• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Fighting Games Weekly | Jan 27 - Feb 2 | The Power of Gamers

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
That sounds like a pretty interesting idea to base a game on to me.

I'm a believer in execution being the crucial factor in making something look worth playing. And in that sense it becomes something that is incredibly subjective which is why I'm not a fan in particular of trying to distill what one needs to make good characters for a fighting game since there are multiple approaches/not one single approach that developers use.

I'm also a believer in certain cases that people don't really know what they want until they get it. I think GGXrd is a pretty good example of this concerning the visuals. I'm sure many people were expecting Arcsys to stick with their traditional 2D sprites for GGXrd and initially preferred that since 2D to 3D jumps seem to usually lose something in the process if fan comments are anything to go by, but then they came out and wowed us with something that I don't think anyone expected.

I didn't know that I would want 3D visuals that looked 2D but also took advantage of being 3D at the same time but I do know that I want it now.
I'm definitely using strong words here to qualify my opinion, but I agree.

New IPs take time to build up past the point to were they are no longer New IPs when it comes to fighting games.
Do we really have any new, non-anime IPs to substantiate this? Especially in the modern era of gaming? I don't think we do. Can't really look at things using 90s as a frame of reference.
 

Village

Member
I'm just so glad to see my decade-long hatred of anime/otaku culture supported by one of its progenitors. My 30 yo cousin staying at home with his mom wasn't enough ammunition for me.

Sounds like you might need some perspective, and bit more to do.

How do you hold a grudge against an entire section of media, with a fire emblem avatar?

Why not hate specific things instead of the wide spread?
 

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
Do we really have any new, non-anime IPs to substantiate this? Especially in the modern era of gaming? I don't think we do. Can't really look at things using 90s as a frame of reference.
That part doesn't even remotely matter.

BB is a lot bigger now years later than when it first came out. It's not huge but it's proof enough.

GG is a good example as well. It started VERY TINY
 
This comment is giving me flashbacks to some comments Miyazaki recently made about the state of the anime industry.
You're both right.

Ding ding ding ding. Although if I were really going to say something about either case, I'd say that it's the way things work now. Homages and references are starting to become artistic shorthands - and I think its only a problem because it's obnoxious. Congrats, the content makers have seen more people/consumed more media - now they can draw slightly more fluid spittakes for their long-winded seiyuu jokes/ape their genre of choice more accurately. They're still doing it! Their technical skill will not change their interests!

What Miyazaki is saying is not the equivalent to what he's saying.

The main idea of the article is different, yes. It's amazing how different a comment can sound when you cherry pick it for the sake of your own interests - but it's not as amazing when you just switch some words around.

Why would I want to play any of these characters, just looking at their visual design? Look beyond the obvious similarities in colour. What does it tell me about them? Reeks of blandness, with minimal attempts to incorporate what makes a character unique in their aesthetics. If I'm 5 or 21, I can't for the life of me think of why any of this would excite me or even get me to the point where I would consider animations or playstyles.

Their character isn't in their visual design, though. Almost all of their personality is in their moves, lines and the little quirks in their animation. That's why the most visually expressive characters (or the biggest blabbermouths) are the most popular - why there are as many Yamazaki fans as there are Kyo fanboys, why Shingo, of all people, has fans, why people would pop in real life if Tizoc came back for KOF XIV, etc.
 

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
That part doesn't even remotely matter.

BB is a lot bigger now years later than when it first came out. It's not huge but it's proof enough.

GG is a good example as well. It started VERY TINY
I don't think it is, you're presuming a runaway success can't happen, because the genre is the genre. I'd think especially after this generation of gaming, people wouldn't discount the possibility of overnight sucesses that have happened to existing, tenured genres that also have strong brand loyalty such as MOBAs, platformers, action adventure and FPS.

Things will get bigger, but I do believe if something is marketed and produced right, you can have something that's amazing out of the gate. Whether that has the Capcom sticker on it or no sticker at all.

And I say non-anime because it inherently puts roadblocks in appeal. Some people won't buy anime shit full stop, and some is being conservative. That box is smaller than other potential themes.
 
That part doesn't even remotely matter.

BB is a lot bigger now years later than when it first came out. It's not huge but it's proof enough.

GG is a good example as well. It started VERY TINY
We're lucky that Japan bought into BlazBlue as much as they did (from retail to tournaments to arcades). Global sales help too, but damn did it hit all the marks in Japan.
 

Kimosabae

Banned
Sounds like you might need some perspective, and bit more to do.

How do you hold a grudge against an entire section of media, with a fire emblem avatar?

Why not hate specific things instead of the wide spread?

Sounds like I touched a nerve.

It's a Melee avatar.
 

alstein

Member
You can't really judge characters solely based on appearance- stuff like moves, motion, win quotes also tell a story.

Takuma has a great grumpy old man shtick for example.

Oldschool pre-99 KOF is where most of my favorite KOF designs are. I don't like most of the NESTS era designs, though Ash/Duo Lon/Shen were all pretty neat.
 

Village

Member
Sounds like I touched a nerve.

It's a Melee avatar.

Eh, not really.

I just find it unproductive to group and entire thing like that. Anime and otaku culture not even the same thing, even if they do have a shit ton of intersection.

And lastly origin notwithstanding, i just find it funny that someone with a fire emblem avatar is making hard line statements against anime and otaku culture.
 

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
And I say non-anime because it inherently puts roadblocks in appeal. Some people won't buy anime shit full stop, and some is being conservative. That box is smaller than other potential themes.
It put roadblocks there for people that were not going to buy it in the first place so it doesn't really matter. It's better to have a guaranteed market than try to shoot for a universal one that might not catch on at all. Look at all the shitty CoD clone shit and so forth.
 

A Pretty Panda

fuckin' called it, man
Sounds like you might need some perspective, and bit more to do.

How do you hold a grudge against an entire section of media, with a fire emblem avatar?

Why not hate specific things instead of the wide spread?

 

Seyavesh

Member
iori is cool as hell, he hates violence and jams on saxophones but in-game he is just this huge asshole sadist who looks like a goober with his silly belt-legs

iori's saxophone jams in his brain while he wrecks ya


but yeah kof is usually good for the 'whole deal' kinda designs where everything comes together nicely:



that animation plus that voice clip are nice


honestly i think sf4 fails really badly on this front, mostly in terms of the animations and voices. something about them feels really like, 'workable/passable' rather than expressions of the character

i dunno. i can't really word why but the animations and voices really bother me in sf4 in comparison to it's predecessors.
 
It put roadblocks there for people that were not going to buy it in the first place so it doesn't really matter. It's better to have a guaranteed market than try to shoot for a universal one that might not catch on at all. Look at all the shitty CoD clone shit and so forth.
Nintendo has become a nice poster child of this phenomenon if you ask me.
 

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
It put roadblocks there for people that were not going to buy it in the first place so it doesn't really matter. It's better to have a guaranteed market than try to shoot for a universal one that might not catch on at all. Look at all the shitty CoD clone shit and so forth.
I'm not sure what the first sentence means. Why wouldn't they buy it in the first place, before they see the art style?

As for your second point, you're generalizing too much. Clearly derivative works or one's that pander to a specific market like the CoD market are one thing, creating something with broader, not necessarily universal or theme-less, appeal, is something completely different.
 
It put roadblocks there for people that were not going to buy it in the first place so it doesn't really matter. It's better to have a guaranteed market than try to shoot for a universal one that might not catch on at all. Look at all the shitty CoD clone shit and so forth.

You can't say that the mass appeal of not being anime is ineffective when every non-anime fighting game is an existing franchise or license.

How can you be sure it won't catch on when no one has tried?
 

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
I'm not sure what the first sentence means. Why wouldn't they buy it in the first place, before they see the art style?

If art style was honestly the key point for them to not get a game they were not going to enjoy it in the first place.

You can't say that the mass appeal of not being anime is ineffective when every non-anime fighting game is an existing franchise or license.

How can you be sure it won't catch on when no one has tried?
History
 
R

Retro_

Unconfirmed Member
I'm just so glad to see my decade-long hatred of anime/otaku culture supported by one of its progenitors. My 30 yo cousin staying at home with his mom wasn't enough ammunition for me.

Anime ruins everything. Miyazaki knows.

Well to be fair Miyazaki is also kind of a crazy old guy who doesn't use any modern technology in his personal life and sort of hates video games
 
Fighting game art designers need to tackle a more human approach to fighting games instead of going full on bizarre/jarring with their direction. Consider the characters personality and reflect it through their clothing and speech patterns. different colored gis doesn't tell me much about someone

It sounds like you need to play more 3D fighters.
 

Vice

Member
The problem with new IPs in fighting games is that no major company outside of ArcSys has created one in nearly two decades. Capcom, SNK, Namco and Midway have been making the same franchises since the 90s and stopped new ideas shortly after.

Original IPs in the fighting game world are rare, anime or not. There's no examples of a company trying to create a new non-anime franchise since the turn of the century IIRC.
 

Kimosabae

Banned
Eh, not really.

I just find it unproductive to group and entire thing like that. Anime and otaku culture not even the same thing, even if they do have a shit ton of intersection.

And lastly origin notwithstanding, i just find it funny that someone with a fire emblem avatar is making hard line statements against anime and otaku culture.

You assume way too much and have a hard time making distinctions.

It's pretty obvious some jock smothered your Goku plushie with your own tears and punted it square between the outstretched arms of some giggling blonde cheerleader into a trash can during your freshman year in high school.
 

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
Which is a pretty shitty measure, especially considering gamers and the industry today is nothing like it was 9 years ago, from what makes something successful to what makes something a failure.

I really do think y'all are on some nonsense, these are pretty bad justifications using either antiquated factors or those that are very specific to failures with many more confounding variables than what a theoretical new IP could suggest.

Well I think there's a reason not many people have tried it.
Budget and judging market size. But we are talking a theoretical if those things line up, and people are still saying it wouldn't push through, which is absurd IMO.
 
what about yatagarasu. I'm waiting for that hype ultradavid commentary.

edit: have no idea what this conversation is about. Just throwing yatagarasu out there
 

A Pretty Panda

fuckin' called it, man
You assume way too much and have a hard time making distinctions.

It's pretty obvious some jock smothered your Goku plushie with your own tears and punted it square between the outstretched arms of some giggling blonde cheerleader into a trash can during your freshman year in high school.

Whoa.

Which neogaf post twitter do I send this one to?
 

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
Which is a pretty shitty measure, especially considering gamers and the industry today is nothing like it was 9 years ago, from what makes something successful to what makes something a failure.

I really do think y'all are on some nonsense, these are pretty bad justifications using either antiquated factors or those that are very specific to failures with many more confounding variables than what a theoretical new IP could suggest.

You are right, it's actually a whole lot worse these days and more close minded than before.
 
R

Retro_

Unconfirmed Member
Which is a pretty shitty measure, especially considering gamers and the industry today is nothing like it was 9 years ago, from what makes something successful to what makes something a failure.

I really do think y'all are on some nonsense, these are pretty bad justifications using either antiquated factors or those that are very specific to failures with many more confounding variables than what a theoretical new IP could suggest.

What do you think makes a fighting game successful?

Of what you consider the most successful fighting game brands this generation, explain why they were so successful?
 

Dahbomb

Member
You assume way too much and have a hard time making distinctions.

It's pretty obvious some jock smothered your Goku plushie with your own tears and punted it square between the outstretched arms of some giggling blonde cheerleader into a trash can during your freshman year in high school.
That sounds like it happened to you with how much detail you describe it.
 
Eh, not really.

I just find it unproductive to group and entire thing like that. Anime and otaku culture not even the same thing, even if they do have a shit ton of intersection.

And lastly origin notwithstanding, i just find it funny that someone with a fire emblem avatar is making hard line statements against anime and otaku culture.

If art style was honestly the key point for them to not get a game they were not going to enjoy it in the first place.

If a person considers their time to be valuable, and they consider any fighting game to be as good as the next one, then they need a way to filter their choices. So when they come across a game that doesn't gel with them - or something that's visually repugnant, considering how some people react to air-dashers (I'm serious, their faces scrunch up and everything) - they pass on it. That's the magic of Standards.

It's also why people who have Standards but still place more value on gameplay get so bummed out when a game they like has an artstyle they hate. The clash between satisfying gameplay and repugnant aesthetics just gets them so mad! For closer reference, see every major SFII player who passed on HD Remix until the pots got a little sweeter.

what about yatagarasu. I'm waiting for that hype ultradavid commentary.

edit: have no idea what this conversation is about. Just throwing yatagarasu out there

The devs are dealing with a few delays, but they've made some decent progress.

I still need to give Yatagarasu a spin before AoC comes out.
 

Village

Member
You assume way too much and have a hard time making distinctions.
I didn't assume anything of anyone, I didn't even suggest you liked fire emblem. I thought it was funny due to the context of your avatar.

Edit: It would be like if someone had a Donald Glover avatar from community, but was arguing against rap music. Its just a funny visual joke.

It's pretty obvious some jock smothered your Goku plushie with your own tears and punted it square between the outstretched arms of some giggling blonde cheerleader into a trash can during your freshman year in high school.
Whoah, uh... I don't even?

You projectin' homie?
 

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
If a person considers their time to be valuable, and they consider any fighting game to be as good as the next one, then they need a way to filter their choices. So when they come across a game that doesn't gel with them - or something that's visually repugnant, considering how some people react to air-dashers (I'm serious, their faces scrunch up and everything) - they pass on it. That's the magic of Standards.

It's also why people who have Standards but still place more value on gameplay get so bummed out when a game they like has an artstyle they hate. The clash between satisfying gameplay and repugnant aesthetics just gets them so mad! For closer reference, see every major SFII player who passed on HD Remix until the pots got a little sweeter.

People passed on HD remix for 2 reasons art and gameplay, gameplay being a big ass reason for people that were purist. The game actually had pretty decent sells at the start if I remember right.
 

alstein

Member
People passed on HD remix for 2 reasons art and gameplay, gameplay being a big ass reason for people that were purist. The game actually had pretty decent sells at the start if I remember right.

It sold at least 250k. The purists to me weren't really purists, they just didn't like their 10yr competitive advantage being reduced.
 

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
You are right, it's actually a whole lot worse these days and more close minded than before.
Pretty much exactly the inverse of this in reality. When you have the indie scene as successful as it is today, and complicated games like LoL can sustain a playerbase so large and consistently, there is way more opportunity today, largely because of how great the potential playerbase is now. Way more people are playing video games today than they were last gen, and that's not just mobile/Facebook/Wii markets, but in the core markets as well. Something with as weird and unconventional of a pitch as Minecraft is now one of the biggest and most influential games ever.

Yeah there are inherently problems with the genre ATM, but I think blaming the consumers or people at large is a massive cop out. Make better, more competitive products, and people will gravitate towards them. If it's not as successful for some reason, there might be a problem with the product, be it a preferential thing or something more objective that's lacking. Blaming preference is further in the deep end.
 

Silky

Banned
I got an invalid link notice pop up on GAF and I yelled "what the fuck how did I get banned this time"

yeah enzo your argument regading KOF having plain designs is weird but I dont really wanna repeat what's been said already (cause im lazy.) preferences and all that
 
Top Bottom