• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • The Politics forum has been nuked. Please do not bring political discussion to the rest of the site, or you will be removed. Thanks.

Drama Epic Games vs Apple in court face off INCLUDING Tim Sweeney , LIVE !!!

lukilladog

Member
Feb 6, 2018
2,034
1,251
475
How's this bad for the future of gaming?



Apple are in the wrong here, I own the hardware I should be able to install software on it in whatever way/source I see fit. My only apple device is an ipad pro that was gifted to me, the first thing I did with it was jailbreak it for that very reason.

This is not a case of Apple vs consumers though. Companies are not entitled to sell their stuff wherever they see fit.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Genx3 and phil_t98

phil_t98

Member
Oct 10, 2014
5,132
5,500
735
How's this bad for the future of gaming?



Apple are in the wrong here, I own the hardware I should be able to install software on it in whatever way/source I see fit. My only apple device is an ipad pro that was gifted to me, the first thing I did with it was jailbreak it for that very reason.

quality control, side loading games onto devices that are not going through the usual procedures. imagine if Cyberpunk on the playstation was side loaded and you couldn't get a refund because the store you got it from doesn't recognise refunds.
you would get assorts of things crashing the consoles in the backgrounds and before you know it something side loaded would put viruses or malware onto the consoles.

yeah you can jailbreak iPhones and stuff, I have done it in the past but you don't get a smooth ride always and get restarts and crashes
 
  • Like
Reactions: Genx3

A.Romero

Member
Feb 23, 2009
3,733
2,531
1,250
Mexico
www.lavejota.com
100%

I've never seen anyone on the pro Apple/Google side answer this question:

As smartphones increasingly become the primary computing device for people across the globe, should Apple and Google become the de facto gatekeepers for all business and commerce across the world?

If people don't understand what I'm asking, almost all businesses and services require apps these days. Apple and Google have the ability to shut down, or stop, any business that relies on these apps for no reason. We have seen them take arbitrary action before. App Store policies previously have not even allowed people to know who their customers are. Apple has all of the power, and all of the say.

Should these two companies rule over every business on the planet?

The mobile app stores, simply, must not be allowed to exist in their current form. We need freedom to distribute software as we choose, with no overlords.

Of course not. However, there is an option for business that want to skip this risk and that is using devices that don't rely on the store as well as sideloding apps.

With MDM applications you can deploy apk files directly to your company's devices and you don't need to go through any store.

I'm not sure if it works the same way with Apple but I have done it with Android, no problem. It will even work with any distribution which opens the option to compiling your own Android version.

On the other hand, I'm pretty sure that if the need arises manufacturers will come up with options because demand will be there.
 

Dr Bass

Member
Jun 6, 2013
2,290
6,666
955
Of course not. However, there is an option for business that want to skip this risk and that is using devices that don't rely on the store as well as sideloding apps.

With MDM applications you can deploy apk files directly to your company's devices and you don't need to go through any store.

I'm not sure if it works the same way with Apple but I have done it with Android, no problem. It will even work with any distribution which opens the option to compiling your own Android version.

On the other hand, I'm pretty sure that if the need arises manufacturers will come up with options because demand will be there.
Ok, so we agree that Apple and Google should not be able to be corporate overlords to every business on Earth that needs to deal in mobile. Awesome.

So how do you square that with the rest of your statement? What does a company like Uber, or Lyft, do if Apple decides they are arbitrarily in breach? Remember, this is not an academic question. This happens. There is no "side loading" on iOS for consumers, and the process you describe for Android also just does not apply to the general public. I mean geez, you even brought up the idea of "compiling your own Android version."

I don't think you understand the consumer marketplace.

But I am glad you agree with my original point. What you stated afterwards still has no bearing on that point however.
 

FStubbs

Member
Aug 29, 2010
5,302
1,516
1,045
Of course not. However, there is an option for business that want to skip this risk and that is using devices that don't rely on the store as well as sideloding apps.

With MDM applications you can deploy apk files directly to your company's devices and you don't need to go through any store.

I'm not sure if it works the same way with Apple but I have done it with Android, no problem. It will even work with any distribution which opens the option to compiling your own Android version.

On the other hand, I'm pretty sure that if the need arises manufacturers will come up with options because demand will be there.
Ideally company phones are going to be Android, locked down, with the .apks needed for business sideloaded by an IT staff.
 
  • Like
Reactions: A.Romero

phil_t98

Member
Oct 10, 2014
5,132
5,500
735
Hate Apple.

Hate their overpriced products.

And i could care less about future of my hobby hehe.

see that’s where attitude is just stupid, yeah fair enough you dislike a product that a company makes but to hate is just silly

it’s even more silly when something that could happen to them could effect the whole of the gaming industry in a bad way
 

Ridaxan

Member
Dec 29, 2015
251
162
390
Cape Town
I'm glad that we're finally seeing some movement due to Epic banging the proverbial drum. This is going to have massive positive impact in the long run. It's not going to stop with Apple, and that's a good thing.

fwiw. I say this as someone who's completely in the Apple ecosystem and who is a fan of their products.
 
  • Like
Reactions: reksveks

phil_t98

Member
Oct 10, 2014
5,132
5,500
735
I'm glad that we're finally seeing some movement due to Epic banging the proverbial drum. This is going to have massive positive impact in the long run. It's not going to stop with Apple, and that's a good thing.

fwiw. I say this as someone who's completely in the Apple ecosystem and who is a fan of their products.

How do you think this will effect consoles and their closed eco systems though
 

Ridaxan

Member
Dec 29, 2015
251
162
390
Cape Town
How do you think this will effect consoles and their closed eco systems though

Honestly? I don't even know. I doubt we'll see an outcome where it's completely open and you can load anything you want ala Windows or OSX. The argument can be made that consoles have very specific/limited use cases, which could in turn result in an exemption? I think the current 30% model is very egregious though, so hopefully we see some positive impact for developers here.
 

A.Romero

Member
Feb 23, 2009
3,733
2,531
1,250
Mexico
www.lavejota.com
Ok, so we agree that Apple and Google should not be able to be corporate overlords to every business on Earth that needs to deal in mobile. Awesome.

So how do you square that with the rest of your statement? What does a company like Uber, or Lyft, do if Apple decides they are arbitrarily in breach? Remember, this is not an academic question. This happens. There is no "side loading" on iOS for consumers, and the process you describe for Android also just does not apply to the general public. I mean geez, you even brought up the idea of "compiling your own Android version."

I don't think you understand the consumer marketplace.

But I am glad you agree with my original point. What you stated afterwards still has no bearing on that point however.

I'm in the IT industry, I understand it.

We were talking about businesses. Loading apks is entirely within the reach of any business today without huge expenses.

Uber, Lyft, etc know the risks of working on these platforms. Their entire business model relies on them! Still, they decided to go forward and work with them. You would be surprised how well these companies are prepared to deal with these scenarios and how aware they are of the policies they need to be aware of.

Google and Apple also have an interest on keeping their devices useful so they won't act against popular apps that the general public appreciate unless they are forced to do so like Epic forced Apple in this case. If they take down an app unfairly you have a case but this is Epic trying to avoid paying, nothing else.
 

Tripolygon

Member
May 6, 2012
4,840
7,536
1,160
NYC
Sweet. Get fucked Apple as I type this on my MacBook Pro. Lmao
permanently restrained and enjoined from prohibiting developers from including in their apps and their metadata buttons, external links, or other calls to action that direct customers to purchasing mechanisms, in addition to In-App Purchasing and (ii) communicating with customers through points of contact obtained voluntarily from customers through account registration within the app.

New thread worthy imo.
 
Last edited:

Pagusas

Elden Member
Jun 9, 2006
13,560
5,819
1,870
Prosper, Tx
So in summary: Epic got modest victory here, they still got smacked for breach of contract, but from here on out Apple has to let all app producers give multiple payment options, including ones not ties to apples payment system, they can even direct customer to go outside of the app, buy the service and return, thus complely removing apple from the money cut. Am i reading that right?

this part is pretty big:

“The court cannot ultimately conclude that apple is a monopolist under either federal or state antitrust laws,” she writes in the ruling. “Nonetheless, the trial did show that apple is engaging in anti-competitive conduct under California’s competition laws.”

its both a win and a loss for apple, lol.


Not a monopoly, but still engaging in bad behavior that needs to be corrected via a court order.
 
Last edited:

NickFire

Member
Mar 12, 2014
9,323
10,429
980
So in summary: Epic got modest victory here, they still got smacked for breach of contract, but from here on out Apple has to let all app producers give multiple payment options, including ones not ties to apples payment system, they can even direct customer to go outside of the app, buy the service and return, thus complely removing apple from the money cut. Am i reading that right?

this part is pretty big:

“The court cannot ultimately conclude that apple is a monopolist under either federal or state antitrust laws,” she writes in the ruling. “Nonetheless, the trial did show that apple is engaging in anti-competitive conduct under California’s competition laws.”

its both a win and a loss for apple, lol.


Not a monopoly, but still engaging in bad behavior that needs to be corrected via a court order.
If laws specific to CA are the only reason Apple loses, it will be very interesting to see if those laws remain on the books for long once the ruling is final.
 

Bitmap Frogs

Mr. Community
Dec 26, 2008
12,638
7,716
1,560
Spain
It's going to be interesting how Apple reacts to this, it's going to wreck their services revenue.

The immediate and easiest solution is to charge a license to put your software on the store.
 

Swoopsail

Member
Apr 18, 2021
662
655
305
100%

I've never seen anyone on the pro Apple/Google side answer this question:

As smartphones increasingly become the primary computing device for people across the globe, should Apple and Google become the de facto gatekeepers for all business and commerce across the world?

If people don't understand what I'm asking, almost all businesses and services require apps these days. Apple and Google have the ability to shut down, or stop, any business that relies on these apps for no reason. We have seen them take arbitrary action before. App Store policies previously have not even allowed people to know who their customers are. Apple has all of the power, and all of the say.

Should these two companies rule over every business on the planet?

The mobile app stores, simply, must not be allowed to exist in their current form. We need freedom to distribute software as we choose, with no overlords.
It's really silly if you think about it. I don't pay through some app service any time I want to install a program or game on my pc. In fact you can also install apps on phones without a store too; it's just uninuitive and messy atm. They could make it more convenient and just remove all app stores, but I guess it's a money/greed thing. Apple always does dumb shit to tie you in to being stuck with them. I HATED when they used to intensely encrypt any music files I bought so they were tied to itunes forever. It's taken me awhile to lift the shackles of itunes and get a better setup; so happy now. I highly recommend musicbee.
 

Genx3

Member
Jun 23, 2019
968
1,391
400
It's going to be interesting how Apple reacts to this, it's going to wreck their services revenue.

The immediate and easiest solution is to charge a license to put your software on the store.

The judge stated that Apple can still charge commissions for purchases made outside of the Apple App store for their devices.

In other words, Epic will still have to pay Apple a commission for sales in their own (Epic) store for Apple's devices.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bitmap Frogs