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[Gaming Industry] Helldivers 2 has sold overall, over 60% of it's sales on PC

Braag

Member
Lazy take.
Depends in how invested you are in this whole thing.

It's not about that for a lot of reasonable people. It is about knowing that Sony cannot afford to lose the PlayStation console and brand. They literally cannot afford it. As someone who mainly plays on PC and VR these days, I wish they could.
They are a multi-billion dollar corporation. Your concern for them is admirable, but I doubt they care. They know better than anyone in GAF how to change their strategy to continue being market leader or at least one of the biggest names in gaming.
 

Men_in_Boxes

Snake Oil Salesman
Both can co-exist. Singleplayer titles that will be the flagship titles, while the GaaS titles will keep people playing within the eco-system in between major releases.
The GAAS titles will be their flagship titles. The GAAS studios will be their flagship studios.

Money makes the world go round and the GAAS games will earn significantly more than the SP games.

Releasing day and date on PC for multiplayer will only hasten that.
 

reinking

Gold Member
Depends in how invested you are in this whole thing.


They are a multi-billion dollar corporation. Your concern for them is admirable, but I doubt they care. They know better than anyone in GAF how to change their strategy to continue being market leader or at least one of the biggest names in gaming.
LOL. It is not my concern. It is theirs. If you actually read my posts in this thread, you will see that I have been saying it is Sony that knows that is best because they have the data to back it up.

For example....
I am giving them the benefit of knowing their business better than "anguished fanboys" on any side of the argument.

As I said previously, currently Sony strategy is to not release their story driven games day one on PC. I do not believe they plan to do that any time soon unless something catastrophic happens to the console market. If your opinion on that is different, that is cool too.
 

yurinka

Member
Aside Bungie and Polyphony Digital, Sony don't really have any MP-centric studios. Not anymore, anyhow.
Firewalk and Haven too. Haven did flaghip top selling AAA games but beyond Fairgame$ (MP game), for the Jade Raymond -at least a few years ago- was interested to explore the possibilities of the social aspects of MP and user generated content.

Haven may do some SP game too, but I think they'll focus more on trying to introduce in AAA games concepts from games like The Sims, Animal Crossing, PS Home, LBP or Minecraft. I don't know, maybe stuff like being able to build things like your house, city, base, ship or fortresses for you and your crew/team/guild/faction and customize your characters and weapons more than usual, or maybe store your loot, rewards and trophies there, maybe buildin there some farm or factory to produce game resources and letting other players visit it, but in a AAA game of another genre.

Think doing so in a game like Days Gone, Helldivers, Gran Turismo, etc. sequels. It could grow them, and some players could focus more in this part than in the battle/racing one, opening the market of these games to also players who like other genres.

Some like Guerrilla have shifted away from FPS games to single-player third-person games (Horizon). And others like Arrowhead, aren't actually 1P studios, but 3P studios.
Guerrilla didn't shift. In the same way they had Horizon 2, they have a team working on Horizon 3.

But they grew to have a second team working on a MP game on top of that, whose director is the Killzone MP (and Rainbow 6 Siege) director. Similar to what ND tried, they grea to turn their MP team into their MP game team.

Meaning, teams like Guerrilla or ND had their SP teams but grew to also have an MP team evolved from their MP mode teams.

I think Sucker Punch may also try it, I think they may try to continue having their core GoT team doing GoT2 but on top of that to have an expanded GoT Legends team working on a MP game GoT Legends 2.

What would be great, would be a cycle of GaaS-centric titles getting single-player story-driven side games where able (I don't think anyone would mind a Helldivers-based single-player AA side game with story beats inspired from the classic Starship Troopers film or other stuff like Total Recall even (same director)), and single-player games getting multiplayer (not necessarily GaaS-like) additional content in future updates like what they did for Ghosts of Tsushima. That stuff could be light live-service content with some additional cosmetics/weapons/skins etc. purchasable through MTX, but not full GaaS/online-centric titles (some could have local couch co-op and multiplayer for example).

That way it's not a matter of MP-centric or SP-centric studios "dominating" the production pipeline. They'd all have equal worth and value to the pipeline for gaming content.
I think something easier and cheaper for them (that still would require a ton of work on top of the huge amount of work they have with the MP side) would be to release for the MP GaaS like Helldivers 2 short episodes of a SP campaign from time to time, maybe once or twice per year:

A CG for the intro and ending of the episode, enough SP missions to make it let's say 6 hours long (in case of Helldivers 2, it would mean 9 missions) and maybe a handful conversations or cinematics with NPCs between some missions. That would give more value to their MP GaaS games and would make them more appealing to SP only players.

Regarding SP games, to have in some cases expansions (Ikki Island, Burning Shores...) plus some small mtx/dlcs like main character skins is is fine. I wouldn't go more complex than that becase they already need a ton of time and work to do what they already do.

Sony is happy with their SP games, which continue being the majority of their games under development. The thing is that MP GaaS are becoming too important for the gaming market and Sony games were very week in this area, so they wanted to make a push with several GaaS games from top creators. They knew a few would fail, a few would become huge hits and the other ones would perform ok. With that they'll have this base covered for many years because the successful ones will keep getting fresh content during several years.
 
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FrankWza

Member
Depends in how invested you are in this whole thing.
It's a lazy take regardless of how invested anyone is. Again, we have an example that is currently happening and is on a downward slope. If Playstation follows the xbox model and has the same results, they most likely will be out of the console and accessories business. I like my PS5, Edge controller, DualSense features, PSVR2 and Portal. I like to Platinum my favorite games.


They know better than anyone in GAF how to change their strategy to continue being market leader or at least one of the biggest names in gaming.

They are a multi-billion dollar corporation
"they" sometimes comes down to one or two guys that have an agenda tied to their wallets. Like gamepass and the bonuses that a few executives were supposed to get based on subs.
 

DaciaJC

Gold Member
I'm not really sure what you are going on about since we agree that Sony is bringing more games to PC and at no point did I ever say otherwise. If you are hung up on "diluting the console brand" then we have a different opinion on that. Currently, until PlayStation starts releasing those single player, story driven, on PC day one, then it appears I am more aligned with where they are right now. If I am wrong, come back and laugh at me. I will survive.

Fair enough, friend.
 

BennyBlanco

aka IMurRIVAL69
It's the XBOX operatives


No, it's the PS5 operatives



Spider_Man_meme.jpg


3a9.gif
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
The GAAS titles will be their flagship titles. The GAAS studios will be their flagship studios.

Money makes the world go round and the GAAS games will earn significantly more than the SP games.

Releasing day and date on PC for multiplayer will only hasten that.

I can't believe how out of touch you are with reality on this. It's laughable at this point. LOL!!!
 

Men_in_Boxes

Snake Oil Salesman
I can't believe how out of touch you are with reality on this. It's laughable at this point. LOL!!!

PlayStation isn't spending 60% of their budget on GAAS because they expect their SP projects to make more profit.

Some of y'all need to watch more sports. The highest paid player on the roster is generally expected to outperform everyone else.

Also, we just saw Helldivers 2 smoke every AA PS5 exclusive in existence in terms of revenue. Arrowhead is now growing.

PS5 + PC >>> PS5

How much evidence do you need to see? I feel like the scientist in those disaster movies warning world leaders about the incoming ecological disaster.
 
The GAAS titles will be their flagship titles. The GAAS studios will be their flagship studios.

Money makes the world go round and the GAAS games will earn significantly more than the SP games.

Releasing day and date on PC for multiplayer will only hasten that.

That's only if Sony don't make adjustments to their budget pipeline for SP games.

Something that I feel they are going to do. Hopefully with the right steps.

Firewalk and Haven too. Haven did flaghip top selling AAA games but beyond Fairgame$ (MP game), for the Jade Raymond -at least a few years ago- was interested to explore the possibilities of the social aspects of MP and user generated content.

Haven may do some SP game too, but I think they'll focus more on trying to introduce in AAA games concepts from games like The Sims, Animal Crossing, PS Home, LBP or Minecraft. I don't know, maybe stuff like being able to build things like your house, city, base, ship or fortresses for you and your crew/team/guild/faction and customize your characters and weapons more than usual, or maybe store your loot, rewards and trophies there, maybe buildin there some farm or factory to produce game resources and letting other players visit it, but in a AAA game of another genre.

Think doing so in a game like Days Gone, Helldivers, Gran Turismo, etc. sequels. It could grow them, and some players could focus more in this part than in the battle/racing one, opening the market of these games to also players who like other genres.


Guerrilla didn't shift. In the same way they had Horizon 2, they have a team working on Horizon 3.

But they grew to have a second team working on a MP game on top of that, whose director is the Killzone MP (and Rainbow 6 Siege) director. Similar to what ND tried, they grea to turn their MP team into their MP game team.

Meaning, teams like Guerrilla or ND had their SP teams but grew to also have an MP team evolved from their MP mode teams.

I think Sucker Punch may also try it, I think they may try to continue having their core GoT team doing GoT2 but on top of that to have an expanded GoT Legends team working on a MP game GoT Legends 2.


I think something easier and cheaper for them (that still would require a ton of work on top of the huge amount of work they have with the MP side) would be to release for the MP GaaS like Helldivers 2 short episodes of a SP campaign from time to time, maybe once or twice per year:

A CG for the intro and ending of the episode, enough SP missions to make it let's say 6 hours long (in case of Helldivers 2, it would mean 9 missions) and maybe a handful conversations or cinematics with NPCs between some missions. That would give more value to their MP GaaS games and would make them more appealing to SP only players.

Regarding SP games, to have in some cases expansions (Ikki Island, Burning Shores...) plus some small mtx/dlcs like main character skins is is fine. I wouldn't go more complex than that becase they already need a ton of time and work to do what they already do.

Sony is happy with their SP games, which continue being the majority of their games under development. The thing is that MP GaaS are becoming too important for the gaming market and Sony games were very week in this area, so they wanted to make a push with several GaaS games from top creators. They knew a few would fail, a few would become huge hits and the other ones would perform ok. With that they'll have this base covered for many years because the successful ones will keep getting fresh content during several years.

Yeah it is a sensible strategy in streamlining things on the non-GaaS AAA side. I kind of responded to this answering someone else in another thread, so I'm gonna copy-pasta that comment here:

In the Insomniac hack we saw that their plan for Spiderman 3 is to split it up or "compartmentalize" it into hefty smaller chunks, with the single-player and then multi-player, and then some other thing. Maybe, in addition to the obvious measures for reducing costs (cutting some project redundancies with too much overlap of demo/genre, less licenses in some areas, more AA games etc.), Sony should consider making their AAA single-player epics "episodic".

I know some people hate the phrase "episodic" but I did always kind of think this would be a potential solution. In fact, with Game Pass I thought Microsoft would do this with a lot of their own games, but it's dawned on me they have very few games that actually lend themselves well to an episodic format. Whereas with Sony, they have tons of cinematic story-driven games, which go perfectly well with an episodic or semi-episodic approach.

So maybe for example, instead of one massive traditional release for say TLOU Part 3, they split it up into three parts, and release them in two-year intervals. They still can tell the same story they'd tell if it were a game with all three parts, but maybe in a semi-episodic format they can add a bit more content to each part vs. what they could do if it were a full game, and this would also let them get the game out there (at least part of it) sooner. You will still have the fans who want to get each part ASAP, meanwhile you can get more casual fans (old and new) to pick the game up down the line with al three parts packaged together, and that's also when they could bring the game to PC.

Why would this work? Because with a lot of these games, it's the content that takes the most time to make, by far. So having say a 2-year buffer between parts (but each part can feel like a full game in itself, sort of like a Miles Morales or Uncharted 4 Lost Legacy expansion) would give enough time to develop content for the next part. Meanwhile, they can price each part at say $30, which is probably the sweet spot, and treat it the same way they would with the game if it were released "normally". But if you do it in parts, people can start actually playing the game years earlier, and if there are small QOL improvements introduced with latter parts, the older parts can get updates to include them.

Of course, progress would have to be continued between them, but we already see how stuff like the Telltale games do it, or even better one of my favorite games ever, Shining Force III. That's actually the game I'm thinking of a lot while typing this, because even though it's split into three Scenarios, each one practically is a whole game unto itself, and decisions you make in the earlier Scenarios will carry over to the succeeding ones. But more importantly, they all feel like a seamless story and narrative, you don't feel like you're missing cut content, and they have all the things in each Scenario you'd get in a full game (full utilization of game mechanics, full normal challenge/difficulty curve, resolution to multiple (not all) plot points, etc.).

If each part takes 2 years to release, then you first do the normal B2P release at $30 (maybe $40 depending on the game but that'd be the upper limit), then when the next part is releasing you put it in PS+ for a limited period of time, then release the second part as B2P. Repeat the process until all the parts have been released and had some time in the service, then release them together as a single game on Steam. That'd be a good 4-6 years after initially releasing the parts (or Scenarios if sticking with SF III lingo) on console, and maybe there are additional QOL or bonus content included in the PC release but make that release priced at $50 or $60, and make the additional QOL and bonus content accessible to console owners for a free or small fee. And then 1-2 years later comes another new 1P AAA release for console using that same model.

Honestly I think if they take that approach, and they can combine it with something like a per-game sub model for the digital version (so maybe instead of paying $30 or $40 upfront, you pay $6/mo or $7/mo over a 6-month period, or even $3/mo - $4/mo over a 12-month period, that is a winning formula. The vast majority of the same people who buy the normal games for $70 Day 1 are going to buy the parts/Scenarios Day 1 for $30/$40, plus with the sub option get a lot of people who'd rather had waited until down the line to buy the game, to pick it up Day 1 as well. And since these would be digital sales, that means more profit each copy.

In fact, I think with the per-game sub option in particular it could free Sony up to change up stuff with PS+, such as getting rid of the online paywall on console, because even if some notable number of people drop PS+ Essentials as a result, they are very likely going to shift that spending towards buying more games Day 1 between both, say, 1P AAA games being broken up into parts/Scenarios and priced cheaper per-part/Scenario, and the sub option that can compound with that. Not all 1P AAA games can probably be broken up this way; I think something like Gran Turismo for example could only be separated in terms of the single-player and multi-player and that's it. But I'm mainly thinking of the story-heavy titles anyway.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
PlayStation isn't spending 60% of their budget on GAAS because they expect their SP projects to make more profit.

Some of y'all need to watch more sports. The highest paid player on the roster is generally expected to outperform everyone else.

Also, we just saw Helldivers 2 smoke every AA PS5 exclusive in existence in terms of revenue. Arrowhead is now growing.

PS5 + PC >>> PS5

How much evidence do you need to see? I feel like the scientist in those disaster movies warning world leaders about the incoming ecological disaster.

Are you sure it's going to stay 60% for GAAS games though? It's my belief that it's that percentage now, because they know they'll have some hits and misses but are willing to take some chances. They've already spent probably over $100 million on TLOU: Factions and will generate $0 from it. That means something. You can't act as if that didn't happen.

Factions is a 100% profit lost! Plus it's a lose of time that Sony and ND will NEVER get back.
 

Men_in_Boxes

Snake Oil Salesman
Are you sure it's going to stay 60% for GAAS games though? It's my belief that it's that percentage now, because they know they'll have some hits and misses but are willing to take some chances.
Hiroki Titoki recently said PlayStations mid to long term plans regarding Live Service remain unchanged. The short term budget for GAAS has most likely lightened, but let's be real...Do you think the success of Helldivers 2 emboldened them or made them more hesitant?

Current signs are suggesting the market was undersaturated this whole time. You don't wait if that's the case.
They've already spent probably over $100 million on TLOU: Factions and will generate $0 from it. That means something. You can't act as if that didn't happen.
It would mean more if anyone could produce a legitimate number for Factions 2 that wasn't pulled out of thin air. Nobody knows the cost of that project. Pre production vs full production.
Factions is a 100% profit lost! Plus it's a lose of time that Sony and ND will NEVER get back.
Single player games are cancelled all the time as well. The only difference is there isn't a quasi religion forming around the hatred of SP like their is with GAAS, so those cancellations are conveniently ignored.

Plus, don't be surprised if Naughty Dog reveals they're working on an original Live Service game in a few years. The people who wanted to make a multiplayer game still work there and we're still in a bull market.

GAAS on PC + PS5 is going to outperform SP on just the PS5.
 
Huh, Haven and Firewalk.

Yeah I know, they exist too. Though technically, they haven't released a game yet 😉

Hiroki Titoki recently said PlayStations mid to long term plans regarding Live Service remain unchanged. The short term budget for GAAS has most likely lightened, but let's be real...Do you think the success of Helldivers 2 emboldened them or made them more hesitant?

Current signs are suggesting the market was undersaturated this whole time. You don't wait if that's the case.

It would mean more if anyone could produce a legitimate number for Factions 2 that wasn't pulled out of thin air. Nobody knows the cost of that project. Pre production vs full production.

Single player games are cancelled all the time as well. The only difference is there isn't a quasi religion forming around the hatred of SP like their is with GAAS, so those cancellations are conveniently ignored.

Plus, don't be surprised if Naughty Dog reveals they're working on an original Live Service game in a few years. The people who wanted to make a multiplayer game still work there and we're still in a bull market.

GAAS on PC + PS5 is going to outperform SP on just the PS5.

Well FWIW, GaaS has always outperformed SP on PS consoles since at least the PS4. 3P GaaS titles generated more revenue and profit than Sony's SP games, but that doesn't mean Sony stopped focusing on SP.

And, even if they grow in GaaS, that doesn't mean they'll stop with investing big into SP games. They know many of their studios are suited to SP games, and they won't risk having a talent exodus by trying to force their devs into a development model they either aren't suited to or don't want to pursue. That's what the new studios like Haven, Deviation and studios like Arrowhead, who are all geared towards GaaS at the studio culture & dev pipeline level, are for.

There may be instances where team members from the SP teams join up with the GaaS studios to help in some areas of development, but that's not going to come at the detriment of the SP games. I don't get why you feel Sony can't have SP and GaaS/MP titles co-exist, when they managed to do that in the past. The other platform holders have a balance of SP and GaaS/MP titles, even other studios do such as Rockstar and CDPR (Cyberpunk, The Witcher, and Gwent). Sony/SIE need that balance too, whether you personally like it or not.

But I don't think there's any fear in SP games disappearing; the GaaS titles that do really well just means extra money, and Sony will find ways to curb excess costs on both GaaS and SP titles, and improve margins on the latter. And they don't need to resort to anything near ideas like 'Day 1 PC' or 'bring all your games to other consoles' to achieve that. A lot of us have been sharing ideas as to why that can be avoided and how alternative methods for cost control and improving margins could be done. And if we're thinking of this stuff, very good chance some people at SIE are considering and pursuing those options too, or finding ways to convince higher-ups to pursue those options or similar ones.
 
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Hiroki Titoki recently said PlayStations mid to long term plans regarding Live Service remain unchanged. The short term budget for GAAS has most likely lightened, but let's be real...Do you think the success of Helldivers 2 emboldened them or made them more hesitant?

Current signs are suggesting the market was undersaturated this whole time. You don't wait if that's the case.

It would mean more if anyone could produce a legitimate number for Factions 2 that wasn't pulled out of thin air. Nobody knows the cost of that project. Pre production vs full production.

Single player games are cancelled all the time as well. The only difference is there isn't a quasi religion forming around the hatred of SP like their is with GAAS, so those cancellations are conveniently ignored.

Plus, don't be surprised if Naughty Dog reveals they're working on an original Live Service game in a few years. The people who wanted to make a multiplayer game still work there and we're still in a bull market.

GAAS on PC + PS5 is going to outperform SP on just the PS5.
Anyone thinking HD2 success won’t send shockwaves through Sony are telling themselves a lie. I heard a rumour that they were prepared for 100k total CCU. What they got was 700k-800k. That’s insane return. Every time their CEO will be grilled for low margins, he will be reminded of investing in more HD2 like projects.

Keep in mind, GAAS games are what children play today. Its already established as Mario of the future. Something they will be nostalgic about. Every company wants to have capability of making those.

There is just too much pressure on Sony to make this their most important games.
 

Killjoy-NL

Member
Anyone thinking HD2 success won’t send shockwaves through Sony are telling themselves a lie. I heard a rumour that they were prepared for 100k total CCU. What they got was 700k-800k. That’s insane return. Every time their CEO will be grilled for low margins, he will be reminded of investing in more HD2 like projects.

Keep in mind, GAAS games are what children play today. Its already established as Mario of the future. Something they will be nostalgic about. Every company wants to have capability of making those.

There is just too much pressure on Sony to make this their most important games.
Says who?

Look at what happened to Demon's Souls.

When it released, iirc Sony only released ~700K copies, as they didn’t expect it to sell very well.
It went to create an entirely new genre, yet Sony did not aqcuire FromSoftware and apart from Bloodborne and DS Remake, they continued their focus on their established output.
 
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Says who?

Look at what happened to Demon's Souls.

When it released, iirc Sony only released ~700K copies, as they didn’t expect it to sell very well.
It went to create an entirely new genre, yet Sony did not aqcuire FromSoftware and apart from Bloodborne and DS Remake, they continued their focus on their established output.
That was a mistake on Sony’s part from business perspective.

They themselves accept it.

Besides, not many studios can make soulsbourne games.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Hiroki Titoki recently said PlayStations mid to long term plans regarding Live Service remain unchanged. The short term budget for GAAS has most likely lightened, but let's be real...Do you think the success of Helldivers 2 emboldened them or made them more hesitant?

Current signs are suggesting the market was undersaturated this whole time. You don't wait if that's the case.

It would mean more if anyone could produce a legitimate number for Factions 2 that wasn't pulled out of thin air. Nobody knows the cost of that project. Pre production vs full production.

Single player games are cancelled all the time as well. The only difference is there isn't a quasi religion forming around the hatred of SP like their is with GAAS, so those cancellations are conveniently ignored.

Plus, don't be surprised if Naughty Dog reveals they're working on an original Live Service game in a few years. The people who wanted to make a multiplayer game still work there and we're still in a bull market.

GAAS on PC + PS5 is going to outperform SP on just the PS5.

Maybe we are talking past each other. I'm not anti-GAAS in general or for PlayStation specifically. I've been a Playstation gamer since 1998. And in my 25+ years, I've learned that Playstation very rarely goes all in on just one thing. They've constantly kept a steady mix of a little of this and a little of that. It's how they've been so successful this whole time. There's no reason to abandon what you're good at, just to jump on the new next thing.

At this point, it's hard to say if the bolded is true though (GAAS on PC + PS5 is going to outperform SP on just the PS5). I'm not sure how many total GAAS games Sony will have from year to year. And without knowing their full 2024 slate....who's to say? Smartly Sony has decided to spend money on getting games like FF7: Rebirth and Rise of Ronin exclusive on the PS5 and they are straight-up SP games. Add those to Sony's 1st party exclusives like Stellar Blade, Wolverine, and Death Stranding 2 and I'd say they will have a nice balance of SP games and GAAS games.

Well FWIW, GaaS has always outperformed SP on PS consoles since at least the PS4. 3P GaaS titles generated more revenue and profit than Sony's SP games, but that doesn't mean Sony stopped focusing on SP.

And, even if they grow in GaaS, that doesn't mean they'll stop with investing big into SP games. They know many of their studios are suited to SP games, and they won't risk having a talent exodus by trying to force their devs into a development model they either aren't suited to or don't want to pursue. That's what the new studios like Haven, Deviation and studios like Arrowhead, who are all geared towards GaaS at the studio culture & dev pipeline level, are for.

There may be instances where team members from the SP teams join up with the GaaS studios to help in some areas of development, but that's not going to come at the detriment of the SP games. I don't get why you feel Sony can't have SP and GaaS/MP titles co-exist, when they managed to do that in the past. The other platform holders have a balance of SP and GaaS/MP titles, even other studios do such as Rockstar and CDPR (Cyberpunk, The Witcher, and Gwent). Sony/SIE need that balance too, whether you personally like it or not.

But I don't think there's any fear in SP games disappearing; the GaaS titles that do really well just means extra money, and Sony will find ways to curb excess costs on both GaaS and SP titles, and improve margins on the latter. And they don't need to resort to anything near ideas like 'Day 1 PC' or 'bring all your games to other consoles' to achieve that. A lot of us have been sharing ideas as to why that can be avoided and how alternative methods for cost control and improving margins could be done. And if we're thinking of this stuff, very good chance some people at SIE are considering and pursuing those options too, or finding ways to convince higher-ups to pursue those options or similar ones.

That's the thing that's weird to me too. There's no reason for Sony to need to abandon anything. Even if they create some great GAAS games. It's all icing on the top of the cake. It's a great bonus.

Anyone thinking HD2 success won’t send shockwaves through Sony are telling themselves a lie. I heard a rumour that they were prepared for 100k total CCU. What they got was 700k-800k. That’s insane return. Every time their CEO will be grilled for low margins, he will be reminded of investing in more HD2 like projects.

Keep in mind, GAAS games are what children play today. Its already established as Mario of the future. Something they will be nostalgic about. Every company wants to have capability of making those.

There is just too much pressure on Sony to make this their most important games.

They can do both. I hope it sends shockwaves through Sony in reminding them that ONLY teams that love making Live Service games, should be making them. Or having devs add it over time like MLB The Show or Gran Turismo. Those are the learning lessons of HD2.
 

Men_in_Boxes

Snake Oil Salesman
Well FWIW, GaaS has always outperformed SP on PS consoles since at least the PS4. 3P GaaS titles generated more revenue and profit than Sony's SP games, but that doesn't mean Sony stopped focusing on SP.
I suspect that GAAS revenue and popularity grew substantially over the course of the PS4 generation. It was likely easy for PlayStation to ignore it around 2013 and then became impossible to ignore by 2017. If you look at a number of their multiplayer hires, many of them came in 2018.
And, even if they grow in GaaS, that doesn't mean they'll stop with investing big into SP games. They know many of their studios are suited to SP games, and they won't risk having a talent exodus by trying to force their devs into a development model they either aren't suited to or don't want to pursue. That's what the new studios like Haven, Deviation and studios like Arrowhead, who are all geared towards GaaS at the studio culture & dev pipeline level, are for.
You're thinking that Insomniac, Santa Monica, and Naughty Dog are at risk when it's actually studios like Sony Bend, London Studio, Housemarque and Team Asobi that's at risk of becoming multiplayer centric. Those were the studios struggling making SP focused games.

I don't get why you feel Sony can't have SP and GaaS/MP titles co-exist, when they managed to do that in the past.
Oh I don't disagree with this. PlayStation still has many years of producing big budget SP games ahead. I just think the ratio and pecking order of their studios is about to get shaken up drastically over the next 3 or so years.
But I don't think there's any fear in SP games disappearing; the GaaS titles that do really well just means extra money, and Sony will find ways to curb excess costs on both GaaS and SP titles, and improve margins on the latter. And they don't need to resort to anything near ideas like 'Day 1 PC' or 'bring all your games to other consoles' to achieve that. A lot of us have been sharing ideas as to why that can be avoided and how alternative methods for cost control and improving margins could be done. And if we're thinking of this stuff, very good chance some people at SIE are considering and pursuing those options too, or finding ways to convince higher-ups to pursue those options or similar ones.
The great thing about the market is that it gives you clues to the future. PlayStation SP studios can't make games that sell 12.5 million copies anymore. They want 20+ million copies. It's time they do the dreaded thing NeoGAF despises and "chase them trends". IE look at which games are selling 20+ million and figure out why.
 
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mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
The great thing about the market is that it gives you clues to the future. PlayStation SP studios can't make games that sell 12.5 million copies anymore. They want 20+ million copies. It's time they do the dreaded thing NeoGAF despises and "chase them trends". IE look at which games are selling 20+ million and figure out why.

If Sony does this, THEY ARE DEAD!!!! This feels like something Mircosoft would do. This isn't Sony at all!
 

gatti-man

Member
If this is the future of GaaS sign me up. Extremely easy to earn currency. The for money currency is literally findable in game and able to be bought with in game currency as well. This is a throwback to when GaaS wasn’t a dirty word.

I hope it sells so many copies we see AAA versions of this title.
 
They can do both. I hope it sends shockwaves through Sony in reminding them that ONLY teams that love making Live Service games, should be making them. Or having devs add it over time like MLB The Show or Gran Turismo. Those are the learning lessons of HD2.
What do you think of Destiny model?

Say, they release a small GOW game. Then released yearly story expansions. Along with modes like GOW Valhalla.

Personally I like that model. But studios have struggled with it like Avengers and maybe Suicide Squad as well.

Pure GAAS games like Fortnite, Helldivers 2, sure studios that are good at that should make them.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Sure, but the point was that HD2 success doesn't necessarily mean that Sony will make a complete 180 and focus on GaaS and PC primarily.
I agree, but few people here are still convinced that whatever MS has done IS the future of the industry or they are trying to astroturf it to reality in a way that demands / constantly suggests Sony to follow in the same footsteps. Not sure if it is delusional or knowing full well that it would become a stupid battle to see whomever burns out of money the soonest (which is a lopsided battle).
 
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Killjoy-NL

Member
I agree, but few people here are still convinced that whatever MS has done IS the future of the industry or they are trying to astroturf it to reality that demand / constantly suggest Sony to follow in the same footsteps. Not sure if it is delusional or knowing full well that it would become a stupid battle to see whomever burns out of money they soonest (which is a lopsided battle).
I'm pretty sure it's just delusion, at this point.

We hear Sony openly talking about how they are moving away from what MS says is the future.
 
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I agree, but few people here are still convinced that whatever MS has done IS the future of the industry or they are trying to astroturf it to reality that demand / constantly suggest Sony to follow in the same footsteps. Not sure if it is delusional or knowing full well that it would become a stupid battle to see whomever burns out of money they soonest (which is a lopsided battle).
It's really starting to get tiresome.
 
Way to miss the forest from the trees. The surrounding topic I touched on is way bigger & more important than some folks upset a Sony game's selling slightly more on PC than console.



Yeah and we've seen it happen multiple times in the past when games suddenly got confirmed for Xbox. Lots of people on Twitter, even some forums, just asking "is it coming to Game Pass?" instead of simply being excited an Xbox version got announced.

They want that five-star meal but on a dollar menu budget. That isn't really possible. And I'm only referring to the Xbox fans who constantly shill/praise Game Pass like it's the second coming of Christ. The ones who simply like the service but don't console war or campaign for it, well usually they aren't posting online I take it.



Personally I'd call for a wider window than that for the 1P single-player/non-GaaS titles, but that does really depend on the type of game in particular. Like with 1P AA remakes for example, I could def see some being Day 1 on PC and even mobile as well as console, but others being 1-2 years between platforms. Remasters should preferably be small collections (like a Resistance Trilogy Remastered collection for example) and I think for games that old (give them QOL improvements tho of course) but I think those can be Day 1 across console/PC/mobile as well.

It's the 1P AAA non-GaaS titles where a sizable window between versions should be, and in all cases I think there should be a virtuous loop where the console gets a new exclusive within 1-2 years of it happening. That would be ideal.

I did want to do a big write-up for a thread, but I'm gonna try making the word count as small as possible, after that Xbox one o.0
I think they’ll probably go studio by studio. If there’s an “ultimate” version within a year span then yes pc. If there’s nothing and it’s huge like GOD of War. Wait for dlc and if there’s nothing down the pipeline. Wait longer. However, GASS should be day and date especially if they’re charging for the game like Helldivers. It shows there’s a bigger ecosystem. Making people want to stay longer. Especially if they paid money for the title. Honestly speaking.
 
I agree, but few people here are still convinced that whatever MS has done IS the future of the industry or they are trying to astroturf it to reality in a way that demands / constantly suggests Sony to follow in the same footsteps. Not sure if it is delusional or knowing full well that it would become a stupid battle to see whomever burns out of money the soonest (which is a lopsided battle).
it had been a thing for multiple console generations now. If it wasn't for the acquisition lawsuit causing it all to be blown open, they would still deny that Xbox comes last in gaming.

Which company in their right mind would imitate Xbox by choice?
 

IDappa

Member
why the fuck would it not sell more on pc? it plays better with mouse and keyboard....its a great co op game. why be so butthurt it does a little bit better? its not that big of a deal and its kind of obvious looking at ccu that it sold better on PC.
Plays fine on PlayStation controller. I play on pc with it. Great experience especially with the touch pad and haptics.
 

yurinka

Member
That's only if Sony don't make adjustments to their budget pipeline for SP games.

Something that I feel they are going to do. Hopefully with the right steps.



Yeah it is a sensible strategy in streamlining things on the non-GaaS AAA side. I kind of responded to this answering someone else in another thread, so I'm gonna copy-pasta that comment here:
As far as we know, Sony doesn't plan to streamline their investment in traditional SP non-GaaS, but the opposite: even if not as much as in GaaS, their mid term plan (next 2-3 years) is to increase investment in traditional SP non-GaaS titles. Remember there was a graph showing how they planned to increase their investment of both types of projects.

image.png


And also remember non-GaaS titles are the majority of their record number of games under development (more than 25 PS Studios titles + minimum 3 Bungie titles = more than 28 games, being only 12 of them GaaS), and these are the games they'll release in the next years.

Regarding Insomniac leaks about their MP projects: we saw multiple docs with conflicting information. Some of them were roadmap graphs about their projects, and in one of them featured what apparently were "online" expansions (MP mode released later like in GoT maybe?) of a few of their upcoming games like Wolverine, Spider-Man 2 or X-Men:

4wCCcC1.jpg


In other roadmap graphs these Online things didn't appear, including ones that had a handful games delayed to a later year, a hint that could make us think it's a more updated roadmap, but this one didn't feature these 'online' expansions. Which could be understood that such pitch wasn't approved or that such plans were cancelled.

venom-game-in-2027-v0-Pin4mw2nCvKe_9LRVLqu5Ga_hin4Weo4zwKup3GZX7U.jpg


Then we saw a pitch document of what apparently was a multiverse multiplayer Spider-Man game that wasn't the Venom one. But that lead us to think that pitch wasn't greenlighted. Or who knows, maybe it evolved to be Spider-Man 3.

So by looking at the leaked documents, seems that Insomniac had some ideas for multiplayer stuff but apparently ended being rejected or cancelled by either themselves or PS Studios/Hermen, SIE/Jimbo or Marvel. Or who knows, maybe the new Ratchet or the new IPs they also were considering would be MP.

But if you ask my personal opinion, I'd bet they considered multiple multiplayer options with pitches and prototypes but like ND they saw the costs could be too high and would affect their SP games, so decided to cancel them and focus instead in SP games, leaving MP stuff to more MP centric studios. And maybe SIE/PS Studios considered that with the 12 GaaS titles (considering a couple could ended being canned) plus their upcoming mobile gaming focused stuff they already had more than enough MP titles to cover the next 10 years or so, so maybe when these documents or pitches were made they were considering a handful more but later they considered they didn't need more.
 
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yurinka

Member
I can't believe how out of touch you are with reality on this. It's laughable at this point. LOL!!!
Well, so far GT7, MLB and Helldivers 2 are GaaS. Marathon's teaser achieved record numbers in Youtube and Bungie games traditionally are big hits. Concord is also being made by ex-Bungie guys and ex-Cod guys, so pretty likely will be a flagship hit too. And looking at the pedigree behind Deviation's title and Fairgame$, it's prety likely they will be very successful oo.

Obviously they won't replace GoW, Spider-Man, Horizon (which will get a GaaS too), Uncharted or TLOU, but I'd say it's correct to assume that some of their already published or to be published GaaS will be (or already are) flagship games too.
 
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JackMcGunns

Member
15M sold on PC. 10M played on Xbox.


First of all, there's no figure showing how many have purchased the game, so you can't say all 10M players are strictly just players who have tried the game, and secondly, Game Pass is not free. So long as they continue to pay for the service, it might as well be considered a purchase.
 

Senua

Member
First of all, there's no figure showing how many have purchased the game, so you can't say all 10M players are strictly just players who have tried the game, and secondly, Game Pass is not free. So long as they continue to pay for the service, it might as well be considered a purchase.
Hmm
 

Gaiff

SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
First of all, there's no figure showing how many have purchased the game, so you can't say all 10M players are strictly just players who have tried the game, and secondly, Game Pass is not free. So long as they continue to pay for the service, it might as well be considered a purchase.
Yes I can say 10M players are strictly just players because that’s exactly what the dev said. Them being players does not mean they cannot simultaneously be buyers.

This is not meant to slight the Xbox so don’t get so defensive. These are the figures we know for a fact.
 
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JackMcGunns

Member
Yes I can say 10M players are strictly just players because that’s exactly what the dev said. Them being players does not mean they cannot simultaneously be buyers.

This is not meant to slight the Xbox so don’t get so defensive. These are the figures we know for a fact.


Same can be said about my answer. I simply stated what was made public and someone got defensive.
 

Mr Moose

Member
First of all, there's no figure showing how many have purchased the game, so you can't say all 10M players are strictly just players who have tried the game, and secondly, Game Pass is not free. So long as they continue to pay for the service, it might as well be considered a purchase.
No. And absolutely no, it is not a sale.

Palworld people said players for Xbox. Steam are sales.
Same can be said about my answer. I simply stated what was made public and someone got defensive.
No you didn't, you made up some information in a sales thread.
60/40 split as well I believe. Out of 25 Million, 10 Million on Xbox and 15 Million on PC.
 
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mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Sony has always done it. They just do it well and it has historically aligned with your tastes.

Nah.....Dreams wouldn't have been created if they didn't care about creativity and only cared about money.

What do you think of Destiny model?

Say, they release a small GOW game. Then released yearly story expansions. Along with modes like GOW Valhalla.


Personally I like that model. But studios have struggled with it like Avengers and maybe Suicide Squad as well.

Pure GAAS games like Fortnite, Helldivers 2, sure studios that are good at that should make them.

I don't love this idea either. I don't trust that Sony or even the devs themselves will ever just get this right. It's hard to do this model of game creation. There's a reason why most have struggled trying to do it. The incentive structure is just HORRIBLE!!!
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
In other roadmap graphs these Online things didn't appear, including ones that had a handful games delayed to a later year, a hint that could make us think it's a more updated roadmap, but this one didn't feature these 'online' expansions. Which could be understood that such pitch wasn't approved or that such plans were cancelled.

venom-game-in-2027-v0-Pin4mw2nCvKe_9LRVLqu5Ga_hin4Weo4zwKup3GZX7U.jpg


Then we saw a pitch document of what apparently was a multiverse multiplayer Spider-Man game that wasn't the Venom one. But that lead us to think that pitch wasn't greenlighted. Or who knows, maybe it evolved to be Spider-Man 3.

So by looking at the leaked documents, seems that Insomniac had some ideas for multiplayer stuff but apparently ended being rejected or cancelled by either themselves or PS Studios/Hermen, SIE/Jimbo or Marvel. Or who knows, maybe the new Ratchet or the new IPs they also were considering would be MP.


Never seen this graph before. It's funny that people like to ignore the fact that Sony's SP games are making MASSIVE profits (ROI is between 40% and 75%) per year for Sony. Even if you pay attention to this graph the only years Insomiac is NOT making a profit is in the years they aren't releasing a game.

Makes you wonder why people seem to think less SP games will be better for Sony though. That way of thinking makes literally no sense.
 

JackMcGunns

Member
No. And absolutely no, it is not a sale.

Palworld people said players for Xbox. Steam are sales.

No you didn't, you made up some information in a sales thread.


60% of sales were on PC, that's the bottom line. I'm not the one who ran towards Palworld numbers, OnQ asked I guess in an attempt to wash out the fact that PC is selling more than consoles now and turn this into a battle against Xbox.

giphy.gif
 

Mr Moose

Member
60% of sales were on PC, that's the bottom line. I'm not the one who ran towards Palworld numbers, OnQ asked I guess in an attempt to wash out the fact that PC is selling more than consoles now and turn this into a battle against Xbox.

giphy.gif
60% of Palworld sales? Or Helldivers II?
 
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