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[Woopah]

To do date that hasn't been an issue. Wanna know why? There isn't a development team out there of Insomniac's size that is only comprised of black people.

What a fucking shit strawman argument.

Japanese studios would count no?

 

[DeepEnigma]

To do date that hasn't been an issue. Wanna know why? There isn't a development team out there of Insomniac's size that is only comprised of black people.

What a fucking shit strawman argument.

Asian development teams do exist.

 

[StealthGoblin]

Japanese studios would count no?

Fair point, and yes they should. Particularly in areas where there are cultural elements addressed.

 

[yurinka]

So it wasn't racist, you're just grasping at straws. Because by your logic all of the predominantly white shows that portrayed other minorities groups as the same are racist, but you're not going to argue that are you? You're sensitivity is also showing right now by the way.

My logic is that wanting to replace peoplr of some race by people from other race because of their race is racist. As in this case wanting to remove whites.

Same goes with genocides, when jews do them they continue being a genocide.

These things don't only apply when the "bad guy" or the "good guy" is certain group.

 

[yurinka]

What if the creative team are comprised of non-white people? Do they pay some white culture experts to write white people right in their projects?

Can't believe people are falling for this crap.

We also have to consider that the western AAA teams and studios normally have people from all around the world, from many cultures and ethnicities. They aren't all white.

They aim for top staff and hire them independently of their country of origin, ethnicity, culture, religion, gender, sexual preferences, etc. and end getting people from a lot of places.

Plus these games are made by many studios, typically located in very differnt areas of the world, typially covering NA, EU and Asia.

With the school pictures thing, I think you missed the point. The guy was explaining that the school was diverse yet only white kids had their pictures chosen to "represent" the school. We let the thread know time and time again that the school and the overall area is diverse. I think it was 53% white, 35% minority, and 12% either mixed or other. There's zero reason as to why only the white kids were picked. The poster was trying to explain that sometimes this happens due to explicit bias to one's own race since everybody on the staff was also white.

I didn't miss the point. Who misses the point are the ones who say that racism is ok when applied to the people of certain race. Or the "majority" or "oppresors" or "animals" whatever. Racism is racism, independently of who applies it or to how is applied.

They made a few photos and kids turned out to be from the majority, something statistically normal, not racist. Who in any case is racist is the one who looks at the picture and says that instead of these kids other ones should be the ones who appear because of their ethnicity.

Which version of Fresh Prince are you talking about?

The original one.

 

[Woopah]

My logic is that wanting to replace peoplr of some race by people from other race because of their race is racist. As in this case wanting to remove whites.

Same goes with genocides, when jews do them they continue being a genocide.

These things don't only apply when the "bad guy" or the "good guy" is certain group.

What example are you referring to where whites were removed?

 

[yurinka]

What example are you referring to where whites were removed?

The example of saying that the photos of a London school featuring only whites was an issue and asking to replace (I assume a part of) them with "minorities". Or the many cases of iconic white characters in games, movies etc. who are replaced by non-white versions of them because according to some people it's an issue to have a lot of white main characters because of their skin color. Same goes with gender etc.

To do date that hasn't been an issue. Wanna know why? There isn't a development team out there of Insomniac's size that is only comprised of black people.

I'd bet that there isn't either a team of Insomniac's size only compromised of white people.

 

[bender]

Asian development teams do exist.

 

[StealthGoblin]

The example of saying that the photos of a London school featuring only whites was an issue and asking to replace (I assume a part of) them with "minorities". Or the many cases of iconic white characters in games, movies etc. who are replaced by non-white versions of them because according to some people it's an issue to have a lot of white main characters because of their skin color. Same goes with gender etc.


I'd bet that there isn't either a team of Insomniac's size only compromised of white people.

Your point being? That all black/Asian people are suitable consultants for black/Asian characters?

They aren't. Just like I'm not a good consultant for all white characters.

Just like the Santa Monica writers weren't good at writing white people from Scandinavia.

 

[MAX PAYMENT]

Too bad the quality of the game didn't reflect that budget.

 

[Woopah]

The example of saying that the photos of a London school featuring only whites was an issue and asking to replace (I assume a part of) them with "minorities". Or the many cases of iconic white characters in games, movies etc. who are replaced by non-white versions of them because according to some people it's an issue to have a lot of white main characters because of their skin color. Same goes with gender etc.

The issue with the London school is that the Asian and Black students were ignored in favour of white students. It wasn't the whites left out or removed.

In the same way, the school photos shouldn't only include black students or only Asian students.

I agree with you about race swapping, rather than having remakes we should be getting original characters that accurately portray the variety of people in our world.

 

[Bodom78]

It's only seems to be shoehorning if you disagree with the types of people that are in the game. Do you feel the deaf girl in Spiderman is shoehorned?

No, that was actually quite cool how they silenced the sound, used texting for communication etc. Like The Quiet Man but in an actual decent game framework.

 

[Stooky]

Doesn't make sense race has nothing to do with the writing skills. In this case, should a deer would have written Bambi? And should they hire criminals to write games like GTA? CoD devs should go to war before making the game? It doesn't make sense, it's fiction. Writers, actors, devs, etc. represent stuff and there's absolutely nothing wrong on representing (or not including) whatever they consider.


I assume that in Chinese schools most if not all of the people represented will be Asian, and Nigerian schools most if not all the people represented will be black. Because most people in China are Asian and most people in Nigeria are black. In the same way that most people in England or Europe are white, so makes sense that most if not all people represented there may be white and there's nothing wrong with it.

If due to white signaling want to represent some minorities or whatever you can just go and do it. No need to have consultant for it. In case of a deaf character using the signs language then yes, you'll need someone who knows how it works because it's a different language but that's all (half deaf dev here).

gta/rockstar has a huge editorial research team that the writers use to help them capture the culture they are showing. they will hire peope
from that culture so artist and writers can reference it helps with authenticity.

 

[Stooky]

Firstly we don’t know what the final cost of ES6 wil be or what kind of advancements will take place during its development that will streamline those costs.


Secondly yes, AI will lower dev costs but that will also mean less in-house artists needed. People are going to get fired once it has settled its place in the workflow of art asset development. That is unavoidable. I’m just saying, is all……



Thirdly is not my place to “ approve” ES6 Exclusivity but it’s clearly In interests of MS/Xbox to do so if they are in the business of growing subs… which they clearly are…. The Xbox… much like the windows based PC is merely an option they give you. You can buy a windows live eve or you can buy an Xbox in order to play their games. Pretty simple math.


I mean…. Wouldn’t it be great if I could play Mario legally on my PC? Or Zelda? Why stop at Xbox games? Why limit that notion of thinking to just Xbox? Would it not benefit Sony to also put their games on other platforms like the PC?….. oh wait?…. Never mind… how bout Nintendo? I live their model and tradition but how kings that gonna last? What with a new generation of gamers who don’t really care about a branded box Under the TV that plays specific brand games? It’s an old idea to them. And that’s who these companies have to sell games to in the future….. I’ll say it again though…. It will be my resting to see which of the big thre adapt best to the demands of the new generation of consumer. Because we ain’t eh majority anymore.

not yet it’s still not easy to art direct ai art.

 

[Fake]

What I find most shocking is this:

For those wondering why they spent so much, at least most of it went to salaries, bonuses and benefits for their own employee.

Oh, and they also need to sell 7.2M copies at full price to breakeven, which is insane.

In a game that reuse assests here and there like no end. Is mind blowing the money wasted. Sony really need to control this waste of resource that could be used in smallers projects between those 5 year cycle games.

 

[Bodom78]

If your complaint is about the style of representation, and not the act of representation itself, then that's completely fine.

What should Insomniac have done differently with Spiderman's LGBTQ+ characters to make them less pushed and shoehorned?

Hmmmm, that's a tough one to retroactively think about for a completed project. Even if that was not the case I honestly do not know.

 

[Woopah]

What I find most shocking is this:

What would you have expected the biggest cost to be?

 

[Panajev2001a]

What I find most shocking is this:



In a game that reuse assests here and there like no end. Is mind blowing the money wasted. Sony really need to control this waste of resource that could be used in smallers projects between those 5 year cycle games.

I think we are still seeing a partial picture. Insomniac is one of their most prolific studios, definitely not a 1 game in 5 years type of studio. There is a ton of content in the game and all the existing content got at least a good retouch if not more and there is new content (tons of it). You can see that playing the game.

A lot of the work they have done, people on tools and engine improvements for example, are investments that will benefit all of their titles in development not and in the future and out of Spider-man 2 you will likely get one or two spin-offs and DLCs at a much reduced cost for each (because the main title is what bore the brunt of the cost). This needs to be taken into account too.

 

[Stooky]

Notice that in Fresh Prince of Bel Air all the characters were black, with exception of a few white guys, who always were bad guys or dumb guys. I loved the show but it was racist.

The show was coproduced by Quincy Jones's company, and had a good portion of black producers and executive producers, not only the cast. I don't think they needed external consultants.

Also, both were contemporary North Americans. Being professional writers they should be familiar with their own culture, they weren't making a series of Ancient Rome or Japan.

lol just because fresh prince had black people working in the show doesn’t mean they know what it was like to grow up in west philly. that is why you have consultants no mater what race or culture you are from. i’m black and if i was making game about black teen in harlem im getting a consultant because i know nothing about that. even if i did grow up in harlem
i still would have a consultant.

 

[BacklashWave534]

Move out of Comifornia and your budget to make games will be cut in half.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Move out of Comifornia and your budget to make games will be cut in half.

Facts.

 

[Woopah]

Hmmmm, that's a tough one to retroactively think about for a completed project. Even if that was not the case I honestly do not know.

Its just that I only ever see words like "shorhorned", "pushed", "forced" or "agenda" in relation to LGBTQ+ people. I never see people complain about a piece of media featuring a straight person, and I see it as a bit of a double standard.

So I'm always interested in how people draw the line between pushed sexuality and non-pushed sexuality

 

[Stooky]

Move out of Comifornia and your budget to make games will be cut in half.

over all quality would be cut in half too….depending on the type of game

 

[DeepEnigma]

Its just that I only ever see words like "shorhorned", "pushed", "forced" or "agenda" in relation to LGBTQ+ people. I never see people complain about a piece of media featuring a straight person, and I see it as a bit of a double standard.

So I'm always interested in how people draw the line between pushed sexuality and non-pushed sexuality

I am wondering if it's probably due to those who identify in those groups, wear their sexuality as their identity. They're literally in a soup group that is solely based on sexual preference or identity, where as straight characters or people usually don't apply to a sexuality soup group. Most straight characters or people don't walk around with their sexuality on their sleeves in contrast.

Meaning, they're usually written as a fleshed out character who happens to be straight (or no mentioned at all), where the latter is usually this is a gay character first and foremost who likes to fuck guys or girls or other, now let's try and flesh them out.

It's less subtle/natural and too on the nose, more often than not.

 

[StealthGoblin]

over all quality would be cut in half too….depending on the type of game

Yep. Insomniac are successful partly because of their location:

They have access to a highly skilled talent pool

They got their big break by working at the Universal Studios lot

They have access to other local talent for tech consultation and collaboration (Santa Monica, Naughty Dog)

Picking them up and putting them elsewhere would cause a talent bleed.

 

[Last Hearth]

R

What I find most shocking is this:



In a game that reuse assests here and there like no end. Is mind blowing the money wasted. Sony really need to control this waste of resource that could be used in smallers projects between those 5 year cycle games.

Remember the video I posted a few month ago, where Tim Cain related a story where a change to a algorithm that he could literally do in a couple of hours had a programmer tell him it would take 3 weeks.

Tim Cain (co-creator of Fallout) described the problem with modern game development

He tells some interesting stories. Including one where a piece of code he wanted written to improve enemy AI, that he said would take himself 45 minutes to write, when he gave the task to a programmer, told him it would take 4 weeks, and when he pushed back, angrily walked out on him, and the...

www.neogaf.com

This is how you get these bloated development costs.

 

[Woopah]

I am wondering if it's probably due to those who identify in those groups, wear their sexuality as their identity. They're literally in a soup group that is solely based on sexual preference or identity, where as straight characters or people usually don't apply to a sexuality soup group. Most straight characters or people don't walk around with their sexuality on their sleeves in contrast.

Meaning, they're usually written as a fleshed out character who happens to be straight (or no mentioned at all), where the latter is usually this is a gay character first and foremost who likes to fuck guys or girls or other, now let's try and flesh them out.

It's less subtle/natural and too on the nose, more often than not.

It doesn't have to be that way though. At least in my own experience, my gay and bi friends/colleagues/family don't wear it on their sleeves.

Do you have any examples from games of what you are talking about?

 

[DeepEnigma]

It doesn't have to be that way though. At least in my own experience, my gay and bi friends/colleagues/family don't wear it on their sleeves.

Do you have any examples from games of what you are talking about?

It doesn't, and same here, but society has curated it that way with flags, parades, and "pride = my sexuality" symbolism.

Recent examples,
HFW Burning Shores was pretty forced, regardless if it was a choice as the player at the end. A little odd "we can do it too, just like TLoU expansion" on the nose unoriginality. While TLoU, some will argue felt forced, but to me it felt more natural as a coming of age teen girl, even if a cliché story.

Almost every Overwatch character that doesn't need a backstory, but pandering and all.

I am sure there are many, many others that use the symbolism over the natural character who happened to be gay (or maybe not, we don't know) way of storytelling that have been discussed ad nauseum on here, but drawing a blank at the moment since I tend to overlook those heated discussions more often than not now.

 

[Fake]

Move out of Comifornia and your budget to make games will be cut in half.

100% this
Yep. As I mention before, you can get that fuck out of California and STILL hire people from California without problem.

Is for me a better solution than firing staff.

 

[DeepEnigma]

100% this
Yep. As I mention before, you can get that fuck out of California and STILL hire people from California without problem.

Is for me a better solution than firing staff.

Like Tesla.

 

[JaksGhost]

Like Tesla.

The same Tesla that's moving their Engineering headquarters back to California? They're keeping the muscle in Austin and moving the brain back to California because of talent.

 

[Stooky]

Yep. Insomniac are successful partly because of their location:

They have access to a highly skilled talent pool

They got their big break by working at the Universal Studios lot

They have access to other local talent for tech consultation and collaboration (Santa Monica, Naughty Dog)

Picking them up and putting them elsewhere would cause a talent bleed.

Can't ignore the talent pool and facilities in California. Its big a factor in overall quality in a game

 

[Thirty7ven]

Each game costs more to make thant the one before. One dud and you lose hundreds of millions. Several duds in a row and you are dead.

It’s like this for every studio in the world, big or small. You think there’s a studio out there can keep releasing duds no problem? lol

 

[StealthGoblin]

Can't ignore the talent pool and facilities in California. Its big a factor in overall quality in a game

Indeed. It looks like they've set up their new undisclosed studio in California too.

 

[Woopah]

It doesn't, and same here, but society has curated it that way with flags, parades, and "pride = my sexuality" symbolism.

Recent examples,
HFW Burning Shores was pretty forced, regardless if it was a choice as the player at the end. A little odd "we can do it too, just like TLoU expansion" on the nose unoriginality. While TLoU, some will argue felt forced, but to me it felt more natural as a coming of age teen girl, even if a cliché story.

Almost every Overwatch character that doesn't need a backstory, but pandering and all.

I am sure there are many, many others that use the symbolism over the natural character who happened to be gay (or maybe not, we don't know) way of storytelling that have been discussed ad nauseum on here, but drawing a blank at the moment since I tend to overlook those heated discussions more often than not now.

Well there's the pride parades and flag to celebrate and push for the end of discrimination, so obviously there isn't a straight equivalent.

Even so, a straight or gay person who attends pride can be naturally included in a game.

I haven't played Burning Shores yet, but I can tell from the first two games that Aloy is not a character who is defined by sexuality or who wears in on her sleeve.

Can't speak to Overwatch as I haven't played it, but I appreciate the examples!

 

[DeepEnigma]

Well there's the pride parades and flag to celebrate and push for the end of discrimination, so obviously there isn't a straight equivalent

We are long past that. Especially in these industries.

 

[Woopah]

We are long past that. Especially in these industries.

Well in general society at least there is still some way to go. But pride can still exist as a reminder of the progress made so far.

In terms of gaming, then yes we have indeed made great progress in the last decade.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Well in general society at least there is still some ways to go. But pride can still exist as a reminder of the progress made so far.

Which is why you asked about it being ham fisted and I gave HFW expansion as an example.

No signs of anything from Aloy, in two games. But the expansion just had to go there, down to giving you symbolism LBGT armor.

You know, breaking the 4th wall and being amateur.

 

[Woopah]

Which is why you asked about it being ham fisted and I gave HFW expansion as an example.

No signs of anything from Aloy, in two games. But the expansion just had to go there, down to giving you symbolism LBGT armor.

You know, breaking the 4th wall and being amateur.

How would you have written Aloy being queer in a way that is less ham fisted?

There was no signs in two games, but isnt that better since it means Aloy wasn't wearing her sexuality on her sleeve?

 

[DeepEnigma]

How would you have written Aloy being queer in a way that is less ham fisted?

There was no signs in two games, but isnt that better since it means Aloy wasn't wearing her sexuality on her sleeve?

I would not have. Which is precisely why they shouldn't have. We have come full circle.

It adds nothing to her character other than a real world injection, late to the "look at us, we're doing it too" trend game.

 

[Woopah]

I would not have. Which is precisely why they shouldn't have. We have come full circle.

So then how are writers supposed to include queer characters in games without being criticised for it?

 

[DeepEnigma]

So then how are writers supposed to include queer characters in games without being criticised for it?

 

[mckmas8808]

What if the creative team are comprised of non-white people? Do they pay some white culture experts to write white people right in their projects?

Can't believe people are falling for this crap.

I'd hope so. I mean......why wouldn't they? At least that's what they obviously should do if you want to depict someone properly. What they tend to do is just hire some white folks on the team and they are there everyday.

 

[Woopah]

I don't know what that gif is supposed to say. I'm trying to understand your position.

I thought we had agreed that characters should be written without having their sexuality on their sleeves.

We didn't want characters who were written as gay first, we wanted well written characters who just happened to be gay.

Aloy is the second one.

 

[mckmas8808]

I didn't miss the point. Who misses the point are the ones who say that racism is ok when applied to the people of certain race. Or the "majority" or "oppresors" or "animals" whatever. Racism is racism, independently of who applies it or to how is applied.

They made a few photos and kids turned out to be from the majority, something statistically normal, not racist. Who in any case is racist is the one who looks at the picture and says that instead of these kids other ones should be the ones who appear because of their ethnicity.


The original one.

Is it statistically normal? Many doubt it is. I doubt it is. But the bolded is what's wrong with this world. It's when people decide that only us need to be posted up in the hallways because we make up 53% of the school. So 100% of the kids on the posters need to be the "slight" majority.

My obvious point is that, it's okay to display the full spectrum of the other races in the school if that's who actually goes there. There's close to 0% chance you'd randomly take 100 pictures, only need 20 pictures to hang up on the wall, and all of them that were chosen "JUST SO HAPPENED" to be the white kids. I mean come on man. Let's be honest here.

It doesn't, and same here, but society has curated it that way with flags, parades, and "pride = my sexuality" symbolism.

Recent examples,
HFW Burning Shores was pretty forced, regardless if it was a choice as the player at the end. A little odd "we can do it too, just like TLoU expansion" on the nose unoriginality. While TLoU, some will argue felt forced, but to me it felt more natural as a coming of age teen girl, even if a cliché story.

Almost every Overwatch character that doesn't need a backstory, but pandering and all.

I am sure there are many, many others that use the symbolism over the natural character who happened to be gay (or maybe not, we don't know) way of storytelling that have been discussed ad nauseum on here, but drawing a blank at the moment since I tend to overlook those heated discussions more often than not now.

Having pride in who you are after the world telling you that you are worth-less is only a good thing for those people. Even if society didn't say that about you having pride in who you are is good. Jews, Irish, Itailtans, etc have the same pride and it's good. Heck even Americans have that level of pride. Texans more so lol.

That's normal. It only gets labeled bad when it's the LGBT community for some reason. Even something as innocent as wearing a Black Lives Matter T-Shirt makes some people go crazy.

 

[DeepEnigma]

I don't know what that gif is supposed to say. I'm trying to understand your position.

I thought we had agreed that characters should be written without having their sexuality on their sleeves.

We didn't want characters who were written as gay first, we wanted well written characters who just happened to be gay.

Aloy is the second one.

No, Aloy is the shoehorned retconned one. It never needed to be brought up, like at all. We spent posts agreeing that in the first step games, it had no bearing or ever needed to exist. Only to be added with her real world pride armor

Having pride in who you are after the world telling you that you are worth-less is only a good thing for those people.

Irony is far too thick in current year.

Pride should be for achievements, not immutable characteristics.

 

[Woopah]

No, Aloy is the shoehorned retconned one. It never needed to be brought up, like at all. We spent posts agreeing that in the first step games, it had no bearing or ever needed to exist. Only to be added with her real world pride armor

How can it be shoehorned or a retcon when they never revealed Aloy's sexuality?

I don't remember the games ever saying Aloy was asexual, so it's not a retcon for her to kiss someone.

We agree that characters don't need to have a sexuality, but that doesn't mean it's a bad thing when they do. Other Sony characters like Nate Drake or Kratos have sexuality.

Put it this way, I don't remember Varl's sexuality being particularly important in Zero Dawn. But his sexuality is much more important in Forbidden West.

Do you consider it a retcon for Varl's sexuality to be shoehorned in?

 

[DeepEnigma]

How can it be shoehorned or a retcon when they never revealed Aloy's sexuality?

I don't remember the games ever saying Aloy was asexual, so it's not a retcon for her to kiss someone.

We agree that characters don't need to have a sexuality, but that doesn't mean it's a bad thing when they do. Other Sony characters like Nate Drake or Kratos have sexuality.

Put it this way, I don't remember Varl's sexuality being particularly important in Zero Dawn. But his sexuality is much more important in Forbidden West.

Do you consider it a retcon for Varl's sexuality to be shoehorned in?

It's a player's choice end game dialogue. Which shows how unimportant it was to her development, and ham fisted.

Write them better. Characters, I mean.

 

[Woopah]

It's a player's choice end game dialogue. Which shows how unimportant it was to her development, and ham fisted.

Write them better. Characters, I mean.

So just I can check understand you correctly, had there been signs of Aloy's queerness in the first game, and had she entered into a mandatory, well written relationship with a woman in the second game, you would have been okay with that.

Is that correct? (I appreciate you continuing to reply btw).

 

[DeepEnigma]

So just I can check understand you correctly, had there been signs of Aloy's queerness in the first game, and had she entered into a mandatory, well written relationship with a woman in the second game, you would have been okay with that.

Is that correct? (I appreciate you continuing to reply btw).

Yes. I would have been okay with it. Just as I'm a-okay with The Last of Us and Ellie, as well as other works like Life is Strange (never played the sequels).

This lazy way of writing it in, especially as a player's choice, is poor. Most definitely when it comes to canonize your character.