Negotiator101
Member
T10.
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Digital Foundry: Forza Motorsport: Is 4K 60fps + Ray Tracing Really Possible on Series X?
- Thread starter adamsapple
- Start date
itsjustJEFF
Member
Yes, I'd say labeling that 1 minute video as "in-game" is BS cause you know that is the video that will circulate most... but like you said, it's the kind of BS that almost everyone pulls. If they just took that label off... it's be completely cool.
itsjustJEFF
Member
Exactly... but these publishers are IN LOVE with being able to say it's 4K!
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
Alex states concerning T10 and the Forza Monthly video: "specifically they mentioned that replays, garage, photo mode and more have ray traced global illumination". He does this while showing a clip from the latest Forza Monthly without audio. Then he states that the 1-min trailer is misleading and soured him.
They never stated that during Forza Monthly. I watched it live, then once more to double-check his claim and Chris only stated in non-gameplay they have the "capability" and you'll see it in "some cases", never "specifically they mention that replays, garage, photo mode, and more have ray traced global illumination". Additionally, he claims that they stated that you can see these "replay mode graphics in the trailer". That was never stated. That's hypocritical and misleading to present the video of Forza Monthly without audio as some sort of proof they stated that, in order to reinforce his allegation that it's misleading, when he is the one chopping out audio, inserting his own made up claims, and misleading people.
My evidence:
I'll wait for Alex's proof that, "out of the blue Turn 10 actually announced in a stream that this one minute long trailer does indeed have better ray tracing quality than the 5 minute long demo. Specifically they mentioned that replays, garage, photo mode, and more have ray trace global illumination"
They never stated that during Forza Monthly. I watched it live, then once more to double-check his claim and Chris only stated in non-gameplay they have the "capability" and you'll see it in "some cases", never "specifically they mention that replays, garage, photo mode, and more have ray traced global illumination". Additionally, he claims that they stated that you can see these "replay mode graphics in the trailer". That was never stated. That's hypocritical and misleading to present the video of Forza Monthly without audio as some sort of proof they stated that, in order to reinforce his allegation that it's misleading, when he is the one chopping out audio, inserting his own made up claims, and misleading people.
My evidence:
I'll wait for Alex's proof that, "out of the blue Turn 10 actually announced in a stream that this one minute long trailer does indeed have better ray tracing quality than the 5 minute long demo. Specifically they mentioned that replays, garage, photo mode, and more have ray trace global illumination"
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adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Maybe he reached out to them for comment and got that info separately ?
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
That's not what he stated. He says, "out of the blue Turn 10 actually announced in a stream that this one minute long trailer does indeed have better ray tracing quality than the 5 minute long demo. Specifically they mentioned that replays, garage, photo mode, and more have ray trace global illumination"
He also said that they mentioned, "that this one minute trailer is made up of shots with those replay mode graphics." They never stated anything about "replay mode graphics."
It's important that the context of these made-up statements is understood. He was going to claim when this video released that the 1-min trailer has different graphics fidelity, and use that demonstrate that T10 was being misleading, but much to his disappointment, T10 just came out and casually stated the 1-min trailer has those capabilities. They were transparent both about the method of capture of the 5-min gameplay demo, and the differences in the 1-min sizzle reel.
Again, continuing with the context of his statements, this was all supposed to lead in to the all-important PC RT concerns and bragging he wanted to pop off, "I'm also kind of worried about the pc version based upon the statement they mention RT global illumination is limited to replays photo mode etc, and is not on track like the ray trace reflections will be, but honestly there's no reason to limit RTGI to photo mode and replays on PC. PC is an infinitely scaling platform".
When making accusations and claims like this, it's important to be accurate and transparent. He is the one being misleading, while calling out T10 who were first to clarify the use of RT reflections in both videos and gameplay, RTGI in the 1-min sizzle reel, and the method of capture being done on PC and tested for matching fidelity on Series X for the 5-min video.
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Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
They only say that on the 1min replay trailer.
They dont state the resolution or platform its running on for the 5min gameplay demo.
Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
Dont worry, Alex's findings here suggest VRS or some other image reconstruction tech is in play here.
Replay modes will always require less resources then gameplay. Its always been the case.
Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
Great analysis by Alex.
The improvements shown here are impressive, Turn 10 are being smart here, implementing these increases in geometry, lighting quality, materials, textures and RT reflections all at 60fps while maintaining excellent image quality, is quite the achievement.
Turn 10 are wizards!
The improvements shown here are impressive, Turn 10 are being smart here, implementing these increases in geometry, lighting quality, materials, textures and RT reflections all at 60fps while maintaining excellent image quality, is quite the achievement.
Turn 10 are wizards!
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Stare-Bear
Banned
Possible but at what cost? Look at the trees and rocks shapeshifting 20 meters ahead of the player. I’d rather have a better drawdistance.
MidGenRefresh
*Refreshes biennially
It's a debug camera, of course there will be more pop-in when you're flying using debug camera.
PaintTinJr
Member
I don't follow FM news but the whole video seemed like the info was straight from the developer because - unless it was mentioned elsewhere - him stating they are using Forward+ rendering (technical paper on what it is from 2012: https://takahiroharada.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/forward_plus.pdf) isn't something you could spot just from looking unless it was a rendering solution you were using yourself because deferred or normal forward rendering was limiting you, and the video felt like it dovetailed perfectly with some of the technical comments I made in the other thread, highlighting why they were using a forward renderer in all likelihood to hit 60fps.
The confirmation of using a forward+ renderer throws in a few more pieces of information - indirectly - because using that renderer stipulates using a pre-render z-pass to calculate the depth (into the perspective projected frustum between near plane (0.0) and far plane (1.0)), which means these values(with the normal vector at each fragment/pixel) will get used for the reflection rays, and used for the shadow map comparisons tests, which sort of confirms Alex's fear that even on high-end PC the RT shadows and multi bounce reflections won't be possible - unless turn10 do multiple render path options.
In the forward+ render it tiles the framebuffer to workout light visibility to each tile (based on mix/max depth AFAIK) which would work as a 2nd optimisation path with the non-reflective RT pixels that can also use VRS.
It is the best informative video I've watched from Alex, so I expect the info to have been properly checked given that it felt like a turn 10 info to say the game will look great, but set your expectations inline with the rendering problem.
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CrustyBritches
Gold Member
.
Are people even watching the videos they’re commenting on?
At 2:49 timestamp…
They straight up said it in the 5-min video. “Forward+ lighting and physically-based lights”
Are people even watching the videos they’re commenting on?
At 2:49 timestamp…
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onesvenus
Member
That comes from the blog post that went up after the showcase
The All-New Forza Motorsport is the Most Technically Advanced Racing Game Ever Made
Discover the spectacle of racing like you’ve never seen it before in our detailed recap of everything the Forza Motorsport team shared at the Xbox & Bethesda Games Showcase.
forza.net
PaintTinJr
Member
I don't get to watch most of the videos and rely mostly on stuff making it into pictures and text which I still don't read everything, which is why I do tend to leave room in my comments for people like yourself to inform me whether I've missed something.
I'm interested in the game, as I'll probably get to try it with £1 sporadic gamepass sub on PC. The deformable cars with scratches and RT reflections has me very interested in how well this turns out, and how they achieve it on a technical level.
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
No worries. You seem really knowledgeable about this stuff and I enjoy reading your posts. Hopefully I didn’t come off rude, it wasn’t my intention.
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Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
Better yet, have BOTH options...but could 1440p + rt gi be possible? Isn't Gi the most expensive form of RT?
More modes are better . 3-4 different modes
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Yeah, having more options should be a no brainer, but GT7 didnt bother adding even RT reflections in a 1440p or 4kcb mode 60 fps mode so who knows what these devs are thinking.
Like Alex said, this needs to be a day one thing on PC at the very least. It's silly to leave it out on PC where GPUs are already 2x more powerful than the xsx. With mid gen consoles almost a guarantee in a couple of years, it would be a mistake to leave it out from a 2023 release.
Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
Its using some VRS or other solutions where background and foreground assets are different resolutions. So its likely not a true native 4k in the gameplay.
But these consoles have limits, metro exodus has RTGi but it does not have RT reflections and its using DRS which fluctuates quite significantly at times.
Games from the best AAA devs are not all going to have ,RT REFLECTIONS + RT Gi, 60fps, 1440p, more geometry and other advances.
Also I gotta say resolution is a poor metric for quality these days. Just look at the recent performance mode update for forbidden west, before there were pretty noticable iQ issues, but they have be mostly iradicated post patch, even though the native resolution has remained unchanged.
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Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
Er... Its been confirmed straight from the devs, this isnt even a question at this point.
Some people want to though
Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
Want to what?
Neo_game
Member
So the tech demo was running dynamic resolution, he said some scenes were in 1080P and some in 4K. He is also not sure about what kind RT is being used. He says some are shiny some mirror like and some have no reflection. Trailer videos pretty much always look better so there was no surprise there.
Debate/ask the question despite the devs saying differently
Negotiator101
Member
It's obviously VRS in use, that's why parts of the image are lower resolution than others, the whole image doesn't go to 1080p. The RT in game is a lower quality than in replays as what T10 have said.
PaintTinJr
Member
Even with a 2x performance boost and dedicated RT cores on top I still believe the workload to add RT shadows and multi-bounce RT reflections above an beyond what they are targeting at 60fps is at least 2 fold work more than the performance difference between a XsX and RTX 3090. So it is a lot of work with no one as yet to use it. By contrast the Forward+ renderer will be a very good fit IMO to scale down the XsX visuals to the XsS, especially as it is a solution that is entirely GPU contained according to the technical paper.
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akaFullmetal
Member
Tall order but if they pull it off, then amazing. However, we'll need to see it on Xbox 1st.
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
In Cold Blood
Banned
Huh? Are replays in the game? Yes. It's not misleading to say that it's in game when replays are actually in the game.
Celcius
°Temp. member
It’s misleading when most people think that in-game means during a race. There’s a difference between technically correct and misleading.
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In Cold Blood
Banned
It's pretty obvious from the footage that it was a replay. If someone doesn't know the difference between replays and actual racing then I'm not sure what to tell them.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
You mean you don't race in these games with a camera like this ?
just kidding guys.
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CamHostage
Member
Not that I know of? Maybe somebody who has worked with game engines would say otherwise, but I don't think there's generally huge resource pools freed up when a game is made for next-gen "from scratch" and exclusively. There are other advantages, but it doesn't seem to make hard things easier, it instead makes even-harder things reachable.
There was a time where elite-level developers would go to the metal and code their games specifically for the unique prospects of a console and get amazing results (resulting often in the best-looking games in the PS1/PS2 era also having the most impressive framerate performance,) but that wasn't usually those coders mastering some part of the console and all the sudden everything else is easy and you've got tons of headroom to do whatever you want. And for sure there are some techniques which reinvent the way things are done and unify some very complex challenges, but there's still a cost to those techniques and often they're more consuming than previous methods (or you're already dealing with such a change of scale in a gen upgrade that you're not saving any pennies that aren't already spent on your tab.) Developers for example are talking about the excitement of raytracing and dynamic GI solutions like Lumen to get rid of the need of baked lightmaps, but that's been on the developer's side as far as making things easier and potentially more naturalistic; for gamers however, Lumen's high-demand results in diminished framerate. Probably there are some developments which are just flat-out win-wins for a game project, and possibly those win-win developments come from rewriting a routine or subsystem exclusively for the capabilities of next-generation hardware*, but I think generally next-gen is a more-money-more-problems situation rather than a solution for all the worries.
(*Having a SSD you can depend on to have assets you threw out to make room rapidly available again when you need them is one of the biggest win-win opportunities for Xbox Series X|S, and so that may be one of the areas where cutting away Xbox One allowed Turn 10 a true win-win for the project scope. So if you're looking for extra optimizations, SSD is a heck of an optimizer. That said, there's also got to be the PC version, which will be cross-play and so must match the engine in general, so unless the PC version's minimum specs are a SSD with DirectStorage, which MAY be standard by 2023 but who knows yet, Forza Motorsport would still have to contend with circumstances beyond its two consoles.)
Raytracing is raytracing. It's heavy. There's ways to get the most out of what you're allotting for (and nobody is quite sure yet how Forza is getting these graphics at this framerate with these effects used, that'll be fascinating to see breakdowns of where they compromised or how they achieved such efficiency, or to check out other games in 2023+ from MS to see if Turn 10 sets a new pace that others can follow from their papers,) but RT is heavy on any platform that you try to throw its rays at. I don't see that it would to come in any lighter on Xbox Series X|S simply from cutting the anchor of Xbox One out?
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Racing games have got to be the numero-uno genre for the biggest 180 in gaming.You mean you don't race in these games with a camera like this ?
just kidding guys.
Racing fans love staring at minute details like nuts and bolts during replays and photo mode. But playing the game, it's likely one of these main camera angles: cockpit view or classic third person behind the car. Either view you wont see anything in detail.
The amount of wasted resources racing devs have to put into things you can only see in replay/photo mode is insane.
You'd think the priority would be trees, track, buildings etc.... since you see that stuff all the time while racing.
Boss Mog
Member
Honestly the Pro consoles can't come soon enough. The current ones just can't cut it in terms of RT performance. RDNA3 is supposed to improve RT performance quite a bit over RDNA2. I tried playing RE2 on PS5 the other day and the game looks so much better with RT on but the game could no longer maintain a solid 60fps, the framerate was all over the place in scenes with lots of RT and my current TV isn't VRR capable.
It's good to see MS ditch the old XB1 for this game. The game seems ambitious visually, hopefully like others have said it won't come at the expense of other important stuff and hopefully they'll give us the option to disable RT on console to get native 4K or other boosts. Personally I prefer Forza Motosport to Gran Turismo so this is the racing game I've been anticipating the most since the gen started.
It's good to see MS ditch the old XB1 for this game. The game seems ambitious visually, hopefully like others have said it won't come at the expense of other important stuff and hopefully they'll give us the option to disable RT on console to get native 4K or other boosts. Personally I prefer Forza Motosport to Gran Turismo so this is the racing game I've been anticipating the most since the gen started.
93xfan
Banned
This is a terrible time for releasing a mid gen console. On the bright side, what was shown looked fantastic to me. I don’t need perfection in console graphics. We’re at a point where things already look very nice.
Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
Then u will probably find them crappy cause they aren't doing avatar way of water visuals
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Inviusx
Member
Turn 10 didn't demonstrate why RT reflections while racing is important when weighed against the demand on the hardware. IMHO GT7 made the right call by restricting all those features to photomode and replays as that's when you really want to marvel at the car models in all their glory.
The entire demo minus a few chase cam sequences was shot from the perspective of a replay/photomode camera anyway...
The entire demo minus a few chase cam sequences was shot from the perspective of a replay/photomode camera anyway...
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Boss Mog
Member
Pandemic? Supply chain issues? There's no bad time. If they make them, they will sell out period. A lot of people want more powerful consoles whether others like it or not.
ShirAhava
Plays with kids toys, in the adult gaming world
On paper the SX is but in reality
More like 2060 Super/2070 in side by side real world performance testing and not just raw numbers
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Yes Polyphony is much smarter , why would you want Ray-tracing in-game making it much easier for artists to create content and make a game more physically correct while playing for gamers. Why would anyone want that … we can just play looney tunes racers .
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CrustyBritches
Gold Member
FM8 will have rock-solid 60fps. Might be using VRS 2 and possibly dynamic res, but it looks sufficiently high resolution.
Depends on the game. For FH5, Alex said it was approximately 2070 Super/2080 performance.
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
They managed 60 fps on spider man with raytraced reflections and it looked awesome.
I know it was a cross gen game and basically ps4 code but still, I think with hard work devs should be able to handle next gen with those reflections. Especially someone like turn 10. If they pull it off I'll be blown away and seriously impressed.
Finally some true next gen shit!
I know it was a cross gen game and basically ps4 code but still, I think with hard work devs should be able to handle next gen with those reflections. Especially someone like turn 10. If they pull it off I'll be blown away and seriously impressed.
Finally some true next gen shit!
Riky
$MSFT
"Ray tracing is here. It’s on track and most importantly, it’s real-time gameplay,” he said during a live stream. “I really want to make that clear: when we say ‘on track’, it doesn’t mean it’s only in replays or it’s only in Photo Mode on track and we’re just being funny with words."
“We’re not trying to mislead you here. When you’re racing and when you are playing the game, ray tracing is on. We want to be really clear about that"
It's in game RT.
Reflections, as Ray-tracing can be used for numerous effects and solutions.