. Series S has barely had any fully next gen game yet.

 

[CircleOfFire]

Hasn't happened yet. So?

It's been 2 yrs since launch.

What? I'm suggesting the above as a route out of the situation.

 

[anthony2690]

How has this thread got nearly 1k comments?

It was a comment by a guy who made I am fish, that he deleted very quickly, as he probably realised how silly it sounds coming from him, especially compared other games.

 

[vaibhavpisal]

Exactly...it's been ONLY 2 years since launch. Series S has barely had any fully next gen game yet.

There are some. But it's firmly in next gen era now.

What? I'm suggesting the above as a route out of the situation.

Doubt Dev's would aim that low.

 

[Gudji]

"A cancelled console can eventually be a good decision, but bad hardware is forever bad"

- Miyamoto (2022)

Don't kill me.

 

[FrankieSab]

How has this thread got nearly 1k comments?

It was a comment by a guy who made I am fish, that he deleted very quickly, as he probably realised how silly it sounds coming from him, especially compared other games.

Because it's trendy for certain fanboy to sh_t over Series S.

 

[Trazyn the Infinite]

Because it's trendy for certain fanboy to sh_t over Series S.

No. Even self-respecting Xbox fans shit on the Series S.

 

[FrankieSab]

No. Even self-respecting Xbox fans shit on the Series S.

I said certain fanboys and did not named them, they will recognize themselves. Sure Arkam knights is 30 because of Series S...!

 

[Crayon]

I'd imagine more of the griping is about wasting time than the actual baseline being held down, though that is an issure too. On pc the user gets a big list of settings to dick around with. For consoles, you have to put in time getting settings right so you aren't leaving too much performance on the table. Getting the ps5 and xsx dialed is on the easier side because they are practically the same shit. But then you have to go back and put it a larger effort to polish the turd when deadlines are already tight.

 

[FrankieSab]

I'd imagine more of the griping is about wasting time than the actual baseline being held down, though that is an issure too. On pc the user gets a big list of settings to dick around with. For consoles, you have to put in time getting settings right so you aren't leaving too much performance on the table. Getting the ps5 and xsx dialed is on the easier side because they are practically the same shit. But then you have to go back and put it a larger effort to polish the turd when deadlines are already tight.

You know that PS5 and Series console are not using the same development tool and not the same API, but series consoles do. So what you are saying doesn't make any sense at all. They can basically use the same development tool for PC also, only for PS5 they need to almost port the whole thing.

 

[FrankieSab]

Sorry, double post.

 

[Crayon]

You know that PS5 and Series console are not using the same development tool and not the same API, but series consoles do. So what you are saying doesn't make any sense at all. They can basically use the same development tool for PC also, only for PS5 they need to almost port the whole thing.

I'm talking about things that are done in the engine. You know how digital foundry tries to figure out what the equivalent settings a console and a pc version would be? The xsx and PS5 are very similar while there is auch greater delta to the xss.

 

[FrankieSab]

I'm talking about things that are done in the engine. You know how digital foundry tries to figure out what the equivalent settings a console and a pc version would be? The xsx and PS5 are very similar while there is auch greater delta to the xss.

You cannot take only a small part of the development cycle that fits your narrative. Both the Series use lots of common codes and assets, so Series S is not that much a burden that lots of people seem to push.

 

[Crayon]

You cannot take only a small part of the development cycle that fits your narrative. Both the Series use lots of common codes and assets, so Series S is not that much a burden that lots of people seem to push.

You're not saying anything.

 

[Paperclip Killa]

You cannot take only a small part of the development cycle that fits your narrative. Both the Series use lots of common codes and assets, so Series S is not that much a burden that lots of people seem to push.

I've read this 5 times and I still don't know what this says.

 

[FrankieSab]

I've read this 5 times and I still don't know what this says.

Development cycle has many steps, optimization is only a small part. The other steps are much easier between Series consoles since they share same development tools. What's complicated to understand?

 

[Kataploom]

You cannot take only a small part of the development cycle that fits your narrative. Both the Series use lots of common codes and assets, so Series S is not that much a burden that lots of people seem to push.

Not even that, they use the same exact code save for some modifications only if the devs want to for the series S after the X version of done, literally the same, they even cannot work on the series S without having a Series X version first because that's the base for it

 

[Rien]

Is this Fletch guy a dev?

He created I am Fletch

 

[mckmas8808]

Tweets deleted.
Print sceen of them:

Ian Maclure, VFX Artist for Bossa Studios has admitted that this is happening more and more, specially as games are going to be more and more next-gen only.

Will Series S hold back multiplatform games? How can this issue even be sorted out?

We told you!

 

[Phil_the_goat]

wow people are still talking about the made up problem

 

[Three]

noone forces developers to make a Series S game run at 1440p60fps either.
a Series S game can run at 900p or below and at 30fps and it will be fine. it's the budget system.
hell with FSR2 they might even get away with 720p... I once for the lulz ran Cyberpunk on my TV with DLSS Ultra Performance, which means the game ran at 720p, and it looks absolutely fine

the fact that your super high end game example still runs on a 1060 shows that downporting to Series S is not an issue whatsoever.

if you want to make money, you better make sure your game runs on a GTX1060, and therefore a big AAA developer is forced to target a PC on that level if they want to maximize profits.

Cyberpunk is designed to even run on a PS4 and XB1.

The GTX1060 can have up to 6GB of VRAM though.

Look at the minimum requirements for something like Ghostwire Tokyo

Processor (CPU): AMD Ryzen 5-2600/ Intel Core i7-4770K.
Graphics (GPU): AMD Radeon RX 5500 XT/ Nvidia GeForce GTX 1060.
RAM: 12GB.
VRAM: 6GB.
Resolution: 1,280x720 pixels at 30fps.

That's for 720p30fps. Even though the 10GB for Series S is different the minimum ram requirements may exceed the Series S at low res even if GPU min spec is still a GTX1060. That's not to say it can't run on a Series S but it would require a lot more work.

 

[Sid Of Bee]

I'm interested what the Series S can't do at 1080p that is achieved by the Series X or PS5 at 4k. What is the issue or bottleneck?

I mean, seeing what's been done on the Switch has shown me that the base game can always be ported if downgraded enough. PS4 to Switch is a bigger gap.... I don't think the gulf in power is even comparable when comparing the S to X... They have the same processor, SSD tech, and modern GPU features.

 

[avin]

^ One bottleneck that seems valid is RAM amount and speed. It's not a problem for games where RAM requirements scale down with resolution. But for one specific thing - raytracing - we're told the necessary data structures don't scale with image resolution. Given how poorly the big consoles do raytracing, I don't think it's a problem. There may be other things, but I don't know of any.

I don't think any of this is the reason behind these threads though. It's mostly kids looking for console war fodder, or worried that time spent optimizing for another platform is time taken away from them, that they're somehow entitled to.

avin

 

[01011001]

I'm interested what the Series S can't do at 1080p that is achieved by the Series X or PS5 at 4k. What is the issue or bottleneck?

I mean, seeing what's been done on the Switch has shown me that the base game can always be ported if downgraded enough. PS4 to Switch is a bigger gap.... I don't think the gulf in power is even comparable when comparing the S to X... They have the same processor, SSD tech, and modern GPU features.

Raytracing can be an issue, but BVH building for RT is constantly being improved and this will get better over time.

the Matrix tech demo showed that the S can have highly complex raytracing scenes, as did funnily enough Ubisoft with Watch Dogs Legion right away.

the only real issue the Series S has is memory bandwidth. which is why RT can become an issue. anything else can scale pretty easily.

 

[proandrad]

If your development doesn’t start with series s as a base, then you are setting your game up for failure. Imagine if a pc only game gets made focusing only on a PC with a amd7950x and a 4090 and then complaining to nvidia that the 3060 should be dropped.

 

[Kurotri]

What I don't understand is, don't developers stay in touch with Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo when they develop consoles? Share ideas between themselves and such? If the S was such a bad idea why didn't developers say so?

 

[Starbuck2907]

Series S, due to price and availability, is outselling Series X. It is going nowhere.

https://www.videogameschronicle.com...have-outsold-series-x-in-several-key-markets/

 

[magnumpy]

He does mention many developers having approached MS, the proof of which you or I do not have. While the story does sound suspect if you want to dismiss it out of hand that's up to you. This also is not the first reporting of devs having issues with the S.



But thats the point, you'll be non the wiser for every game released this gen, but behind the scenes some/many developers are having frustrations and will have to make compromises at the early stages in development of a game. Due to NDAs we'll probably never know what the issues are but I feel developers should be given enough credit that their issues / frustrations are true.



So looks like you DO understand where some devs might be coming from.



But that's not how development works, Series S will be in mind from the start. Not just for graphical features, I mean all the other things like game design, the scope of the game and any features they'd like to include during gameplay. In fact it could be anything we're talking next gen games here, the requirements for anything will be higher. I'm trying to give examples beyond the usual just lower res / textures solution as its obviously more than that. Ram for game design cannot be reduced in size. If even after you've optimised your game to hell and back lowered res, reduced textures and assets and still can't get your game to fit in RAM, well now its time to reduce the scope of your game so everything fits.



Certainly not a wet dream of mine, I just put it out there as a possibility, a solution if you will if the terms are favourable. Even if its only one developer who chooses to go that route that would be an unfortunate side effect of MS's cost reducing decision making. I'm surprised by the number of developers that have aired their views online about this. The requirements of a dev are different from game to game the issues could be more widespread but not every dev wants to commit saying it in public. I don't know.

call of duty sucks

 

[hyperbertha]

So basically MS, in order to beat Sony at sales, gimped the entire generation by taking advantage of casuals that can't tell between a pcie slot and a pussy. Way to go fuckwads.

 

[bentanchorbolt]

So basically MS, in order to beat Sony at sales, gimped the entire generation by taking advantage of casuals that can't tell between a pcie slot and a pussy. Way to go fuckwads.

 

[01011001]

So basically MS, in order to beat Sony at sales, gimped the entire generation by taking advantage of casuals that can't tell between a pcie slot and a pussy. Way to go fuckwads.

that's what really ignorant people believe yes.
the truth is that no good developer will have any issues

 

[RoadHazard]

What I don't understand is, don't developers stay in touch with Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo when they develop consoles? Share ideas between themselves and such? If the S was such a bad idea why didn't developers say so?

Maybe some did, and maybe MS didn't care.

 

[hyperbertha]

that's what really ignorant people believe yes.
the truth is that no good developer will have any issues

You are the ignorant one. They have different memory pools. A major pain in the ass to optimize for. Can lead to scaling issues as well and features having to be cut in ambitious games.

 

[01011001]

You are the ignorant one. They have different memory pools. A major pain in the ass to optimize for. Can lead to scaling issues as well and features having to be cut in ambitious games.

there aren't different memory pools. it's a single one and most of the slower part of it is used by the OS not the game.

also THE MATRIX DEMO RUNS ON IT and if developers have issues porting anything to it that's less ambitious than that demo then they deserve to get fucked by the hardware

 

[hyperbertha]

there aren't different memory pools. it's a single one and most of the slower part of it is used by the OS not the game.

also THE MATRIX DEMO RUNS ON IT and if developers have issues porting anything to it that's less ambitious than that demo then they deserve to get fucked by the hardware

i said the series x and series S have different sized memory pools. And the matrix demo is not 'ambitious'. Its an unreal engine nanite demo that produces high polygonal detail. That's about it.

 

[Boots_the_God]

How does the series s hold devs back when they’re still making versions of games for Xbox one and ps4?

 

[bitbydeath]

How does the series s hold devs back when they’re still making versions of games for Xbox one and ps4?

Are you saying Series S should be dropped at the same time as XB1 and PS4?

 

[DarkMage619]

Are you saying Series S should be dropped at the same time as XB1 and PS4?

If the XSS is equivalent in performance as the X1 and PS4, yes. If it has the same feature set, CPU, and SSD as current generation consoles it should be supported to the end of the generation with the other devices.

 

[01011001]

i said the series x and series S have different sized memory pools. And the matrix demo is not 'ambitious'. Its an unreal engine nanite demo that produces high polygonal detail. That's about it.

the lighting (gi, shadows, ao) and reflections in the matrix demo are all raytraced with dozens of cars and pedestrians around.

it's an open world with car deformation, pedestrians, drivable cars, a free roam camera mode, instant day/night switching, full control of the sun position and many other things.

that demo pushes technology as far as any game on current gen consoles will ever push currently available render tech.

also, again, the memory isn't multiple pools, it's 1 pool of memory that simply has slower and faster modules but both types can be adressed the exact same way.
a split pool would be the one in the PS3, which had 2 completely segregated pools of 256MB each that could not be adressed the same way and could only work in tandem if the developers did some major work arounds.
none of this is the case here.

 

[bitbydeath]

If the XSS is equivalent in performance as the X1 and PS4, yes. If it has the same feature set, CPU, and SSD as current generation consoles it should be supported to the end of the generation with the other devices.

Even with the missing feature set they won’t drop it. They’re already in too deep with it.

 

[buenoblue]

Because it's trendy for certain fanboy to sh_t over Series S.

I mean objectively it is the shitty version of the Xbox is it not?

 

[Ozriel]

I mean objectively it is the shitty version of the Xbox is it not?

No. It’s the cheaper, less powerful version. Targeted at a different audience.

You’d be looked at like a weirdo if you said the RTX 3060 was the shitty version of the 3080. Same principle.

 

[hyperbertha]

the lighting (gi, shadows, ao) and reflections in the matrix demo are all raytraced with dozens of cars and pedestrians around.

it's an open world with car deformation, pedestrians, drivable cars, a free roam camera mode, instant day/night switching, full control of the sun position and many other things.

that demo pushes technology as far as any game on current gen consoles will ever push currently available render tech.

also, again, the memory isn't multiple pools, it's 1 pool of memory that simply has slower and faster modules but both types can be adressed the exact same way.
a split pool would be the one in the PS3, which had 2 completely segregated pools of 256MB each that could not be adressed the same way and could only work in tandem if the developers did some major work arounds.
none of this is the case here.

i will repeat. The memory pools of both consoles are differently sized. One has 10 gb, other has 16 gb. render tech isn't what causes game design and scaling issues. Rendering is the easiest thing to scale. THe memory pool isn't used just for rendering, you know that right?

 

[ToTTenTranz]

Tweets deleted.
Print sceen of them:

Ian Maclure, VFX Artist for Bossa Studios has admitted that this is happening more and more, specially as games are going to be more and more next-gen only.

Will Series S hold back multiplatform games? How can this issue even be sorted out?

I wonder what he means by "Xbox Series S Launch Requirements". Perhaps there's been some misinterpretation as to what that means exactly.

Is there e.g. a minimum resolution requirement on the Series S? E.g. the output resolution mustn't go below 1080p (with or without upscaling)?
Could there be games or game engines that would push the Series X to the max at 1080p, meaning it just wouldn't run on the Series S no matter what?

also, again, the memory isn't multiple pools, it's 1 pool of memory that simply has slower and faster modules but both types can be adressed the exact same way.

I'm pretty sure they're treated as 2 different pools, otherwise devs wouldn't know whether they're accessing the faster or the slower portion.

 

[01011001]

i will repeat. The memory pools of both consoles are differently sized. One has 10 gb, other has 16 gb. render tech isn't what causes game design and scaling issues. Rendering is the easiest thing to scale. THe memory pool isn't used just for rendering, you know that right?

use lower texture sizes, run lower res effects,

also going forward with Direct Storage the smaller memory pool of the S gets a lot of help from the SSD. 6+GB per second load speed with direct storage should help load higher res textures when needed.

sampler feedback streaming additionally will help with only loading the parts and mips of textures that are needed in that moment.

current games will have more issues with the memory of the S than games down the line as all of the stuff that can shrink the needed amount of memory aren't really in use yet or only in rudimental forms

 

[Majima Everywhere System]

The people against the series S believe another generational leap is possible. It's not. Everything will look roughly similar until a couple decades from now, but even CGI in movies is still questionable.

It's been that way since crisis 15 years ago. 15 fucking years. It's dead. Enjoy the performance on big consoles, and allow a lower performance machine to make handheld development an easier leap.