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Apple Sued by DOJ for Illegal Monopoly over Smartphones

Laptop1991

Member
I went off Apple when my Ipod Touch 5 and Iphone 4 support was stopped, now that wasn't the real problem, i bought some Soundcore motion boom bluetooth speakers and they stopped me using the soundcore app that older versions use to work with them perfectly fine, i don't like that type of control forcing you to buy expensive new devices, when older devices use to work fine with older versions of the same software, and Apple does that all the time, I've been an Andriod user ever since, the apps still work on my old Galaxy 5 even now, they deserve to be sued.
 
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Spukc

always chasing the next thrill
sad chris crocker GIF

Why can't you leave Apple alone?
 
Tinfoil Hat GIF by The Tick


Why does everything have to be a conspiracy?

The EU’s investigated, fined and forced Apple to make changes. The DOJ has been working on this case since 2019 or so, and are already planning to take Google to court. There’s clearly a crackdown on Big Tech in recent years.

So where is Microsoft in these lawsuits and investigations? How is the biggest of the Big Tech companies valuation-wise, somehow exempt from being guilty of similar anticompetitive practices? Isn't is very convenient that a certain company named Microsoft is not under any of this scrutiny by those like the DOJ?

It's not a conspiracy theory; it's reading between the lines.

You cannot be serious with this.

The '90s happened.

What the heck does this have to do with the gaming market? The vast majority of the issues the DOJ puts forward have nothing to do with gaming…and this is an investigation that began years ago.

Gaming is one of the biggest tech markets in the world, and there's one company in particular that'd benefit significantly from walled gardens being torn down both in mobile and console gaming spaces. These sort of "plans", if you want to call them that, take many years to finally come together.

I'm just noticing certain conveniences here that are highly beneficial for a certain company over every other company, that's all.

As a long term Apple user, I’d be happier if I had more control over the device I pay a premium to buy. Just like I have with my MacBook Pro.

Cool, but this isn't about you. It's about if the DOJ are going to be serious about cracking down on Big Tech and go after ALL Big Tech, or if this is just theatrics (or worst, a targeted campaign) against one specific Big Tech to look like they're being "tough on Big Tech".

Especially if a certain other Big Tech company winds up benefiting immensely from whatever transpires in this lawsuit. Because here's a secret: the DOJ isn't doing this for you or me. They don't really care about us as customers. They're doing this for the corporations, investors, banks...those folks.

So start asking yourself what people among that flock, what companies among that flock, would benefit from sweeping outcomes in this lawsuit playing to their favor?
 

MarkMe2525

Member
So where is Microsoft in these lawsuits and investigations? How is the biggest of the Big Tech companies valuation-wise, somehow exempt from being guilty of similar anticompetitive practices? Isn't is very convenient that a certain company named Microsoft is not under any of this scrutiny by those like the DOJ?

It's not a conspiracy theory; it's reading between the lines.



The '90s happened.



Gaming is one of the biggest tech markets in the world, and there's one company in particular that'd benefit significantly from walled gardens being torn down both in mobile and console gaming spaces. These sort of "plans", if you want to call them that, take many years to finally come together.

I'm just noticing certain conveniences here that are highly beneficial for a certain company over every other company, that's all.



Cool, but this isn't about you. It's about if the DOJ are going to be serious about cracking down on Big Tech and go after ALL Big Tech, or if this is just theatrics (or worst, a targeted campaign) against one specific Big Tech to look like they're being "tough on Big Tech".

Especially if a certain other Big Tech company winds up benefiting immensely from whatever transpires in this lawsuit. Because here's a secret: the DOJ isn't doing this for you or me. They don't really care about us as customers. They're doing this for the corporations, investors, banks...those folks.

So start asking yourself what people among that flock, what companies among that flock, would benefit from sweeping outcomes in this lawsuit playing to their favor?
I don't think whaboutism matters in these cases. If MS is behaving in an anticompetitive way, then I imagine they might already be under investigation, those aren't things that they always disclose.
 
The government did go after Microsoft in the desktop OS space and ultimately it paved the way for Windows to become a more open ecosystem and for Mac to rebound helping to make Apple to become the company it is today. Microsoft no longer sets things up on Windows in a way that straight up prevents people from using competing services and they no longer pressure OEM's into only install Windows and Microsoft products into Windows. As it sits today people have more choice within the Windows ecosystem and with desktop OS in general than ever before.

TBF, Microsoft don't "have" to force OEMs to only provide Windows installs because the only viable OS in PC for the vast majority IS Windows. People use it by habit now, and because they have tons of programs and whatnot either only on Windows or where they are only comfortable using them on Windows. They're ingrained into that ecosystem after years of indoctrination usage.

More choice in theory does not mean that choice is actually practical or has significance in practice. By the time Microsoft were forced to open up Windows, it commanded 90%+ of the PC OS market. And this was a very mature market by the mid '00s, not like console gaming in the late '80s where Nintendo held a similar monopoly (and even in Nintendo's case, they were hit with an antitrust lawsuit over price-fixing). The vast majority are not seriously considering Linux, BSD etc. as alternatives to Windows, because there is a culturally ingrained perception that there are no real alternatives to Windows.

The vast majority have this conditioned in themselves, so what's it matter materially that Microsoft had to "open up" Windows to competitors with collectively less than 2% of the PS OS market?

Consoles as closed ecosystems could be impacted by a case like this. Fortunately you can still buy games for consoles from third party retailers as physical media and in the case of two platforms you can buy games digitally from third party retailers, so consumers still have a choice other than a single distribution channel provided by the platform holder. But if they ever go all digital and make it impossible to buy games, apps and services from anywhere but their own app store it's reasonable to assume that the DOJ could go after them, too.

And this right here is how a greedy, overzealous government, through the DOJ in particular, destroys an entire industry just to assert presence for more dollars and, I almost want to say, imperialist superiority. Because I can almost 100% guarantee that if Xbox were the console dominating the market, you'd never get a sniff or whiff of the DOJ or anyone else questioning if the console market needed to suddenly be "more open".

As to your point, I don't think the issue is actually about platform holders not allowing other digital storefronts on their system. It's the fact those other digital storefronts want to be hosted on those console WITHOUT paying a licensing fee cut to the owners of that platform! That's exactly what the Epic vs Apple stuff was about (or at least partly). It's what Microsoft's said as to why they feel they "can't" be on Apple devices. I'm pretty sure it's less about Apple completely barring them, and more about them not wanting these 3P companies circumventing them completely in terms of payments for having alternative competing storefronts on their devices.

Which should be well within the rights of a company like Apple in that scenario, or Sony & Nintendo if those like the DOJ want to take this to the console space. Because companies like Epic, Microsoft, whoever aren't putting any money or investments into R&D'ing, manufacturing, distributing, selling, marketing devices like iPhones, PlayStations or Switches. All of that is money being put up by the companies who own that platform, and if the platform fails, they're the ones losing billions. So why do 3P feel they can not only have alternative competing storefronts or whatever on them, but also NOT pay a penny to the platform holders of those systems in terms of a 30% cut?

I don't think whaboutism matters in these cases. If MS is behaving in an anticompetitive way, then I imagine they might already be under investigation, those aren't things that they always disclose.

I don't think I'm making a whataboutism so much as a reasoned conclusion; none of these Big Tech companies got to where they are by playing by the rules.

This isn't what it is about. General purpose devices (such as PCs and phones) have become engrained in how most people access basic services (email, banking, utility services etc) so if a single entity (Apple) have complete control of what is available to these devices and how then it could:
  • Stifle innovation
  • Censor communications
  • Inhibit competition of services
  • Control secondary markets
  • etc.
So nobody (here or DOJ) is saying that you should be able to move games from GOG to Steam, but what they are saying is that GOG and Steam should be allowed to exist on iOS and compete. Gaming is a frivolous example, this could have real-world worrying implications if Apple decided to (for example) restrict certain banking Apps. Yes in theory people could use their browser, but as it stands Apple control all browsers in iOS and restrict (or don't support) concepts that would allow PWAs to compete (although due to pressure this is changing I think).

I like Apple hardware, typing this on a Macbook right now, amazingly it allows me to install software from wherever I want (at my own risk), I don't see why their phones shouldn't also do this. I would like them to do it because they are a nice company that welcomes competition and backs themselves to out innovate others, but I think that they are scared of the money they will lose and want to hold on to their monopoly on the iPhone marketplace as long as possible.

GOG and Steam ARE allowed to exist on iOS, at least to my knowledge. But the reason you won't find them there is because all the games they host run on either Windows or Linux. Guess what iOS is? It's not Windows or Linux. So what point is there to bring a gaming storefront to a platform that wouldn't be able to run 99% of the games natively?

And let's say even if CDP and Valve wanted to bring their storefronts to iOS but Apple prevents them....so what? Yeah iOS is a closed ecosystem, but it's also a proprietary one. The OS is proprietary. The kernel is proprietary. A lot of the tech in iPhones is proprietary. Whether the devices are general-purpose or not doesn't mean Apple has to abide by the same standards as, say, Microsoft, because iPhones, Macs etc. are purpose-built devices for a specific, proprietary OS. Windows is a proprietary OS but inherently designed to run on non-proprietary I/O and hardware standards because that's how IBM initially designed it (out of deadline pressure, not out of intent at least, not 100% out of intent).

Apple's devices are closer to microcomputers in terms of the business design, than IBM-compatible PCs. It's always been that way. So is it suddenly only a problem because they aren't niche anymore? I'm genuinely trying to figure this out.
 
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PaintTinJr

Member
TBF, Microsoft don't "have" to force OEMs to only provide Windows installs because the only viable OS in PC for the vast majority IS Windows. People use it by habit now, and because they have tons of programs and whatnot either only on Windows or where they are only comfortable using them on Windows. They're ingrained into that ecosystem after years of indoctrination usage.

More choice in theory does not mean that choice is actually practical or has significance in practice. By the time Microsoft were forced to open up Windows, it commanded 90%+ of the PC OS market. And this was a very mature market by the mid '00s, not like console gaming in the late '80s where Nintendo held a similar monopoly (and even in Nintendo's case, they were hit with an antitrust lawsuit over price-fixing). The vast majority are not seriously considering Linux, BSD etc. as alternatives to Windows, because there is a culturally ingrained perception that there are no real alternatives to Windows.

The vast majority have this conditioned in themselves, so what's it matter materially that Microsoft had to "open up" Windows to competitors with collectively less than 2% of the PS OS market?



And this right here is how a greedy, overzealous government, through the DOJ in particular, destroys an entire industry just to assert presence for more dollars and, I almost want to say, imperialist superiority. Because I can almost 100% guarantee that if Xbox were the console dominating the market, you'd never get a sniff or whiff of the DOJ or anyone else questioning if the console market needed to suddenly be "more open".

As to your point, I don't think the issue is actually about platform holders not allowing other digital storefronts on their system. It's the fact those other digital storefronts want to be hosted on those console WITHOUT paying a licensing fee cut to the owners of that platform! That's exactly what the Epic vs Apple stuff was about (or at least partly). It's what Microsoft's said as to why they feel they "can't" be on Apple devices. I'm pretty sure it's less about Apple completely barring them, and more about them not wanting these 3P companies circumventing them completely in terms of payments for having alternative competing storefronts on their devices.

Which should be well within the rights of a company like Apple in that scenario, or Sony & Nintendo if those like the DOJ want to take this to the console space. Because companies like Epic, Microsoft, whoever aren't putting any money or investments into R&D'ing, manufacturing, distributing, selling, marketing devices like iPhones, PlayStations or Switches. All of that is money being put up by the companies who own that platform, and if the platform fails, they're the ones losing billions. So why do 3P feel they can not only have alternative competing storefronts or whatever on them, but also NOT pay a penny to the platform holders of those systems in terms of a 30% cut?



I don't think I'm making a whataboutism so much as a reasoned conclusion; none of these Big Tech companies got to where they are by playing by the rules.



GOG and Steam ARE allowed to exist on iOS, at least to my knowledge. But the reason you won't find them there is because all the games they host run on either Windows or Linux. Guess what iOS is? It's not Windows or Linux. So what point is there to bring a gaming storefront to a platform that wouldn't be able to run 99% of the games natively?

And let's say even if CDP and Valve wanted to bring their storefronts to iOS but Apple prevents them....so what? Yeah iOS is a closed ecosystem, but it's also a proprietary one. The OS is proprietary. The kernel is proprietary. A lot of the tech in iPhones is proprietary. Whether the devices are general-purpose or not doesn't mean Apple has to abide by the same standards as, say, Microsoft, because iPhones, Macs etc. are purpose-built devices for a specific, proprietary OS. Windows is a proprietary OS but inherently designed to run on non-proprietary I/O and hardware standards because that's how IBM initially designed it (out of deadline pressure, not out of intent at least, not 100% out of intent).

Apple's devices are closer to microcomputers in terms of the business design, than IBM-compatible PCs. It's always been that way. So is it suddenly only a problem because they aren't niche anymore? I'm genuinely trying to figure this out.
Most of what you've mentioned I agree with, but iOS is based on linux, and relies heavily on derived protocols, APIs and standards that they've been able to freely study and copy. The iPhone was late to the market when all the major players like Nokia, Ericsson, Motorola, Blackberry and Sony, etc had already done all the extremely difficult part of making mobiles phones and then smartphones viable, long before Apple was there, who in-turn eventually freeloaded all those audio, comms, etc patents at fair market rate - set by courts in the end - because they didn't pay for the R&D in time/money and didn't want to pay those that built the mobile phone market and technology stack their equivalent 30% cut, as it would be.

Apple success only happened because courts weren't prepared to let the music industry make audio DRM mandatory allowing Apple to win massive market share against Walkman for allowing DRM free ripping of audio to the iPod that facilitated widespread audio piracy that was a positive virus for Apple to sell their inferior portable audio players, so it seems very odd that they are now the DRM, that take issue with everyone else wanting to cut them out legally, when they built their success on a device facilitating consumers at large illegally cutting out music publishers right to earn from proliferation of their copyrighted audio.

IMO iPhone and iPad are general purpose devices and should be unlocked the same as any other general purpose PC, and Apple don't deserve control or a cut from consumers wishing to just buy the device and use alternate stores/services.
 
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One is not sold in place of a general purpose computing or telecommunications device, which those capabilities carry added regulation. The Switch, PlayStation and Xbox have nothing in common - for strict regulation - with general purpose computing and telecommunications devices.
The Switch, Playstation, Xbox have alot in common...they are all gaming platforms. Cross-play is possible between all of them. Sony is the dominant platform, I guess that means they are a monopoly? The iPhone is a phone that happens to be market leader, they aren’t the only choice. They aren’t a monopoly.
 
Many of the comments in the thread are based on people only reading the title and doing the typical knee jerk "just don't buy an iPhone if you don't like it" apologia.

The lawsuit isn't about people not being able to move their apps to a phone that isn't an iPhone. It's about how difficult Apple makes it for consumers to leave their walled garden, how difficult Apple makes it to interact with people using phones outside of the Apple walled garden, and how difficult Apple makes it for third party apps to operate consistently across platforms due to how Apple intentionally diminishes what they're capable of on iOS compared to Apple's native apps.
So what? So because Apple is better, its a problem???

edit: sorry about the triple post I meant to keep it to two
 
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PaintTinJr

Member
The Switch, Playstation, Xbox have alot in common...they are all gaming platforms. Cross-play is possible between all of them. Sony is the dominant platform, I guess that means they are a monopoly? The iPhone is a phone that happens to be market leader, they aren’t the only choice. They aren’t a monopoly.
Lots in common does not make them sold as general purpose PCs, smartphones or tablets, and the software that is developed to exploit their unique console market niche gaming features such as the custom six priority level IO complex storage subsystem is worlds apart from the black box use of the IO subsystem in a WinPC, MacOS linux, Android or iOS device. Same with the graphics features of the PS5 where the final game products by the end of the gen will be paradoxically tied to the underlying custom hardware to extract superior performance than similar general purpose hardware in the quest for the console platform holder to extend the life of the custom console longer for consumers and developers to provide a superior value proposition and quality over the generation compared to the much wider smartphone and PC gaming market which the console market is just a fraction of.
 

smbu2000

Member
It's facetime that seems to have all the kids "needing" an iPhone. Both of my daughters begged to get one because of that app. Android all the way for me
Well Apple had originally planned to release Facetime as an open standard when they announced it way back in 2010. Afterwards they were sued by VirnetX for patent infringement for facetime. That’s why they could never do anything beyond apple devices for so long.

https://www.imore.com/why-facetime-...ll-hasnt-released-it-open-standard-and-patent

looks like the trial/appeals finally ended just this year.
https://www.imore.com/apple/virnetx...14-years-of-court-battles-now-come-to-a-close
 

Bojanglez

The Amiga Brotherhood
GOG and Steam ARE allowed to exist on iOS, at least to my knowledge. But the reason you won't find them there is because all the games they host run on either Windows or Linux. Guess what iOS is? It's not Windows or Linux. So what point is there to bring a gaming storefront to a platform that wouldn't be able to run 99% of the games natively?

And let's say even if CDP and Valve wanted to bring their storefronts to iOS but Apple prevents them....so what? Yeah iOS is a closed ecosystem, but it's also a proprietary one. The OS is proprietary. The kernel is proprietary. A lot of the tech in iPhones is proprietary. Whether the devices are general-purpose or not doesn't mean Apple has to abide by the same standards as, say, Microsoft, because iPhones, Macs etc. are purpose-built devices for a specific, proprietary OS. Windows is a proprietary OS but inherently designed to run on non-proprietary I/O and hardware standards because that's how IBM initially designed it (out of deadline pressure, not out of intent at least, not 100% out of intent).

Apple's devices are closer to microcomputers in terms of the business design, than IBM-compatible PCs. It's always been that way. So is it suddenly only a problem because they aren't niche anymore? I'm genuinely trying to figure this out.

You are taking a random example too literally, I just referenced those companies because the other comment mentioned them. A better example is Epic Games Store, they actually plan to release an iOS Storefront if they are allowed and will then allow developers to sell iOS (arm64) compiled games via that . As it stands Apple is prohibiting other storefronts or mechanisms to install software on iPhone hardware, and when being made to open it up (by the EU), they are putting up so many obstacles to make it unlikely for competition to establish itself.

Many developers would love to be able to offer their iOS apps via alternative storefronts, allowing alternative payment methods and benefitting from competitive terms. Many companies would love to be able to offer iOS app installs directly from their website, and/or have their Apps support basic things like in-app payments without having to use Apple's payment methods or adhere to Apple's ever changing guidelines (obstacles) and arbitrary and sometimes random App review process.

Macs run any software I want that is available from third parties, it is an open platform in that sense, Apple does not have to approve the software nor does it prohibit it from running, it allows software to be installed from any source. I don't see why iPhones can't also allow this.

People that love the security the App store gives them can continue to use it, great for you and the devs that see the value in the effort Apple put into it. But why would you (as a consumer) not want choice?
 

Tams

Member
Well Apple had originally planned to release Facetime as an open standard when they announced it way back in 2010. Afterwards they were sued by VirnetX for patent infringement for facetime. That’s why they could never do anything beyond apple devices for so long.

https://www.imore.com/why-facetime-...ll-hasnt-released-it-open-standard-and-patent

looks like the trial/appeals finally ended just this year.
https://www.imore.com/apple/virnetx...14-years-of-court-battles-now-come-to-a-close

Well, in making the iPhone, Apple trampled over and used a load of patents (mostly held by Nokia) without permission and licensing.

They were forced to pay retrospectively, but by then it was too late for the likes of Nokia and the Sony - Ericsson partnership.
 

smbu2000

Member
Well, in making the iPhone, Apple trampled over and used a load of patents (mostly held by Nokia) without permission and licensing.

They were forced to pay retrospectively, but by then it was too late for the likes of Nokia and the Sony - Ericsson partnership.
What does that have to do with facetime?
 

twilo99

Member
So you are not going to explain that nonsense?

Do you really think that Microsoft would’ve allowed a 3rd party store to piggyback on their platform without them making a cut or doing it themselves if they weren’t slapped by the DoJ for monopoly, etc.?

Are you forgetting that we are talking about Microsoft?

Why is Apple not allowing 3rd party stores on iOS? If you can answer that question you will understand
 

Topher

Gold Member
Do you really think that Microsoft would’ve allowed a 3rd party store to piggyback on their platform without them making a cut or doing it themselves if they weren’t slapped by the DoJ for monopoly, etc.?

Are you forgetting that we are talking about Microsoft?

So you are just speculating....wildly. I thought as much. Regardless, being a monopoly is NOT illegal. Using your monopoly to quash competition is. DOJ going after Microsoft was about the browser wars. Netscape vs IE. Microsoft integrated IE into Windows in order to make it the default browser of the internet. That's why DOJ sued. If what you are saying were true then Microsoft would have just prevented Netscape from being on Windows by closing the platform, but that's not even remotely what happened. Windows was never in danger of becoming a closed platform.

Why is Apple not allowing 3rd party stores on iOS? If you can answer that question you will understand

False equivalence. I'l repeat. Windows has always been an open platform. iOS has never been an open platform.
 
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twilo99

Member
So you are just speculating....wildly. I thought as much. Regardless, being a monopoly is NOT illegal. Using your monopoly to quash competition is. DOJ going after Microsoft was about the browser wars. Netscape vs IE. Microsoft integrated IE into Windows in order to make it the default browser of the internet. That's why DOJ sued. If what you are saying were true then Microsoft would have just prevented Netscape from being on Windows by closing the platform, but that's not even remotely what happened. Windows was never in danger of becoming a closed platform.



False equivalence. I'l repeat. Windows has always been an open platform. iOS has never been an open platform.

You think that because it was an open platform Microsoft would’ve kept it that way regardless of what happened to them legally back then?

This is Microsoft we are talking about, if there was no government oversight, things will be very different, but I do appreciate your positive outlook on the matter.
 

Topher

Gold Member
You think that because it was an open platform Microsoft would’ve kept it that way regardless of what happened to them legally back then?

This is Microsoft we are talking about, if there was no government oversight, things will be very different, but I do appreciate your positive outlook on the matter.

Not a positive/negative outlook. Just a matter of being factual. The DOJ will enforce antitrust laws whenever they find they have been violated. If Microsoft tried to close Windows then yes, they would be in violation of those laws and would get sued by the DOJ and all 50 states, more than likely. We are talking about a platform that has had dominant marketshare for decades. All of this would be the case regardless of DOJ's prior lawsuit. Your mistake is thinking that the DOJ's prior lawsuit is why Windows is still open when, in fact, making Windows a closed platform would be a violation of antitrust laws regardless. That prior lawsuit would not make further antitrust violations any more or less illegal. You seem to think that if DOJ had not sued Microsoft over Netscape then they wouldn't have been able to sue Microsoft for closing Windows as a platform. That's simply false.
 
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twilo99

Member
Not a positive/negative outlook. Just a matter of being factual. The DOJ will enforce antitrust laws whenever they find they have been violated. If Microsoft tried to close Windows then yes, they would be in violation of those laws and would get sued by the DOJ and all 50 states, more than likely. We are talking about a platform that has had dominant marketshare for decades. All of this would be the case regardless of DOJ's prior lawsuit. Your mistake is thinking that the DOJ's prior lawsuit is why Windows is still open when, in fact, making Windows a closed platform would be a violation of antitrust laws regardless. That prior lawsuit would not make further antitrust violations any more or less illegal. You seem to think that if DOJ had not sued Microsoft over Netscape then they wouldn't have been able to sue Microsoft for closing Windows as a platform. That's simply false.

I’ve talked to a lot of people in the tech industry about this over the years and the sentiment is something similar to this here



All hypothetical of course, but things will be VERY different if the DoJ didn’t intervene, that I’m certain about.



Yes, just imagine …
 
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Lots in common does not make them sold as general purpose PCs, smartphones or tablets, and the software that is developed to exploit their unique console market niche gaming features such as the custom six priority level IO complex storage subsystem is worlds apart from the black box use of the IO subsystem in a WinPC, MacOS linux, Android or iOS device. Same with the graphics features of the PS5 where the final game products by the end of the gen will be paradoxically tied to the underlying custom hardware to extract superior performance than similar general purpose hardware in the quest for the console platform holder to extend the life of the custom console longer for consumers and developers to provide a superior value proposition and quality over the generation compared to the much wider smartphone and PC gaming market which the console market is just a fraction of.
LOL what’s your point? What makes iPhone a monopoly? I’ll wait..
 

Ozriel

M$FT
So where is Microsoft in these lawsuits and investigations? How is the biggest of the Big Tech companies valuation-wise, somehow exempt from being guilty of similar anticompetitive practices? Isn't is very convenient that a certain company named Microsoft is not under any of this scrutiny by those like the DOJ?

It's not a conspiracy theory; it's reading between the lines.


Because these anti-competitive practices are not a factor of market capitalization. How come you’re unable to name a single area where they should be scrutinized for abuse of market power to the extent Apple is being accused?

Cloud? Desktop OS?

And they’ve certainly not been fully unscathed. The EU’s forced them to unbundle Teams from their Office suite in response to complaints from Slack…and they accepted ‘gatekeeper’ designation from the EU recently, with guardrails in place.

After the major antitrust trials, MS has a significant amount of guardrails applied to them. If you have compelling evidence that they’ve broken these guardrails, why aren’t you reporting this to the DOJ?

Gaming is one of the biggest tech markets in the world, and there's one company in particular that'd benefit significantly from walled gardens being torn down both in mobile and console gaming spaces. These sort of "plans", if you want to call them that, take many years to finally come together.

I'm just noticing certain conveniences here that are highly beneficial for a certain company over every other company, that's all.

Microsoft has complained about Apple’s practices with respect to the App Store and how locked down iOS is. There’s nothing new or hidden in this.
Painting a broad ranging DOJ complaint that focuses heavily on non-gaming aspects as a sponsored campaign from Microsoft…that’s just tinfoil hat conspiracy theory.

Cool, but this isn't about you. It's about if the DOJ are going to be serious about cracking down on Big Tech and go after ALL Big Tech, or if this is just theatrics (or worst, a targeted campaign) against one specific Big Tech to look like they're being "tough on Big Tech".

Especially if a certain other Big Tech company winds up benefiting immensely from whatever transpires in this lawsuit.

Their lawsuit is precisely about consumers like you and me, and is similar to the anti-trust case filed against Microsoft back then.
You also betray your ignorance when you claim it’s just one Big Tech company being targeted. The DOJ also has an active case against Google . This made the news…how are you unaware of this?

Especially if a certain other Big Tech company winds up benefiting immensely from whatever transpires in this lawsuit.

Android phone makers like Samsung will benefit immensely if iMessage is opened up and the blue bubble stigma vanishes. Ditto for Google with Android and forcing Apple to provide full support for RCS. Everyone who makes WearOS smartwatches will get benefits if Apple is forced to allow wearOS smartwatches have the same access as Apple Watch. Financial institutions get benefits for not being forced to go through Apple Pay/Wallet to use NFC payments. Epic gets their own App Store in the U.S.

you’ll have to make a bigger list for your theories.

Because here's a secret: the DOJ isn't doing this for you or me. They don't really care about us as customers. They're doing this for the corporations, investors, banks...those folks.

Seems more like they’re doing their jobs?
 
Well, in making the iPhone, Apple trampled over and used a load of patents (mostly held by Nokia) without permission and licensing.

They were forced to pay retrospectively, but by then it was too late for the likes of Nokia and the Sony - Ericsson partnership.
And in creating the USA, the founding fathers used slaves and racism to build America, slaves built alot of the infrastructure and most big tech companies have stolen ideas and technology. It seems like the DOJ is just going after specific companies for their own agendas. What makes Apple a monopoly?
 

reinking

Gold Member

I’ve talked to a lot of people in the tech industry about this over the years and the sentiment is something similar to this here



All hypothetical of course, but things will be VERY different if the DoJ didn’t intervene, that I’m certain about.



Yes, just imagine …

Imagine if Microsoft had designed a personal device to operate Windows instead of it being used on other platforms. Imagine that. Things would be different. iOS is designed to be used on Apple phone/tablet devices; not open platforms. I have no idea why Windows is always brought into this. Windows and iOS are serving completely different markets.

I don't care either way what happens with Apple. I have the same deal with them that I have had with every device I have ever purchased. I buy their product and use it until it no longer serves my purpose. I have zero obligation to defend them just like I have zero obligation to attack them. However, I do not like some things about this. For one, Apple customers have purchased these devices with an expectation of safety and ease of use. If this becomes a situation in which they are forced to loosen up security or if others find ways to exploit additional store fronts or services, I do not like that at all. This goes against what most Apple customers desire.

At the end of the day, maybe I will get some features or improvements I will use. There are some things that I would like to see and if that is a result of this it is a win for me personally. I still might not agree with the overall premise though because I am not the majority of Apple users.
 

Topher

Gold Member
I’ve talked to a lot of people in the tech industry about this over the years and the sentiment is something similar to this here



All hypothetical of course, but things will be VERY different if the DoJ didn’t intervene, that I’m certain about.



Yes, just imagine …


MS paid Apple before USG filed its suit against MS and had nothing to do with DOJ at all. I mean....I don't disagree that things would be worse off if the DOJ had not sued Microsoft, but all these alternative doomsday scenarios need to have some facts behind them or its just more typical twitter bullshit.
 
Yes, this is the exact PR line Apple wants people to repeat. Trust us with everything. You need us to control everything because only Apple can keep you safe.
LOL, but they do. How many viruses does iPhone have compared to Android? Also isn’t Android OS a monopoly since it’s used by most smartphones in the world?
 
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Ozriel

M$FT
For one, Apple customers have purchased these devices with an expectation of safety and ease of use. If this becomes a situation in which they are forced to loosen up security or if others find ways to exploit additional store fronts or services, I do not like that at all. This goes against what most Apple customers desire.

At the end of the day, maybe I will get some features or improvements I will use. There are some things that I would like to see and if that is a result of this it is a win for me personally. I still might not agree with the overall premise though because I am not the majority of Apple users.

There is absolutely nothing in the DOJ's claims that will lead to a reduction in safety or ease of use for any Apple user who prefers to keep using their device same as ever.

Do you think other Mac users are negatively impacted if you download and install an app outside the Mac app store? Will your iPhone get harder to use if Samsung Galaxy Watch users can pair their smartwatches to iPhones and have the same level of functionality as Apple Watch devices? Would allowing iMessage on Android or a robust implementation of RCS really hurt your own use case?

These are the issues.
 

Topher

Gold Member
LOL, but they do. How many viruses does iPhone have compared to Android? Also isn’t Android OS a monopoly since it’s used by most smartphones in the world?

"Monopoly" operating system being implemented by multiple companies though so that that's a hard label to apply here. I don't think iPhone is a monopoly either though. Seems like a ton of competition to me.
 
There is absolutely nothing in the DOJ's claims that will lead to a reduction in safety or ease of use for any Apple user who prefers to keep using their device same as ever.

Do you think other Mac users are negatively impacted if you download and install an app outside the Mac app store? Will your iPhone get harder to use if Samsung Galaxy Watch users can pair their smartwatches to iPhones and have the same level of functionality as Apple Watch devices? Would allowing iMessage on Android or a robust implementation of RCS really hurt your own use case?

These are the issues.
But why should iPhone features be on Android? Why should samsung watches work on iPhone? Why should Apple allow apps installed outside of the App store? Its THEIR choice. Thats why people buy iPhones. Its like forcing Sony to allow PS5 games to be played on Nintendo Switch. Its stupid. This is overreach by authorities.
 
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DaGwaphics

Member
Their lawsuit is precisely about consumers like you and me, and is similar to the anti-trust case filed against Microsoft back then.

I honestly can't see where the part about the App store has anything to do with consumers at all. And I've never seen consumers ever have a complaint about this in any way shape or form, only Apple's competitors and competing stores. If users felt they were being hurt by the limitations of the iOS store they would buy Android devices, which are readily available from whatever carrier they are buying the iPhone from. The only realistic outcome for consumers from any changes made here is more expensive iPhones and/or phone services depending on how Apple chooses to recoup their losses.

If Apple is boxing out Android by limiting access to software or suppliers (ultimatums about not being allowed to supply both), then I can see that comparison. MS was not allowing third-parties to include software of their choosing (software that did run on the platform) by threatening to alter Windows pricing. Apple builds their own devices.

It will be interesting to see how it all works out. There might be a lot of pressure to avoid falling behind the EU since now that region will have open access to app stores, albeit with much more expensive iPhones in the future, I'm sure.
 
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WitchHunter

Banned
So where is Microsoft in these lawsuits and investigations? How is the biggest of the Big Tech companies valuation-wise, somehow exempt from being guilty of similar anticompetitive practices? Isn't is very convenient that a certain company named Microsoft is not under any of this scrutiny by those like the DOJ?
Now AAPL gets the treatment, just like MSFT did. Theatre incoming.

Now the righteous government will do its job, just watch it unfold. There will be hearings, and articles and interviews and after that you can grow until you reach 10 trillion dollar market capitalization and everything will be fine.

Watch the movie Network (1976). This gives you something to chew on. Sydney Lumet was king kong.
 
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Mooreberg

Member
Most of what you've mentioned I agree with, but iOS is based on linux, and relies heavily on derived protocols, APIs and standards that they've been able to freely study and copy. The iPhone was late to the market when all the major players like Nokia, Ericsson, Motorola, Blackberry and Sony, etc had already done all the extremely difficult part of making mobiles phones and then smartphones viable, long before Apple was there, who in-turn eventually freeloaded all those audio, comms, etc patents at fair market rate - set by courts in the end - because they didn't pay for the R&D in time/money and didn't want to pay those that built the mobile phone market and technology stack their equivalent 30% cut, as it would be.
This is me being being hyper technical, no offense intended: macOS, iOS (and subsequently iPad OS) are based on FreeBSD. Also free and open source (though considered a "full os" and not just a kernel like Linux), but far more "permissive" licensing: Any person or company can take the source code, build on it, and are under no obligation to release their own source code. Sony and Nintendo use FreeBSD as well.

Linux is GPL which is a lot more restrictive, but worth it for companies where the o/s is a means to an end, not always a totally vertically integrated product: Google with Android, Valve with Steam O/S (still Debian, I believe) and the Steam Deck interface (Arch Linux), Canonical with Ubuntu (money is made on support contracts). Google and Valve in particular invite other companies to jump in with their own hardware; the more users, the more money made on apps or games.

I don't think a Linux based console would be released by a megacorp. Closest I can remember was the crowd funded "Indrema" which never made it to market.
 

Tams

Member
But why should iPhone features be on Android? Why should samsung watches work on iPhone? Why should Apple allow apps installed outside of the App store? Its THEIR choice. Thats why people buy iPhones. Its like forcing Sony to allow PS5 games to be played on Nintendo Switch. Its stupid. This is overreach by authorities.

When your product leads to the isolation, exclusion and stigmatism of people, and you use your msrket position to quash choice.
 

Ozriel

M$FT
I honestly can't see where the part about the App store has anything to do with consumers at all. And I've never seen consumers ever have a complaint about this in any way shape or form, only Apple's competitors and competing stores. If users felt they were being hurt by the limitations of the iOS store they would buy Android devices, which are readily available from whatever carrier they are buying the iPhone from.

I see. Where’s Fortnite on iOS? Why’s there no native XCloud and Nvidia GeforceNow app?


The only realistic outcome for consumers from any changes made here is more expensive iPhones and/or phone services depending on how Apple chooses to recoup their losses.

What ‘losses’? Apple already has a very healthy profit margin on hardware alone, and the AppStore will remain wildly popular, even with changes.

The fact you envisage losses means your initial premise (that changes aren’t something Apple customers care about) is wrong, doesn’t it?
 
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