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Fighting Games Weekly | Jan 27 - Feb 2 | The Power of Gamers

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
Pretty much exactly the inverse of this in reality. When you have the indie scene as successful as it is today, and complicated games like LoL can sustain a playerbase so large and consistently, there is way more opportunity today, largely because of how great the potential playerbase is now. Way more people are playing video games today than they were last gen, and that's not just mobile/Facebook/Wii markets, but in the core markets as well. Something with as weird and unconventional of a pitch as Minecraft is now one of the biggest and most influential games ever.

Yeah there are inherently problems with the genre ATM, but I think blaming the consumers or people at large is a massive cop out. Make better, more competitive products, and people will gravitate towards them. If it's not as successful for some reason, there might be a problem with the product, be it a preferential thing or something more objective that's lacking. Blaming preference is further in the deep end.

Well when the audience grows the %'s stay roughly the same. So even if more people buy such and such. Is it really a bigger % of people than it was before?
 
People passed on HD remix for 2 reasons art and gameplay, gameplay being a big ass reason for people that were purist. The game actually had pretty decent sells at the start if I remember right.

There was a mix of reactions - my only mistake was saying 'many' instead of 'some'. Some were out because of the look, some were out because of the gameplay changes, some of the weekend warriors thought the whole thing was compromised because Sirlin was so obviously going to use his new top-tier Honda to clean up tourneys nationwide, etc. I would have edited it, but I'm getting blown up by my modem.
 

I-hate-u

Member


Man I wish I was this guy

This looks like inferior dubbed DBZ box sets
 

Village

Member


Man I wish I was this guy

Semi related.

When I was like 11 , I drove into dc over a cousins house and she gave me like a bag full of DBZ vhs episodes and movies from like the beginning of the series to the end. I still have that shit in a bag in my basement. She off loaded a lot of her nerdy junk she didn't really need any more onto me.

It was a cool thing to have when I was bored and younger, sadly I don't have a VHS to play them on anymore.

I wonder if I should sell them?
 

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
Well when the audience grows the %'s stay roughly the same. So even if more people buy such and such. Is it really a bigger % of people than it was before?
I'm not sure what you mean by % exactly or how you would even quantify such a thing, but transitively, what does it matter if the % doesn't grow? There's still growth within the genre itself. You don't necessarily need to be taking from other genres. Hell, there could be a decrease in % and still a net positive if the audience at large grows.

It sold at least 250k. The purists to me weren't really purists, they just didn't like their 10yr competitive advantage being reduced.
IIRC I think HD Remix is one of their most successful digital releases, and their most successful fighting game digital release by far.
 

Vice

Member
You are right, it's actually a whole lot worse these days and more close minded than before.

There's a serious lack of effort from most developers though. While there's a risk of failure in a the fighting genre companies have no problem tossing money into other genres with high budgets that are sent off to die.

They have incredible clout in the fighting genre and can draw on their legacy as makers of the most fondly remembered fighting games to create a new IP similar to the way Respawn and Bungie are doing with their next games, but play it safe in the fighting genre while sinking loads of money into the most over saturated and costly genres on the market.

It's difficult to say if the market is worse when the companies that are the most popular in the genre don't make new IPs for it. ArcSys games are great but they ca't afford to push a game in the same way Capcom or Warner Bros. could.
 

Seyavesh

Member
overall while character designs can be important, i think kof is a good showcase of how ultimately animation/voice are way more important- take someone like ryo, who's honestly a pretty tame design- standard kung-fu guy lookin' fare with a bit of flair in his orange gi:


however, stuff like his intro just look cool as hell and give him that flair that many games lack for their characters (seriously sf4 i am looking at youuuu! i get that ultras are supposed to fulfill this purpose but only having that kinda 'expression' in cinematics is wrong and bad!)


i actually think snk messed up real bad by doing whatever they did with kof13: the difference in what is visually interesting and somewhat character defining between this stance:

and this stance:


are astronomical
 

Silky

Banned
overall while character designs can be important, i think kof is a good showcase of how ultimately animation/voice are way more important- take someone like ryo, who's honestly a pretty tame design- standard kung-fu guy lookin' fare with a bit of flair in his orange gi:


however, stuff like his intro just look cool as hell and give him that flair that many games lack for their characters (seriously sf4 i am looking at youuuu! i get that ultras are supposed to fulfill this purpose but only having that kinda 'expression' in cinematics is wrong and bad!)


i actually think snk messed up real bad by doing whatever they did with kof13: the difference in what is visually interesting and somewhat character defining between this stance:

and this stance:


are astronomical


Ryo's 13 animation is similar to his stuff in AOF1-3 and CvS2. It's a throwback
 
That's a good point, too, Seyavesh. I've gone to bat for Nonoa's redesigns before, but I also think that his spritework was too straightforward - most of the interesting movements were cribbed from older games, and some of the stuff he came up with on his own was a bit plain (although he knocked it out of the park with some of the goofier characters like Chin, Kensou and Hwa).
 

Dahbomb

Member
It doesn't necessarily have to stem from a trope, I just think watering down visual designs to be relatable gives you exactly what you said; a bunch of different people in gis. In games where people are throwing fireballs and doing superhuman shit, I'd rather the visual designs be more congruent with the game design at large. I wouldn't want to play a UFC-esque fighting game using a cast full of demons and mages, for the inverse example. I think it's important to have some very clear, distinctive colour palette (something that especially makes a lot of KoF's designs forgettable) and some visual flair that gives that character personality. Doesn't matter to me what's written in their bio if I don't get that feel the entire time I'm fighting.
It's a shame you don't see it like other people do. Having "ordinary dudes" in an extraordinary universe is perfectly fine... in fact if done right it makes the ordinary dudes stand out. Case in point Ryu in UMVC3... dude is so simple as far as visual design goes but hits simplicity goes a long way in defining his character. Hell even Chris, Haggar and Frank are just generic dudes alongside super powers.

Now as far as your examples go, I am going to look at them like I am seeing them for the first time:

1) Immediately when I see this guy it looks a dude who practices Taek-Won-Do based on his get up. I could be completely wrong here but at least there is some basis for his character design. This differentiates him from the typical shoto/karate archetype in fighting games. Since Taek-Won-Do is more defined around kicking.. if I like to use kicks more in combat this character would interest me. The character design is simple but its tells a lot.

2) This guy looks like your karate equivalent of the game. His stance tells me he is more authentic to karate than Ryu is in SF. He is also older, looks seasoned and is jacked up as fuck (look at those limbs). Seems like this character packs quite a punch while having proper techniques and stances. Again... simple design but no different than Ryu in SF who is a "classical" fighting game character design.

3) This guy looks like a street fighter (literally, like he goes around brawling for fights on the streets in cities while looking cool). Looks young and seems to be wearing fashionable clothes. I can tell that he normally fights because of his gloves and I guess his stance. If I like cool looking young dudes (which A LOT of people can relate with or at least want to relate with) then I am picking this guy as my first guy. His design is not so over the top where you would laugh at him if you saw him in real life yet his fashion sense is still uncommon enough to be interesting.

4) Easily the most interesting character picked out of the bunch or the weirdest depending on how you want to approach it. Looks like a female with the body structure. The hand is emanating a dark cloud like energy which tells me she has special powers of some sort (dark in nature most likely). This contrasts greatly with her suit which is all white along with her skin tone and hair color. She is smirking which tells me she is probably not a protagonist type character (could be wrong but it interests me). The suit is a bit over the top... you aren't going to see normal humans wearing this in public but that makes her not simple/bland... it makes her unique/interesting. I honestly don't know why you picked this character.

5) Probably the worst character picked out of the bunch. Not that this character is simple or bland... but on the surface this character looks bad. He has a flaming red/white gi on so he obviously follows some martial arts discipline but its hard to tell what exactly based on his fighting style. The long hair is weird on the character, he is well built for a fighter but the design is a bit over the place as most people who practice some form of martial arts don't look like that. He is sort of like a Ken type design only done much worse.



Basically I think all except the last one are good designs. They are simple yet effective and I would want to play as some of them just to try them out.
 

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
What do you think makes a fighting game successful?

Of what you consider the most successful fighting game brands this generation, explain why they were so successful?
Same stuff that makes any game successful:

Novelty (In all aspects, but mechanics too)
Identity (strong brands help here, but can also set you up for failure because of franchise standards)
Accessibility (Beyond just controls, we're talking platforms it's on, how easy it is to explain via word of mouth and get into)
Appeal (overlaps with identity and accessibility a bit, but it's more of what catches someone's eye and keeps it)
Depth (in features and mechanics)
Marketing (you can have the best game in the world but if you market it wrong or nobody knows about it it doesn't matter)
Support (Games are services, and if they're not treated like them at all, they will die out)
Social aspects (Can there be a community built around it? Probably, if it's worth talking about)

It's a shame you don't see it like other people do. Having "ordinary dudes" in an extraordinary universe is perfectly fine... in fact if done right it makes the ordinary dudes stand out. Case in point Ryu in UMVC3... dude is so simpe as far as visual design goes but hits simplicity goes a long way in defining his character. Hell even Chris, Haggar and Frank are just generic dudes alongside super powers.
I don't think Chris or Frank are good character designs. Haggar and Ryu are slightly better because they have pretty distinct colour schemes, but I think if someone made a game with Ryu today it would be a bit lacking just because of how that sort of image has been cloned to death.

UMvC3 is made up of an ensemble cast and before you see the characters, you already know it will try to create mash ups to try and create congruency where there wouldn't be otherwise. Same goes for Smash.
 
Is that an AA grab into rush punch? Jesus, I didn't think it was possible to make rush punches any cooler.
FGW | Schoolgirls go E-Sports

Mike Z improved Skullgirls usability for blind players. http://shoryuken.com/2014/01/31/mik...e-to-enhance-accessibility-for-blind-players/

Big Band is nearing completion. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=18NZi6HGGdk
Upon receiving the community member’s feedback, Zaimont got to work, taking about a day (spread out over a single week) to patch in special functionality. During that time, he edited the code to work in conjunction with programs like ClipTrap and ClipReader, which respectively keep a log of all clipboard data and read that text aloud, before reediting with new input from the player after each nightly update.

Now almost all of Skullgirls’ texts – except the credits screen, art gallery, and minor accents on letters - can be transposed by text-to-speech programs. Blind players should also have an easier time inviting friends to the game and selecting the the yes-no dialog boxes.

In a Gamestop article from 2009, Blind Adrenaline owner Che Martin commented on why mainstream developers are unresponsive to sightless communities. “There’s not enough money in it for the mainstream developers to make their games blind-accessible, so they don’t even worry about it,” he said. “I’ve got a friend working in LA doing graphics for a video game company, and I had him run it up the flagpole with the folks he knew there about putting in some accessible features. They weren’t even interested.”

In comparison, Zaimont said the only difficulty was getting the clipboard unicode to work.

“I’m pretty surprised other PC developers haven’t done this. Most text and informational things are already updated on screen so you don’t have to write special code to generate new text for most situations,” he said. “It takes very little time, and if more people can potentially enjoy your game, there’s really no reason not to do it.”
Wippler stays forever workn. I love how you can practically be at ground zero for these sorts of things when it comes to LZG. It was brought up in the IRC a few days ago when I was just chilling in there and that's how the fixes came about iirc.
There's a serious lack of effort from most developers though. While there's a risk of failure in a the fighting genre companies have no problem tossing money into other genres with high budgets that are sent off to die.

They have incredible clout in the fighting genre and can draw on their legacy as makers of the most fondly remembered fighting games to create a new IP similar to the way Respawn and Bungie are doing with their next games, but play it safe in the fighting genre while sinking loads of money into the most over saturated and costly genres on the market.

It's difficult to say if the market is worse when the companies that are the most popular in the genre don't make new IPs for it. ArcSys games are great but they ca't afford to push a game in the same way Capcom or Warner Bros. could.
Companies will deliver what they think the audience wants. So far they seem to want sequels which is okay if it's sustainable.

Also, developers have limits. Publishers decide what gets made in the end.
 
R

Retro_

Unconfirmed Member
There's a serious lack of effort from most developers though. While there's a risk of failure in a the fighting genre companies have no problem tossing money into other genres with high budgets that are sent off to die.

They have incredible clout in the fighting genre and can draw on their legacy as makers of the most fondly remembered fighting games to create a new IP similar to the way Respawn and Bungie are doing with their next games, but play it safe in the fighting genre while sinking loads of money into the most over saturated and costly genres on the market.

It's difficult to say if the market is worse when the companies that are the most popular in the genre don't make new IPs for it. ArcSys games are great but they ca't afford to push a game in the same way Capcom or Warner Bros. could.

Fighting games are alot more limited I feel. Like I understand some of the arguments about the potential to expand but I think you guys are really underestimating how narrow the focus of fighting games are. In fact you comparing them to games as vastly different as Bungie and Respawn's new efforts demonstrates that to me.
 

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
It's getting late, thread title voting go.

FGW | Enzo hates KoF

Fighting games are alot more limited I feel. Like I understand some of the arguments about the potential to expand but I think you guys are really underestimating how narrow the focus of fighting games are. In fact you comparing them to games as vastly different as Bungie and Respawn's new efforts demonstrates that to me.
What about LoL? I definitely think that mostly has to do with perception though, and that's why breaking that perception and having something as novel to the genre and gamers in general as possible is key (I think either you or someone else made this point earlier in this thread).

I don't agree it's flat out impossible, even in the current time.
 

Riposte

Member
Hate to be that guy, but if we are throwing rocks at "otaku", the houses of competitive smash players have more windows to worry about than most (more than Fire Emblem fans, anyway).

I think trying to use that Miyazaki comment to say something is a bad look. It's the kind of thing were people can take a statement to mean exactly what they want and, perhaps more importantly, make it mean as much as they want. There's a lot to talk about, but trying to level up one's confirmation bias isn't really making any of that talk intelligent (I mean, how are we going to tap into the conversation of what there is to appreciate about animation in general if we can't get anywhere on the topic of bitching about "new stuff" or the actual state of anime as it is now). Anime discussion, if it can be called that as opposed to apathetic shit-flinging, on GAF is sub-/a/ tier (the latter is actually hilarious even when it is terrible). Funny, how people were just complaining in this thread how clueless people sound outside this thread sound on the topic of fighting games.



EDIT: I think Capcom would make some dough if in place of a traditional fighting game, "Capcom All Stars" was like Anarchy Reigns with more of a DOTA influence (not actually a DOTA to be clear). If I was in charge and had the responsibility to make cash in addition to making something that would be fun, that's where I would go.
 

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
Hate to be that guy, but if we are throwing rocks at "otaku", the houses of competitive smash players have more windows to worry about than most (more than Fire Emblem fans, anyway).

I think trying to use that Miyazaki comment to say something is a bad look. It's the kind of thing were people can take a statement to mean exactly what they want and, perhaps more importantly, make it mean as much as they want. There's a lot to talk about, but trying to level up one's confirmation bias isn't really making any of that talk intelligent (I mean, how are we going to tape into the conversation of what there is to appreciate about animation in general if we can't get anywhere on the topic of bitching about "new stuff" or the actual state of anime as it is now). Anime discussion, if it can be called that as opposed to apathetic shit-flinging, on GAF is sub-/a/ tier (the latter is actually hilarious even when it is terrible). Funny, how people were just complaining in this thread how clueless people sound outside this thread sound on the topic of fighting games.



EDIT: I think Capcom would make some dough if in place of a traditional fighting game, "Capcom All Stars" was like Anarchy Reigns with more of a DOTA influence (not actually a DOTA to be clear).
 
There's a serious lack of effort from most developers though. While there's a risk of failure in a the fighting genre companies have no problem tossing money into other genres with high budgets that are sent off to die.

That's true, but at the same time I feel like we dodged a bullet from the larger companies - I shudder to think what particular rabbit holes they would have dived into to make new IPs that pandered to different markets. Watching them huddle together for cross-promotion is probably one of the least disasterous ways last gen could have ended. Besides, smaller companies have been picking up the slack making new games, and I think it sort of balances things out.

They have incredible clout in the fighting genre and can draw on their legacy as makers of the most fondly remembered fighting games to create a new IP similar to the way Respawn and Bungie are doing with their next games, but play it safe in the fighting genre while sinking loads of money into the most over saturated and costly genres on the market.

Eh, I wouldn't say that. They tried that in the '90s and early '00s, and that backfired more often than it worked. It wasn't just market saturation - for as many different series as the kings of the genre were churning out, the reactions to the whole body of work was pretty mixed. People took away different things from different games - two people could look at a game (like Plasma Sword or Buriki One) and while one would think it's great, the other could take it as proof that the devs fell off the wagon.
And that was back in their prime. I think that Namco's the only big dev with a long history of fighting games that has enough resources and knowhow to make a new fighting game series and get it over on their own.

It's difficult to say if the market is worse when the companies that are the most popular in the genre don't make new IPs for it. ArcSys games are great but they ca't afford to push a game in the same way Capcom or Warner Bros. could.

That's true.
 
R

Retro_

Unconfirmed Member
What about LoL? I definitely think that mostly has to do with perception though, and that's why breaking that perception and having something as novel to the genre and gamers in general as possible is key (I think either you or someone else made this point earlier in this thread).

I don't agree it's flat out impossible, even in the current time.

Well what I meant is that it's unfair to compare something broad to something narrow. You can't look at the whole of shooters and say "why aren't fighting games like that?" because Fighting games aren't as broad a genre. They're a subset of a broader Action genre. One defined by constraining characteristics like being PvP focused, 1v1 and even down to the control schemes or whether the fighting takes place on a 2D plane or a 3D one.

Unlike the broad shooter genre, there's not as much room to innovate and add shit like MMO mechanics and smartphone tie-ins and robot vehichles to fighting games. I think this gen we've had some successful new head to head competitive action games like the Naruto games and the Gundam Vs series, but as far as traditional fighting games go I just don't see there being much room to create something new that will catch the eyes of the masses. What makes a 2D fighitng game or a 3D fighting game that the established audience typically wants to play is too constricting. (We even excluded games like Smash until very recently)

As for LoL I think some games just get lucky at being the right thing at the right time. Like WoW and Minecraft and the like. I really don't see what that has to do with fighting games. Nothing you can really aim to do.
 
I am generally rather ambivalent to anime design and can be caught off guard at times.. causeing quite the eyeroll (especially some of the hyper sexualized stuff). But even then, I find KOF's designs to be quite great. They animate really really well and, on average, really do repesent the fighting style through their default animation or stance.
 
Hate to be that guy, but if we are throwing rocks at "otaku", the houses of competitive smash players have more windows to worry about than most (more than Fire Emblem fans, anyway).

I think trying to use that Miyazaki comment to say something is a bad look. It's the kind of thing were people can take a statement to mean exactly what they want and, perhaps more importantly, make it mean as much as they want. There's a lot to talk about, but trying to level up one's confirmation bias isn't really making any of that talk intelligent (I mean, how are we going to tap into the conversation of what there is to appreciate about animation in general if we can't get anywhere on the topic of bitching about "new stuff" or the actual state of anime as it is now). Anime discussion, if it can be called that as opposed to apathetic shit-flinging, on GAF is sub-/a/ tier (the latter is actually hilarious even when it is terrible). Funny, how people were just complaining in this thread how clueless people sound outside this thread sound on the topic of fighting games.



EDIT: I think Capcom would make some dough if in place of a traditional fighting game, "Capcom All Stars" was like Anarchy Reigns with more of a DOTA influence (not actually a DOTA to be clear). If I was in charge and had the responsibility to make cash in addition to making something that would be fun, that's where I would go.

I was actually going to make big post in that thread concerning what you've addressed here, but I lose 95% of any motivation I have to do anything as soon as I leave work.
 

Infinite

Member
Well what I meant is that it's unfair to compare something broad to something narrow. You can't look at the whole of shooters and say "why aren't fighting games like that?" because Fighting games aren't as broad a genre. They're a subset of a broader Action genre. One defined by constraining characteristics like being PvP focused, 1v1 and even down to the control schemes or whether the fighting takes place on a 2D plane or a 3D one.

Unlike the broad shooter genre, there's not as much room to innovate and add shit like MMO mechanics and smartphone tie-ins and robot vehichles to fighting games. I think this gen we've had some successful new head to head competitive action games like the Naruto games and the Gundam Vs series, but as far as traditional fighting games go I just don't see there being much room to create something new that will catch the eyes of the masses. What makes a 2D fighitng game or a 3D fighting game that the established audience typically wants to play is too constricting. (We even excluded games like Smash until very recently)

As for LoL I think some games just get lucky at being the right thing at the right time. Like WoW and Minecraft and the like. I really don't see what that has to do with fighting games. Nothing you can really aim to do.

This guy understands.
 
Hate to be that guy, but if we are throwing rocks at "otaku", the houses of competitive smash players have more windows to worry about than most (more than Fire Emblem fans, anyway).

I think trying to use that Miyazaki comment to say something is a bad look. It's the kind of thing were people can take a statement to mean exactly what they want and, perhaps more importantly, make it mean as much as they want. There's a lot to talk about, but trying to level up one's confirmation bias isn't really making any of that talk intelligent (I mean, how are we going to tap into the conversation of what there is to appreciate about animation in general if we can't get anywhere on the topic of bitching about "new stuff" or the actual state of anime as it is now). Anime discussion, if it can be called that as opposed to apathetic shit-flinging, on GAF is sub-/a/ tier (the latter is actually hilarious even when it is terrible). Funny, how people were just complaining in this thread how clueless people sound outside this thread sound on the topic of fighting games.



EDIT: I think Capcom would make some dough if in place of a traditional fighting game, "Capcom All Stars" was like Anarchy Reigns with more of a DOTA influence (not actually a DOTA to be clear). If I was in charge and had the responsibility to make cash in addition to making something that would be fun, that's where I would go.

Hey! I know...some stuff about Japanese animation. More than most. A bit too much, in some cases. I'm more into Russian animation, though. But I'm part of the problem, I'll admit that.

I like your idea about Capcom All Stars, though. That would work out pretty well, the general mechanics can fill in the crevices on how all those different series would work together. Plus, there's a better chance of Gene getting in.

It's getting late, thread title voting go.

FGW | Enzo hates KoF

FGW | Sub-/a/ Tier
OR
FGW | /a/−−− Tier

FGW | Arcades are empty, and all the new IPs are there
 

Seyavesh

Member
That's a good point, too, Seyavesh. I've gone to bat for Nonoa's redesigns before, but I also think that his spritework was too straightforward - most of the interesting movements were cribbed from older games, and some of the stuff he came up with on his own was a bit plain (although he knocked it out of the park with some of the goofier characters like Chin, Kensou and Hwa).

if he's the dude who did the art for kof12/13, then i really dislike his redesigns, haha.

however, iori's idle stance having a snake-like 'slither' to it is genius and isn't something present in older animations:


speaking of personality in idle animations, i present robert garcia:




and then kof12/13

i don't care if it's a throwback at all, what i want is interesting animation that creates a cool character. i know robert's animation is basically a more refined version of his 98 stance, but c'mon man you have such a wide base to draw from
 

GooeyHeat

Member
-character descriptions from pictures-
Your analysis makes perfect sense, and is also spot-on for the first three. #1 is Kim Kaphwan, Tae-Kwon-Do mainstay of the series. #2 is Takuma Sakazaki, master of Kyokugen karate, who taught his son Ryo and his daughter Yuri, as well as Robert Garcia and (most likely) Kushnood Butt. And #3 is Kyo Kusanagi, basically the main character of the KoF series, a cocky teenager (at least early on; I'm not sure if people actually age in this series, but I think they might) who gets into fights on the street with his flame powers mixed with a rough-and-tumble, hard-hitting style.

#4 is Saiki, who you were basically right about apart from the gender. That's a dude.
#5 is Andy Bogard, Terry's brother who took a more serious approach to martial arts with some sort of weirdly defined ninja-ish style that I never really got, so I can see how his design doesn't convey much.
 

Kimosabae

Banned
I can't believe people took that anime post seriously. It's like the history of my posts regarding tolerance meant absolutely nothing.
 
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