Abriael_GN
RSI Employee of the Year
Imagine losing >80% of your performance to achieve this:
Imagine being so disingenuous that you cherry-pick the one scene that shows a limited difference, among tons that show big differences.
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[DF]Cyberpunk 2077 Ray Tracing: Overdrive Technology Preview on RTX 4090
- Thread starter Spyxos
- Start date
Imagine being so disingenuous that you cherry-pick the one scene that shows a limited difference, among tons that show big differences.
Buggy Loop
Member
Tomorrow
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Absolutely stunning stuff. At least in some areas. The performance hit isnt as bad as I thought it would be. 48 fps Raster vs 18 fps? Thats what 2.5x? I am currently getting 60 fps using psycho RT settings on my 3080 at 4k dlss performance. If i go down to 1440p dlss performance, i might actually be able to run this.
I dont see how this is the future though. the visual gains just arent enough to justify a 2.5x hit to performance. That kind of the GPU overhead is better spent elsewhere like adding more detail and better character models. I think Matrix still looks better because of this. Will next gen or even PS7 consoles use path tracing? I just dont think so unless they can figure out a way to reduce the cost by half.
I dont see how this is the future though. the visual gains just arent enough to justify a 2.5x hit to performance. That kind of the GPU overhead is better spent elsewhere like adding more detail and better character models. I think Matrix still looks better because of this. Will next gen or even PS7 consoles use path tracing? I just dont think so unless they can figure out a way to reduce the cost by half.
T4keD0wN
Member
I quite dig ray tracing, but i wouldnt really miss it 90% of the time and this just highlights how inadequate it is. Pathtracing is the real deal and something the industry should aim for. Well, in 10 years once the gpus are capable enough.
The ethernet usage killed me.
The ethernet usage killed me.
Mahavastu
Member
I think you mix something up.
In that year DF had a top X list of 2020 games with the best graphics, best technic and so on, and here the PC version of Cyberpunk won.
Alex and John spend a while talking about that their decision is probably controversial, but that they still think this game deserves the title.
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Mahavastu
Member
while you are right, that those things would be good for performance, you do not need ARM for that. It would also work on X86
You do no need a huge chip, which would be insanly expensive because of bad yield, it would be "good enough" to put it in the same package, like Apple did it with the M1
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ienjoyrawfish
Member
I see the "rAy TrAcInG iS a MeMe" crowd are still determined to die on that hill. It won't be long now before we look at them like we look at this:
Turk1993
GAFs #1 source for car graphic comparisons
I was playing CP2077 yesterday maxed out and was like holy shit this looks soo good. But now seeing this blows my mind how far we have come. It looks soo good that i can literally take screenshots of every corner or place i go in the game. And why are people crying about the performance lol, its the most advance game ever made. Some people have beeing criticizing devs for not pushing the tech, and when they do they now criticizing the performance lol. This is the new Crysis 1 and i can't wait to test this when the RTX5000 series launch. I want to play this with 4k DLSS Quality mode. While 4K Performance mode looks really good, the quality mode is on a different level when it comes to sharpness.
The charachter models are already incredible looking outside some random npcs, better than almost any game. Just look at the level of detail on them and look at the detail of the player hands
U n i o n 0015
Member
Agreed. I kinda wonder what techniques people are going to have to use in the future to get around that perfect path-traced look, haha. Like we have all these rasterization techniques to get game lighting look more realistic, now it's gonna be the other way around.
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daninthemix
Member
99% of those saying they can't tell the difference or the difference isn't worth it, don't have access to hardware that gives them the choice.
Buggy Loop
Member
It'll be the future
It basically solved all the limits of the hybrid rasterization + RT in one fell swoop for not that drastic of a penalty. 5 years ago you would have told me that path tracing a game like Cyberpunk would be 18 fps 4k native? I would have told you you would be lucky to have even 1 frame every 30 seconds.
I'm not even sure why we bother to look at native performances when anyway you need a form of temporal AA, and DLSS at the very least should almost always be enabled.
5000 series for sure is tailored to accelerate that pipeline even further.
Nvidia also has an improvement already in research beyond ReSTIR called Neural radiance cache (NRC), which if i would take a bet, is that 5000 series will likely have tech for it but should still be agnostic as it uses Tensor cores.
We're talking about what, 5000 series high end to make this playable native, then 6000 series low end to have this playable?
That's a snap of the finger fast in the tech world. It took way longer than that to have tessellation standard in the rendering pipeline compared to its first appearance in hardware in 2001.
Lumen has RT as the backbone of its tech, with a simplified geometry and that will have a tsunami of games supporting it soon. Next gen consoles at the very least will have current PC Lumen hardware RT performance hit vs Lumen software (i.e. no penalty).
Nvidia bypassed the path tracing wall with ReSTIR. Wouldn't surprise me that all vendors, APIs and game engines fast track to implement a similar solution of it. Before we know it, artists will stop manually putting these light sources or pre-baking lights.
We went from Quake 2 RTX in 2019 with tens lights part of the ray tracing in simple corridor geometry → Cyberpunk 2077 path tracing in 2023 with thousands/unlimited lights with probably the most complex open world geometry of modern days.
In a mere 4 years
Umbasaborne
Banned
Downplaying the technology makes it easier for people who cannot currently access it because they are on consoles, to cope. I cant afford to buy a house yet, even though i really want one. It make it easier for me to cope when I think of all the cons of a house
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Tits bigger, up to 20% with RTX.
Buggy Loop
Member
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
Ok, roll on tomorrow. Cant wait. Hopefully I can get a decent enough feeling playable game at 1440P with DLSS 3
LaughingStock
Member
Can't wait to try it tomorrow.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Actually Apple chip is pretty huge:
You can always do what Apple is doing, selling the perfect yield higher as usual.
You can always play it like this:Imagine losing >80% of your performance to achieve this:
Dude thats a huge difference.Imagine losing >80% of your performance to achieve this:
LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
I told you what, as a fan of games I've always enjoyed this. That's a fan of technology and advancements and graphics in this industry or anything that has to do with how games are made, I've always been excited about the best and newest technology.
Part of all of us, I would imagine, would want to see bleeding in its performance and tech being pushed to the limit. A sort of measurement on what kind of effects can be done right now in real time regardless of frame generation or anything, it can be done.
I can see the jokes about the price and how the entry level is with these things but has anybody ever been a part of a higher end of technology without paying a premium to experience certain things before anybody else? OLED TV's or even high-end electronic vehicles which are probably beyond most of our budgets, that's the cool stuff that you like to see that even if it's stuff that most of us can't necessarily afford brand new at this moment.
So this lets us see that right now, a 4090 particularly can run this game very well with DLSS and that's fine. These technologies are there to be taken advantage of and I don't know about you but I have always wanted to get more out of the hardware that I have. I don't care whether you call it cheating or free performance or whatever but me as the consumer just cares about getting the best experience and the most out of the hardware that I have.
Now the other side of the jokes and making fun of the effect of these things is pretty much missing the point. The subtleties in reality are small and you don't appreciate them until you see games starting to render the my new details that you take for granted but in real time in video game. I don't take any of these advancements lightly or laugh at them because regardless of how subtle or simple they may be, they are getting closer to something that looks more realistic regardless of our direction. And at the very least you don't want to look at rasterize graphics and make you think that it looks like plastic or fake. And I'm not saying they need to look Ultra real but look at rasterize graphics with simple lighting and you damn well can observe first that it looks unnatural if light is bouncing a certain way or shadows aren't cast under certain things. It does break the illusion to an extent and I know I'm not the only one that doesn't notice this because in real life I'll tell you this, that bottle on the ground or the toilet paper that's sitting on the counter cast shadows and that's what I want to see in a video game.
I welcome all these advancements and heaven forbid you do have to have high-end hardware, I've been on that other side. I have been on the mid-range just outside the high-end and I've been there forever. But if I happen to have something good it's not because I didn't earn it but I do deserve it and so does anybody with great hardware.
Part of all of us, I would imagine, would want to see bleeding in its performance and tech being pushed to the limit. A sort of measurement on what kind of effects can be done right now in real time regardless of frame generation or anything, it can be done.
I can see the jokes about the price and how the entry level is with these things but has anybody ever been a part of a higher end of technology without paying a premium to experience certain things before anybody else? OLED TV's or even high-end electronic vehicles which are probably beyond most of our budgets, that's the cool stuff that you like to see that even if it's stuff that most of us can't necessarily afford brand new at this moment.
So this lets us see that right now, a 4090 particularly can run this game very well with DLSS and that's fine. These technologies are there to be taken advantage of and I don't know about you but I have always wanted to get more out of the hardware that I have. I don't care whether you call it cheating or free performance or whatever but me as the consumer just cares about getting the best experience and the most out of the hardware that I have.
Now the other side of the jokes and making fun of the effect of these things is pretty much missing the point. The subtleties in reality are small and you don't appreciate them until you see games starting to render the my new details that you take for granted but in real time in video game. I don't take any of these advancements lightly or laugh at them because regardless of how subtle or simple they may be, they are getting closer to something that looks more realistic regardless of our direction. And at the very least you don't want to look at rasterize graphics and make you think that it looks like plastic or fake. And I'm not saying they need to look Ultra real but look at rasterize graphics with simple lighting and you damn well can observe first that it looks unnatural if light is bouncing a certain way or shadows aren't cast under certain things. It does break the illusion to an extent and I know I'm not the only one that doesn't notice this because in real life I'll tell you this, that bottle on the ground or the toilet paper that's sitting on the counter cast shadows and that's what I want to see in a video game.
I welcome all these advancements and heaven forbid you do have to have high-end hardware, I've been on that other side. I have been on the mid-range just outside the high-end and I've been there forever. But if I happen to have something good it's not because I didn't earn it but I do deserve it and so does anybody with great hardware.
Victor Omega
Member
As someone who preorders CP2077 i can't be excited for any of this when the game is still crowded with codes and features unfinished.
it look pretty but AI and script is still broken. yes the game has made some improvements, yes I'm still salty.
it look pretty but AI and script is still broken. yes the game has made some improvements, yes I'm still salty.
Buggy Loop
Member
What GPU you have again?
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
I am getting a feel that 20 series are out.
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Nfactor_AF
Neo Member
Big Up's my RTX 4090 brothers, we dining good tomorrow 
Buggy Loop
Member
Got a feeling that the SER (Shader execution reordering) will take a huge dump on non 4000 series. That was made specifically for path tracing's chaotic calculations. We'll see tomorrow but ampere will likely choke.
Even with a 3080 Ti, i doubt tomorrow it will go well for me, even at 3440x1440.
I'd wager that a ton of whiny bitches will review bomb the free patch and a technological preview, expecting their 2060 should be offering playable framerates. I might get to see a glimpse of it on my card, maybe unplayable, who cares, it's interesting tech and we HAVE to move forward. It's also future proofing this game for years to come. Will happily revisit when i get a 5000 series card.
Buggy Loop
Member
rodrigolfp
Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
Can't wait to play this on a Nintendo console in 2077
Turk1993
GAFs #1 source for car graphic comparisons
If a rtx 4090 can get 40fps 4k dlss performance and 80 with dlss3, than we could expect 1440p30 dlss performance atleast. The RTX 4090 roughly doubles the fps in most games without dlss3 compared to my RTX 3080 ti. Im sure we could tweak some setting to get it locked 1440p30 with dlss, Alex will do a optimised setting video.DLSS ultra performance 1080p, 30 fps (maybe)
Mahavastu
Member
Actually Apple chip is pretty huge:
You can always do what Apple is doing, selling the perfect yield higher as usual.
https://www.apple.com/de/newsroom/2...xt-generation-chips-for-next-level-workflows/
While it is only the german version of the text, you can find a gallery with a picture of the internals of that package.
In this picture you can see that you have the M2 die itself, but the memory chips are mounted in the same package
This is what I meant: you do not need to do everything in the same die, you can add stuff in the same package. While this is slightly slower, it is still very fast, because it is so close to the die and you have so many memory chips for wide bandwith.
AMD uses a similar technology for example to add more cache to the die without ruining the yield.
And you do not need ARM for this. The ISA you use does not matter here, so a X86 would be fine.
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Lethal01
Member
This should be the basis for any game that's slightly realistic, from there they can tweak it to achieve the look they actually want rather than what they are forced to accept due to limitations.
If they want totally innacurate lighting at time the can make it like that, but it's rare for any developer to think "I really need these shadows to disappear when they are too far away" in a realistic game.
I totally, all I want from a game like breath of the wild is higher resolution/drawdistance and for the screenspace effects they use to be replaced by ratraced ones so they are more stable.
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Mattdaddy
Gold Member
Marketer of the year!
a multicultural team of v
Member
Inaccurate probably isn't the right word, but devs would absolutely want unnatural lighting. I mean there isn't a movie or TV show where the lighting isn't meticulously designed and staged in a way that isn't using "real" light sources. Hell even nonfiction two people in a room doing an interview requires a ton of extra lighting.
I think there are going to be some artistic growing pains where it becomes trendy to have literally only diagetic lighting, but eventually devs will probably work out the best ways to have nondiagetic lighting for artistic effect. Still ray traced or whatever, but coming from sources that don't actually exist.
Tchu-Espresso
likes mayo on everthing and can't dance
With the 4090 being able to pump out path tracing at high resolution now, is it safe to say that the next generation of consoles (say in another 5 years) will be able to achieve this relatively easily?
Spyxos
Member
5 years is a lot of time, but Amd is clearly behind Nvidia in terms of ray tracing. However, I can hardly imagine such a strong console.
Buggy Loop
Member
I don't understand why anyone would deliberately want to keep rasterization lighting. All these years the devs have been trying HARD to mimic ray tracing by pre-baking it with RT. It falls apart as soon as anything is dynamic, and is not bound by any art style. You could do cell shaded ray traced lighting game. Fornite / Mario 64 RT, Minecraft RTX, Lego, Teardown comes to mind.
Turk1993
GAFs #1 source for car graphic comparisons
5 years is enough for upper mid range cards to become as strong as a RTX 4090.