ethomaz
Banned
Is the feat not impressive? You can play the game already you know.
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DF: Returnal: Housemarque Pushes PlayStation 5 HARD - With Spectacular Results
- Thread starter SLB1904
- Start date
Red-Town
Member
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Why are FUDing so hard against it?
Zoro7
Banned
This is why people mock you and laugh at you. Continue to give us entertainment.
ethomaz
Banned
I don't remember any temporal reconstruction algorithm doing scaling
Scaling algorithms basically stretch the imagine creating guessed pixels to complete it.
Temporal reconstruction algorithms just complete a image with actual render data from a old image.
The first case it is create approximated pixels to complete the image.
The second case it used pixels already rendered to complete the image.
Temporal reconstruction results in a fully native rendered image... if you do pixels count you a 4k reconstructed image is a full native 4k image while the upscalling not.
But how do we know the image generated by the temporal reconstruction is different from a native 4k render? Well there are tricks and tips to look for common artifacts generated by the temporal reconstruction that doesn't show on native render.
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VFXVeteran
Banned
Graphically to me means loading down the GPU with more things to do. Memory is a non-issue. I'm not talking about "prettier" games than R&C for example. Which I think you are trying to say. The GPU has it's limits and we are already seeing it. No amount of optimization is going to push the GPU to levels rivaling a RTX3090/6900XT (which are also too slow for implementing full on RT @ native 4k/60FPS).
SLB1904
Banned
ratchet is literally the best-looking game we have ever seen... on weak hardware... that doesn't make sense.
hroerekr
Member
The resulting difference in IQ is noticeable. The DF technical analysis is just pointing out the reason.
If you can't see the difference, that's good for you. Jut don't assume others are on the same page.
VFXVeteran
Banned
R&C is the best looking game ever to you. It's a completely subjective comment. It's got a great artistic vibe with excellent presentation. But it's not a game representative of heavy duty GPU algorithms that only the PS5 can do. Let's keep it real gents!
SLB1904
Banned
what game looks better than ratchet?
Ok and where does it says what process item the chip have? Please share with me the info so i can learn.
VFXVeteran
Banned
What kind of question is that man? What I like might not be what you like. It's a loaded question for warring. No thanks.
FrankWza
Member
He’s still in mourning over the MLB showing the true difference between consoles.
DonJuanSchlong
Banned
Why must you go down the console warrior route? You like the art direction of R&C, I prefer better looking games from a objective point of view. Like games that are doing the full slew of raytracing, all the bells and whistles included, and then some. That shouldn't affect you and your enjoyment of the game. Not sure why you guys always stoop down to such a low level like this.
And to answer your question, there are plenty of better looking games, especially once you factor in full raytracing, higher res, much better framerates. But again, that would be going off topic.
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assurdum
Banned
You already said that but still I don't understand what's the point to defend the post as I have quoted.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Bro, making comments like the typical PCMR schtick that several in here are doing, like "weak hardware," "bottlenecked before they came out," etc., whether true or not, is every bit "console warring" and we all know it.
It's elitist cunt shit designed to antagonize console gamers, real talk. And my main platform is PC again, but I can spot the "talking down to" someone in here is known for and has a rep with.
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assurdum
Banned
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VFXVeteran
Banned
Then stop acting like it will. It's not the end of the world if these companies have already reached max capabilities of the PS5 in rendering.
SLB1904
Banned
James Sawyer Ford
Member
blows away CP2077
DonJuanSchlong
Banned
Only problem is, I'm not doing any of that, regardless that it's true. You can't sit up here and claim x,y,z game is the best looking game ever, without subjective written across your forehead. Now if you were to ask if R&C implements graphical tech that hasn't been done before/not available in other games, then I would completely understand.
An opinion should never be upheld as a factual statement.
Because you may or may not like something, doesn't make it wrong, false, or that someone is talking down about it. Come on man, your better than this.
VFXVeteran
Banned
Man. why do you get so triggered by the comments? You are being a hypocrite. You are doing exactly what I was doing with the R&C = Pixar bullshit. A mod told me to "cope" and everyone laughed. Now you can't cope with the facts?
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assurdum
Banned
Don't say bullshit for the fuck sake. Your post always touch the limits of the trolling and it's quite annoying from a person who define himself a veteran of the industry. Housemark is still a modest company, doesn't have even the resource to compete to other AAA and we are at the start of the generation, use their game as universal benchmark is quite unfair. But you are not new to spit out exaggerated provocation when you talk about console performance.
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Dream-Knife
Banned
"At its heart, Returnal operates at a relatively low internal resolution, then uses a couple of techniques to boost the quality of the output. This starts with temporal reconstruction to 1440p, followed by a checkerboarding pass to deliver a 2160p output."
AMD is supposed to have something, but they have yet to release it. They're saying it will come to consoles when it it comes to GPUs.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
I am not talking about that, and I agree with you the majority of the time on here. I am talking about this example below...
He knows what he is doing when he does it, but then cries victim.
I'm not a victim and never will pretend to be one in the great gaming war.
SLB1904
Banned
but i thought you said is subjective. which is which?
VFXVeteran
Banned
Oh I back up every bit of what I say. I *always* prefix an opinion that I make with "personally I". If I don't say that, then either you find a counter fact on the internet or accept what I'm saying is fact. I'm very very careful about that. If Returnal could do everything it's doing now @ native 4k, it would have. The GPU power just isn't there. Still a beautiful game though.
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I always see that behavior with the PCMR schtick. Talking down on consoles, comments ¨weak hardware before they came out¨ that´s is always the case. Totally agree with this.
Werewolfgrandma
Banned
From the articleI don't remember any temporal reconstruction algorithm doing scaling
Scaling algorithms basically stretch the imagine creating guessed pixels to complete it.
Temporal reconstruction algorithms just complete a image with actual render data from a old image.
The first case it is create approximated pixels to complete the image.
The second case it used pixels already rendered to complete the image.
Temporal reconstruction results in a fully native rendered image... if you do pixels count you a 4k reconstructed image is a full native 4k image while the upscalling not.
But how do we know the image generated by the temporal reconstruction is different from a native 4k render? Well there are tricks and tips to look for common artifacts generated by the temporal reconstruction that doesn't show on native render.
"The end result is a presentation that looks better than the native 1080p pixel counts that tend to emerge from untreated geometry, but this can't really pass as a full-blooded 4K presentation, dynamic or otherwise - especially on certain textures with high specularity, such as wet ground and water surfaces, where you can sometimes see an obvious moire pattern. Image quality in general can sometimes look a little fuzzy or grainy in motion too, owing to the TAA upscaling and checkerboarding."
I'm not knocking the game. You 2 are just in a semantics war with me but you are both wrong so I can't give up haha.
Mister Wolf
Gold Member
When I look at R&C now all I see is a whole bunch of lights flying around everywhere that don't behave like lights. Weapons, enemies, npcs, environments, etc. Thanks Metro Exodus.
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VFXVeteran
Banned
It's not elitist though and not meant to demean the consoles. Nvidia/AMD pushed out an entire generation ahead of the next-gen consoles and those cards are struggling at native 4k. These comments (at least not mine) aren't meant to stir the bees nest. It's to encourage people to accept limitations so expectations won't be through the roof.
Let's get back on topic though. Returnal...
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Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Most of the times they do not read like this at all… more like PCMR gloating.
VFXVeteran
Banned
I get that. But most of the time, for me at least, it's to see the facts admist the console gloating.
DonJuanSchlong
Banned
Yeah, we generally agree on most stuff. But I kinda have to agree with him here. I don't have the experience that he has, but he definitely knows more than most people on here when it comes to graphics pipeline. A game can be a nice technical feat, like CP2077 for example. Big open world, with amazing lighting, textures, effects, etc. But the game kinda fell flat on it's face because of the bugs, gameplay, etc.I am not talking about that, and I agree with you the majority of the time on here. I am talking about this example below...
He knows what he is doing when he does it, but then cries victim.
I'm not a victim and never will pretend to be one in the great gaming war.
R&C looks gorgeous, but it still is 30fps w/ limited RT, etc. Subjectively, it can be the best looking game to some, but objectively, it's not doing much compared to CP2077. So we'll be at the point of splitting hairs on whether we are talking subjectively (opinionated), or objectively (factually).
I think everyone should take a moment to step away from the keyboards, and think to themselves: "What if x,y,z game that I'm constantly shilling for, were on Xbox or PC instead, would I still be shilling for no shillings?" If people can admit these things, we would be in a much better place on GAF.
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Imru’ al-Qays
Member
Frankly resolution is well past the point of diminishing returns. The average person can barely tell the difference between 1080p and 4k, much less checkerboarded 4k vs true 4k. Housemarque made the right call to cut corners on resolution in order to focus on other elements.
SLB1904
Banned
sony owns Santa Monica and naughty dog there is no limits for my expectations
assurdum
Banned
When ever I said that? You continually push the argumentation to the extreme to have the point and you are quite wrong many times in your "catch" as us common mortal. You can't use a game at the start of the generation as benchmark of the console limits. It's completely wrong and incorrect for many technical reasons. I'd like to see you spit out this nonsense in the face off Matt ex engineer of the ps5 just to see how reverse your argumentations as an acrobat but obviously you use such argumentations in a forum like this because it's quite easy prevaricate when most of the people can't have a similar conversation for their limited knowledge.
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OK. So do you think if Returnal 2 if they make it some day. It will run less 1080p internal resolution if they upgrade the graphics or push the graphics more? If it´s struggling right now? IDK maybe 900p or 720 internal resolution? Because well if they can´t push the GPU and if it´s struggling right now... that´s the obvious think to happen no?
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
You don't need to be the messiah for PCMR all the damned time. People are going to do what they do, and your approach won't change minds.
ethomaz
Banned
Because these are two different concepts.
TAA can be applied after you upscalled the image or TAA can be used in a reconstruction of the image.
Upscaling is different from reconstruction.
Upscaling created pixels that doesn't exists.
Temporal reconstruction use pixels already created.
You can use AI upscaling for reconstruction too... but that is another case and don't use temporal frames... aka DLSS.
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Umbasaborne
Banned
Why cant the ps5 handle this game at a higher res? It doesnt seem super demanding at a glance
Sorry, but this running at 1080p60 after what we saw of Ratchet last night, almost certainly running at least at 1440p30 plus RT reflections, is a bit of a pisstake, whichever way you cut it.
I know Insomniac are wizards, but their game looks a good generation better than this. That's surely not the best result, regardless of the final IQ (which DF even said wasn't that great anyway, remember).
Even if 1080p was the most efficient resolution in terms of other resources, you'd expect to see that return much better overall graphics than this.
I know Insomniac are wizards, but their game looks a good generation better than this. That's surely not the best result, regardless of the final IQ (which DF even said wasn't that great anyway, remember).
Even if 1080p was the most efficient resolution in terms of other resources, you'd expect to see that return much better overall graphics than this.
assurdum
Banned
Raytracing.
Well from what other have said the GPU is struggling to run it at a higher res and because it have RT 60fps.
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Again, I am not talking about games in this instance.
DonJuanSchlong
Banned
When the image is reconstructed, would the end result be at the same resolution as initially? Or would it increase in resolution? If it becomes a higher resolution image afterwards, would that not be considered upscaled from prior resolution?
Spokker
Member
Every developer has to make the right choices for their specific game. Returnal's gameplay style absolutely demands 60 frames per second.
But there is something to be said for 4K. It is a very noticeable a tangible upgrade especially for those who sit closer to the TV and enjoy the details washing over them. Putting a clean 4K image (or close to it) on the screen gives me a kind of glass window effect, where it's like looking through a window that has been freshly Windexed. Hard to describe. I get this feeling moreso with 4K Dolby Vision movies, but some games that run at high resolutions get close.
Eliciel
Member
Welcome to hell, don't worry, you'll get used to it over time
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VFXVeteran
Banned
As a programmer, you can find out the limits on a GPU very quickly. I wrote a small OpenGL renderer to test the feasiblity of realtime lighting in a film production workflow. I took one asset - Shaggy from the Scooby Doo movie - and loaded all the textures (UDIM specs) on the character. It was well over 10 4k texture maps. The GPU crashed due to running out of memory. I quickly abandoned the effort.
If it was struggling with 1 asset and textures for that asset, no amount of optimization was going to have me render an entire scene (even if rasterized) of these characters.
I said all of that to say these devs aren't dumb. The PS5 architecture and API is very similar to the PS4. Yea, they may need some experience with ray-tracing as all these devs spent their lives around rasterization. But if we look at the facts (i.e. even the RTX 3090 can't do full on RT without DLSS), it's not a knock on consoles to assume they won't either for the entire generation.
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ethomaz
Banned
You can call that but the concept of upscaling is to create pixels to fill the game.
In the temporal reconstruction it is using pixels from previous frames... all pixels were rendered by the GPU.
Upscaling give you a image that is scaled up and not native.
Temporal retroconstruction gives you a native image.
The famous checkboard give you a final native image and not a upscalled one.
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