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[Thirty7ven]

380 devs and $100 million salary for that year comes out to $268k a year per dev. That’s whats nonsense.

This is from insomniacs glassdoor.

Total for fy22 which is the highest one says Insomniac is 85.2, 67.3 for Insomniacs own headcount, which is 177k?

I imagine higher ups and people who have been at the studio for a long time will skew the numbers.

My math is probably wrong and I concede straight away, but you are looking at all costs included, and just splitting by Insomniacs own headcount?

 

[NahaNago]

If you believe that miles, a 7 hour dlc cost 156 million and a ps5 port of Spider-Man cost $39 million then i don’t know what to tell you.

These numbers just don’t make any sense whatsoever. Even if you put them up Sonys own inflated numbers for hfw and gow which they said cost $200 million. So 50-100 hour games 5 years in development cost $200 million while miles, a 7 hour dlc set in the same city costs $156 million?

Meanwhile remedy with 350 devs takes 4 years to make alan wake 2 for $50 mil euros. The docs state that in the peak year 380 devs worked on sp2 and it cost them $100 million that year. Remedy had around the same number of devs for 4 years and averaged 12.5 million a year.

These numbers make zero sense.

And btw, we discussed this when horizon fw was confirmed to have cost $112 million euros by a Dutch documentary on GG. If we go by that figure, spiderman 2 costing 3x more while being in full dev for 3 years instead of 5 for hfw while using the same damn city is insane.

The problem with the 50 mil euros then it would mean that the developers were only making like 35 thousand euro a year. You can barely afford an apartment where I live with that kind of salary.

Now the 100 million in one year I don't understand at all. There is no way the employees are making nearly 300k.

 

[yurinka]

At this point those 300m budgets are just making those studio's a big meme in the industry i guess.

No, big AAA budgets nowadays are between $300-$500M+, and most of them don't sell 20-25M+ copies as Spider-Man does.

 

[SneakersSO]

show me a game that’s equal to SM2 that cost half the budget.

SM1 cost 1/3rd of the budget. $100m. I love SM2, but I can admit that what its delivering is not $200m more than what they delivered in SM1.

 

[Dr. Wilkinson]

It doesn't have to be this way. These studios burn money on the stupidest shit.

Care to elaborate….??

 

[Dr. Wilkinson]

We could look at the margins and see how much profit per dollar spent. It's crazy to think about, but some business care about ROI.

You don’t think Insomniac or SIE cares about ROI? C’mon. Ridiculous post.

 

[SHA]

If the rumours are correct, 3 will sell for a $180 divided into 3 installments, can't comprehend this specific thing.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

It doesn't have to be this way. These studios burn money on the stupidest shit.

You're an uninformed forum poster who doesn't even know how the industry works unless it's spoon fed via internet info. Don't pretend you know what you're talking about just because you read documents you don't even know how to parse through unless you work at IG?

 

[Stooky]

SM1 cost 1/3rd of the budget. $100m. I love SM2, but I can admit that what its delivering is not $200m more than what they delivered in SM1.

I don’t know about that. just the big set pieces alone have hefty price tags. it is a bigger game RD tech larger team + inflation. it doesn’t surprise me it cost that much. there is no way they are making that game in 2023 for 100m.

 

[ptuck874]

in all seriousness, if you can't tell the writing on the wall, the easy pc jobs we have been having lately (in all truth, when you can work 2 hours a day and get paid for 8) we guys know how to play the system. AI is seriously going to come for all us that know we can do a ton more, but just got to lazy on it, and thinking these companies been making bank on us, why not screw them over some, well I predict in 5 to 7 years, with advancements in AI, we screwed dudes, but hey let's keep the party going as long as we can Merry Christmas everyone!!! Oh and thanks Insomniac for letting the world know we can play the game with the best of them lol

 

[ptuck874]

oh and dang Lions playing good today!!!

 

[ptuck874]

oh and bananas in the break room....

 

[mdkirby]

I dont know how it can happen but game budgets really need to be brought down some how.
I remember a few years ago EA and Ubisoft were talking about consoles and PC's being so good at pushing poluygon counts this gen that studios would be able to use 3D scanners to scan objects and create a ready made asset very quick, saving a ton of money as artists building assets from scratch takes time and money, in fact asset building is the most time consuming and expensive part of development.
It doesnt seem to really of had an effect though so far.

Ai augmented workflows and generative ai will bring down the costs. A lot of it’s not quite there yet but it’s getting close. I can see it easily chopping both budgets and dev time in half in the next couple of years. Unless they use that spare capacity to massively ramp up amount of detail and world/game size. Which would be a mistake imo.

 

[leizzra]

Talking about game budget we need to take into account firstly the salary of employees. Big games need a lot of people and nowadays the cost of living is high. I earn quite a lot. Ten years ago it would be a dream salary. Now I still think I earn quite well but I don’t feel like it when I see my account at the end of the month. Sure there are people who earn less and those who have higher salary.

Also games are more complicated so they are longer in development so not only you have more people but they are working about two times more. There were times when single character model could be done by one person. Now there is a whole team of people that is needed for that. One employee can make it still but it’ll take even more time and the final effect can be not as good (the process is complicated and demands many skills and high level of them).

Then the cost of employee is not only his salary. There is also health insurance, workshops, funds for get together meetings and so on. Then there are licenses for software, you need to change PCs after few years. Then there is the office rent, power bills, office management cost. Bigger the studio, bigger the costs.

Is there a way to reduce it and still maintain the quality? Well, we could probably reduce the HR department, and the number of producers. Their job is making the work easier and with big projects they are more needed. Still they aren’t making (like literary coding, modeling, painting, designing, etc.) the games. I remember when we had zero producers and the games were made (but they were smaller and less complex). It won’t be probably much less money thought.

Other ways would be to make simpler games. Can we step backward though?

The technology can help but it can also make the process even more complex (someone mentioned photogrammetry - it helped with the quality but it demands a lot of effort, knowledge, hardware, etc.). AI for now is not used in places that could really help (like making automatic low poly models, or UV mapping).

 

[semiconscious]

I don’t know about that. just the big set pieces alone have hefty price tags. it is a bigger game RD tech larger team + inflation. it doesn’t surprise me it cost that much. there is no way they are making that game in 2023 for 100m.

well, considering spider-man came out only 5 years ago, what else can you think of, other than spidey 2, that's tripled in price/value over the last 5 years?...

 

[TaylorSwiftFan]

It’s not sustainable. At some point, they’ll fail to sell enough copies and Sony will bin them.

 

[KuraiShidosha]

This is hilarious lmao love when this shit gets out in the open. Can finally see what's really going on behind the scenes. I guess Shawn Layden was right about AAA blockbusters not lasting. PlayStation can't keep up with the cost to maintain their exclusives.

 

[mckmas8808]

There's a slide in this Thread which said Miles Morales cost a far more reasonable 80 million to develop.

Sales-Age - Marvel's Spider-Man: Miles Morales Sales Reach 14.4M Units (as of June 2023)

The slide also contains some additional key financial measures including projections for the upcoming Venom title.

www.neogaf.com

There's alot of conflicting information coming out of this leak. People should be very careful about what there reading before running with it as fact.

Personally the idea that Spider-Man 2 needs 500 million to break even is dubious...

The thing that most seem to be missing is that these slides were obviously made at different times. So what was true in January 2022 is totally different in the summer of 2023.

Plus I'm 100% sure that 7.2 million sold amount for SM2 to break even is more than likely including the fact that the game will go on sale and also be bundled (meaning they'll get less money per game).

Selling 7.2 million games at an average price of $70 gets you $500 million in revenue. But selling it at an average cost of $50 nets you $360 million.

 

[Panajev2001a]

There's a slide in this Thread which said Miles Morales cost a far more reasonable 80 million to develop.

Part of the reason behind this is that they take advantage of work and tech built for Spider-man 1 and its remaster… despite adding a new area to the game.

Again these are not documents to investors, but internal accounting and business presentations, need to be decoded and some internal agendas removed.

 

[mckmas8808]

This is hilarious lmao love when this shit gets out in the open. Can finally see what's really going on behind the scenes. I guess Shawn Layden was right about AAA blockbusters not lasting. PlayStation can't keep up with the cost to maintain their exclusives.

But all these big blockbuster AAA games keep making huge profit. So what's the problem?

 

[KuraiShidosha]

But all these big blockbuster AAA games keep making huge profit. So what's the problem?

Shawn's point was that they were going to reach critical mass and it cannot continue to scale up forever. Single player AAAs just don't cut it abymore, hence the push for multiplayer premiums and micro transactions. The old blockbuster single player game format of ever bigger and bigger games just can't keep going.

 

[mckmas8808]

Shawn's point was that they were going to reach critical mass and it cannot continue to scale up forever. Single player AAAs just don't cut it abymore, hence the push for multiplayer premiums and micro transactions. The old blockbuster single player game format of ever bigger and bigger games just can't keep going.

Yeah I think somewhere between $200m and $300m should be the cutoff. Unless it'll have a GTA5 Style GAAS or the console total is over 100 million.

For instance, if TLOU3 cost $350 million to make that's fine because it'll come out after the PS5 is over 100 million sold.

 

[EverydayBeast]

Insomniac put together a nice super hero game, who cares about these sale intel drops?

 

[StealthGoblin]

Yeah I think somewhere between $200m and $300m should be the cutoff. Unless it'll have a GTA5 Style GAAS or the console total is over 100 million.

For instance, if TLOU3 cost $350 million to make that's fine because it'll come out after the PS5 is over 100 million sold.

By that logic the next gen games should have a small budget which wouldn't make impressive games to help sell the hardware.

I think their strategy moving forward is wise.

Keep making single player AAA games. Launch on PC after about a year.

Make GAAS games internally and with partners that will launch on PS and PC (and Xbox and Nintendo for Bungie).

Build out the PC experience with the launcher, store, full trophy integration etc.

Launch PS+ premium through TVs and streaming sticks etc.

Cosy up to developers and publishers who are making GAAS games so Sony get 30% for each transaction for minimal effort (Genshin etc)

Work with 3rd party publishers to breathe life into older dormant PlayStation IP (Japanese publishers are doing this for Sony AA IP)

Work with specialists in untapped markets to build PlayStation IP (potentially into new genres) - e.g Horizon with NCSOFT etc

Build out on Mobile (development of IP and PS+ integration)

Raise the profile of all IP by leveraging PlayStation Productions.

Long term that looks sustainable. It keeps the console and AAA IP at the core of what they do while building out multiple revenue streams.

From a Sony/Microsoft perspective, Microsoft have repeatedly failed to make a dent in Sony's console business and will likely continue to flounder. The above represents Sony making some stronger steps into Microsoft's back yard.

From a Sony/Nintendo perspective, Sony would be getting out well in front of Nintendo, but it is worth remembering that currently Nintendo just need to be Nintendo as they are brilliantly successful. However, when the tide changes they may find themselves unprepared.

 

[kazuyamishima]

From the leaks, Ratchet and Clank Rift Apart is at 4m. units sold as of June 2023.

 

[OuterLimits]

I suppose this explains why Jim wanted to go down the GaaS road,. Also doing PC ports, and making PS+ somewhat similar to GamePass (minus Day 1 games) helps bring in extra cash also.

 

[StealthGoblin]

From the leaks, Ratchet and Clank Rift Apart is at 4m. units sold as of June 2023.

That's not bad. They were happy enough to include it in PS+ extra. Is there a PS5/PC split?

With a game like Ratchet sales would matter more as it isn't a key hardware driver like Spiderman etc.

 

[Flutta]

This is hilarious lmao love when this shit gets out in the open. Can finally see what's really going on behind the scenes. I guess Shawn Layden was right about AAA blockbusters not lasting. PlayStation can't keep up with the cost to maintain their exclusives.

Not sure you've thought this through. I mean most of their AAA games are making money not losing.. also you don't seem to understand this is how PlayStation stands out from the competition and this is one of the reason gamers by into their ecosystem. You seem to only see what's in front of you and not the whole picture. Either they have AAA blockbusters or they will lose a huge amount of their players and that in return will make them lose out on more profit. Problem here lies with managing excessive spending by recognizing areas that needs trimming. Start by moving your studios to less expensive areas etc.

 

[kazuyamishima]

That's not bad. They were happy enough to include it in PS+ extra. Is there a PS5/PC split?

With a game like Ratchet sales would matter more as it isn't a key hardware driver like Spiderman etc.

PC version was released at the end of July, so the 4m figure is for the PS5 version only with a budget of about $105m, if I remember correctly the average sale price was around $53.xx

Also, it seems that GOW:R budget is around $200m excluding marketing.

 

[StealthGoblin]

PC version was released at the end of July, so the 4m figure is for the PS5 version only with a budget of about $105m, if I remember correctly the average sale price was around $53.xx

Also, it seems that GOW:R budget is around $200m excluding marketing.

That's gonna be a great ROI for Santa Monica. GOW and GOW:R don't have licensing to pay for and also helped shift a lot of consoles. Massive success for them. No wonder Valhalla was free.

Incidentally I know they have at least three internal games on the go (different IP). There might be multiple GOW projects included in that GOW bracket, but definitely two other IP outside of GOW. Corey has had his worked on since before 2018 so that should be quite far along. I suspect, given his interests, that it'll be a sci-fi game. The two lead writers for GOW also wrote Lost Planet which he is a huge fan of.

Insomniac tying themselves down to a lot of Marvel projects is a risk for ROI given the licensing costs associated. They should easily hit their thresholds but that's a cost that really eats into profitability and can stunt growth of the studio.

 

[Bodom78]

Sure their making money, but it does not seem worth the investment, time and risk to an observer like me.

Also the end result while graphically impressive, was quite stock standard gameplaynand story wise and the American diversity and wokism really bought it down for me.

 

[Alphagear]

Needed to sell?

Not needs to sell?

You make it sound as though it has stopped selling and won’t reach that figure. So it lost money.

Hasn’t it already sold 5 million in 11 days.

Pretty sure it has already crossed 7.2 million in the next 2 months with Christmas sales added too.

 

[StealthGoblin]

Sure their making money, but it does not seem worth the investment, time and risk to an observer like me.

Also the end result while graphically impressive, was quite stock standard gameplaynand story wise and the American diversity and wokism really bought it down for me.

What woke elements did you not like? I've asked plenty of people this but they are never specific.

Everyone has to remember that one of the driving forces for Sony investing in Spiderman is shifting consoles and I don't think anyone can argue that it isn't a mammoth system seller. The ROI is beyond game sales here - it's having people in the walled garden spending and giving Sony 30% of everything.

 

[metareferential]

Needed to sell?

Not needs to sell?

You make it sound as though it has stopped selling and won’t reach that figure. So it lost money.

Hasn’t it already sold 5 million in 11 days.

Pretty sure it has already crossed 7.2 million in the next 2 months with Christmas sales added too.

And...DLC and other things.

Treating these figures like Spider-man is being programmed and sold in a vacuum is stupid.

 

[Gamer_By_Proxy]

They’ve been carrying the generation and got bought super cheap. They probably deserve all those bonuses and salaries and this game funded it. Now back to reality

 

[nkarafo]

Speaking about woke:





How much money would you say they wasted on that? I mean, an "Afro-Latinx expert" from "Blactina Media" can't be too cheap...

 

[Evil Calvin]

How about not paying everyone so much. I'm sure this figure is mainly for the execs and managers,

 

[StealthGoblin]

How about not paying everyone so much. I'm sure this figure is mainly for the execs and managers,

They need to be competitive where they are. If you don't have competitive wages, bonuses and benefits then you lose staff. That is what happened to Deviation games and it's what has happened at the Initiative (alongside some attrition for promotion and creative differences).

Insomniac are rightly praised for releasing high quality games at a quicker cadence than their peers yet people expect them to do this by some cheap miracle.

Dollar for dollar they've been the most valuable 1st party developer over the last 6-7 years.

 

[mckmas8808]

By that logic the next gen games should have a small budget which wouldn't make impressive games to help sell the hardware.

I think their strategy moving forward is wise.

Keep making single player AAA games. Launch on PC after about a year.

Make GAAS games internally and with partners that will launch on PS and PC (and Xbox and Nintendo for Bungie).

Build out the PC experience with the launcher, store, full trophy integration etc.

Launch PS+ premium through TVs and streaming sticks etc.

Cosy up to developers and publishers who are making GAAS games so Sony get 30% for each transaction for minimal effort (Genshin etc)

Work with 3rd party publishers to breathe life into older dormant PlayStation IP (Japanese publishers are doing this for Sony AA IP)

Work with specialists in untapped markets to build PlayStation IP (potentially into new genres) - e.g Horizon with NCSOFT etc

Build out on Mobile (development of IP and PS+ integration)

Raise the profile of all IP by leveraging PlayStation Productions.

Long term that looks sustainable. It keeps the console and AAA IP at the core of what they do while building out multiple revenue streams.

From a Sony/Microsoft perspective, Microsoft have repeatedly failed to make a dent in Sony's console business and will likely continue to flounder. The above represents Sony making some stronger steps into Microsoft's back yard.

From a Sony/Nintendo perspective, Sony would be getting out well in front of Nintendo, but it is worth remembering that currently Nintendo just need to be Nintendo as they are brilliantly successful. However, when the tide changes they may find themselves unprepared.

I agree with all of this actually. As long as the AAA games from Sony and their 2nd party and 3rd party exclusives keep coming, then all the other stuff is like a cherry on the top. Sometimes things work out and sometimes they don't. But keep pushing the industry. I like that. In the same way in how they made PSVR2. Dip your toe in a lot of areas. I'd just like them to work 25% harder in VR though.

 

[mckmas8808]

From the leaks, Ratchet and Clank Rift Apart is at 4m. units sold as of June 2023.

I haven't seen that leak yet. Do you have a link to that?

PC version was released at the end of July, so the 4m figure is for the PS5 version only with a budget of about $105m, if I remember correctly the average sale price was around $53.xx

Also, it seems that GOW:R budget is around $200m excluding marketing.

If the bolded is true, then Ratchet and Clank: Rift Apart would have generated over $212 million in revenue! For a game that cost $100 million to make, how can anyone think this is bad for either Insomniac or Sony? Or the industry even...
After you throw in marketing and other cost (packaging\distrubution\retailer cost) it easily made them $70 million in pure profit! That's around a 67% ROI for Rift Apart. How can a 67% ROI over 4 years (making the game) be considered a bad thing? That's an annualized 17% profit per year. You're not getting that even if you parked your money in the stock market.

Sure their making money, but it does not seem worth the investment, time and risk to an observer like me.

Also the end result while graphically impressive, was quite stock standard gameplaynand story wise and the American diversity and wokism really bought it down for me.

Then what are you observing? The first Spiderman game costs around $100+ million to make, but generated over $800 million! Miles Morales cost $110 million to make AND market for advertising. And it generated over $550 million selling around 15 million copies! What doesn't seem worth investing in? You're thinking like a Warner Bros exec.

Speaking about woke:





How much money would you say they wasted on that? I mean, an "Afro-Latinx expert" from "Blactina Media" can't be too cheap...

Just because the are focusing on other races of people, than just white folk? You think those "Afro-Latino" experts charged them $10 million or something?

 

[twilo99]

Maybe Insomniac are really inefficient? Horizon forbidden west cost $212 million dollars to make, and it looks far more of a next gen game than spider man 2 looks and it's a $100 million dollars cheaper. I don't know how Sony/Insomniac justifies that budget. ( I'm not an expert on video game budgets or anything).

They justify it by making money.

 

[Bodom78]

You're thinking like a Warner Bros exec.

Guess I am, That 400+ million profit from the first is not going to go far if the current trajectory continues and the turnaround is too slow.

Just because the are focusing on other races of people, than just white folk? You think those "Afro-Latino" experts charged them $10 million or something?

Who knows, $10 million might not be that far off with their Sweet Baby Inc cost, removal of woke content for the Middle East release, in office ESG meetings, discussions, what ever else it entails would all take time and in turn cost money.

Americans seem to love pushing LGBTQ+, race, having everyone feel like their represented in a game. They have forgotten about fantasy, imagination and escapism.

Thankfully gaming has many avenues to navigate around these products. I can call these things out if I don't agree with or like it, just as those who want it can praise it.

 

[nkarafo]

Just because the are focusing on other races of people, than just white folk? You think those "Afro-Latino" experts charged them $10 million or something?

Why do they need "studies" and "experts" to make characters with any skin color other than white? Why do they need to hire those people and spend money? Why is it such an effort?

It's because nothing of this sort is honest or made organically. Now it's a box ticking, agenda pushing, virtue signaling charade that apparently also gets funded by third parties in some cases so it has to be made "official" or in a form of a "project" that needs experts and professionals and all that fake shit.

Don't fall for it my man.

 

[Shifty1897]

If I calculate right it means that the average salary per core dev is a little above >$200k a year (in 2022, $67M divided per 315 devs). That's quite impressive.

More than likely executives eat up most of that to the point where the average dev makes 100-130. Still really good money, but maybe not that great when you consider they're now pretty much the best first party studio that Sony owns and Sony is currently winning the shit out of this generation and making money hand over fist right now. If I was working at Insomniac for a few years I'd be expecting to be paid more than any other game developer could pay me, full stop.

Sony posted a remote DevOps job I was looking at recently and the listed pay was 125-135, which is about in line with the industry average, maybe a little higher.

 

[Thirty7ven]

So across Spider-Man/Miles/Spiderman 2, Insomniac will have generated >2 billion on an <600 million investment, and yet people are like oh my god how can they keep doing this?

 

[StealthGoblin]

Why do they need "studies" and "experts" to make characters with any skin color other than white? Why do they need to hire those people and spend money? Why is it such an effort?

It's because nothing of this sort is honest or made organically. Now it's a box ticking, agenda pushing, virtue signaling charade that apparently also gets funded by third parties in some cases so it has to be made "official" or in a form of a "project" that needs experts and professionals and all that fake shit.

Don't fall for it my man.

White people, of which I am included, aren't very good at writing or representing other races and we have a lot of blind spots on race, simply because we haven't lived with a lot of the struggles or challenges others have. It rears it's head everywhere.

For example in the school I teach in Lots of photos were taken of the children during lessons with a view to having professional photos all over the walls in the corridors etc. Many meetings were had and yet when the final images went up on the wall, not a single Asian or Black child featured. Multiple meetings, all white people and we ended up with corridors that didn't represent the diversity in the school (one of the most diverse areas in London).

If people aren't in the room, you'd be surprised at how much unintentional shit just sails by without anyone noticing.

I don't have an issue with directly working with people to ensure things like that don't happen. Especially given that New York is being represented and of course you need a consultant for the deaf if you are aiming to represent deaf people accurately.

 

[mckmas8808]

Guess I am, That 400+ million profit from the first is not going to go far if the current trajectory continues and the turnaround is too slow.

Anytime $400 in pure profit is bad, then that business needs to be shut down IMMEDIATELY! I'd agree with you if it took 10 years to make one game. Insomniac has made 3 games in the PS5's first 3 years of existence. With each game making between $70 million to $400 million in profit. Again......in 3 years after release, Insomniac's three games made around $720 million total in pure profit.

There's no Executive (that is respected) on Earth that will think this is bad and unsustainable.

Why do they need "studies" and "experts" to make characters with any skin color other than white? Why do they need to hire those people and spend money? Why is it such an effort?

It's because nothing of this sort is honest or made organically. Now it's a box ticking, agenda pushing, virtue signaling charade that apparently also gets funded by third parties in some cases so it has to be made "official" or in a form of a "project" that needs experts and professionals and all that fake shit.

Don't fall for it my man.

There's zero percent chance you know any of the bolded at all! The answer to your question is this........they pay money for that stuff to understand the history and culture of people that they don't share. It's plain and simple. Sucker Punch did the same thing when they were making Ghost of Tsushima. Ubisoft does it too with their Assassin's Creed games.

 

[yurinka]

Anytime $400 in pure profit is bad, then that business needs to be shut down IMMEDIATELY! I'd agree with you if it took 10 years to make one game. Insomniac has made 3 games in the PS5's first 3 years of existence. With each game making between $70 million to $400 million in profit. Again......in 3 years after release, Insomniac's three games made around $720 million total in pure profit.

There's no Executive (that is respected) on Earth that will think this is bad and unsustainable.

Remember that on top of that there's the 3 PC ports, which only did cost around $2M each, were done by someone else and also were highly profitable.

 

[yurinka]

White people, of which I am included, aren't very good at writing or representing other races and we have a lot of blind spots on race, simply because we haven't lived with a lot of the struggles or challenges others have. It rears it's head everywhere.

Doesn't make sense race has nothing to do with the writing skills. In this case, should a deer would have written Bambi? And should they hire criminals to write games like GTA? CoD devs should go to war before making the game? It doesn't make sense, it's fiction. Writers, actors, devs, etc. represent stuff and there's absolutely nothing wrong on representing (or not including) whatever they consider.

For example in the school I teach in Lots of photos were taken of the children during lessons with a view to having professional photos all over the walls in the corridors etc. Many meetings were had and yet when the final images went up on the wall, not a single Asian or Black child featured. Multiple meetings, all white people and we ended up with corridors that didn't represent the diversity in the school (one of the most diverse areas in London).

If people aren't in the room, you'd be surprised at how much unintentional shit just sails by without anyone noticing.

I don't have an issue with directly working with people to ensure things like that don't happen. Especially given that New York is being represented and of course you need a consultant for the deaf if you are aiming to represent deaf people accurately.

I assume that in Chinese schools most if not all of the people represented will be Asian, and Nigerian schools most if not all the people represented will be black. Because most people in China are Asian and most people in Nigeria are black. In the same way that most people in England or Europe are white, so makes sense that most if not all people represented there may be white and there's nothing wrong with it.

If due to white signaling want to represent some minorities or whatever you can just go and do it. No need to have consultant for it. In case of a deaf character using the signs language then yes, you'll need someone who knows how it works because it's a different language but that's all (half deaf dev here).

 

[StealthGoblin]

Doesn't make sense race has nothing to do with the writing skills. In this case, should a deer would have written Bambi? And should they hire criminals to write games like GTA? CoD devs should go to war before making the game? It doesn't make sense, it's fiction. Writers, actors, devs, etc. represent stuff and there's absolutely nothing wrong on representing (or not including) whatever they consider.


I assume that in Chinese schools most if not all of the people represented will be Asian, and Nigerian schools most if not all the people represented will be black. Because most people in China are Asian and most people in Nigeria are black. In the same way that most people in England or Europe are white, so makes sense that most if not all people represented there may be white and there's nothing wrong with it.

If due to white signaling want to represent some minorities or whatever you can just go and do it. No need to have consultant for it. In case of a deaf character using the signs language then yes, you'll need someone who knows how it works because it's a different language but that's all (half deaf dev here).

That's not what I said. I said that they'd represented zero black or Asian people. That is not good enough. The school in question is approx 40% non white.

Black and Asian people will have a different perspective about how black and Asian people may react in a given situation. It's useful to have someone who has a different lived experience around so that the writing is accurate.

Besides all that - there is nothing wrong with making a game where people are represented. If that boils people's blood then that says more about them then they'd likely admit aloud to others.

All sorts of people exist so if you are aiming for a game targeted at the widest possible audience, which a mega IP like Spiderman should, then you need to do your homework and follow through with that representation. Tokenism is often worse than no inclusion at all.

I'd have no idea how to write a black family from Harlem's home life accurately. Completely different world to me and likely a completely different world to white guys from Burbank likely experience.