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[D.Lo]

So here's the question, then: what about the community makes you think it's all about test scores and no life balance?

You'd have to ask the parents, it is possible they're assuming that based on skin colours.

But some posts in this thread speak of experiences stating asian or immigrant parents are at least more likely to make it more about test scores, for example:

I was a (white) personal tutor in Markham, Ontario for 2 years.
...
In my 2 years, I tutored dozens of children of all nationalities. With one exception, white parents only hired a tutor when their kid was flunking or close to it. The majority of my Asian students were already C+ to A students before I came into the picture.
...
A lot of Asian parents take a proactive stance in their child's education because they know what's required to hit their kid's academic potential (the fact that they can push academics too forcefully is another matter). White parents who want their kids to hit the same performance marks need to take the same steps.

immigrants focus way less on sports/fun and more into academics and "other things that make you look smart" i.e. piano/violin, model UN, hospital volunteer etc.

The core problem is however definitely the American school system and college system being terrible, forcing these realities onto people.

 

[KonradLaw]

I don;t know enough about american college system to be sure, but if by moving you can really help the college chances of your kid then I don;t blame them. Your kid's interest take precedence over some strangers in the same community.

That said, it seems like a really shitty educational system. Being thrown into a highschool with higher standards than your own will help the kid get smarter, so to see it lower his/her chances of college is completely ridiculous.

Why don't universities simply do entry exams that decide who's best qualified?

 

[numble]

You'd have to ask the parents, it is possible they're assuming that based on skin colours.

But some posts in this thread speak of experiences stating asian or immigrant parents are at least more likely to make it more about test scores, for example:





The core problem is however definitely the American school system and college system being terrible, forcing these realities onto people.

I don;t know enough about american college system to be sure, but if by moving you can really help the college chances of your kid then I don;t blame them. Your kid's interest take precedence over some strangers in the same community.

That said, it seems like a really shitty educational system. Being thrown into a highschool with higher standards than your own will help the kid get smarter, so to see it lower his/her chances of college is completely ridiculous.

Why don't universities simply do entry exams that decide who's best qualified?

It is actually an argument that a college being more holistic in admissions is doing a better job at finding qualified students. The person from a poor school with poor resources that excels despite the poor environment maybe would have even better academic qualifications if they had the same resources as the wealthy, tutoring, schools with plenty of resources and good teachers, etc. A poor person in an inner city school who is the top of their class likely scores lower on tests than the wealthy student whose parents spend thousands of dollars for them to have individual tutors help them study over and over for the tests.

The issue is that in the article in the OP, parents are trying to game the system.

 

[capitalCORN]

Well, would you look at this roundabout? It's the same tired excuses. If black kids were outperforming the white kids academically, would this kind of argument really fly? Somehow the success of asians, against all the shit society puts us through, is toxic to the common culture? It's the same with the whole mythology around 'tight knit asian family' and 'asian unity', people don't really realize how toxic the whole thing really is. Do people call shit on other ethnicities sticking together, but somehow asians are exceptionally exclusionary? Society only accepts us on the basis that we are weak and 'eager pleasers', and any less than that is somehow a threat.

 

[down 2 orth]

Asian societies are homogeneous almost to an extreme, but I'd still prefer that to some clusterfuck suburban American town where it's blacks vs. whites vs. Hispanics. Fuck that noise.

 

[capitalCORN]

Asian societies are homogeneous almost to an extreme, but I'd still prefer that to some clusterfuck suburban American town where it's blacks vs. whites vs. Hispanics. Fuck that noise.

I don't get why there has to be confrontation. Can't people just get along?

 

[down 2 orth]

I don't get why there has to be confrontation. Can't people just get along?

Most people aren't smart enough to know they're being divided and conquered, but fortunately not all places are run that way. People can get along, but only in more cohesive societies.

 

[klonere]

I don't get why there has to be confrontation. Can't people just get along?

No people gotta win, even if winning means gaming the system for your kids.

 

[capitalCORN]

No people gotta win, even if winning means gaming the system for your kids.

Based on this article gaming the system isn't winning, just setting the bar lower.

 

[Otakumegane]

Remember that a lot of the East Asians here in America are actually those that already had the resources and level of education to succeed here.

The US immigration laws only selected the best and the brightest of the tech and engineering sectors and allowed them to immigrate here. The 2nd generation of this population being good at academia is expected. Read up on the exclusion of Asians in immigration until very recently.

 

[robox]

Asian societies are homogeneous almost to an extreme

what makes you say that??
if that is a generalization, that is gravely mistaken.
i can see this being meant to be japan and korea as a country, but anywhere else, this does not apply.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

The core problem is however definitely the American school system and college system being terrible, forcing these realities onto people.

How does this support that? The core problem is that there are TOO many overqualified people coming from the K-12 system and the top schools only have limited capacity. This would be a problem anywhere. So why are people not satisfied with "lesser" schools? Because they're lesser schools. There is no fundamental way to fix the issue. Even if other schools made huge leaps in recognition, there would still be a ranking and parents would still aim for the top ones

I don;t know enough about american college system to be sure, but if by moving you can really help the college chances of your kid then I don;t blame them. Your kid's interest take precedence over some strangers in the same community.

That said, it seems like a really shitty educational system. Being thrown into a highschool with higher standards than your own will help the kid get smarter, so to see it lower his/her chances of college is completely ridiculous.

Why don't universities simply do entry exams that decide who's best qualified?

Because it would be the exact same problem. Who do you think does well on entrance exams? The people who go to extra tutoring specifically for them. Your system would do the exact opposite of what you think it would. It's not the education system, it's the fact that certain areas have too many qualified kids and top schools only have so many open spots. Why are people not understanding this? Or am I misinterpreting what's going on?

 

[Fixed2BeBroken]

I'm not sure what ethics in tutoring are exactly or how a school looks at that, but if the goal is to get better grades, theres got to be pressure to do that.

that can't be a real thought.... seriously? tutoring being possibly considered unethical!?

 

[Simplet]

To white parents: Asian kids beat your kids even without extra tutoring. Deal with it.

I am baffled by these threads. Are you gleefully suggesting that Asians are just genetically smarter than white people, or what are you even trying to say?

 

[Jeronimo Jones]

Interesting. I've only read the excerpts and live not far from there, though I've never been.

I'm selfishly curious as to what home prices are looking like with all the flight. I'm black, engaged and we don't have kids yet.

 

[IvanJ]

Because it would be the exact same problem. Who do you think does well on entrance exams? The people who go to extra tutoring specifically for them. Your system would do the exact opposite of what you think it would. It's not the education system, it's the fact that certain areas have too many qualified kids and top schools only have so many open spots. Why are people not understanding this? Or am I misinterpreting what's going on?

Of course that kids that put in more work will do better on entrance exams. Kids that take tutoring lessons will still do better on entrance exams. That is not the issue and never will be.
As I read here, the entire issue is competition for top spots, and kids running away from tougher competition to worse schools where they would be closer to the top, increasing their enrollment chances.

Entrance exams would actually encourage those kids to stay at more competitive schools, as better students and better teachers would increase their scores and knowledge, increasing their chances to do well on entrance exams.

With entrance exams, you would than have, for example, 20% of "tough school" kids going to college, and only 1% of "easy school" kids going. So it wouldn't pay off to transfer schools just to gain advantage in enrolling, you would actually be at a disadvantage.

That is the way I see it.

 

[Mr. X]

What the fuck is that supposed mean??

Code for privileged

 

[UnemployedVillain]

I am baffled by these threads. Are you gleefully suggesting that Asians are just genetically smarter than white people, or what are you even trying to say?

Some kids are smarter than others, some kids work a lot harder, some are more self motivated, and it doesn't have to do with race. He's probably trying to say attributing it simply to some Asian kids getting tutoring that their kids don't is a weak excuse, or an attempt to find a reason why their kid couldn't possibly be the smartest one around. Take the parent complaining in the article about their kid's self esteem being negatively affected. Are we to believe she's the smartest person in her class? That there aren't smarter white kids? Why is it only the Asian ones being singled out?

 

[KingV]

that can't be a real thought.... seriously? tutoring being possibly considered unethical!?

I think you are just reacting to one sentence. You have two kids, both are equally smart, and have no learning disabilities and are doing well in school. One kids parents can afford to have a professional proofread their papers and help them with their home work, the other doesn't. Is that fair?

Unethical Is probably not the right term. We all acknowledge that it's wrong for poor neighborhoods to have worse schools, in general, but this is like a micro-version of that. I don't think it should be illegal or punished, but I can't blame parents for not wanting to play that game.

 

[synchronicity]

A shrinking world will always terrify xenophobes. But life doesn't care. Adapt to your ever-changing environment, or become expendable.

I truly don't understand such cultural narrow-mindedness. We live in a fascinating world with so many varying philosophies, customs and societies. I know familiarity is comfortable, but it's always exciting to experience something different and new. Why wouldn't anyone want to broaden their experience by getting to know people and things that are different from what they have already experienced?! How boring.

 

[rtcn63]

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Of course that kids that put in more work will do better on entrance exams. Kids that take tutoring lessons will still do better on entrance exams. That is not the issue and never will be.
As I read here, the entire issue is competition for top spots, and kids running away from tougher competition to worse schools where they would be closer to the top, increasing their enrollment chances.

Entrance exams would actually encourage those kids to stay at more competitive schools, as better students and better teachers would increase their scores and knowledge, increasing their chances to do well on entrance exams.

With entrance exams, you would than have, for example, 20% of "tough school" kids going to college, and only 1% of "easy school" kids going. So it wouldn't pay off to transfer schools just to gain advantage in enrolling, you would actually be at a disadvantage.

That is the way I see it.

Entrance exams would further penalize kids who don't go to these top schools. Schools are trying to reduce homogeneity in their student body, not increase it, and entrance exams basically say "If you're not at a top high school, good luck ever getting into a top university". At least that's how I see it playing out in Asian countries that institute them.

As someone who went to a top university, I can tell you the people from the private high schools and top school weren't always the ones who performed the best. In fact, I doubt there was very much correlation. The reason it's much harder to get in in a much more affluent and higher end K-12 environment, is because they have it that much easier in terms of everything else compared to someone who lives in a less well off environment and goes to a worse school. Better teachers means they score better, even when they might not necessarily be more capable. Better guidance counselors mean they're better prepared for college and more knowledgable about the admissions process, even when they might not necessarily be more qualified. A richer school and community means more opportunities for extracurriculars, even if they don't necessarily care about them or excel at them.

 

[capitalCORN]

I think you are just reacting to one sentence. You have two kids, both are equally smart, and have no learning disabilities and are doing well in school. One kids parents can afford to have a professional proofread their papers and help them with their home work, the other doesn't. Is that fair?

Unethical Is probably not the right term. We all acknowledge that it's wrong for poor neighborhoods to have worse schools, in general, but this is like a micro-version of that. I don't think it should be illegal or punished, but I can't blame parents for not wanting to play that game.

But priviledge is the American way! And the article isn't discussing cross district children. It's a middle class neighborhood. If one family puts up the money for tutoring, why can't the other follow suit?

 

[Lesath]

I grew up learning English as a second language because my parents didn't speak it. The highest education they ever got was high school, and they didn't have the sort of connections nor the knowledge of the education system here to guide me to success. But they did the best they could, spending their meager paychecks on placing me and my sister in a good private school, and whatever they could to give us a leg up besides.

And so before I see fleeing middle-class white folk complain about how we're driving up the competition too high, consider how when faced with this challenge, instead of making use of the resources you have to enhance your child's education, you'd rather use it to move away.

 

[noshten]

Just another point against the classical western education system - there would be far less stress on all children if Finland's education system starts being implemented elsewhere:

Finland’s brand new National Core Curriculum emphasizes a child’s individuality and says “children have the right to learn by playing and experience joy related to learning.” It says they should be encouraged to express their opinions, trust themselves, be open to new solutions, learn to handle unclear and conflicting information, consider things from different viewpoints, seek new information and review the way they think. Teachers are directed to give students daily feedback and measure them against their starting points, not other students. In grades one through seven, schools now have the option of dropping numerical grades in favor of verbal assessments. (Failing students will still receive a “fail” grade, and can be held back as a last resort.)

The new guidelines strengthen traditional roles of play and physical activity. Preschool and kindergarten students will continue to learn through songs, games, conversation and playful discovery, not military-style drilling and stress at ages 4, 5 or 6 as is increasingly the case in American schools. A number of studies have supported the advantages of play-based early education for children, including those from low-income backgrounds. Formal academic training in Finland will continue to start at age 7, when many children are best ready for it. That corresponds with research indicating that any advantage gained by earlier instruction, when children are not developmentally ready, washes out a few years later.

Finland is also continuing other policies that work: Primary school teachers will still have to earn master's degrees and undergo at least two years of in-classroom training by master teacher-trainers before being allowed to lead classes of their own. Grades one through nine will offer instruction not only in math, science and history, but also in two or three languages, physical education, music, visual arts, crafts and religion or ethics. And home economics, a rare subject in American schools, will be taught in grades seven, eight and nine.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opini...mmon-core-finland-us-schools-column/89511246/

 

[AndyD]

It actually kind of makes sense to game the high school system, and with it, college acceptance/scholarship chances. The stakes are just too high.

Better to be the best kid in a terrible average school than an average kid at a great school.

Yep.

That said, I went to middle and high school in John's Creek, the area they mention, albeit 20 years ago. And my parents still live there. They witness the transformation first hand.

Their (smallish) neighborhood is now a predominantly Indian neighborhood, and by that I mean a lot of Indian families, who are friends/relatives like to live together so they buy entire neighborhoods or streets. My parents have been approached by several neighbors who want to be the first to know if they want to sell as they have friends/family ready to buy in any condition. They are actually friends and co-workers with my parents who are both high level engineers at an international company, so they all live on good terms. But I can see how other white parents might not be comfortable. And they are all generally smart and successful people. Houses and standard of living is not cheap. It's raising the bar for the area for sure, and some just can't compete.

 

[SRG01]

Remember that a lot of the East Asians here in America are actually those that already had the resources and level of education to succeed here.

The US immigration laws only selected the best and the brightest of the tech and engineering sectors and allowed them to immigrate here. The 2nd generation of this population being good at academia is expected. Read up on the exclusion of Asians in immigration until very recently.

Huh? A huge chunk of the Chinese population immigrated here as poverty-level laborers during American/Canadian expansionist periods, as well as other waves of blue-collar workers from the 60s onwards. The same applies for Japanese and Korean populations as well, but in different socio-political scenarios.

The movement of super-rich East-Asian populations into North America is actually a very recent phenomenon.

 

[kswiston]

Just another point against the classical western education system - there would be far less stress on all children if Finland's education system starts being implemented elsewhere:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opini...mmon-core-finland-us-schools-column/89511246/

North Americans aren't going to give up their public education for 4-6 year olds. A lot of working class and middle class parents use it as free daycare, since the paid kind is ridiculously expensive.

Tests and homework, and desk work shouldn't start in kindergarten though.

 

[Stallion Dan]

Complain about Black kids bringing down grades

Complain about Asian kids bringing up grades.

What do you want?!

Private tutoring doesn't 'bring up grades'.

Asian kids aren't regular kids?

How did you read that as anything but privately tutored vs not privately tutored.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Just another point against the classical western education system - there would be far less stress on all children if Finland's education system starts being implemented elsewhere:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opini...mmon-core-finland-us-schools-column/89511246/

This has nothing to do with the topic at hand. At all

 

[Lil'DigiOp]

Really getting tired with lame ass white Americans bitching about everyone else winning except them....

Always a fucking problem when its not them winning in the system.

 

[AndyD]

Does class ranking actually affect college admission rates? I'd always figured universities normalized that stuff like how GPA means nothing anymore due to high schools giving extra points for taking AP/IB courses.

It's not even GPA, but being able to take IP classes (can only fit so many kids). Only the top kids can take those classes, and if you are no longer the cream of the crop you can't take those classes at all. So you can't list it on the college application and then you can't get the college credit for it. It does not mean the kids are idiots, just that some opportunities are closed to them now where they were open before.

 

[noshten]

North Americans aren't going to give up their public education for 4-6 year olds. A lot of working class and middle class parents use it as free daycare, since the paid kind is ridiculously expensive.

Tests and homework, and desk work shouldn't start in kindergarten though.

There is still school it's simply geared towards kids playing outside, developing social skills via interactions between each other and actual classes are no more than 2 hours a day. There isn't any homework or grades which is another benefit towards allowing limiting unhealthy competition between children.

This has nothing to do with the topic at hand. At all

encouraged to express their opinions, trust themselves, be open to new solutions, learn to handle unclear and conflicting information, consider things from different viewpoints, seek new information and review the way they think

The above has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand - except for the fact that kids brought up in such a environment at school might grow up focusing on parenting very differently than parents who are used to the current education model.

 

[Aiustis]

Really getting tired with lame ass white Americans bitching about everyone else winning except them....

Always a fucking problem when its not them winning in the system.

Really, they are used to being lazy and getting things handed to them. Mediocrity has always worked for them, except when it doesn't.

 

[NastyBook]

Johns Creek?

MORE LIKE NGS CREEK

FUCK, it took me a second.

 

[Laekon]

Yes every middle class white family repeatedly buys and sells homes to make sure our kid is the top of the class. We all have stockpiles of cash and no concerns about moving further away from our job or up rooting our kids from friends. We know precisely how many high acheiving asian kids are in each school district (its in the white people only emails that also include early access to pumpkin spice lattes) and where our little Scout and Teagan will be in the GPA list. We all have back up houses waiting in other districts incase a Le or Hung moves moves in.

While there are obviously people doing this the number would be totally insignificant. There are probably way more people using fake/borrowed/old addresses to get into better school districts.

 

[Twilight Princess]

Yes every middle class white family repeatedly buys and sells homes to make sure our kid is the top of the class. We all have stockpiles of cash and no concerns about moving further away from our job or up rooting our kids from friends. We know precisely how many high acheiving asian kids are in each school district (its in the white people only emails that also include early access to pumpkin spice lattes) and where our little Scout and Teagan will be in the GPA list. We all have back up houses waiting in other districts incase a Le or Hung moves moves in.

While there are obviously people doing this the number would be totally insignificant. There are probably way more people using fake/borrowed/old addresses to get into better school districts.

Can you hook me up on pumpkin spice lattes plz?

 

[entremet]

Fascinating stuff. This is very interesting from a sociological perspective.

 

[Terrifyer]

I was shocked when I went to university at the level of competition the Chinese and Trinidadian students were bringing to the table. Their high school education both as part of school curriculum and extra tutoring, especially in math, was just way beyond what I had been exposed to as a white kid in a small Canadian city.

Obviously that doesn't apply to everyone. I met some white kids that had also done advanced tutoring and some Chinese kids that weren't very into academics. But broadly speaking there does seem to be a very real cultural clash here. I would love it if it results in white parents doing more to support their kids academically rather than just trying to move away to avoid it. At the same time I hope in general we can take some of the pressure off kids. Put all of the academic supports in place to allow them to succeed, but also realize that top grades aren't for everyone.

 

[kswiston]

The pressure on kids isn't going anywhere. We are moving towards job scarcity due to breakthroughs in technology and computing. The US populace is still fighting over stuff like universal healthcare, which should have been settled 50 years ago. There's going to be a period of "be in the top 25% or be fucked" before we as a society realize that the current economic model is broken in light of rapidly improving technology.

 

[KingV]

The pressure on kids isn't going anywhere. We are moving towards job scarcity due to breakthroughs in technology and computing. The US populace is still fighting over stuff like universal healthcare, which should have been settled 50 years ago. There's going to be a period of "be in the top 25% or be fucked" before we as a society realize that the current economic model is broken in light of rapidly improving technology.

Sadly, we are kind of already there.

That said, I realized in Grad School that the "Top Ranked College" game is a rigged game probably not built on actual quality of education. I say that as someone that went to a top 20 undergrad school and a top 10 MBA program.

Not to say they are not good schools... But I'm not sure I would believe they are THAT much better than a mid-tier one.

 

[Ivan 3414]

Asian societies are homogeneous almost to an extreme, but I'd still prefer that to some clusterfuck suburban American town where it's blacks vs. whites vs. Hispanics. Fuck that noise.

...Because it's either or in every community in America?

 

[KingV]

I was shocked when I went to university at the level of competition the Chinese and Trinidadian students were bringing to the table. Their high school education both as part of school curriculum and extra tutoring, especially in math, was just way beyond what I had been exposed to as a white kid in a small Canadian city.

Obviously that doesn't apply to everyone. I met some white kids that had also done advanced tutoring and some Chinese kids that weren't very into academics. But broadly speaking there does seem to be a very real cultural clash here. I would love it if it results in white parents doing more to support their kids academically rather than just trying to move away to avoid it. At the same time I hope in general we can take some of the pressure off kids. Put all of the academic supports in place to allow them to succeed, but also realize that top grades aren't for everyone.

I have that same mixed feelings. On the one hand, I want my kid to be well-educated and value education. On the other hand, I want them to be a kid and not grow up having to start piano lessons at age 5 in some sort of advanced college prep game (unless of course she expresses an interest in playing piano).

I don't really like the Midwest for me, but I'm glad I live in sort of a sleep Midwest city for that reason.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Sadly, we are kind of already there.

That said, I realized in Grad School that the "Top Ranked College" game is a rigged game probably not built on actual quality of education. I say that as someone that went to a top 20 undergrad school and a top 10 MBA program.

Not to say they are not good schools... But I'm not sure I would believe they are THAT much better than a mid-tier one.

When it comes to STEM they most certainly are. Maybe not in the quality of teaching, but in the out of class resources such as labs and research groups you have access to

 

[CSX]

As an Asian whose community grew with more Asian families moving in throughout my school life, I personally saw a lot of what the article was saying.

The high school I went to was about 40% Asian and 40% White. Since I graduated from college, I been told that Asians are now the majority demographic in not just my high school but also the middle school I attended.

I remember we had a valedictorian from another school transfer to my high school due to his parents having to move. When he transferred, he dropped immediately to top 20% in class ranking. He basically went from free ride to college to nothing.

Sure because class ranking is a huge part of college admissions and academic scholarships along with test scores, these kind of schools are academic competitive. In fact, a joke in my high school is that the students there were the first to coin the term "GPA Whore". But in my experience, participating in those high levels of academics and competitiveness prepares you for college! I tell people that I lost more sleep in high school than I did in college which shocks them since I majored in computer engineering technologies. But because of being in that high school, I found the first two years of college to be a breeze. What's the use to moving to an "easier" high school for better rankings if it leads to your child struggling in the early years of college...when your academics truly matter!

In Cantonese,
White people are 白鬼 which translates into White Ghost. Black People are 黑鬼 which translates into Black ghost. Only the Chinese are people, foreigners are evil spirits.

If you live in a place with a Chinatown, you hear this all the time.

 

[CitizenVectron]

It actually kind of makes sense to game the high school system, and with it, college acceptance/scholarship chances. The stakes are just too high.

Better to be the best kid in a terrible average school than an average kid at a great school.

There was a great TED talk that showed with stats that it' better to be #1 in your local college than #5 at Harvard or Yale. The quality of your education doesn't matter that much, it's the relative ranking that matters. It's sad, but true. The exception is that some businesses may exclusively hire from a specific university, but overall it makes more sense to be a big fish in a small pond.

 

[AndyD]

As an Asian whose community grew with more Asian families moving in throughout my school life, I personally saw a lot of what the article was saying.

The high school I went to was about 40% Asian and 40% White. Since I graduated from college, I been told that Asians are now the majority demographic in not just my high school but also the middle school I attended.

I remember we had a valedictorian from another school transfer to my high school due to his parents having to move. When he transferred, he dropped immediately to top 20% in class ranking. He basically went from free ride to college to nothing.

Sure because class ranking is a huge part of college admissions and academic scholarships along with test scores, these kind of schools are academic competitive. In fact, a joke in my high school is that the students there were the first to coin the term "GPA Whore". But in my experience, participating in those high levels of academics and competitiveness prepares you for college! I tell people that I lost more sleep in high school than I did in college which shocks them since I majored in computer engineering technologies. But because of being in that high school, I found the first two years of college to be a breeze. What's the use to moving to an "easier" high school for better rankings if it leads to your child struggling in the early years of college...when your academics truly matter!

I think the ability to get into a better college and/or get a scholarship to one. As you mentioned being near the top might net you a scholarship so you can go somewhere you would otherwise not afford. It just opens more possibilities for college.

It's irrelevant to be highly prepared for college, if you can't get into/pay for a great college to begin with.

 

[MHWilliams]

When it comes to STEM they most certainly are. Maybe not in the quality of teaching, but in the out of class resources such as labs and research groups you have access to

Actually, STEM is one of the areas where going to an Ivy League or elite school means little.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/do-elit...salaries-only-for-some-professions-1454295674

In our study, we looked at about 7,300 college graduates 10 years after graduation. We divided their majors into several categories: business, engineering, science, social science, humanities, education and other. And we used three broad classifications for college type: selective, which covers elite schools and other highly competitive institutions; midtier; and less selective, which covers schools with open enrollment.

What we found startled us. For STEM-related majors, average earnings don’t vary much among the college categories. For example, we find no statistically significant differences in average earnings for science majors between selective schools and either midtier or less-selective schools. Likewise, there’s no significant earnings difference between engineering graduates from selective and less-selective colleges, and only a marginally significant difference between selective and midtier colleges.

What’s going on? For potential employers, the skills students learn in these fields appear to trump prestige—possibly because curriculums are relatively standardized and there’s a commonly accepted body of knowledge students must absorb. So, a student may not need to attend the best possible school to ensure a good salary after graduation. (It’s important to note that we controlled for numerous other factors that might influence postgraduation earnings, such as family income, race/ethnicity, gender, marital status, SAT score, postgraduate degree and age at graduation and more.)

Our findings are crucial for families to understand because chasing a prestigious STEM degree can leave students burdened with huge amounts of unnecessary debt. Financial aid can certainly help, but for many families, the cost of education can still differ dramatically across schools. For example, if an engineering student chose to attend the University of Pennsylvania instead of Texas A&M, the average starting salary would differ by less than $1,000, but the tuition difference would be over $167,000. At that slightly higher salary, you’d have to work for more than 150 years before you make up for that vast tuition difference.

 

[KingV]

When it comes to STEM they most certainly are. Maybe not in the quality of teaching, but in the out of class resources such as labs and research groups you have access to

I was a STEM undergrad, but I was more talking about my MBA experience. I was not quite as introspective as an undergrad, so wasn't thinking about that much at the time.

 

[Zoe]

Actually, STEM is one of the areas where going to an Ivy League or elite school means little.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/do-elit...salaries-only-for-some-professions-1454295674

How in the hell are they getting a difference of $167k? And considering it's just the difference, the full price tag would be even higher?

Edit: Undergrad is more at Pennsylvania:
http://www.sfs.upenn.edu/paying/cost-of-attendance.htm
https://financialaid.tamu.edu/Undergraduate/Cost-of-Attendance#0-CollegeStationUndergraduate