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Fighting Games Weekly | Jan 27 - Feb 2 | The Power of Gamers

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
Whenever I see people in here talk about what they want from a new IP or breakout fighter I can only think that they want to be swept off their feet by some prince Bungie, Valve or Sony with major marketing dollars, brands and tournament pots. What they don't get is just how impossibly high the bar is set and how precarious a genre this is to support in the first place.

It's kinda ridiculous and because I never really bothered to quote these sorts of posts I can understand why I'll be viewed this way. Someone up above mentioned why LoL, CoD or WoW are mentioned in here and I'd say this is a part of that.
This is why I used LoL as an example. Riot came out of nowhere and did it themselves. It's the counter-example to the notion that you need a juggernaut. I have never framed any of my arguments with the assumption that you need a megapublisher behind it to get it off of the ground. You need a good product, which is why people gravitated to the likes of LoL and Minecraft (another example I used) which are amongst the biggest games today standing next to the megapublishers and giving them the finger.

This is why I'm confused where the Bungie thing came from, the arguments didn't stem from needing some 700 man team or anything, even though we all know budget matters, especially when it comes to marketing.
 

Omega

Banned
Surely someone here can come up with a corny title that involves the Broncos needing a comeback mechanic or something

FGW | Not even Level 3 XF Vergil could save the Broncos

I suck at these things. :(

FGW | Only losers play defense

FGW | Flappy Birds to main event EVO
 

Kalamari

Member
I would want Bungie of 2002 to make a fighting game, but not Bungie of 2014. Bungie isn't the same as it used to be. They were known for pushing the envelope, but now they just mail it in.
 
Yeah that's the thing. Nintendo barely allowed they're regular game to be used last year. I doubt they've budged enough to allow a fanmod of one of they're games.

At this rate, I'd hope they wouldn't block anything because Apex was pretty big this year and last thing they fucking need is more bad press.
 

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
I would want Bungie of 2002 to make a fighting game, but not Bungie of 2014. Bungie isn't the same as it used to be. They were known for pushing the envelope, now they just mail it in.
Bungie got tired of Halo when they started making ODST and it showed. Reach, their most recent game, is still one of the most integrated console games, and so many games have jacked it's UI.

Destiny, from the looks of things, looks REALLY ambitious, I don't see how you could say they're mailing it in there.. it's pretty much pushing the next big innovation in matchmaking. I think something like one of the planets in Destiny is bigger then all the environments in all of the Halos combined or something ridiculous like that.
 

Dahbomb

Member
I would want Bungie of 2002 to make a fighting game, but not Bungie of 2014. Bungie isn't the same as it used to be. They were known for pushing the envelope, but now they just mail it in.
Halo 1-3 were all solid to great games and pushed the envelope in terms of console online functionality. Halo 4 wasn't made by Bungie and the quality difference was obvious.

We have to see how Destiny stacks up to see Bungie's 2014 form.

As far as which publisher can tackle fighting games and do it right.. the answer is obviously Valve. They seem to get multiplayer games and they know how to support/balance them. Their reputation alone would allow people to get hyped up over a new fighting game by them. If they make a fighting game using DOTA 2 characters...............

OH BOY.....
 

Omega

Banned
Halo 1-3 were all solid to great games and pushed the envelope in terms of console online functionality. Halo 4 wasn't made by Bungie and the quality difference was obvious.

We have to see how Destiny stacks up to see Bungie's 2014 form.

As far as which publisher can tackle fighting games and do it right.. the answer is obviously Valve. They seem to get multiplayer games and they know how to support/balance them. Their reputation alone would allow people to get hyped up over a new fighting game by them. If they make a fighting game using DOTA 2 characters...............

OH BOY.....

Would be cool but I doubt it ever happens. Fighting games aren't big enough, let alone on PC. SF seems to be the only thing people play on here. I can never get a match on KOF, Injustice has like 4 people max during peak hours.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Would be cool but I doubt it ever happens. Fighting games aren't big enough, let alone on PC. SF seems to be the only thing people play on here. I can never get a match on KOF, Injustice has like 4 people max during peak hours.
You know what all those PC fighting games have in common?

None of them were released anywhere close to their actual release dates. If Valve made a fighting game it would probably be released on PC FIRST then maybe on consoles (or simultaneously which is the best option).

Fighting games on the PC are on the rise with games like SF4, Divekick and Skullgirls (yes it does do decent on the PC) same for other genres like the action games. You just need someone to not make a late port on it and market it accordingly.

People in a FG thread saying any Halo game passed CE was any good boggles me.
Why is it so mind boggling? Halo 2 and Halo 3 are genuinely good console shooter games. Halo 2 did lack a bit in the campaign but it more than make up for it with its multiplayer (featuring a really advance MM system at the time). Halo 3 was great in both the campaign and the multiplayer while also featuring new shit like the Forge mode. Halo 1/2 were my most played Xbox 1 games and Halo 3 was my top 5 most played Xbox 360 game.
 

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
Would be cool but I doubt it ever happens. Fighting games aren't big enough, let alone on PC. SF seems to be the only thing people play on here. I can never get a match on KOF, Injustice has like 4 people max during peak hours.
Yeah if Valve made a FG they'd have to port it to PS4/X1 for it to have any chance of tournament success, which would be something they care for because they care a lot about the communities they build games for.

Valve is pretty much the best candidate when it comes to post-launch support, but I wonder if their employees would stay interested long enough to work on a fighting game though.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Employee interest is irrelevant. The employees will do what Valve tells them to.

If game company employee interest mattered then Itsuno would be making a god damn Devil May Cry 5 by now.
 
This is why I used LoL as an example. Riot came out of nowhere and did it themselves. It's the counter-example to the notion that you need a juggernaut. I have never framed any of my arguments with the assumption that you need a megapublisher behind it to get it off of the ground. You need a good product, which is why people gravitated to the likes of LoL and Minecraft which are amongst the biggest games today standing next to the megapublishers and giving them the finger.

This is why I'm confused where the Bungie thing came from, the arguments didn't stem from needing some 700 man team or anything, even though we all know budget matters, especially when it comes to marketing.
Riot Games:
In 2008, Riot Games obtained initial funding of US $7 million provided by venture capital firms Benchmark Capital and FirstMark Capital. In a second round of funding in 2009, the company raised $8 million from Benchmark, FirstMark, and Chinese technology giant Tencent Holdings. In early 2011, Tencent Holdings bought out a majority stake in Riot Games. Bloomberg Businessweek and VentureBeat estimated the transaction to be roughly $350 to $400 million. Tencent later reported the deal was for $231,465,000.
I think I remember Mike getting pissed off when Riot was brought up in FG discussions because it's a matter of capital. SG's development cost was pegged at 2 million or so. With a cost of 275-300k per character 7 million probably would have given them enough time and money to make an 20 character roster with everything SGPC currently has and a day 1 PC version to boot. It's better funding than anything most megapublishers can offer for such an original (and bad depending on your view) project. The crazy part is that Riot still got an additional 8 million the year the game came out. I was really surprised when I checked the wiki, but it makes sense that a beast like LoL can be grown out of funding like that. It's not as easy as it looks.

I also don't even see the point of bringing up Minecraft. This is the most nonsensical thing to ever be be brought up. Wasn't there a thread announcing that they crossed the 60 million sale mark? Brawl is somewhere at 11 million, right? There has to be something just a bit more reasonable to bring up here. You aren't gonna get 40+ million kids to pick up any sort of street fighter or smash variant until the population numbers go up a couple billion more heh.
 

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
Employee interest is irrelevant. The employees will do what Valve tells them to.

If game company employee interest mattered then Itsuno would be making a god damn Devil May Cry 5 by now.
Employees in Valve work on what they want to work on.. not what Valve tells them to. A few employees are assigned to existing projects, but creating new games? Employees work on what they want.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Employees in Valve work on what they want to work on.. not what Valve tells them to. A few employees are assigned to existing projects, but creating new games? Employees work on what they want.
This is the first time I am hearing of this. So some random employee from Valve can just start making a fighting game out of his own volition?
 
Are you a front page editor for SRK? I know you didn't ask me, but EH just seems to post a lot more of the FGC's happenings and provides a lot more content of their own. I know a lot of it is openly dismissed as trivial pap for those desperate to play some acceptance card, but it is what it is. Most times, if there's some tech video from someone in the community, or a FT__ between to players - I find it on EH before finding it on SRK if it's there at all (and I often check just to see what the parity is like). But maybe that's changed as of late and I haven't been paying enough attention. Looking between the two today, it seems both have their own variety of content.

I sympathize with a lot of the common criticisms of EH, but visiting the front page of SRK is more habitual since I've been around that site for so long more than anything. But I always check EH first.

Yes, I'm the editor-in-chief. Sorry for taking so long to get back to you, I was spending the last few hours watching the Seahawks trounce the Broncos.

I'm going to need examples of "FGC happenings" that we miss out on, because at the moment it sounds like you want us to write about things like Chris G moving. We cover team changes very closely (even though we've gotten a ton of shit for it in the past), keep our readers updated on upcoming events as soon as the info is provided to us, cover pertinent community topics (like Super Arcade's upcoming renovation project), and much, much more.

As far as original content, we regularly push out reviews, interviews, and other stuff of that nature, and they're typically more in-depth than what you'll find elsewhere thanks to passionate writers like Franz (d3v), Patrick, and others.

But your original statement said our front page is "sparse and often late in comparison," so that's what I'd like an explanation for. I personally post most every article that gets put on the front page, so I can say for a fact our website is far from sparse on content, created by others or otherwise. And, as I look now, we've had a ton of important news topics up much earlier than other sites, sometimes by hours or more, so neither of your points really stick upon further inspection. That's what I wanted an explanation for.

By all means though, feel free to contact me privately to fill me in on what kind of content we're missing and/or you'd like to see featured on our site if you're still interested in reading. I'm always open to expanding our coverage (much like we've done recently with the latest Full Boost news after being contacted by Shingin from Level|Up about it), so I hope to hear back from you.
 
People in a FG thread saying any Halo game passed CE was any good boggles me.
Halo 2 multiplayer was the greatest thing to happen to console shooters.
You know what all those PC fighting games have in common?

None of them were released anywhere close to their actual release dates. If Valve made a fighting game it would probably be released on PC FIRST then maybe on consoles (or simultaneously which is the best option).

Fighting games on the PC are on the rise with games like SF4, Divekick and Skullgirls (yes it does do decent on the PC) same for other genres like the action games. You just need someone to not make a late port on it and market it accordingly.
Yep

The exact sort of thing that companies like Riot can tackle with the right funding. SG with 7 million and a day 1 PC port would have made KOF and MK9 look like small potatoes, but they need dat greenback.
Employees in Valve work on what they want to work on.. not what Valve tells them to. A few employees are assigned to existing projects, but creating new games? Employees work on what they want.
.
This is the first time I am hearing of this. So some random employee from Valve can just start making a fighting game out of his own volition?
If they have a good idea that gains support from other employees? Yes, you should probably read up on their company structure. Those guys are nuts.
 

Dahbomb

Member
If they have a good idea that gains support from other employees? Yes, you should probably read up on their company structure. Those guys are nuts.
Damn... no wonder they are like the polar opposite of Capcom.

But then... where the FUCK is Half Life 3?
 

kirblar

Member
This is the first time I am hearing of this. So some random employee from Valve can just start making a fighting game out of his own volition?
You basically need to convince enough people to do it. It doesn't seem like a great environment for those bad at Survivor, but it definitely has advantages in that it keeps the quality control really high and reasonably in touch with the market.

This is also why their CS department is notoriously problematic. An unregimented structure doesn't lend itself to that area of business.
 

Kalamari

Member
Bungie got tired of Halo when they started making ODST and it showed. Reach, their most recent game, is still one of the most integrated console games, and so many games have jacked it's UI.

Destiny, from the looks of things, looks REALLY ambitious, I don't see how you could say they're mailing it in there.. it's pretty much pushing the next big innovation in matchmaking. I think something like one of the planets in Destiny is bigger then all the environments in all of the Halos combined or something ridiculous like that.

Ya, it may be innovative and ambitious, but it doesn't feel like it's exciting enough, for me at least. It just feels pretty safe in terms of creativity, like they have borrowed elements from other genres and put them into their own, rather than come up with something entirely new.

I would love to be proven completely wrong about this however, but at the moment I just feel very "meh" about the MMO elements and what I have seen and heard about the game. I will gladly eat my hat if the beta absolutely blows my mind.

I don't want a game that forces me to grind, I just want a game that is fun because it's core gameplay is fun.
 
Damn... no wonder they are like the polar opposite of Capcom.

But then... where the FUCK is Half Life 3?
That's the problem lol. They're like sand now. They may be flexible, but it means that unfocused and somewhat profitable projects fall apart easily. You gotta convince truly professional people that the previously tread ground is worth their time and energy. That is hard to do.
 

vulva

Member
I'm sure they still need approval from management to carry on the production of a title beyond a prototype stage though. Which, in that case, isn't dissimilar to tons of video game development studios. You're either making an original title and shopping it out to a publisher or having a publisher shop around ideas to development studios and pick who to go with based on a prototype. When the development studio is also the acting publisher approval would obviously come entirely internally like in the case of Valve, but you still need to have some sort of approval to continue spending company resources on a project.
 

Kumubou

Member
I still don't get it... if people at Valve can make a game whenever then where's Half Life 3?
I think they've had people there working on Half-Life 3 for... shit, possibly the last decade. They're notorious for iterating over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over until they get something they're happy with, and given how well they've done they really do have all the time in the world.

As for someone just working on a game on their own there... that's how DotA 2 started.
 

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
Riot Games:

I think I remember Mike getting pissed off when Riot was brought up in FG discussions because it's a matter of capital. SG's development cost was pegged at 2 million or so. With a cost of 275-300k per character 7 million probably would have given them enough time and money to make an 20 character roster with everything SGPC currently has and a day 1 PC version to boot. It's better funding than anything most megapublishers can offer for such an original (and bad depending on your view) project. The crazy part is that Riot still got an additional 8 million the year the game came out. I was really surprised when I checked the wiki, but it makes sense that a beast like LoL can be grown out of funding like that. It's not as easy as it looks.

I also don't even see the point of bringing up Minecraft. This is the most nonsensical thing to ever be be brought up. Wasn't there a thread announcing that they crossed the 60 million sale mark? Brawl is somewhere at 11 million, right? There has to be something just a bit more reasonable to bring up here. You aren't gonna get 40+ million kids to pick up any sort of street fighter or smash variant until the population numbers go up a couple billion more heh.
Interesting, I had no idea any of this funding predated a beta. Seems sort of fishy though, I think I need to look into how they procured this in the first place. $7 million in a genre like that at the time and seemingly early in development is just odd. Shit, what's to say that couldn't happen for fighting games either?

The Minecraft example is just to put to rest the idea that something can't be successful without that major backing. I just find the entirely 100% dismissive of the idea of a success coming out of the genre from Q and you really weird considering we can all identify the problems in the genre and they're all amendable without throwing shade at average consumers.

This is the first time I am hearing of this. So some random employee from Valve can just start making a fighting game out of his own volition?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-24205497

Employees are free to leave, rejoin, start etc. projects so long as they are being productive. I'm sure you've figured out why HL3 EP3 isn't out by now.
 

kirblar

Member
It's funny how Valve had the DLC structure sort of there with the episodes...but before the technology was really in place to make it work.
 

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
It's funny how Valve had the DLC structure sort of there with the episodes...but before the technology was really in place to make it work.
Several Xbox games had DLC out before the core Half Life 2 game was even out. The greatest video game ever, PGR2, was one of them.

There's probably a PC example dating back even earlier though.
 
Interesting, I had no idea any of this funding predated a beta. Seems sort of fishy though, I think I need to look into how they procured this in the first place. $7 million in a genre like that at the time and seemingly early in development is just odd. Shit, what's to say that couldn't happen for fighting games either?

The Minecraft example is just to put to rest the idea that something can't be successful without that major backing. I just find the entirely 100% dismissive of the idea of a success coming out of the genre from Q and you really weird considering we can all identify the problems in the genre and they're all amendable without throwing shade at average consumers.
Oh, of course. I'm the biggest defender of the idea that stuff without major backing can make a splash. If I weren't that kind of guy I would have dumped SG a long time ago lol. The point is that fighting games DO require some significant investment if you want something to rival the current guard. Me personally? I'll settle for SG, but I'd at least like to see Mike and them making money when the game sells instead of having to rely on DLC and merchandise sales from Sanshee or 86'd (awesome dudes, bit it's not enough).

Fighting games are srs business. I wish there were a way to cut costs in half without impacting quality or content. It would be the start of a renaissance age. :/
 
I'm sure they still need approval from management to carry on the production of a title beyond a prototype stage though. Which, in that case, isn't dissimilar to tons of video game development studios. You're either making an original title and shopping it out to a publisher or having a publisher shop around ideas to development studios and pick who to go with based on a prototype. When the development studio is also the acting publisher approval would obviously come entirely internally like in the case of Valve, but you still need to have some sort of approval to continue spending company resources on a project.

IIRC there is literally no traditional management structure at Valve; instead you'd need some level of group consensus.
 

Warpticon

Member
When did humans toss out energy projectiles from their hands? LOL!


You mean like this guy?


So, uh, what's with the bulge
 
Damn... no wonder they are like the polar opposite of Capcom.

But then... where the FUCK is Half Life 3?

there is no vertical progression in valve. It's all horizontal, people are on the same tier as other workers and can work on w/e. I think big named projects probably need certification from gaben and others before they can move forward.

Here is a pdf of the valve employee handbook:

edit: here is a better link http://www.valvesoftware.com/company/Valve_Handbook_LowRes.pdf
 

vulva

Member
IIRC there is literally no traditional management structure at Valve; instead you'd need some level of group consensus.

Yeah I was just reading up on that. It's still the same concept though. Just instead of it being decided by a small group within the company, there's a larger scope with the same process.

It needs to be decided who would work on it, what level of success would the project have for the company, is it worth the resources. Instead of being dictated from a management perspective, it's just whether or not an employee has the support of their peers in an idea. Still means that if a project doesn't look conducive to a successful product, it won't continue beyond a prototype stage though.
 

kirblar

Member
Several Xbox games had DLC out before the core Half Life 2 game was even out. The greatest video game ever, PGR2, was one of them.

There's probably a PC example dating back even earlier though.
Yeah, but not for content that large. (at least not on a widespread basis) You had Episode 1/2 on shelves on DVD at Best Buy and such.
 
I fear a new fg IP can't pop successfully (tourny or casual scene) in the current climate (at very least sc5 sales or something), in the us at least. I think alot of what fuels this genre is nostalgia and unreasonable old man yelling at cloud syndrome sometimes. We all love our old favorites and the old ways. That's why sf3 got shat on partly. I hope Im wrong of course.

Maybe alot of people nowadays don't find entertainment in the gratification from how fightings games are structured ( 1 one 1 basically). People want to play team games. The range for moral victories and levels of validated success in a team structure are of course higher. 1v1 Arena shooters are niche now as well. It would be cool to see demographic numbers of who buys fighting games and see how many new people ( I guess teens) are actually jumping in or if it's people with established fandom with fighting games.

Also, i don't think its a guarantee that if SG or kof had a sf4/tekken budget, they would be as big. A lot of games with big budgets don't hit their mark.

I'm part of that old man syndrome as well though, in regards to not wanting to play team games. I don't want to play partner sfxtekken, i don't want to play team based fps. I think I will always want to play 1v1 fighters and shooters.
 

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
Yeah, but not for content that large. (at least not on a widespread basis) You had Episode 1/2 on shelves on DVD at Best Buy and such.
Perhaps. They were pushing pretty significant amounts of content though, PGR2 had entire cities to download and tons of cars to boot. I'm not sure but I think they extended the in-game showroom to access the DLC cars too.
 
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