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[mckmas8808]

Doesn't make sense race has nothing to do with the writing skills. In this case, should a deer would have written Bambi? And should they hire criminals to write games like GTA? CoD devs should go to war before making the game? It doesn't make sense, it's fiction. Writers, actors, devs, etc. represent stuff and there's absolutely nothing wrong on representing (or not including) whatever they consider.


I assume that in Chinese schools most if not all of the people represented will be Asian, and Nigerian schools most if not all the people represented will be black. Because most people in China are Asian and most people in Nigeria are black. In the same way that most people in England or Europe are white, so makes sense that most if not all people represented there may be white and there's nothing wrong with it.

If due to white signaling want to represent some minorities or whatever you can just go and do it. No need to have consultant for it. In case of a deaf character using the signs language then yes, you'll need someone who knows how it works because it's a different language but that's all (half deaf dev here).

To be fair, many creative teams hire military vets before they create a COD game or a War movie. Happens all the time actually. And you missed what S StealthGoblin was saying about his school in London. In his school it's diverse. He even said it's one of the most diverse areas in London. It's not mostly white. And that my friend is the problem. Some people just default to "white people" even if what's in front of them is only 50% white folks.

You're almost talking as if it's a bad thing to have consultants while making a game. Why?

 

[Hudo]

For modelling MJ, they had exactly $2.50 left in the budget.

 

[mckmas8808]

That's not what I said. I said that they'd represented zero black or Asian people. That is not good enough. The school in question is approx 40% non white.

Black and Asian people will have a different perspective about how black and Asian people may react in a given situation. It's useful to have someone who has a different lived experience around so that the writing is accurate.

Besides all that - there is nothing wrong with making a game where people are represented. If that boils people's blood then that says more about them then they'd likely admit aloud to others.

All sorts of people exist so if you are aiming for a game targeted at the widest possible audience, which a mega IP like Spiderman should, then you need to do your homework and follow through with that representation. Tokenism is often worse than no inclusion at all.

I'd have no idea how to write a black family from Harlem's home life accurately. Completely different world to me and likely a completely different world to white guys from Burbank likely experience.

Even more so when that family is actually Afro-Latino and has a mix of black and Puerto Rican culture. Why wouldn't a creative team NOT want to do it right? Completely agree with you.

 

[yurinka]

To be fair, many creative teams hire military vets before they create a COD game or a War movie. Happens all the time actually. And you missed what S StealthGoblin was saying about his school in London. In his school it's diverse. He even said it's one of the most diverse areas in London. It's not mostly white. And that my friend is the problem. Some people just default to "white people" even if what's in front of them is only 50% white folks.

You're almost talking as if it's a bad thing to have consultants while making a game. Why?

I have some friends working on a Battlefield/CoD like shooter who recently hired consultants who worked for CoD, basically weapon experts from USA that allowed them to test the weapons and save their sound etc. We're Europeans don't have military guns in the supermarket), so in this case makes sense and is needed.

But to include a black, gay, lgbt, deaf character, etc. you don't need a consultant (or woke censors, which often is the case for these 'inclusivity consultants') because there are already playtests to get feedback from random people and particularly from the main target user groups.

My point was that statically white people is the default in UK (81.7%) or USA (75.5% for whatever 'white alone' means, they also have a 'White alone, not Hispanic or Latino' group and for some reason they don't consider the white Latin people as white), so it's normal that to represent people from there they choose/default to white. In the same way than in China may default to Asian and to black in Congo. Not because of racism, but because it's what they are used to see around. Even if in that particular neighborhood/school have more diversity.

And there's nothing wrong with it, and people shouldn't give a fuck about it. Because to represent the majority of the population is normal and not racist. Racist is to say that certain ethnicity shouldn't be represented, or that it is overrepresented, and other ones should be represented instead overrepresenting them because of potatoes. In fact, the excuse often have a racist reasoning: that because of being from a certain ethnicity they are a victim/poor/less skilled/worse/need help because of their ethnicity.

 

[mckmas8808]

I have some friends working on a Battlefield/CoD like shooter who recently hired consultants who worked for CoD, basically weapon experts from USA that allowed them to test the weapons and save their sound etc. We're Europeans don't have military guns in the supermarket), so in this case makes sense and is needed.

But to include a black, gay, lgbt, deaf character, etc. you don't need a consultant (or woke censors, which often is the case for these 'inclusivity consultants') because there are already playtests to get feedback from random people and particularly from the main target user groups.

My point was that statically white people is the default in UK (81.7%) or USA (75.5% for whatever 'white alone' means, they also have a 'White alone, not Hispanic or Latino' group and for some reason they don't consider the white Latin people as white), so it's normal that to represent people from there they choose/default to white. In the same way than in China may default to Asian and to black in Congo. Not because of racism, but because it's what they are used to see around. Even if in that particular neighborhood/school have more diversity.

And there's nothing wrong with it, and people shouldn't give a fuck about it. Because to represent the majority of the population is normal and not racist. Racist is to say that certain ethnicity shouldn't be represented, or that it is overrepresented, and other ones should be represented instead overrepresenting them because of potatoes. In fact, the excuse often have a racist reasoning: that because of being from a certain ethnicity they are a victim/poor/less skilled/worse/need help because of their ethnicity.

To the 1st bolded......people who playtest the game shouldn't be used to consult on how a character should be designed and created. That's not their role. Just like your military vet expert example, there's people that companies can consult to flesh out cultural things. It's okay. These companies or individuals exist for a reason and it's not the end of the world or a bad thing.

And to the 2nd bolded (I do like you as a poster so don't take this the wrong way), you're just wrong here. It is racist or at the very least racially insensitive to not include people that should be represented in a certain neighborhood. In the poster's example above London, UK is 54% White, 21% Asian,14% Black, and 12% Mixed or Other. Showing images of the students at his school and "ONLY" showing the white kids isn't done on accident. And to tell a person that they shouldn't care about that (when they aren't white) is weird. Why act as if only white people are educated at the school and area, when it's 100% not true?

 

[onQ123]

I dont know how it can happen but game budgets really need to be brought down some how.
I remember a few years ago EA and Ubisoft were talking about consoles and PC's being so good at pushing poluygon counts this gen that studios would be able to use 3D scanners to scan objects and create a ready made asset very quick, saving a ton of money as artists building assets from scratch takes time and money, in fact asset building is the most time consuming and expensive part of development.
It doesnt seem to really of had an effect though so far.

A.I & Full Ray tracing will bring down the development cost a lot

 

[RickMasters]

One word: unsustainable

Agree. Is this. It why devs say games should cost more? Because I go here kinds of costs.



I think most people here are happy to brush it under the rug citing Sonys sales figures….. but I think it’s pretty obvious there’s more to it than that.

I think we will see another increase in the price of games in about a year or two….. and then another….. when this reality sets in, it will be interesting to hear how people feel about the cost of physical vs digital vs subscription. And all I’m gonna say is of the big three wil probably be in a better position than the other two when that’s a convo people are ready to have around here.


I’m gonna call it now though….. game prices will rise…. Subscriptions will seem even pretty appealing to most people, and the company with the most AAA will surely sustain themselves and there customers better than others. We’ll see, though…. But I think it’s obvious where things are going.

 

[RickMasters]

A.I & Full Ray tracing will bring down the development cost a lot

May also put people out of jobs. All the same…. I think it’s inevitable

 

[mckmas8808]

Agree. Is this. It why devs say games should cost more? Because I go here kinds of costs.



I think most people here are happy to brush it under the rug citing Sonys sales figures….. but I think it’s pretty obvious there’s more to it than that.

I think we will see another increase in the price of games in about a year or two….. and then another….. when this reality sets in, it will be interesting to hear how people feel about the cost of physical vs digital vs subscription. And all I’m gonna say is of the big three wil probably be in a better position than the other two when that’s a convo people are ready to have around here.


I’m gonna call it now though….. game prices will rise…. Subscriptions will seem even pretty appealing to most people, and the company with the most AAA will surely sustain themselves and there customers better than others. We’ll see, though…. But I think it’s obvious where things are going.

Wouldn't the better way to go be using A.I. for some things to lower cost? And wouldn't more subscription services make gaming less sustainable? I mean how can you approve of Elder Scrolls 6 costing $500 million if it's only going to sell 5 million copies, because it's on PC and Xbox gamepass and it's not going to be on a Nintendo or Playstation hardware?

 

[RickMasters]

Wouldn't the better way to go be using A.I. for some things to lower cost? And wouldn't more subscription services make gaming less sustainable? I mean how can you approve of Elder Scrolls 6 costing $500 million if it's only going to sell 5 million copies, because it's on PC and Xbox gamepass and it's not going to be on a Nintendo or Playstation hardware?

Firstly we don’t know what the final cost of ES6 wil be or what kind of advancements will take place during its development that will streamline those costs.


Secondly yes, AI will lower dev costs but that will also mean less in-house artists needed. People are going to get fired once it has settled its place in the workflow of art asset development. That is unavoidable. I’m just saying, is all……



Thirdly is not my place to “ approve” ES6 Exclusivity but it’s clearly In interests of MS/Xbox to do so if they are in the business of growing subs… which they clearly are…. The Xbox… much like the windows based PC is merely an option they give you. You can buy a windows live eve or you can buy an Xbox in order to play their games. Pretty simple math.


I mean…. Wouldn’t it be great if I could play Mario legally on my PC? Or Zelda? Why stop at Xbox games? Why limit that notion of thinking to just Xbox? Would it not benefit Sony to also put their games on other platforms like the PC?….. oh wait?…. Never mind… how bout Nintendo? I live their model and tradition but how kings that gonna last? What with a new generation of gamers who don’t really care about a branded box Under the TV that plays specific brand games? It’s an old idea to them. And that’s who these companies have to sell games to in the future….. I’ll say it again though…. It will be my resting to see which of the big thre adapt best to the demands of the new generation of consumer. Because we ain’t eh majority anymore.

 

[mckmas8808]

This does make me wonder how Alan Wake 2 got made by with $55 million! That's crazy. Is their labor just that cheap?

 

[mckmas8808]

Firstly we don’t know what the final cost of ES6 wil be or what kind of advancements will take place during its development that will streamline those costs.


Secondly yes, AI will lower dev costs but that will also mean less in-house artists needed. People are going to get fired once it has settled its place in the workflow of art asset development. That is unavoidable. I’m just saying, is all……



Thirdly is not my place to “ approve” ES6 Exclusivity but it’s clearly In interests of MS/Xbox to do so if they are in the business of growing subs… which they clearly are…. The Xbox… much like the windows based PC is merely an option they give you. You can buy a windows live eve or you can buy an Xbox in order to play their games. Pretty simple math.


I mean…. Wouldn’t it be great if I could play Mario legally on my PC? Or Zelda? Why stop at Xbox games? Why limit that notion of thinking to just Xbox? Would it not benefit Sony to also put their games on other platforms like the PC?….. oh wait?…. Never mind… how bout Nintendo? I live their model and tradition but how kings that gonna last? What with a new generation of gamers who don’t really care about a branded box Under the TV that plays specific brand games? It’s an old idea to them. And that’s who these companies have to sell games to in the future….. I’ll say it again though…. It will be my resting to see which of the big thre adapt best to the demands of the new generation of consumer. Because we ain’t eh majority anymore.

The bolded is true, but even more people will be fired if your average AAA game starts to cost $200 million in a few years. And to your final question, no it wouldn't benefit Nintendo to put Mario and Zelda games on PC. And so far the kids (and adults) really really care about that brand underneath their TV. And it's not an old idea to all kids. Is it true that more kids are just getting a PC, instead of a specific console? Yes, but that's more to do with PC hardware and software getting easier to use and Steam (Thank you Valve).

But console model is alive a kicking and doing better than ever. You'll see with the Switch 2.

 

[JaksGhost]

This does make me wonder how Alan Wake 2 got made by with $55 million! That's crazy. Is their labor just that cheap?

Labor and cost of living are both cheaper in Finland in comparison to their US counterparts for the same jobs.

 

[DeathGuise]

It doesn't have to be this way. These studios burn money on the stupidest shit.

First three responses to this were the same shilling sentiment by different NPC's

 

[mckmas8808]

Labor and cost of living are both cheaper in Finland in comparison to their US counterparts for the same jobs.

Wow, that's crazy. It seems like the same game made in California would cost $125 million. I wonder if the housing cost are close to 3 times less in Finland than it is in San Francisco or San Mateo.

 

[Woopah]

Who knows, $10 million might not be that far off with their Sweet Baby Inc cost, removal of woke content for the Middle East release, in office ESG meetings, discussions, what ever else it entails would all take time and in turn cost money.

Americans seem to love pushing LGBTQ+, race, having everyone feel like their represented in a game. They have forgotten about fantasy, imagination and escapism.

Thankfully gaming has many avenues to navigate around these products. I can call these things out if I don't agree with or like it, just as those who want it can praise it.

When you play games with straight people, do you think they are "pushing heterosexuality"?

Doesn't make sense race has nothing to do with the writing skills. In this case, should a deer would have written Bambi? And should they hire criminals to write games like GTA? CoD devs should go to war before making the game? It doesn't make sense, it's fiction. Writers, actors, devs, etc. represent stuff and there's absolutely nothing wrong on representing (or not including) whatever they consider.


I assume that in Chinese schools most if not all of the people represented will be Asian, and Nigerian schools most if not all the people represented will be black. Because most people in China are Asian and most people in Nigeria are black. In the same way that most people in England or Europe are white, so makes sense that most if not all people represented there may be white and there's nothing wrong with it.

If due to white signaling want to represent some minorities or whatever you can just go and do it. No need to have consultant for it. In case of a deaf character using the signs language then yes, you'll need someone who knows how it works because it's a different language but that's all (half deaf dev here).

So when Sucker Punch was making Ghosts of Tsushima, you would consider all their research and talking to people who knew the culture as a complete waste of time?

I have some friends working on a Battlefield/CoD like shooter who recently hired consultants who worked for CoD, basically weapon experts from USA that allowed them to test the weapons and save their sound etc. We're Europeans don't have military guns in the supermarket), so in this case makes sense and is needed.

But to include a black, gay, lgbt, deaf character, etc. you don't need a consultant (or woke censors, which often is the case for these 'inclusivity consultants') because there are already playtests to get feedback from random people and particularly from the main target user groups.

My point was that statically white people is the default in UK (81.7%) or USA (75.5% for whatever 'white alone' means, they also have a 'White alone, not Hispanic or Latino' group and for some reason they don't consider the white Latin people as white), so it's normal that to represent people from there they choose/default to white. In the same way than in China may default to Asian and to black in Congo. Not because of racism, but because it's what they are used to see around. Even if in that particular neighborhood/school have more diversity.

And there's nothing wrong with it, and people shouldn't give a fuck about it. Because to represent the majority of the population is normal and not racist. Racist is to say that certain ethnicity shouldn't be represented, or that it is overrepresented, and other ones should be represented instead overrepresenting them because of potatoes. In fact, the excuse often have a racist reasoning: that because of being from a certain ethnicity they are a victim/poor/less skilled/worse/need help because of their ethnicity.

No one in this thread is saying its bad to represent the majority. What is bad is when only majorities are represented and minorities are just ignored.

 

[onQ123]

May also put people out of jobs. All the same…. I think it’s inevitable

Yeah it could also cause another video game crash if we get flooded with knockoff games that will destroy the value of games .

 

[bender]

I do wonder if the Marvel movie crash will eventually catchup with Sony/Insomniac though I suppose it is a lesser issue with focusing on the most popular of franchises.

 

[DeepEnigma]

May also put people out of jobs. All the same…. I think it’s inevitable

That's why I laugh at these AI coding commercials from IBM that shows a chick using it to to speed through some code, so she can leave work early and the male workmate looked stupefied.

No propaganda, nice try. They'll just eliminate her lazy ass zoomer self and give his harder working ass her workload with the AI easy button.

She'll be out of the job.

Yeah it could also cause another video game crash if we get flooded with knockoff games that will destroy the value of games .

I know such a service for that !!

 

[OccamsLightsaber]

Game studio in California hires experts from NY to ensure the diverse communities in NY are properly represented. Gamers proceed to lose their minds as if doing research and due diligence is the corner that should be cut.

Sounds like you guys would have wanted Assassin's Creed Valhalla consultants to be hired from local park larpers.

 

[Bodom78]

When you play games with straight people, do you think they are "pushing heterosexuality"?

I don't think about it nor do I care to when playing video games. That's what makes all this Western DEI shoehorning into the medium all the more annoying and irrelevant to me.

 

[StealthGoblin]

I don't think about it nor do I care to when playing video games. That's what makes all this Western DEI shoehorning into the medium all the more annoying and irrelevant to me.

With an attitude like that I'm assuming all you want are games with heterosexual men in them? Because that's what you'd largely get if no-one cared to the same extent.

I personally liked learning about Mile's culture, I thought playing as Selene in Returnal was refreshing, I empathised with Kratos' try and atone for his parenting failures, and I absolutely adored being submerged in the culture and history of Ghost of Tsushima.

Variety is the slice of life.

 

[Panajev2001a]

With an attitude like that I'm assuming all you want are games with heterosexual men in them? Because that's what you'd largely get if no-one cared to the same extent.

One has to hope there is a happy medium though. A correction manoeuvre hardly stays for long as default without push back growing more and more. Representation matters, but to the point where you will never be able to put yourself in the shoes of someone not looking like you? That is not sustainable nor desirable for the long term. We are still in the phase of over compensating going into fantasy land more than matching reality or real life like scenarios.
Miles’ father was a non corrupt police officer and Spider-man helped good cops too (there are good cops, right?) and Spider-man 2 worried about being cop-propaganda and results is there are hardly police officers around at all.
Population wise, https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/newyorkcitynewyork/PST045222 + tourism, NYC should look diverse yes (very very much so), but you are still talking about 38% “white” people (excludes mixed which may still “appear” to be in the same category).

Btw, hiring experts that know the area you are depicting in detail plus visiting the area for more than just a few days helps a lot, I agree.

I think people have an issue with forced and sudden turns: if Aunt May suddenly was revealed as a closeted gay person that was undergoing hormone therapy to transition, Mary Jane and Felicia eloped together, Peter discovered he was secretly Patricia inside all along, etc… this is not what they did when they created Miles Morales and I give them credit for that.

I personally liked learning about Mile's culture, I thought playing as Selene in Returnal was refreshing, I empathised with Kratos' try and atone for his parenting failures, and I absolutely adored being submerged in the culture and history of Ghost of Tsushima.

Variety is the slice of life.

Agreed, I liked all those aspects and choices. Creating Miles Morales as a character was a brilliant idea, especially if it does not come with taking Peter Parker down a peg or two just to elevate Miles. They did give him quite flashy and strong new powers (invisibility and the “venom” strike) to help giving him a coolness boost, but he is not being propped up in a bad way at all.

 

[Woopah]

I don't think about it nor do I care to when playing video games. That's what makes all this Western DEI shoehorning into the medium all the more annoying and irrelevant to me.

Straight people exist, bisexual people exist and gay people exist.

So why is it shoehorning or irrelevant for a game to feature gay people or bisexual people? It should be seen as completely normal, just like when a game features straight people.

 

[Bodom78]

With an attitude like that I'm assuming all you want are games with heterosexual men in them? Because that's what you'd largely get if no-one cared to the same extent.

Straight people exist, bisexual people exist and gay people exist.

So why is it shoehorning or irrelevant for a game to feature gay people or bisexual people? It should be seen as completely normal, just like when a game features straight people.

This is generally the direction discussions go when you do not like Americas brand of diversity pushed onto you

I'm open to creativity, fantasy, stories. If they have non white, bi, homosexual characters it's irrelevant to me. It can be done creatively and handled well, or shoehorned in like how I felt it was handled in both Spiderman games.

I'm currently playing through and loving Cookie Cutter which starts with a lesbian human/android love story where you play as a chubby female android going to rescue her female human creator/lover.

She even has a not so subtle talking vagina sidekick. The artwork, style and even the simple story have sucked me in and I'm enjoying my time with it and looking to 100% it in the coming days.

 

[yurinka]

So when Sucker Punch was making Ghosts of Tsushima, you would consider all their research and talking to people who knew the culture as a complete waste of time?

No, because being a historical game in addition to get a ton of reference material they had to filter it knowing it was relatively historically accurate, so had to get historians experts on this specific area and age, plus maybe their weapons and stuff.

No one in this thread is saying its bad to represent the majority. What is bad is when only majorities are represented and minorities are just ignored.

Yes, you are saying it's bad and that certain group (in this case the majority) should be at least partially removed to include minorities just because of their ethnicity, gender etc. Which is racist, sexist, etc.

Which often leads to forced inclusion of poorly written tokenism filler characters, who are only there because of posing / white signalling who add nothing other than to waste time with a character that adds nothing, just to say they represented certain minorities. That leads to worse narrative and pacing because often to try to solve it they try to give these characters more protagonism and justification to be there, so the game/movie/etc. topic ends being less about what was supposed to be and ends being more about the minority and whatever they want to represent them (like the angry and ugly woman who is always right and stronger and smarter than all the men there, etc)

To the 1st bolded......people who playtest the game shouldn't be used to consult on how a character should be designed and created. That's not their role. Just like your military vet expert example, there's people that companies can consult to flesh out cultural things. It's okay. These companies or individuals exist for a reason and it's not the end of the world or a bad thing.

People who playtest a game are not to consult the devs, they are to play and verify -before it's completed and released- if the different player types who will play the game likes it or not and what specific points they like it or not. And if there are some issues spotted, if there's time, people and budget available they get fixed.

Writers, designers, artists etc. are professionals who already know how to do their job and how to research their stuff. No need to from a certain gender, sexual orientation, culture, religion, ethnicity, job, country of origin, etc. to properly make a character of that group. They worked during many years representing fictional characters who aren't like themselves. In some specific case like when making a game of a very specific topic they have no idea about -as may be the case of a historical game set in an age or culture they don't know a lot- may make sense to get a expert consultant about that topic.

But don't need to get a consultant to know how to make a red haired character, a brown skinned character or a gay character. In the same way they don't need it to make a cop, a magician, a horse or a zombie.

And to the 2nd bolded (I do like you as a poster so don't take this the wrong way), you're just wrong here. It is racist or at the very least racially insensitive to not include people that should be represented in a certain neighborhood. In the poster's example above London, UK is 54% White, 21% Asian,14% Black, and 12% Mixed or Other. Showing images of the students at his school and "ONLY" showing the white kids isn't done on accident. And to tell a person that they shouldn't care about that (when they aren't white) is weird. Why act as if only white people are educated at the school and area, when it's 100% not true?

I think the most likely is that someone was asked to take photos of the kids and since wasn't a racist simply took photos without considering the ethnicity of the kids. Turned out that the kids randomly represented turned out to be from the majority, something that statistically is very likely.

But then there some racist people who clasifies people by ethnicity and thought that it was wrong to represent this amount of this and this amount of that. Or decided that for some reason it was important that the photos instead of being from random kids from the school without caring about their ethnicity had to represent the minorities in the school, maybe even overeprensenting them. When they are just meant to be a few decorative photos and not a statement of the type of people who gets educated there, or who the school wants to be educated there or something like that.

Btw, regarding minorities representation, did the list only included only ethnicities? How about deaf, blind, kids in wheelchairs, down syndrome, people particularly fat or skin, tall or short, etc? Did they also took into accound hair or eyes color? Because depending how it goes you had to make 800 photos to represent everyone.

I think many of these labels and controversies are dumb and only makes some people of certain group feel to be inferior/a victim/abused/etc. and other one guilty when they didn't do anything bad, and to argue about random stupid things like if whoever appears in a photo has my ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, skin/hair/eyes/whatever color. People shouldn't give a fuck about if the other people is from this or that group, and should understand that due to statistics the type of people who is majority somewhere may be more represented there and there's nothing wrong if you aren't represented there.

 

[Woopah]

This is generally the direction discussions go when you do not like Americas brand of diversity pushed onto you

I'm open to creativity, fantasy, stories. If they have non white, bi, homosexual characters it's irrelevant to me. It can be done creatively and handled well, or shoehorned in like how I felt it was handled in both Spiderman games.

I'm currently playing through and loving Cookie Cutter which starts with a lesbian human/android love story where you play as a chubby female android going to rescue her female human creator/lover.

She even has a not so subtle talking vagina sidekick. The artwork, style and even the simple story have sucked me in and I'm enjoying my time with it and looking to 100% it in the coming days.

If your complaint is about the style of representation, and not the act of representation itself, then that's completely fine.

What should Insomniac have done differently with Spiderman's LGBTQ+ characters to make them less pushed and shoehorned?

 

[David Ricardo]

They literally profited from the last two Spiderman games that they made. Like.........literally.

Each game costs more to make thant the one before. One dud and you lose hundreds of millions. Several duds in a row and you are dead.

 

[Woopah]

No, because being a historical game in addition to get a ton of reference material they had to filter it knowing it was relatively historically accurate, so had to get historians experts on this specific area and age, plus maybe their weapons and stuff.

And they also had to get input from people who were familiar with the culture, not just people familiar with the history.

To give a modern(ish) example, the writers of the original Fresh Prince of Bel Air made sure to consult with Black Americans about their scripts, because they themselves were not Black Americans.

Yes, you are saying it's bad and that certain group (in this case the majority) should be at least partially removed to include minorities just because of their ethnicity, gender etc. Which is racist, sexist, etc.

Where did I say that majority should be partially removed? In Stealth Goblin's example it was the minorities who were fully removed, not the majority.

The games industry produces a lot of games each year. There's plenty of room for everyone to be represented.

Which often leads to forced inclusion of poorly written tokenism filler characters, who are only there because of posing / white signalling who add nothing other than to waste time with a character that adds nothing, just to say they represented certain minorities. That leads to worse narrative and pacing because often to try to solve it they try to give these characters more protagonism and justification to be there, so the game/movie/etc. topic ends being less about what was supposed to be and ends being more about the minority and whatever they want to represent them (like the angry and ugly woman who is always right and stronger and smarter than all the men there, etc).

I'm against tokenism too. If minorities are included just to tick a box, then that is bad. Minority/female protagonists and side characters should be just as well written as majority/male characters.

So instead of having an angry, ugly woman who is always right, it could be an angry, ugly woman who has flaws and then develops as a character over the course of the game.

In summary, the solution to poor quality representation is better quality representation, not less representation.

 

[yurinka]

And they also had to get input from people who were familiar with the culture, not just people familiar with the history.

To give a modern(ish) example, the writers of the original Fresh Prince of Bel Air made sure to consult with Black Americans about their scripts, because they themselves were not Black Americans.

Notice that in Fresh Prince of Bel Air all the characters were black, with exception of a few white guys, who always were bad guys or dumb guys. I loved the show but it was racist.

The show was coproduced by Quincy Jones's company, and had a good portion of black producers and executive producers, not only the cast. I don't think they needed external consultants.

Also, both were contemporary North Americans. Being professional writers they should be familiar with their own culture, they weren't making a series of Ancient Rome or Japan.

I'm against tokenism too. If minorities are included just to tick a box, then that is bad. Minority/female protagonists and side characters should be just as well written as majority/male characters.

So instead of having an angry, ugly woman who is always right, it could be an angry, ugly woman who has flaws and then develops as a character over the course of the game.

In summary, the solution to poor quality representation is better quality representation, not less representation.

I think the point is having great products, history, characters, actors etc. independently who they represent and who wrote them.

I mean, nobody complained about tokenism or forced inclusion in GoT. Or when they did the Blade original movie. Or in the Jackie Chan, Brue Lee, Alien movies, etc. Or I don't know, movies like Pulp Fiction. Or The Last of Us 1. Because everything was well done.

And same should happen in games/movies with white males only. If it's well done, it's well done.

Both cases are better than when forced tokenism is poorly introduced. Poor quality representation is worse than no representation.

Where did I say that majority should be partially removed? In Stealth Goblin's example it was the minorities who were fully removed, not the majority.

I don't remember if it was you or Steath Goblin. My point was that someone was complaining that all the people from the photos were from the majority and that (I assume part) of them should be replaced because of their ethnicity and to be replaced by another one because of their ethnicity.

The games industry produces a lot of games each year. There's plenty of room for everyone to be represented.

I'm a red haired/blonde bue eyed white guy, pretty much the average standard European console gamer. Considering EU is PS's main market and that there's a white majority in USA (NA is their 2nd market), maybe it's the 1st or 2nd group for PS owners. Pretty much their target user.

How many main characters of recent AAA released in recent times look like me, specially from Sony? Pretty much none. You have to go back until maybe the Infamous games, or count a sidekick as Krato's dumb son. I also wear glasses, and now I only remember Bayonetta or the Half Life guy wearing glasses, and I think Sony never had a characters using glasses. Same goes with characters being half deaf like me, or born in my country. Do I care? No.

And yes, I think the industry is huge and there should be games for everyone and to represent everyone. But I don't think everyone should be represented in all games because that leads to bloat games and narratives with poorly written tokenism characters who are just there to include X group.

 

[Woopah]

Notice that in Fresh Prince of Bel Air all the characters were black, with exception of a few white guys, who always were bad guys or dumb guys. I loved the show but it was racist.

The show was coproduced by Quincy Jones's company, and had a good portion of black producers and executive producers, not only the cast. I don't think they needed external consultants.

The show had multiple black characters who were bad or dumb, and multuple white characters who weren't. It was a show that dealt with racism, but was not racist itself.

If a developer or studio already has people working for them who know the culture they are trying to portray, then that's great. If you don't have that knowledge internally, then you need to go external.

Edit: and please can you show me where I said majorities should be "partially removed"?

 

[StealthGoblin]

The show had multiple black characters who were bad or dumb, and multuple white characters who weren't. It was a show that dealt with racism, but was not racist itself.

If a developer or studio already has people working for them who know the culture they are trying to portray, then that's great. If you don't have that knowledge internally, then you need to go external.

Which is why the writing to GOW 2018 and Ragnarok feels flat. No Scandinavians representing Scandinavians, and very American teen drama writing and phrasing.

Outside of Kratos, everyone should be speaking with a Northern European/Skandi accent with that form of dialect present.

It would certainly have helped make some of the cringe family drama more palatable as it would have been weightier.

 

[Woopah]

Which is why the writing to GOW 2018 and Ragnarok feels flat. No Scandinavians representing Scandinavians, and very American teen drama writing and phrasing.

Outside of Kratos, everyone should be speaking with a Northern European/Skandi accent with that form of dialect present.

It would certainly have helped make some of the cringe family drama more palatable as it would have been weightier.

I did enjoy the story of Ragnarok, but I totally get your point here. I guess Kratos should have had a Greek accent.

 

[DeepEnigma]

I did enjoy the story of Ragnarok, but I totally get your point here. I guess Kratos should have had a Greek accent.

But nobody had a Greek accent in the original games.

 

[JaksGhost]

Notice that in Fresh Prince of Bel Air all the characters were black, with exception of a few white guys, who always were bad guys or dumb guys. I loved the show but it was racist.

The show was coproduced by Quincy Jones's company, and had a good portion of black producers and executive producers, not only the cast. I don't think they needed external consultants.

Now tell us how Fresh Prince of Bel Air was racist?!

 

[Woopah]

But nobody had a Greek accent in the original games.

That's what I was thinking. It would have been cool if the original games did have Greek accents.

 

[Dorfdad]

Man oh man the development headcount costs are ridiculous! I get it that talent cost, but just looking at those stats I can’t argue with the front office looking to outsource/ use AI and cheaper methods / generic engines for games going forward! 65% of the games cost goes to directly supporting staff!

We’re getting $100 games nextgen aren’t we

 

[StealthGoblin]

But nobody had a Greek accent in the original games.

I think with the transition to 2018 they could have kept Kratos with his American but had everyone else be Skandi. It would have emphasized how out of place he was.

 

[yurinka]

Now tell us how Fresh Prince of Bel Air was racist?!

I already said it: all characters were black, with only a few white ones who always were either bad/dumb/freak/etc. guys.

 

[mckmas8808]

I don't think about it nor do I care to when playing video games. That's what makes all this Western DEI shoehorning into the medium all the more annoying and irrelevant to me.

It's only seems to be shoehorning if you disagree with the types of people that are in the game. Do you feel the deaf girl in Spiderman is shoehorned?

With an attitude like that I'm assuming all you want are games with heterosexual men in them? Because that's what you'd largely get if no-one cared to the same extent.

I personally liked learning about Mile's culture, I thought playing as Selene in Returnal was refreshing, I empathised with Kratos' try and atone for his parenting failures, and I absolutely adored being submerged in the culture and history of Ghost of Tsushima.

Variety is the slice of life.

100% this!!! And the fact is, gamers have clearly accepted this the same way you have. There's a reason overall Sony's games have been huge successes. Variety is not the main reason, but it plays a part.

 

[mckmas8808]

Each game costs more to make thant the one before. One dud and you lose hundreds of millions. Several duds in a row and you are dead.

Somewhat true. It's why they've decided to swap back and forth between mega-huge releases and a smaller release. Hence why Miles Morales exists and they are making Venom.

Notice that in Fresh Prince of Bel Air all the characters were black, with exception of a few white guys, who always were bad guys or dumb guys. I loved the show but it was racist.

The show was coproduced by Quincy Jones's company, and had a good portion of black producers and executive producers, not only the cast. I don't think they needed external consultants.

Also, both were contemporary North Americans. Being professional writers they should be familiar with their own culture, they weren't making a series of Ancient Rome or Japan.


I think the point is having great products, history, characters, actors etc. independently who they represent and who wrote them.

I mean, nobody complained about tokenism or forced inclusion in GoT. Or when they did the Blade original movie. Or in the Jackie Chan, Brue Lee, Alien movies, etc. Or I don't know, movies like Pulp Fiction. Or The Last of Us 1. Because everything was well done.

And same should happen in games/movies with white males only. If it's well done, it's well done.

Both cases are better than when forced tokenism is poorly introduced. Poor quality representation is worse than no representation.


I don't remember if it was you or Steath Goblin. My point was that someone was complaining that all the people from the photos were from the majority and that (I assume part) of them should be replaced because of their ethnicity and to be replaced by another one because of their ethnicity.


I'm a red haired/blonde bue eyed white guy, pretty much the average standard European console gamer. Considering EU is PS's main market and that there's a white majority in USA (NA is their 2nd market), maybe it's the 1st or 2nd group for PS owners. Pretty much their target user.

How many main characters of recent AAA released in recent times look like me, specially from Sony? Pretty much none. You have to go back until maybe the Infamous games, or count a sidekick as Krato's dumb son. I also wear glasses, and now I only remember Bayonetta or the Half Life guy wearing glasses, and I think Sony never had a characters using glasses. Same goes with characters being half deaf like me, or born in my country. Do I care? No.

And yes, I think the industry is huge and there should be games for everyone and to represent everyone. But I don't think everyone should be represented in all games because that leads to bloat games and narratives with poorly written tokenism characters who are just there to include X group.

With the school pictures thing, I think you missed the point. The guy was explaining that the school was diverse yet only white kids had their pictures chosen to "represent" the school. We let the thread know time and time again that the school and the overall area is diverse. I think it was 53% white, 35% minority, and 12% either mixed or other. There's zero reason as to why only the white kids were picked. The poster was trying to explain that sometimes this happens due to explicit bias to one's own race since everybody on the staff was also white.

I already said it: all characters were black, with only a few white ones who always were either bad/dumb/freak/etc. guys.

Which version of Fresh Prince are you talking about?

 

[Monkfish877]

They justify it by making money.

What I meant so say was, justifying the game's budget in comparison to some thing like Horizon forbidden west's budget which was at least $100 million cheaper. They should move Insomniac out of California if it's costing too much to make games there, but I don't know how feasible that is though.

 

[ReBurn]

What I meant so say was, justifying the game's budget in comparison to some thing like Horizon forbidden west's budget which was at least $100 million cheaper. They should move Insomniac out of California if it's costing too much to make games there, but I don't know how feasible that is though.

Moving the company is going to be a lot easier than moving the people who make the games. If the company moved out of California games probably wouldn't be the same.

 

[JaksGhost]

I already said it: all characters were black, with only a few white ones who always were either bad/dumb/freak/etc. guys.

So it wasn't racist, you're just grasping at straws. Because by your logic all of the predominantly white shows that portrayed other minorities groups as the same are racist, but you're not going to argue that are you? You're sensitivity is also showing right now by the way.

 

[twilo99]

What I meant so say was, justifying the game's budget in comparison to some thing like Horizon forbidden west's budget which was at least $100 million cheaper. They should move Insomniac out of California if it's costing too much to make games there, but I don't know how feasible that is though.

I understood what you meant, the reasoning is.. making money. Why care what the budget is if they can pull a profit?

Are you saying they should be more efficient and make even more money? Of course, I'm sure they all want that..

 

[Monkfish877]

I understood what you meant, the reasoning is.. making money. Why care what the budget is if they can pull a profit?

Are you saying they should be more efficient and make even more money? Of course, I'm sure they all want that..

The constant pissing and moaning about budgets being too high is what's irritating me, yes they should be more efficient in how they produce their games if it's costing too much.

 

[nkarafo]

Even more so when that family is actually Afro-Latino and has a mix of black and Puerto Rican culture. Why wouldn't a creative team NOT want to do it right? Completely agree with you.

What if the creative team are comprised of non-white people? Do they pay some white culture experts to write white people right in their projects?

Can't believe people are falling for this crap.

 

[StealthGoblin]

What I meant so say was, justifying the game's budget in comparison to some thing like Horizon forbidden west's budget which was at least $100 million cheaper. They should move Insomniac out of California if it's costing too much to make games there, but I don't know how feasible that is though.

You want to move the studio? All that expertise? Company culture? The technology?

That would not work. Whether it's a good thing or not, part of the reason why Insomniac are one of the best developers in the world is their location.

 

[StealthGoblin]

What if the creative team are comprised of non-white people? Do they pay some white culture experts to write white people right in their projects?

Can't believe people are falling for this crap.

To do date that hasn't been an issue. Wanna know why? There isn't a development team out there of Insomniac's size that is only comprised of black people.

What a fucking shit strawman argument.

 

[Woopah]

What if the creative team are comprised of non-white people? Do they pay some white culture experts to write white people right in their projects?

Can't believe people are falling for this crap.

I would say they should yes. For example, if a team in South Korea were making a game set in Romania, they should get some expertise on that country and culture.

On a similar note, the team behind GTA VI is largely based in Scotland, so they should talk to people familiar with Florida and the culture there.