Support NeoGAF

[M1chl]

Even in this case you have to do non trivially cheap memory copies to move data from the slow pool to the fast one which wastes bandwidth and time.

That's true, however data could be "flagged" to which pool they should be store. Don't forget that basically everything on Xbox is virtualised, so this type of stuff is way easier to pull it off than let say on PS5, where it runs on "hw layer"....

 

[Panajev2001a]

That's true, however data could be "flagged" to which pool they should be store. Don't forget that basically everything on Xbox is virtualised, so this type of stuff is way easier to pull it off than let say on PS5, where it runs on "hw layer"....

Agreed, but I am thinking about data that has to be processed by the CPU too.

 

[Md Ray]

Weird choice since the OS needs maybe half that. 10 GB of very fast RAM are probably enough for 1440p though (VXA goes brrrrrr). RTX 3080 has the same amount (but at 760 GB/s).

Remember 10GB of the 3080 is 100% VRAM. But the "10GB for games" on XSX would presumably be shared between both the GPU/CPU, from what I understand, i.e. that 10GB probably acts as both VRAM and system memory leaving 6GB for the OS. Kinda like the Xbox One's "5GB for games" acting as both VRAM + system memory leaving 3GB for the OS, background apps and whatnot.

 

[mrmeh]

Sure, but it also means that there will be memory bandwidth waste to transfer data from one memory address space to the other if the GPU could not access anything beyond the 10 GB pool.

Does it say they can't access it? On PC everything is physically sperate and it's still the highest performing platform. Chillout with the concern.

 

[M1chl]

Agreed, but ai am thinking about data that has to be processed by the CPU too.

I am fairly sure that at least one core is reserved as a scheduler which oversee the copying of the data and whole memory map, how is it done in the virtualised environment.

 

[Heisenberg007]

Maybe its the OS and other things like sound and CPU and 10GB is purely VRAM which a 3080 proves is more than enough. If its the other way and they are using some of the 10GB for sound and CPU cycles etc then that would be some form of negative, how much I do not know. I don't expect these consoles to push native 4K often, and thats when it could become a problem I think.

No, I think 10 GB is solely reserved for gaming. I don't believe that's in question.

Previously, it was stated that games will have access to up to 13.5 GB of RAM. Now it seems like they only have access to 10 GB of RAM. I believe that's the only argument/difference.

 

[reksveks]

Does it say they can't access it? On PC everything is physically sperate and it's still the highest performing platform. Chillout with the concern.

It's okay to be slightly concerned but yeah. don't PC engines have to deal with this anyways?

 

[MonarchJT]

It means that the os only resides in the chips with a lower bw not using all 6GB lol

 

[Heisenberg007]

Like mentioned briefly in the tweet by leviathan gamer. The 6GB will be for the CPU stuff inc OS, the 10GB fast stuff is for the graphics (textures etc) . CPU memory does not need to be super fast with very small gains by using faster ram, Graphics card memory needs all the speed (memory bandwidth is speed * bus width) it can get.

Can we stop going overboard when someone makes a minor mistake on a power point?

No one is going overboard. It's just that now we have two different pieces of information. As I mentioned in one of my other comments, previously we had the following information from Xbox:

"In terms of how the memory is allocated, games get a total of 13.5GB in total, which encompasses all 10GB of GPU optimal memory and 3.5GB of standard memory. This leaves 2.5GB of GDDR6 memory from the slower pool for the operating system and the front-end shell." (Source)

As per this new information from MS, games get a total of 10 GB, and everything else uses the other 6 GB pool -- which you also seem to agree with. But the previous information from MS said something different.

 

[mrmeh]

As per this new information from MS, games get a total of 10 GB, and everything else uses the other 6 GB pool -- which you also seem to agree with. But the previous information from MS said something different.

No.... the game gets to use 10gb for VRAM and 3.5 for CPU (2.5 for OS).

 

[Esppiral]

Only 10 GB for games? Lol

 

[mrmeh]

No one is going overboard.

Only 10 GB for games? Lol

 

[Panajev2001a]

Does it say they can't access it?

No, it can access it at lower speed, but it is not clear cut as this question is not directly asked or addressed hence the “could not” instead of cannot (subjunctive mood).

On PC everything is physically sperate and it's still the highest performing platform.

The two statements are correlated at best. The fact that you can design a higher performing system even despite of split memory does not mean it is the best or the easiest to program for.

Split memory pools have their advantages in terms of bandwidth available to each unit, but also their headaches and ways to waste some of the bandwidth away. MS designed the XSX memory subsystem to be practical and pragmatic too: having a fully unified same speed pool would have been better but the costerformance ratio was likely both good enough.

 

[pasterpl]

"Memory performance is asymmetrical - it's not something we could have done with the PC," explains Andrew Goossen "10 gigabytes of physical memory [runs at] 560GB/s. We call this GPU optimal memory. Six gigabytes [runs at] 336GB/s. We call this standard memory. GPU optimal and standard offer identical performance for CPU audio and file IO. The only hardware component that sees a difference in the GPU."

In terms of how the memory is allocated, games get a total of 13.5GB in total, which encompasses all 10GB of GPU optimal memory and 3.5GB of standard memory. This leaves 2.5GB of GDDR6 memory from the slower pool for the operating system and the front-end shell. From Microsoft's perspective, it is still a unified memory system, even if performance can vary. "In conversations with developers, it's typically easy for games to more than fill up their standard memory quota with CPU, audio data, stack data, and executable data, script data, and developers like such a trade-off when it gives them more potential bandwidth," says Goossen.

Inside Xbox Series X: the full specs

This is it. After months of teaser trailers, blog posts and even the occasional leak, we can finally reveal firm, hard …

www.eurogamer.net

 

[mrmeh]

MS designed the XSX memory subsystem to be practical and pragmatic too: having a fully unified same speed pool would have been better but the costerformance ratio was likely both good enough.

Well that's basically console design ...What can we build for the price point, think both did a great job for price.

 

[DenchDeckard]

Inside Xbox Series X: the full specs

This is it. After months of teaser trailers, blog posts and even the occasional leak, we can finally reveal firm, hard …

www.eurogamer.net

I would trust the official communication, unless something changed. Which will have been vetted, over an employee doing a live conference and potentially missing finer details.

I'm sure it will all be addressed soon.

 

[phil_t98]

Genuinely curious: What added benefits do you think this strategy and implementation will have, as compared to the usual method of having a unified memory pool?

Well the operating system doesn’t need to be lightening fast and it’s still fast memory reguardless , with the SSD they can throw the data in and out of the memory pool really quick anyway. Am sure the PS5 has a huge amount of memory allocation for the operating system to,

 

[Mokus]

LOL! "10 GB VRAM" - games need RAM too, and a lot of it. With some games require more than the others. That is why an unified memory pool on consoles is important, game developers can split it to the games needs.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Genuinely curious: What added benefits do you think this strategy and implementation will have, as compared to the usual method of having a unified memory pool?

Cheaper manufacturing. That is it. Not a bad thing in and of itself, you free resources to spend on something else in the design so it is not a bad choice, but if you think about memory alone a fully unified same speed 16 GB pool will be faster/easier to deal with than a logically split one with two different tiers.

 

[Heisenberg007]

Cheaper manufacturing. That is it. Not a bad thing in and of itself, you free resources to spend on something else in the design so it is not a bad choice, but if you think about memory alone a fully unified same speed 16 GB pool will be faster/easier to deal with than a logically split one with two different tiers.

Yeah, apart from cost-savings, I honestly can't see any significant benefit whatsoever over a unified memory pool -- which is almost always the more preferred option.

 

[Burythelight]

What if it's a variable usage?

 

[CuteFaceJay]

theoretical data the system would never even hit the 336GB/s anyways so whats the problem. The system would be old AF by the time games actually start pushing that amount of data across the internals on.

Sounds like non-issue stuff if you ask me.

 

[TBiddy]

theoretical data the system would never even hit the 336GB/s anyways so whats the problem. The system would be old AF by the time games actually start pushing that amount of data across the internals on.

Sounds like non-issue stuff if you ask me.

And most likely it is. We will see in 2-3 years when games start to really take advantage of the next-gen systems. As it looks, right now, the two systems (XSX and PS5) seems to be very evenly matched in most aspects.

 

[mrmeh]

Yeah, apart from cost-savings, I honestly can't see any significant benefit whatsoever over a unified memory pool -- which is almost always the more preferred option.

Don't think anyone has said its not a unified memory pool? Just that it has a some slower memory for CPU functions.

From the Goosen bit posted above.. "Six gigabytes [runs at] 336GB/s. We call this standard memory. GPU optimal and standard offer identical performance for CPU audio and file IO. The only hardware component that sees a difference in the GPU." - Suggests that the CPU can use the GPU optimised memory.

 

[bender]

 

[mrmeh]

"The only hardware component that sees a difference in the GPU." - Again this just suggests that When loading in textures it uses the GPU optimal memory.

 

[Calverz]

So basically make more ram available and game performance will be better? Ok cool

 

[Heisenberg007]

Don't think anyone has said its not a unified memory pool? Just that it has a some slower memory for CPU functions.

From the Goosen bit posted above.. "Six gigabytes [runs at] 336GB/s. We call this standard memory. GPU optimal and standard offer identical performance for CPU audio and file IO. The only hardware component that sees a difference in the GPU." - Suggests that the CPU can use the GPU optimised memory.

No there are two different memory pools: 10 GB at 560 GB/s and 6 GB at 336 GB/s. MS confirmed it and has always maintained that stance.

 

[SpokkX]

Even IF this was true (which it isnt since it uses the SAME os as one x) - this would be a configuration in SOFTWARE

in other words: OS allocation of memory can be changed up or down by a simple update

this i common practice

In fact this even being a ”topic” only shows one thing - the lack technical understanding by the thread creator (no offense and this is why these presentations are aimed at developers, NOT consumers)

 

[Shmunter]

Large Load Ooof

 

[mrmeh]

No there are two different memory pools: 10 GB at 560 GB/s and 6 GB at 336 GB/s. MS confirmed it and has always maintained that stance.

Just because it is made up of two different speeds of memory does not mean its not unified or accessible in a single pool. Like the chief architect mentioned the CPU is not aware that some of the memory is faster only the GPU is, so it can use it for increased speed.

 

[Nyxir]

Joe Miller is that you

 

[Barlow]

10gb for GPU
6gb for OS
0gb for CPU, Sound etc.

Nice one Warrior

 

[Negotiator101]

I'm a bit confuse...so CPU bandwidth speed is used just for OS? Uh. What about CPU bandwidth speed for the games? Seems a nonsense to me

Well you're no expert.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

Remember 10GB of the 3080 is 100% VRAM. But the "10GB for games" on XSX would presumably be shared between both the GPU/CPU, from what I understand, i.e. that 10GB probably acts as both VRAM and system memory leaving 6GB for the OS. Kinda like the Xbox One's "5GB for games" acting as both VRAM + system memory leaving 3GB for the OS, background apps and whatnot.

Why would they need to use the 10 GB for system memory when they already have 6 GB for it (especially since the OS uses only 2.5 GB)? Makes no sense.

 

[ZehDon]

Seems like confusion rather than contradiction.

For my two cents, the 6GB for the OS doesn’t work when you consider the Xbox Series S, which runs the same OS as the Series X, and which is backward compatible with the Xbone. If the OS required the full 6GB, then the Series S has less RAM available for games than the Xbone. This would prevent the backward compatibility for the Xbone titles.

I expect correction within the next few days.

 

[DarkMage619]

LOL! "10 GB VRAM" - games need RAM too, and a lot of it. With some games require more than the others. That is why an unified memory pool on consoles is important, game developers can split it to the games needs.

I'd wager that MS knows this. Wasn't the X360 the first game console to use unified memory? I remember the PS3 having separate video and system memory. The PS4 was Sony's first system with unified memory.

If we look at the games is there any indication that the XSX only has 10GB of memory dedicated to games? People regularly quoted devs early complaints about the memory pool on the XSS but I don't recall XSX complaints too. Also how do you explain games like Hitman 3 which runs at a higher resolution than on PS5 if the XSX version is limited to only 10GB vs 16GB?

 

[MarkMe2525]

I think it would be a good idea for everyone to go ahead and jump to conclusions. That always has worked in the past, right?

 

[rickybooby87]

I do believe the slide is an over-simplification, but, if only 10GBs is being used for asset data (Textures, shaders, etc), that's going to be a limitation for sure) I am sure once they get around to mid-gen refreshes, they'll ditch the split memory architecture.

 

[DenchDeckard]

for how well the XBox Series X performs, is completely silent and smaller and cooler than the competitions box I would say that their hardware engineers kind of have more of a clue than us on how to design an extremely performant box on a budget (performance or monitory)

 

[mrmeh]

I do believe the slide is an over-simplification, but, if only 10GBs is being used for asset data (Textures, shaders, etc), that's going to be a limitation for sure) I am sure once they get around to mid-gen refreshes, they'll ditch the split memory architecture.

Only...

Think about PC's... most cards are 4-8GB, there's also some cool new tech which should help like SFS etc.. which should help make more out the memory. I imagine its more likely that games may end up using some of the faster Ram for CPU work than wanting to use more than 10gb for texture memory.

Most PCs have 8-16gb of ram just for the CPU...

 

[OptimistPrime]

This is very obviously just a poorly chosen label on a diagram. It’s hilarious seeing everyone suddenly swept up in LARPing this crisis into existence.

 

[Papacheeks]

Seems like a sensible choice to be honest

That's a lot of memory to dedicate to an OS.

And they should have shipped it with more memory if they knew how big the imprint would be. Splitting the memory into 2 different speed is weird.

Ps5 is one large pool of 16gb. And in a instant for paging access it can use the storage as one virtual memory pool if needed.

 

[Kilau]

Papa Phil will acquire some of that 6gb back for our games, trust.

This is probably far more complicated than just 6gb gone to os anyway.

 

[Chiggs]

Way to go, Super Sleuths! You’ve blown the case wide open, and now MS is on its heels.

What an incredible team of technical experts, who are DEFINITELY NOT making something out of nothing.

 

[mrmeh]

That's a lot of memory to dedicate to an OS.

And they should have shipped it with more memory if they knew how big the imprint would be. Splitting the memory into 2 different speed is weird.

Ps5 is one large pool of 16gb. And in a instant for paging access it can use the storage as one virtual memory pool if needed.

Isn't PS5 2GB and PS4 3.5GB... so by what measurement do you think 2.5GB is allot?

 

[Papacheeks]

Isn't PS5 2GB and PS4 3.5GB... so by what measurement do you think 2.5GB is allot?

It's not, but the fact that there are 2 different speeds that memory works at is an odd choice.

And obviously currently that 6gb isn't being used 100% all the time for the OS. But it's odd to have it set like that. Seems Sony way of having all the same speed unified is the more effecient way to go.

I feel this was a OS engineering limitation that would have needed a comply rewrite of console OS from ground up.

 

[Heisenberg007]

Joe Miller is that you

 

[Heisenberg007]

Joe Miller is that you

By the way, initially, I did think it was an honest verbal mistake, but the slide me doubt that. No way, the slide wasn't QA'ed. If this turns out to be incorrect information, then "oversimplification" would be a more likely option than "honest mistake" -- my 2 cents.

 

[ethomaz]

10GB is the full bandwidth game optimized RAM for GPU related tasks.
6GB is the slower RAM for CPU-related tasks.

From these 6GB... at least 2.5GB are reserved to OS so devs can use 3.5GB/s for non-GPU related tasks like audio, file IO and stuffs.