• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • The Politics forum has been nuked. Please do not bring political discussion to the rest of the site, or you will be removed. Thanks.

Drama Epic Games vs Apple in court face off INCLUDING Tim Sweeney , LIVE !!!

Krizalidx11

Banned
Mar 18, 2021
474
720
345



Epic, the maker of the popular video game “Fortnite,” is facing off against Apple at trial Monday in a case that could change Apple’s business model and the course of U.S. antitrust law. Epic brought the suit after Apple kicked “Fortnite” off the App Store for purposely bypassing Apple’s payment processing system and its 30 percent commission.




Apple said emails uncovered during the discovery process show Epic’s chief executive, Tim Sweeney, was disingenuous. The lawsuit stems from Epic’s decision to offer “Fortnite” gamers an alternative payment method, bypassing Apple’s payment processing service and its 30 percent commission. Sweeney discussed its intentions with Microsoft ahead of time, Apple said. “While Epic is deceiving Apple, it’s giving Microsoft a heads-up.”

Epic Games has paid billions in commissions to third-party companies hosting “Fortnite,” such as Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo and Apple, according to evidence filed this morning.
A Microsoft Excel file, shared as an exhibit, lists commissions paid between January 2017 and October 2020. The vast majority of these payments relate to “Fortnite,” with a smaller percentage accounted for by “Rocket League” and a handful of other Epic properties.
In the tracked time span, Epic Games paid $237,175,521 in commissions to Apple for “Fortnite.” By comparison, in 2020 alone, payments to Microsoft ($245,992,576) and Sony ($451,405,240) exceeded Epic’s total commission payments to Apple.

Epic brought Steve Jobs into this !!!!



Tons of documents including emails from 2009 between Epic executives


LIVE Audio from Court


Live updates from the court
 
Last edited:

reksveks

Member
Jun 4, 2020
5,191
4,891
425
Cheers for the WP link, whilst having fun reading twitter there is a lot going on.
 
Oct 26, 2018
22,535
31,681
885
I dont think I understand Sweeneys argument.

He wants Apple to allow app makers to get people to buy their app on credit card or paypal or whatever right?

If so, then how does Apple get paid for selling it on their store? What cut do they get? 0%?
 
  • Like
Reactions: polybius80

reksveks

Member
Jun 4, 2020
5,191
4,891
425
I dont think I understand Sweeneys argument.

He wants Apple to allow app makers to get people to buy their app on credit card or paypal or whatever right?

If so, then how does Apple get paid for selling it on their store? What cut do they get? 0%?
its a brand new store imo that means that apple won't get anything except for the margin on the device and money from users whom continue to buy within the app store similar to macos
 
Oct 26, 2018
22,535
31,681
885
its a brand new store imo that means that apple won't get anything except for the margin on the device and money from users whom continue to buy within the app store similar to macos
I think it's more about in app purchases.
I remember now. Thanks.

I' not a fan of Apple, but IMO they are right. I'd do the same.

If you buy a game console at Walmart or Best Buy, and then add in some games at the same time, they aren't going to like it if that game in the display case says on the cover "also available on PSN or XB store!"

The retailer will tell you to fuck off. Even though every one knows theres digital copies, they aren't going to like direct combative marketing trying to take money out of their pocket.

It's a give and take that both sides make money selling the product. Fortnite is free too, so Apple doesn't even make money selling the base game for $20 or anything
 
  • Like
Reactions: FloatingIslands

Holammer

Member
Jan 3, 2019
1,785
2,463
440
I have a dislike and grudging respect for Apple, but I'm onboard with them on this.
On the other hand... The potential shit show if Epic wins and EA/Activision start demanding their own payment processing handling for DLC on consoles? There's not enough popcorn in the world.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: docbot

reksveks

Member
Jun 4, 2020
5,191
4,891
425
I remember now. Thanks.

I' not a fan of Apple, but IMO they are right. I'd do the same.

If you buy a game console at Walmart or Best Buy, and then add in some games at the same time, they aren't going to like it if that game in the display case says on the cover "also available on PSN or XB store!"

The retailer will tell you to fuck off. Even though every one knows theres digital copies, they aren't going to like direct combative marketing trying to take money out of their pocket.

It's a give and take that both sides make money selling the product. Fortnite is free too, so Apple doesn't even make money selling the base game for $20 or anything
It does fundamentally come down to whether Apple is so big and aware that user lock-in is a thing (it kinda is based off the imessage emails) that it's able to abuse developers. I don't know if Apple will win this, suspect they will because the court is going to pass the ultimate decision to Congress and Epic might 'win' there in terms of getting some of the solutions it wants implemented.
 
  • Like
Reactions: StreetsofBeige

SlimySnake

Member
Feb 5, 2013
12,683
35,971
1,260
He has no case. I cant believe this wasnt thrown out by the judge.

What's next? Not paying Sony and Microsoft their 30% cut? Not paying Sony and MS royalties for third party games? Why would sony spend billions on making PS5s when anyone can come in and sell their games on the console without giving them a cut? Whats the incentive for Sony?

This is beyond stupid. Fornite made $9 billion in two years. 30% of that is $3 billion. He made $6 billion and is still upset because he had to share that revenue with Sony, MS and Apple. Greedy son of a bitch.
 

Cert.in.Death

Member
Jun 28, 2013
3,784
3,976
750
Utah
This is only the beginning. There is zero chance that either side will accept the outcome at the trial level and both have the world to lose. No matter the outcome, each will appeal as far as possible.
 

harmny

Banned
Oct 29, 2020
1,396
3,582
410
He has no case. I cant believe this wasnt thrown out by the judge.

What's next? Not paying Sony and Microsoft their 30% cut? Not paying Sony and MS royalties for third party games? Why would sony spend billions on making PS5s when anyone can come in and sell their games on the console without giving them a cut? Whats the incentive for Sony?

This is beyond stupid. Fornite made $9 billion in two years. 30% of that is $3 billion. He made $6 billion and is still upset because he had to share that revenue with Sony, MS and Apple. Greedy son of a bitch.

When you get a PC and buy a game from steam, where is the microsoft cut? You are using windows aren't you?
Same thing. Phones are computers. Multipurpose devices.

i really don't get how anyone can side with apple on this. well i do understand why, because for some irrational reason people hate tim sweeney.
 
Last edited:
Oct 26, 2018
22,535
31,681
885
I have a dislike and grudging respect for Apple, but I'm onboard with them on this.
On the other hand... The potential shit show if Epic wins and EA/Activision start demanding their own payment processing handling for DLC on consoles? There's not enough popcorn in the world.
Although I side with Apple in terms of it's their storefront, however opening it up would probably lead to better prices.

Mtx $5.00. Apple gets $1.50. Epic get $3.50

Epic allowed to do their own shit. Epic sells for $4.00 direct.

What does Apple do? Hold at $5? Or chip down the price? Who says Epic has to sell mtx direct for the same price as on the Apple store?
 
Last edited:

Holammer

Member
Jan 3, 2019
1,785
2,463
440
Although I side with Apple in terms of it's their storefront, however opening it up would probably lead to better prices.

Mtx $5.00. Apple gets $1.50. Epic get $3.50

Epic allowed to do their own shit. Epic sells for $4.00 direct.

What does Apple do? Hold at $5? Or chip down the price?
Nobody wants a race to the bottom, so in the end, I don't expect prices to change much at all. Epic however will offer their payment processing and other services to other apps for a modest fee.
That's the end game of this trial.
 

Spacefish

Member
Dec 21, 2020
237
303
230
If you're a consumer or a developer it only really makes sense to support epic. They aren't asking for much more than mobile OS's to be brought in line with desktop OS's. Phones are now essentially mobile computers and apples store policies effect more than just the industry they compete in, sometimes they are in active competition with people who use their ecosystem and have chosen to leverage it. I think Game consoles are distinct since they aren't general computing devices and domination in their field only effects competition within the game industry.
 
Last edited:

reksveks

Member
Jun 4, 2020
5,191
4,891
425
Did you happen to miss the Microsoft antitrust stuff from the 90s and 2000s?
Your PC would absolutely be like an iPhone by now in terms of openess and apps if Microsoft had been allowed to get away with their crap back then.
It's definitely an alternative history that I would love to see but yeah, chrome and android would not be a thing imo if Microsoft won.
 

ethomaz

is mad because DF didn't do a video on a video of a video of a video on PS5
Mar 19, 2013
42,153
44,909
1,310
39
Brazil
Although I side with Apple in terms of it's their storefront, however opening it up would probably lead to better prices.

Mtx $5.00. Apple gets $1.50. Epic get $3.50

Epic allowed to do their own shit. Epic sells for $4.00 direct.

What does Apple do? Hold at $5? Or chip down the price? Who says Epic has to sell mtx direct for the same price as on the Apple store?
Epic can just not accept it and not sell their game on iOS.

Apple has the right to ask a cut to use their ecosystem.
 

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Aug 28, 2019
9,207
16,931
660
Did you happen to miss the Microsoft antitrust stuff from the 90s and 2000s?
Your PC would absolutely be like an iPhone by now in terms of openess and apps if Microsoft had been allowed to get away with their crap back then.
It's definitely an alternative history that I would love to see but yeah, chrome and android would not be a thing imo if Microsoft won.

Huh? They weren't closing down Windows or anything.. that wasn't what the case was about.
 
Last edited:

Spacefish

Member
Dec 21, 2020
237
303
230
I hope apple win this, I can't stand Sweeney and I just feel like epic winning this, could have a negative effect all round.
its the opposite, apple winning sets a precedent that allows major platform holders to erect and hold onto unavoidable walled gardens, this gives windows and MacOS the legal greenlight to continue pushing for total platform control. Epic winning brings mobileOS's in line with desktops and makes it harder for, especially Microsoft to pull their UWP shit they were trying a few years back. Beyond that pushing for less rent seeking profits is beneficial to developers, consumers and the overall competitive health of the tech ecosystem. There is nothing to be gained by apple winning unless your brain is full of internet drama and you don't like Tim Sweeney's tweets.
 
Jan 16, 2020
6,054
22,898
855
Did you happen to miss the Microsoft antitrust stuff from the 90s and 2000s?
Your PC would absolutely be like an iPhone by now in terms of openess and apps if Microsoft had been allowed to get away with their crap back then.

That lawsuit had nothing to do with whether they could be an open platform or not
 
Last edited:

NinjaBoiX

Member
Aug 2, 2009
26,390
1,051
1,345
Manchester, UK
This is simply a cut and dry case of Apple being in the right and Epic being in the wrong, in this particular situation. It’s literally not even open to interpretation, they fundamentally broke the rules.

It’s like joining in a game with a load of people already playing, then demanding they change the rules after the fact because you don’t like them. You can’t start playing properly so they let you play, then throw a tantrum and cry that it’s not fair.

Start your own game with your own set of rules if you don’t like how the current game is being played.

It’s as simple as that.
 

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Aug 28, 2019
9,207
16,931
660
its the opposite, apple winning sets a precedent that allows major platform holders to erect and hold onto unavoidable walled gardens, this gives windows and MacOS the legal greenlight to continue pushing for total platform control. Epic winning brings mobileOS's in line with desktops and makes it harder for, especially Microsoft to pull their UWP shit they were trying a few years back. Beyond that pushing for less rent seeking profits is beneficial to developers, consumers and the overall competitive health of the tech ecosystem. There is nothing to be gained by apple winning unless your brain is full of internet drama and you don't like Tim Sweeney's tweets.

They've always had that legal greenlight... Epic at most will win small victories surrounding some of Apple's behavior, but there is no chance that they'll force iOS to be open. There is no law even close to suggesting that is how selling products works, and that kind of law isn't going to magically appear out of a civil case like this.
 

harmny

Banned
Oct 29, 2020
1,396
3,582
410
This is simply a cut and dry case of Apple being in the right and Epic being in the wrong, in this particular situation. It’s literally not even open to interpretation, they fundamentally broke the rules.

It’s like joining in a game with a load of people already playing, then demanding they change the rules after the fact because you don’t like them. You can’t start playing properly so they let you play, then throw a tantrum and cry that it’s not fair.

Start your own game with your own set of rules if you don’t like how the current game is being played.

It’s as simple as that.

they did it on purpose
 

Pagusas

Elden Member
Jun 9, 2006
13,560
5,819
1,870
Prosper, Tx
This is simply a cut and dry case of Apple being in the right and Epic being in the wrong, in this particular situation. It’s literally not even open to interpretation, they fundamentally broke the rules.

It’s like joining in a game with a load of people already playing, then demanding they change the rules after the fact because you don’t like them. You can’t start playing properly so they let you play, then throw a tantrum and cry that it’s not fair.

Start your own game with your own set of rules if you don’t like how the current game is being played.

It’s as simple as that.

While on the surface i complete agree, I Feel like we must be missing something for this case to not have been thrown out right away. Why was it allowed to go to trial?
 

WelshBluebird

Member
Jul 25, 2007
372
477
1,315
31
Wales, UK
Huh? They weren't closing down Windows or anything.. that wasn't what the case was about.

That lawsuit had nothing to do with whether they could be an open platform or not

Can you both really not see the similarities?
It's about control.
Microsoft were denied the control to do whatever they wanted with their OS. Epic are currently challenging for the same judgement to be made against Apple because at the moment Apple can do anything they want with the OS.
 

salamanderjuice

Neo Member
Apr 15, 2021
39
48
115
This is simply a cut and dry case of Apple being in the right and Epic being in the wrong, in this particular situation. It’s literally not even open to interpretation, they fundamentally broke the rules.

It’s like joining in a game with a load of people already playing, then demanding they change the rules after the fact because you don’t like them. You can’t start playing properly so they let you play, then throw a tantrum and cry that it’s not fair.

Start your own game with your own set of rules if you don’t like how the current game is being played.

It’s as simple as that.
Before the Carterphone decision it used to be against AT&T's rules to connect non-athorized devices (AKA phones not made by AT&T) to the phone network. AT&T lost. We got things like answering machines, fax machines and modems that connected directly to the phone line for faster speeds ushering us into the age of the internet.

Some rules are meant to be broken especially when one party has too much power over the market.
 

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Aug 28, 2019
9,207
16,931
660
Microsoft were denied the control to do whatever they wanted with their OS. Epic are currently challenging for the same judgement to be made against Apple because at the moment Apple can do anything they want with the OS.

You have a point; but MS could release a product that was fully locked down if they wanted to... like.. say.. the Xbox. The problem for MS was the fact Windows was a blatant monopoly.
 

LordCBH

Member
Jun 4, 2020
2,684
6,480
465
You have a point; but MS could release a product that was fully locked down if they wanted to... like.. say.. the Xbox. The problem for MS was the fact Windows was a blatant monopoly.

Ultimately that lawsuit came down to Microsoft bullying its OEM’s through awful contracts to promote their own software over competitors on windows during the “browser wars”. Without that there likely wouldn’t have been a lawsuit at all.
 
  • Like
Reactions: rnlval

Yselacrey00

Banned
Nov 20, 2018
1,358
1,655
520
its a brand new store imo that means that apple won't get anything except for the margin on the device and money from users whom continue to buy within the app store similar to macos
Yeah, he's essentially asking for Apple to open up their devices which I don't think that's something you can do. What's stopping us the from asking Nintendo to let us play unauthorized games on their platform?
 

Spacefish

Member
Dec 21, 2020
237
303
230
They've always had that legal greenlight... Epic at most will win small victories surrounding some of Apple's behavior, but there is no chance that they'll force iOS to be open. There is no law even close to suggesting that is how selling products works, and that kind of law isn't going to magically appear out of a civil case like this.
It has been ambiguous, Microsoft was reticent to appear like an aggressive monopoly because of their run in with the government many years prior. I don't see this situation as much different than mandating private infrastructure be accessible by competitors once it becomes large enough and important enough to the every day functioning of society and the economy. This has already happened with other industries and an argument can be made that computers are no longer a luxury and are now a necessary tool to participate in the modern economy/ society. This is just one step on a long road, epic will almost certainly loose this case because of much larger, unrelated pressures.
 
Jun 28, 2013
3,466
3,856
895
Windows isnt allowed to be a closed garden.

So why is iOS?

Is Apple a monopoly?

No there’s Android.

Ultimately they r probably both going to lose. Epic will still be kicked out the App store. Apple will need a option to install from outside sources ala Google.
 

Holammer

Member
Jan 3, 2019
1,785
2,463
440
Yeah, he's essentially asking for Apple to open up their devices which I don't think that's something you can do. What's stopping us the from asking Nintendo to let us play unauthorized games on their platform?
If Epic wins, every digital device will be fair game for other companies to demand their own payment processing system or even stores. Including Nintendo machines.
What you're asking is really interesting, will open source organizations (for example) demand unrestricted access to hardware? It's the logical next step.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Skyfox

reksveks

Member
Jun 4, 2020
5,191
4,891
425
Ultimately they r probably both going to lose. Epic will still be kicked out the App store. Apple will need a option to install from outside sources ala Google.
Would be a partial win for epic although I am not sure if the judge would be prescriptive in terms of how external apps would be installed aka is it closer to MacOS or android.
 

reksveks

Member
Jun 4, 2020
5,191
4,891
425
Yeah, he's essentially asking for Apple to open up their devices which I don't think that's something you can do. What's stopping us the from asking Nintendo to let us play unauthorized games on their platform?
It's going to be an interesting one but I think epic are relying on the high switching cost of being on ios and their definitions of general computing device (on the latter, I am not 100% comfortable on that argument) suggesting it's not applicable to consoles including the switch. This is why I think they might lose this battle.
 

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Aug 28, 2019
9,207
16,931
660
Ultimately that lawsuit came down to Microsoft bullying its OEM’s through awful contracts to promote their own software over competitors on windows during the “browser wars”. Without that there likely wouldn’t have been a lawsuit at all.
Yeah a lot of it boiled down to evidence of their behavior, and the Gates interview as far as why they actually lost.

But things that are perfectly legal for someone not in dominant control of a market can be illegal for someone who is, particularly if it involves them adding restrictions that didn't exist.4
 
  • Like
Reactions: reksveks

ethomaz

is mad because DF didn't do a video on a video of a video of a video on PS5
Mar 19, 2013
42,153
44,909
1,310
39
Brazil
You have a point; but MS could release a product that was fully locked down if they wanted to... like.. say.. the Xbox. The problem for MS was the fact Windows was a blatant monopoly.
I remember the lawsuit was about MS integrating it own software like IE, Windows Media, etc with little to no options to users download and install it own choose software.
 
  • Like
Reactions: FloatingIslands