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Forza Motorsport was revealed in two trailers this week, so Alex Battaglia took a fine-tooth comb to the provided footage to see what he could learn. How could Turn 10 achieve 4K 60fps with ray tracing on PC and Series X - and what else has changed since Forza Motorsport 7?

 

[adamsapple]

Summary:

- "Regardless of platform, 4K/60 FPS with RT is a very tall order"
- DF confirmed the footage shown was running on PC but T10 confirmed the same visual quality runs on SX as well.
- For comparison GT limits RT to non racing segments at 30 FPS.
- F1 game with RT reflections shown which is very GPU heavy.
- DF thinks T10 are not reliant on MSAA like before, and possibly looking at other forms of AA that are less resource intensive.
- DF also sees some geometry lesser than 4K but others at 4K. DF thinks they're using some form reconstruction or variable rate shading.
- Forward Plus Lighting being used can benefit from VRS.

- DF cites and observes T10 commentary in a recent live stream that RT reflection quality is higher in replay modes along with RTGI, while "in-game" while racing, the RT reflection quality is lower than replays.
- Alex hopes they don't limit RTGI on PC's for just replays like console for people who have the GPUs to handle it.
- DF notes the lighting and time of day changes at 60 FPS would not have been possible on last gen hardware as it is here.
- Off-track elements like foliage and track side detail is significantly better than FM7. Better shading, lighting, material variation etc.
- The detail difference is "Stark".

- DF wonders if there will be a difference on the consoles, especially Series S. They are interested in seeing more of the game.

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

I agree with him about replay bullshots but it’s been happening in the genre for so long now.

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

Does the game have weather?

 

[Bernd Lauert]

The fact that they made several compromises on the visuals in the demo means that they are indeed trying to get it to run on an XSX like that. Otherwise they'd just max everything out and call it a day.

 

[Celcius]

Oof, they say "all in-game 4k footage" but they don't mean in-race, they mean in-replay. This plus the slip up about saying the demo was running on hardware that it wasn't just kinda comes across as MS being misleading.

 

[SlimySnake]

4k 60 fps is a gigantic waste of gpu power especially since it is coming at the expense of rtgi during gameplay.

There shouldn’t be a difference between replay mode and gameplay mode on next Gen consoles especially when the consoles are powerful enough to run at 4k 60 fps with rt reflections. Just reduce the resolution to 1440p and add RTGI and best quality car models during gameplay. 1440p on a 4k screen looks just fine.

 

[adamsapple]

Oof, they say "all in-game 4k footage" but they don't mean in-race, they mean in-replay. This plus the slip up about saying the demo was running on hardware that it wasn't just kinda comes across as MS being misleading.

Replay modes are in game as well tho, and if you think this is the only racing franchise that has done that, you're in for a surprise.

 

[ToadMan]

I hope supporting the Xsex and S hardware doesn’t mean the PC will be held back.

Scaling is one thing, but the Xsex has about ~15% of the theoretical performance next year’s GPUs will have. That’s beyond a simple graphics scale slider to overcome.

 

[adamsapple]

I hope supporting the Xsex and S hardware doesn’t mean the PC will be held back.

Scaling is one thing, but the Xsex has about ~15% of the theoretical performance next year’s GPUs will have. That’s beyond a simple graphics scale slider to overcome.

The assets and elements have to be authored to console spec, so after a point it'll just be nothing but wasted overhead on next year's GPUs.

That'll always be the case unless a game is specially being created for those newer GPU specs.

 

[Md Ray]

Disappointed they didn't talk about the all-new damage simulation system or the "deep simulation of driving physics" system which IMO should also be one of the talking points for a tech analysis channel like DF. Instead, they just chose to talk about the same ol' boring ray tracing stuff.

Oh, Craig of War there is also seemingly no 120fps mode w/ ray tracing like you were hoping for (lol). Confirmed by the fact that they're using VRS or some sort of reconstruction technique at 4K to even achieve 60fps.
120fps should be possible without RT at lower rendering res though.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Native? Short answer? No.

But I would like to be proven wrong.

 

[winjer]

I hope supporting the Xsex and S hardware doesn’t mean the PC will be held back.

Scaling is one thing, but the Xsex has about ~15% of the theoretical performance next year’s GPUs will have. That’s beyond a simple graphics scale slider to overcome.

RT can be very heavy, the more effects are added. The more bounces per ray. The more ray per pixel, etc.
And of course, PC is not about running a game at just 30 or 60 fps. A large amount of gamers have 120hz monitors or higher. Much higher.

 

[ParaSeoul]

I hope supporting the Xsex and S hardware doesn’t mean the PC will be held back.

Scaling is one thing, but the Xsex has about ~15% of the theoretical performance next year’s GPUs will have. That’s beyond a simple graphics scale slider to overcome.

PCs have never been efficient enough to use all their performance.

 

[ParaSeoul]

Native? Short answer? No.

But I would like to be proven wrong.

Its not cross gen right? Wondering if theres a lot of extra optimisations they can do without having to wonder how its going to work on last gen.

 

[RoboFu]

I hope it’s not native 4k. 1440 with FSR would be great. But I’d rather they didn’t spend performance on hitting 4K

 

[Md Ray]

Its not cross gen right? Wondering if theres a lot of extra optimisations they can do without having to wonder how its going to work on last gen.

It's Series consoles and PC only.

 

[mansoor1980]

any mention of the disgusting tree LOD pop in?

 

[ShakenG]

I applaud them for the use of Photogrammetry, i really like it general but they pull if off well.
Its something id love to see in the GT series... or better implemented if it is already.

The cone shader is a little touch but looks great even if you arent staring at it while racing.

I did notice a lot of popin on the trees and hope it gets the same criticism as GT. Especially if its PC footage.

 

[StateofMajora]

I hope PC has full rt options. I'm really excited for next gen Forza

 

[Bernd Lauert]

I hope we can turn off RT on consoles in favor of resolution. I really don't need RT reflections if I'm being honest.

 

[Imtjnotu]

It's a tall stretch at best but I am hoping it can. Atleast give frs 2.0 at 1440

 

[DeepEnigma]

I hope we can turn off RT on consoles in favor of resolution. I really don't need RT reflections if I'm being honest.

Agreed. It is something you notice way more in replays than you do while racing.

You are not going to tell the difference in the middle of an intense track race if they are 100% accurate RT or just the old school solutions.

 

[Plantoid]

AMD fsr 2.0 + vrs #believe

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

I want 3 options..
1440p FSR to 4K@120hz
1440p/RT FSR to 4K@60hz
4K/60hz

 

[Markio128]

As long as the gameplay is great, does the RT in game really matter? All this emphasis on the graphics engine is disappointing to me (though not surprising based on MS’s ’anything you can do’ mentality) because I’d rather learn about the career mode, the tracks and cars.

 

[Genx3]

People saying they don't want T10 to waste resources on 4K have to remember this game will be using VRS which means the parts of the scene that you pay most attention to will be 4K but the parts you are not likely to be staring at will drop down the resolution to keep up performance. Basically a middle ground between Native 4K and a lower resolution such as 1440P.

 

[Genx3]

As long as the gameplay is great, does the RT in game really matter? All this emphasis on the graphics engine is disappointing to me (though not surprising based on MS’s ’anything you can do’ mentality) because I’d rather learn about the career mode, the tracks and cars.

The crash physics as well as tire physics are going to another level as well.
Should be the biggest jump from Forza MS to the next Forza MS in a while.

If the graphics weren't getting revamped everyone and their mothers would be complaining.

 

[nkarafo]

All i want is a game that isn't full of jank, like 7 was.

- Hideous 2D cardboard trees (even at the highest PC graphical settings).
- Extremely laggy and buggy menus.
- Wheels don't turn in replays.
- Sometimes you control the headlights, other times you don't.

And other similar stupid shit that i don't recall, the above were the ones that annoyed me the most.

Do the basic stuff right first and then carry on with the cherry on top.

 

[skneogaf]

Great video by Alex, the few toxic neogaf members that hate him surely have to admit he makes good content.

I hope turn 10 allows all graphical effects to be allowed to be on in races on pc, the game will look unbelievable if they do.

I hate that consoles hold back pc gaming so much.

Its why cyberpunk 2077 has to be praised as that game didn't give a fuck.

 

[assurdum]

Summary:

- "Regardless of platform, 4K/60 FPS with RT is a very tall order"
- DF confirmed the footage shown was running on PC but T10 confirmed the same visual quality runs on SX as well.
- For comparison GT limits RT to non racing segments at 30 FPS.
- F1 game with RT reflections shown which is very GPU heavy.
- DF thinks T10 are not reliant on MSAA like before, and possibly looking at other forms of AA that are less resource intensive.
- DF also sees some geometry lesser than 4K but others at 4K. DF thinks they're using some form reconstruction or variable rate shading.
- Forward Plus Lighting being used can benefit from VRS.

- DF cites and observes T10 commentary in a recent live stream that RT reflection quality is higher in replay modes along with RTGI, while "in-game" while racing, the RT reflection quality is lower than replays.
- Alex hopes they don't limit RTGI on PC's for just replays like console for people who have the GPUs to handle it.
- DF notes the lighting and time of day changes at 60 FPS would not have been possible on last gen hardware as it is here.
- Off-track elements like foliage and track side detail is significantly better than FM7. Better shading, lighting, material variation etc.
- The detail difference is "Stark".

- DF wonders if there will be a difference on the consoles, especially Series S. They are interested in seeing more of the game.

Same visual quality of the pc and a couple of rows later we already talking of lower resolution reflections than replay. DRS with 1080p as minimum, I call it. And don't get me wrong I'm not saying the final result it won't be impressive tech wise but I would be very carefully about the same visual quality of the pc, stated on XSX by the company.

 

[John Wick]

I hope supporting the Xsex and S hardware doesn’t mean the PC will be held back.

Scaling is one thing, but the Xsex has about ~15% of the theoretical performance next year’s GPUs will have. That’s beyond a simple graphics scale slider to overcome.

Your joking aren't you mate? There are some here claiming there will be no difference between the XSX version and a maxed out PC. Same as there are no differences between FH5 on XSX and PC

 

[Senua]

I hope turn 10 all all graphical effects to be allowed to be on in races on pc, the game will look unbelievable if they do.

.

Doubt they will, don't wana show up the "BEAST"

 

[adamsapple]

Same visual quality of the pc and a couple of rows later we already talking of lower resolution reflections than replay. DRS with 1080p as minimum, I call it. And don't get me wrong I'm not saying the final result it won't be impressive tech wise but I would be very carefully about the same visual quality of the pc, stated on XSX by the company.

The lower RT reflections quality during race compared to replay mode is also from the pc, that's not from the Xbox version. It will be the same on both that the replays will have a higher quality of effects.

Don't make it into an issue it isn't.

 

[assurdum]

The lower RT reflections quality during race compared to replay mode is also from the pc, that's not from the Xbox version. It will be the same on both that the replace will have a higher quality of effects.

Don't make it into an issue it isn't.

Did you ever seen the quality difference between AMD and Nvidia in raytracing reflections ? The only way to do that, it's cutbacks intentionally the pc version. And I don't meant lower resolution in gameplay as an issue. It's just ridiculous put unrealistically expectations to the people knowing the hardware specs.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

3D graphics(especially real-time) are about 'trickery'. People arguing about them, are fricking annoying.

 

[Markio128]

The crash physics as well as tire physics are going to another level as well.
Should be the biggest jump from Forza MS to the next Forza MS in a while.

If the graphics weren't getting revamped everyone and their mothers would be complaining.

Yeah, sounds great on paper and you can never have too many great racing games, imho. Visuals should always be the icing on the cake though.

 

[DenchDeckard]

Its really going to backfire on turn 10 if they can't deliver and incredible looking experience on series x at 60 fps in game In race with raytracing.

I hope they weren't pulling any bullshit.

My racing wheel is ready and my main platform is xbox so don't let me down turn 10 after these lofty statements.

 

[Certinty]

4K RT 60FPS with dynamic time of day and weather with a huge amount of cars per race?

No chance unless it looks like a PS3 game graphically.

 

[adamsapple]

4K RT 60FPS with dynamic time of day and weather with a huge amount of cars per race?

No chance unless it looks like a PS3 game graphically.

Sensible chuckle.

 

[transformer]

4K RT 60FPS with dynamic time of day and weather with a huge amount of cars per race?

No chance unless it looks like a PS3 game graphically.

Well that’s what Turn 10 is saying. I’ll believe them as they always pull through. I remember many saying 1080p/60 was impossible on Xbox one, yet Turn 10 did it. 4K/60 wasn’t possible on Xbox one x, yet they did it. I see no reason why they would just now decide to lie about performance on a Forza game,

 

[Markio128]

Sensible chuckle.

Nobody can knock your confidence, that’s for sure
Personally, I think something is going to have to give; native 4K with RT at 60fps, during gameplay? I’ll keep my fingers crossed for you.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Arent next gen consoles supposed to be somewhere around the 2080 GPU range?

For PCs, what kind of gpu do you need for a full budget game at 4k/60 with full RT? Can a 3000-class gpu do it?

 

[adamsapple]

Nobody can knock your confidence, that’s for sure
Personally, I think something is going to have to give; native 4K with RT at 60fps, during gameplay? I’ll keep my fingers crossed for you.

Probably DRS or using things like VRS and / or image reconstruction.

But then again Turn 10 we're probably the one studio who were pushing native 1080p 60 FPS on the crappy XBO hardware as well, they're damn good at optimizing.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Summary:

- "Regardless of platform, 4K/60 FPS with RT is a very tall order"
- DF confirmed the footage shown was running on PC but T10 confirmed the same visual quality runs on SX as well.
- For comparison GT limits RT to non racing segments at 30 FPS.
- F1 game with RT reflections shown which is very GPU heavy.
- DF thinks T10 are not reliant on MSAA like before, and possibly looking at other forms of AA that are less resource intensive.
- DF also sees some geometry lesser than 4K but others at 4K. DF thinks they're using some form reconstruction or variable rate shading.
- Forward Plus Lighting being used can benefit from VRS.

- DF cites and observes T10 commentary in a recent live stream that RT reflection quality is higher in replay modes along with RTGI, while "in-game" while racing, the RT reflection quality is lower than replays.
- Alex hopes they don't limit RTGI on PC's for just replays like console for people who have the GPUs to handle it.
- DF notes the lighting and time of day changes at 60 FPS would not have been possible on last gen hardware as it is here.
- Off-track elements like foliage and track side detail is significantly better than FM7. Better shading, lighting, material variation etc.
- The detail difference is "Stark".

- DF wonders if there will be a difference on the consoles, especially Series S. They are interested in seeing more of the game.

I think it's also been confirmed that on Xbox Series X the RT is just for reflections, not shadows and not GI. PC version might be able to do all of that though since you have beefier CPUs and GPUs to use.

Well that’s what Turn 10 is saying. I’ll believe them as they always pull through. I remember many saying 1080p/60 was impossible on Xbox one, yet Turn 10 did it. 4K/60 wasn’t possible on Xbox one x, yet they did it. I see no reason why they would just now decide to lie about performance on a Forza game,

Turn 10 are generally very good when it comes to Xbox optimizations. However also keep in mind these are track racers; that's an easier genre to hit high resolutions and 60 FPS in than massive open-world RPGs or semi open-world action/adventure games, where you have a lot more logic going on generally speaking.

They are increasing the detail in the physics simulation for this new entry though, which will be the most exciting part of the game honestly. Or at least one of them.

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

4K RT 60FPS with dynamic time of day and weather with a huge amount of cars per race?

No chance unless it looks like a PS3 game graphically.

Depends on if it's programmed for current gen only or not.

 

[DenchDeckard]

I couldn't care about native 4k with raytracing. Make it 1440p if you need to, ir some special drs. Just deliver true next gen experience with raytracing at a 60 fps lock and I am more than impressed.

 

[Turk1993]

4k 60 fps is a gigabyte waste of gpu power especially since it is coming at the expense of rtgi during gameplay.

There shouldn’t be a difference between replay mode and gameplay mode on next Gen consoles especially when the consoles are powerful enough to run at 4k 60 fps with rt reflections. Just reduce the resolution to 1440p and add RTGI and best quality car models during gameplay. 1440p on a 4k screen looks just fine.

I hope we can turn off RT on consoles in favor of resolution. I really don't need RT reflections if I'm being honest.

 

[Markio128]

Probably DRS or using things like VRS and / or image reconstruction.

But then again Turn 10 we're probably the one studio who were pushing native 1080p 60 FPS on the crappy XBO hardware as well, they're damn good at optimizing.

I don’t doubt their technical ability, but by all accounts, decent RT can have a massive affect on performance. Even on GT7 replays, it can be difficult to notice the RT (unless taking screen shots), so I personally can’t see the point during gameplay. I’ll be more inclined (if the option is there) to play FM8 at native 4K at 60fps.

 

[Mr Moose]

Arent next gen consoles supposed to be somewhere around the 2080 GPU range?

For PCs, what kind of gpu do you need for a full budget game at 4k/60 with full RT? Can a 3000-class gpu do it?

Without RT, somewhere near there.