Support NeoGAF

[ape2man]

Developers are always free to band together and tell Apple to piss off and treat us better to. Hold apps off the store like windows phone. With out revenue of a store your discouraging hardware in certain markets and creating new markets in the future. I don't want a 1500 consoles because Sony no longer makes money from the store. If epic wins here that is next for them and others. Valve would have nothing to lose taking Sony to court to get their store on the PlayStation.

So why not force every game store out of windows on windows 12?

because a pc is a General purpose device, but i think ipad, iphone have slowly also become that.

 

[reksveks]

I agree that Apple shouldn't be allowed to undercut competing services for the end user on their device.

IMO in the long term either Apple O&O services get kicked out of the company or it's going to be a slight opening up of the OS, i think that's going to happen but it might come from the EU instead of the US.

 

[Banjo64]

Does seem like the only probable outcome here is that Apple win, but this is the US, so hold on to your cowboy hats.

 

[Thirty7ven]

It is an extra 15-30% compared to the subscriptions they sell and to their mandate not allowing devs to use alternative payment methods (which is BS as plenty of examples show).

The IAP cut is one of the many issues where Apple is holding their customers as a valuable resource and making the lives of apps more unpredictable and difficult (the case of a developer’s business model being ruined and looking very I’m predictable and risky due to how Apple makes and interpret vague rules up on the spot is not something you see on the console stores). That has a factor in things as well when you see them from the devs’ point of view and the impact of this on consumers.

This isn't making sense in my head, since by default Apple can't apply a 30% cut on themselves. What they can and should be enforced to do, is price match the competition and be legally deterred from undercutting competing services on their platform.

It's also up to the platform holder to negotiate better terms for developers/services that they wish to bring to the platform. That's just business. We are holding these companies to a standard we don't apply to our own governments. Not leaving iOS for another option is a choice, nobody is being held hostage. That you lose time in the process isn't something that has any type of legal value.

 

[hlm666]

Imagine thinking that's not normal.
Imagine world where you are not allowed to use phone not created by your service provider, or world where you can fix your car only in authorized service and buy fuel on authorized gas station.

Imagine buying the car knowing these before you buy it, when you can buy another brand (android in this case). I don't have any apple products because you know all these things up front. I also take it you don't know about service providers already locking phones to their network? it's a shit analogy by the why. Imagine thinking it's normal that if some entity has something you want to use for free it's fine to go to court because you don't want to pay for it. It's probably normal thinking for someone in bed with tencent I guess.

 

[hlm666]

Who said they were fine. They simply weren't big enough to have any chance in court against Apple.

They seemed pretty fine, i'd almost say happy no?

"Los Angeles/Portland — In 2011, when Apple CEO Tim Cook wanted to show off the first major product under his leadership — the iPhone 4S — the company invited Epic Games onto the stage. Mike Capps, Epic Games’s president at the time, made a quick joke about how much money his company’s games made from Apple devices. Then he helped run a demo of Infinity Blade II, designed to showcase both Epic’s new game and the power of the latest iPhone’s chip.."

Fun and games over as Apple’s relationship with Epic sours

A federal court will hear Epic’s claims that Apple extracts money from developers by abusing its market power

www.businesslive.co.za

 

[Bojanglez]

Imagine buying the car knowing these before you buy it, when you can buy another brand (android in this case). I don't have any apple products because you know all these things up front. I also take it you don't know about service providers already locking phones to their network? it's a shit analogy by the why. Imagine thinking it's normal that if some entity has something you want to use for free it's fine to go to court because you don't want to pay for it. It's probably normal thinking for someone in bed with tencent I guess.

Epic have actually been using 'gas stations' as an analogy in the case. Buying a car (phone) and then having to fill up with fuel (apps) and when presented with options to pay, only allowing one (Apple's IAP).

Their argument about choice between phones is probably that once you are in the iOS 'ecosystem' it is hard to leave and Apple have designed it to be that way. So you could in theory have bought into the iOS ecosystem before in-app payments were a thing and thus you haven't really got a choice at the point you start getting asked for money. Not sure if that holds water, but that what they are trying to argue.

 

[hlm666]

Epic have actually been using 'gas stations' as an analogy in the case. Buying a car (phone) and then having to fill up with fuel (apps) and when presented with options to pay, only allowing one (Apple's IAP).

Their argument about choice between phones is probably that once you are in the iOS 'ecosystem' it is hard to leave and Apple have designed it to be that way. So you could in theory have bought into the iOS ecosystem before in-app payments were a thing and thus you haven't really got a choice at the point you start getting asked for money. Not sure if that holds water, but that what they are trying to argue.

Surely apples lawyers responded to that with something along the lines of it makes no sense because the phone doesn't actually use apps to work, that would be the plan from your mobile carrier? That would be the actual "fuel", and if you don't buy the phone from a carrier with some lock in contract you can use whatever carrier you want. With arguments like that being used in the actual case epic is gonna need some divine intervention.

 

[AJUMP23]

I heard Tim had to identify a ps5 in court. He was able to do it.

 

[Same ol G]

sacrilege

All hail the plastic boxes.

 

[kuncol02]

I also take it you don't know about service providers already locking phones to their network? it's a shit analogy by the why.

It's not about locking phones to network but locking network to company approved and sold phones only. It's really good analogy and that already happened with AT&T.

Imagine thinking it's normal that if some entity has something you want to use for free it's fine to go to court because you don't want to pay for it.

Imagine that in civilized world (outside of US) you can chose any internet or telephone provider (or even electricity company) and all of them provide services on each other infrastructure (they are forced by law) and that's normal thing for everyone. Because of that my parents in their small town pay equivalent of $20 for 400Mb/s internet with unlimited transfer. In big cities you can have twice as fast for around $15 (still unlimited transfer).
I'm actually surprised that anyone can be so deep in any corporation ass to defend them in keeping that kind of monopoly.

They seemed pretty fine, i'd almost say happy no?

They also offered Sony deal that they will "publicly make them look as heroes" if they will allow cross play in Fortnite.

 

[Reality Czar]

I'm anti-Apple in this case. They have been closed system bullies for decades. Back when PC gaming was just getting started they were pulling this shit. It was impossible to get anything on Mac. This is by design.

I am all in favor of anything that promotes more competition. Vertical monopolies are bullshit.

 

[hlm666]

Imagine that in civilized world (outside of US) you can chose any internet or telephone provider (or even electricity company) and all of them provide services on each other infrastructure (they are forced by law) and that's normal thing for everyone. Because of that my parents in their small town pay equivalent of $20 for 400Mb/s internet with unlimited transfer. In big cities you can have twice as fast for around $15 (still unlimited transfer).
I'm actually surprised that anyone can be so deep in any corporation ass to defend them in keeping that kind of monopoly.

Imagine thinking because I don't agree with you i'm an American with my head up corporation asses. I don't even know how this relates to apple, hell where I live we have different companies all using the same infrastructure (forced by law) to provide internet services and it's not the fucking utopia your promising.

They also offered Sony deal that they will "publicly make them look as heroes" if they will allow cross play in Fortnite.

I'm not exactly sure what point your making with this, the link and quote I provided showed you Epic was licking apples balls back in 2011 so if they are on their knees for sony now all i've got to say is, sony better hope epic don't win then, they'll come after their 30% cut next.

 

[Bojanglez]

Surely apples lawyers responded to that with something along the lines of it makes no sense because the phone doesn't actually use apps to work, that would be the plan from your mobile carrier? That would be the actual "fuel", and if you don't buy the phone from a carrier with some lock in contract you can use whatever carrier you want. With arguments like that being used in the actual case epic is gonna need some divine intervention.

I think you are thinking of it a little too literally. The 'phone' (might not be a phone could be any iOS device and may not need a cell service) is a productivity device and therefore to be productive you need apps, these may require in app payments and the only option for customers and developers is to use Apple's IAP.

I"m not saying I necessarily agree with it as an analogy, I think the principle of lack of choice is quite self explanatory without an analogy.

 

[ape2man]

Because windows doesn't have competition in the PC space. They represent over 70% of the market, and that my friend... is a monopoly. Victims of their own success. If IOS represented over 70% of the mobile space, it would be the same.

"85% of smartphones globally run on Android." - https://www.idc.com/promo/smartphone-market-share/os

Spoiler

if Epic succeeds, this will affect consoles. Because they will have redefined the rules. Consoles don't just run games, they are multimedia machines.

US != WORLD

 

[Dabaus]

From what im seeing it looks like Epic/Tim Sweeney is burning all bridges with all partners from document leaks because Apple wants a 30 percent share of revenue which is an industry standard, correct?

 

[hlm666]

I think you are thinking of it a little too literally. The 'phone' (might not be a phone could be any iOS device and may not need a cell service) is a productivity device and therefore to be productive you need apps, these may require in app payments and the only option for customers and developers is to use Apple's IAP.

I"m not saying I necessarily agree with it as an analogy, I think the principle of lack of choice is quite self explanatory without an analogy.

Fair point, I wasn't really considering ipads and macs. You could replace phone carrier with isp and muddy the analogy alot still though. Gonna be some interesting times if they win like you said though.

 

[Entroyp]

Oooh I see.. go after Apple (lowest source of income) to set a precedent that applies to all of your other partners.

 

[dem]

Good point, Tim. Good point.

 

[Bojanglez]

Oooh I see.. go after Apple (lowest source of income) to set a precedent that applies to all of your other partners.

Yeah they were making this point in the trial, because Epic said that Apple's practices significantly effected their revenue, and Apple's lawyers were basically saying iOS was supplemental revenue (about 1/6 of PlayStation) so how would 30% of that be significant compared to 30% of any of the other platforms.

I believe Epic's argument is actually wider than that through, and are trying to argue about the type of platform iOS is (i.e. a productivity platform that many are dependent on) and therefore should be held to a different standard as they effectively have people 'trapped' in their ecosystem.

 

[dem]

Dear Yves,

I'm writing to apologize for the shortcomings in our Epic Games store implementation and our Uplay integration.

In the past 48 hours, the rate of fraudulent transactions on Division 2 surpassed 70% and was approaching 90%. Sophisticated hackers were creating Epic accounts, buying Ubisoft games with stolen credit cards, and then selling the linked Uplay accounts faster than we were disabling linked Uplay purchases for fraud.

Fraud rates for other Epic games store titles are under 2% and Fortnite is under 1%. So 70% fraud was an extraordinary situation.

To stop the fraud, we disabled purchasing of Ubisoft games. We will make our best efforts to restore service as quickly as we can. This depends on (1) a real-time system for disabling refunded and fraudulent purchases on Uplay, and (2) anti-fraud improvements in Epic's service. This work will likely take at least 2 weeks to complete.

The fault in this situation is entirely Epic's, and all of the minimum revenue guarantees remain in place to ensure our performance.

I'm sorry for the trouble,

Tim Sweeney

Epic Games

 

[Fbh]

I heard Tim had to identify a ps5 in court. He was able to do it.

But was it just standing there alone or did they place some routers around it to make it hard?

 

[Demigod Mac]

Really starting to look like Apple's lawyers did their homework, and that they've set up a trap for Epic to clumsily walk into.

 

[AJUMP23]

But was it just standing there alone or did they place some routers around it to make it hard?

It was next to a switch and a Xbox.

 

[dem]

Really starting to look like Apple's lawyers did their homework, and that they've set up a trap for Epic to clumsily walk into.

The whole case is weak. Waste of everyone's time.

Apple has been mindfully preparing for this since Steve Jobs was alive. People don't talk off the cuff at Apple. Tim Cook doesn't make mistakes.
Come at the king.. you best not miss.

 

[IntentionalPun]

Really starting to look like Apple's lawyers did their homework, and that they've set up a trap for Epic to clumsily walk into.

The Epic case has been quite a joke from the start; if you read material Tim Sweeney has written in the past.. then read some of the legal filings...

You can tell Sweeney, who is not, in any way, a lawyer, wrote a bunch of it.

This is going to be a complete slam dunk for Apple.

I get that people think Epic has a point; but having a point is not how laws work.

 

[Spukc]

if you are defending apple ur a fucking sap
their walk garden is absolute sheit and need to be tackled

steam is the same BS

 

[IntentionalPun]

The IAP mandate, which is not even consistently applied (see Amazon Prime having a special deal, look at all apps where you can purchase things without IAP’s too), is another mechanism where they give themselves a 15-30% advantage in profit margins: they could allow developers like Epic and many others to just use the very secure Apple Pay mechanism to pay for content inside the app… but nope… you must use IAP for subscriptions and consumables and only that and give Apple an extra cut (which is a cost that Apple Music does not have to incur).

What deal do you think Amazon has?

The IAP mandate doesn't apply to physical purchases, never has.. any physical store that ships items can have an App w/o getting charged.

 

[LordCBH]

if you are defending apple ur a fucking sap
their walk garden is absolute sheit and need to be tackled

steam is the same BS

You can buy a competitors device and not be locked into a walled garden. If you don’t want a walled garden, don’t buy into a device and service that straight up advertises itself as one.

 

[Panajev2001a]

What deal do you think Amazon has?

The IAP mandate doesn't apply to physical purchases, never has.. any physical store that ships items can have an App w/o getting charged.

Those are arbitrary rules.

Amazon Prime allows you to use an alternative form of payment to subscribe to the service from the iOS app because… reasons…

 

[dem]

if you are defending apple ur a fucking sap
their walk garden is absolute sheit and need to be tackled

steam is the same BS

So you want to take away the consumers choice?
Because people are clearly choosing to be in a walled garden.

The barrier of entry to the "freeedommmm!" of Android is far lower than Apple.

This whole case is preposterous..

 

[Spukc]

So you want to take away the consumers choice?
Because people are clearly choosing to be in a walled garden.

The barrier of entry to the "freeedommmm!" of Android is far lower than Apple.

This whole case is preposterous..

that is the absolute dumbest take i have seen so far

imagine being on windows 10 or MAC OS and apple / MS suddenly stating ok guys.. everything only on our appstore
that's bs

 

[DJTaurus]

What a REAL GENTLEMAN Phil Spencer is. In addition to Sony tactics and the way it handled/forced paycut for cross play.

 

[Spukc]

give this a watch

 

[dem]

that is the absolute dumbest take i have seen so far

imagine being on windows 10 or MAC OS and apple / MS suddenly stating ok guys.. everything only on our appstore
that's bs

Its almost like Windows RT and Windows 10 S exist.

 

[IntentionalPun]

Those are arbitrary rules.

Amazon Prime allows you to use an alternative form of payment to subscribe to the service from the iOS app because… reasons…

No you can't subscribe to Prime through the iOS app.

Yes you can buy physical products; that's not arbitrary.. it's a clear distinction, and Amazon didn't get any favorable treatment or any sort of exception to rules.

 

[theHFIC]

if you are defending apple ur a fucking sap
their walk garden is absolute sheit and need to be tackled

steam is the same BS

Sap here who is happy with the walled garden on my iOS based devices. They are phones and tablets not computers. Apple goes out of the way to make these devices as stupid friendly as possible by hiding things like filesystems, task managers, etc and I appreciate them for that. I don't want to worry about some 3rd party bullshit stinking its way into my phone because some company wanted to sell their virtual currency cheaper.

It isn't a perfect system as bad-actor apps still make its way into the store, but when you hold it to the other mobile platforms out there, the difference is night and day.

This line is going to be blurring soon though with the inclusion of desktop class M-series chips going into iPads and most likely a hybrid OS to follow for them but instead of worrying for the future I will worry about that and Apple's position when it actually happens.

 

[ChuckeRearmed]

What a REAL GENTLEMAN Phil Spencer is. In addition to Sony tactics and the way it handled/forced paycut for cross play.

Incredible thing is it that it seems they way he behaves in real life is the same as he writes the email. Nice guy Phil!

 

[JSoup]

But are we taking days, weeks, month?

This really hinges on how much each side feels needs to be said. I'd anticipate at least two weeks. The courts seem to be less willing to drag things out in these covid times.

 

[LordCBH]

that is the absolute dumbest take i have seen so far

imagine being on windows 10 or MAC OS and apple / MS suddenly stating ok guys.. everything only on our appstore
that's bs

Yes. That would be bs. Because there’s no history of that on Windows and mac. There’s no history of an open platform on iOS. (Microsoft actually did try this with Windows RT but absolutely no one remembers it for good reason.)

 

[Panajev2001a]

No you can't subscribe to Prime through the iOS app.

Yes you can buy physical products; that's not arbitrary.. it's a clear distinction, and Amazon didn't get any favorable treatment or any sort of exception to rules.

Amazon Prime Video now lets users buy TV shows and movies in the app, seemingly struck special deal with Apple - 9to5Mac

Update: In a statement, Apple told 9to5Mac that it has an “established program for premium subscription video entertainment providers” and...

9to5mac.com

 

[Danteyke223]

Anybody noticed how Jason Schrier the paragon of Jouranlism. Has not made one comment or even a hint of, he's going to investigate this further. Meanwhile Tom Warren is actually handling the subject matter pretty great.

 

[LordCBH]

Anybody noticed how Jason Schrier the paragon of Jouranlism. Has not made one comment or even a hint of, he's going to investigate this further. Meanwhile Tom Warren is actually handling the subject matter pretty great.

There’s a decent chance schreiers take would end up being wrong so he’s not going to touch it with a 50 foot pole. His ego can’t handle that.

 

[NickFire]

I can't believe the treasure trove of documents coming from this case. Juicy stuff.

As for the case itself, I'm just as surprised that this made it to trial. As my understanding is that Epic is trying to kick down doors into Apple's walled garden, I figured before a trial ever started Epic, Valve, Steam, MS, Sony, and Apple would work something out behind the scenes. Actually, I kind of expected those claims to get dismissed on summary judgment. I'm not a fan of Apple's iron grip on what apps are allowed on Iphone (etc.)., but I am a fan of the console industry in general. And it would seem the entire thing starts to look like a house of cards for console manufacturers if Epic wins. It would also wipe out a well ingrained industry practice, which is why I assumed the judge would toss any claims based on Apple's market control unless there was a new law that seemed to require it.

Also, I know its Epic vs. Apple, but I figured the other companies would broker a deal between them due to their relationships with Epic and their own self interests. Come to think of it though, I wonder if all the big players take the same side. MS for instance, might benefit well if Sony had to open up their market.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Incredible thing is it that it seems they way he behaves in real life is the same as he writes the email. Nice guy Phil!

And what Phil said asking Tim for a fair price is logical and happens all the time. The buyers at Walmart, Best Buy and EB want a fair price so they dont get hosed and have to sell stuff for an uncompetitive price.

Sony on the other hand wants to enforce cross play policies like mandating third party studios hand over their books so they can "audit" their financials and force that ratio top up subsidy on every studio that wants to do cross play.

 

[ethomaz]

Today are being a weird day on news

Apple vs Epic
Brazilian's COVID-19 CPI

And in few minutes Champions League.

 

[reksveks]

No you can't subscribe to Prime through the iOS app.

Yes you can buy physical products; that's not arbitrary.. it's a clear distinction, and Amazon didn't get any favorable treatment or any sort of exception to rules.

There was definitely a point where Amazon was getting preferential treatment in terms of rates on digital products (prime video) over other competition. This was in exchange for Amazon basically creating a special type of page on Amazon. Apple then expanded that program from one to more companies.

The difference between a physical and software product is something that I don't understand (apart from apple just deciding it) and haven't seen a great justification for aka the uber vs tinder services. I don't think this will be decided ultimately here but in Congress.

 

[Bladed Thesis]

Anybody noticed how Jason Schrier the paragon of Jouranlism. Has not made one comment or even a hint of, he's going to investigate this further. Meanwhile Tom Warren is actually handling the subject matter pretty great.

Jason is currently working on how to spin this into "grr crunch bad."

 

[Lord Thunderbear]

Yes. That would be bs. Because there’s no history of that on Windows and mac. There’s no history of an open platform on iOS. (Microsoft actually did try this with Windows RT but absolutely no one remembers it for good reason.)

So hardware houses asking for a cut of software or Microsoft deciding what and how apps work in their OS would be bs, but Apple asking for a cut of software and deciding what and how apps work in their OS is fine...because they did it all the time already?
Oh, please. Either both are acceptable or they aren't, there is no "history" excuse that works here.

 

[Tarin02543]

The greed, it never stops.

so Epic wants Apple to destroy its entire business model so they can make more profit on loot boxes and costumes for the next 50 years.