-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
DF: Control PS5 Vs Xbox Series X Raytracing Benchmark
- Thread starter AnotherOne
- Start date
ethomaz
Banned
Truth > what you thing about me.
BTW I have no ideia what are you talking about because I never even mentioned that corridor (I don’t even know where it is in the game lol).
But you can post it if you think it is worth lol
Last edited:
rsouzadk
Member
He wont. You should know that by now. It is just a "bench" and people are going crazy about it.
Last edited:
phil_t98
#SonyToo
seems to me where any thread has a slight xbox advantage or positivity it goes mental lol
Negotiator101
Member
Yes Sir it is, but certain individuals are trying to create something out of nothing, I feel sorry for Alex and the DF team. The usual suspects are up to their usual shenanigans to discredit them, shameful.
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
This is almost verbatim what has been stated in this thread. People are in denial.
Last edited:
01011001
Banned
I am actually wondering if it would be a good idea to forbid threads like these... the sheer stupidity in them is mindboggling to say the least. low IQ take after low IQ take from both sides in each of these stupid threads. facts are not accepted as such, the "losing side" always looks for stupid small details to try to discredit the source... it is ridiculous
either that or make fanboying inside threads like these bannable... this shit is not fun or has any value
either that or make fanboying inside threads like these bannable... this shit is not fun or has any value
Last edited:
DonJuanSchlong
Banned
They should remain open, but the fanboys should be hit with the ban hammer
. Threads like this are great for those who want to discuss, but horrible for fanboy fodder.
Last edited:
ToTTenTranz
Banned
I can't figure out whether or not Matt Hargett is suggesting that new engines will favor the PS5's higher-clocked but narrower GPU, with that "vice-versa" at the end of the sentence.
MasterCornholio
Member
So he's saying that some next gen games will perform better on the PS5?
I'm wondering what kind of games those will be.
Last edited:
MasterCornholio
Member
I wouldn't call all members of Digital Foundry unbiased. But I don't think they are manipulating their results to put Xbox ahead.
What bugs me the most is instead of trying to explain why the PS5 might be ahead in something they merely say that they don't know.
Negotiator101
Member
They seem to have a particular dislike to Alex and its borderline harassment as far as I'm concerned. What many don't realise is that we only know exact settings and information about different versions because developers talk and trust DF. They don't talk to NXGAMER, VG tech etc, DF give us the full picture and for that reason alone they should be commended.
martino
Member
i think this can end all nitpicking.
ethomaz
Banned
VGTech is not saying DF is making up results but that the tools are lacking.
That is something Batalhia already confirmed when he said that he had to manual count the framerate in Vanalla due the tools having issues with screen tearing.
Physiognomonics
Member
Well he is right. We already have at least one next gen game: NBA 2K21 has next-gen assets specific to the new consoles. DF about it:
Using the same res and effects It runs at least 10% better on PS5.
ToTTenTranz
Banned
Perhaps because they actually don't know.
Microsoft has been open about their hardware implementation, especially so towards DF with whom they partnered with to announce the consoles' specs to the world.
On Sony's side they may simply not know as much about the hardware. They don't know how much effective memory bandwidth is being gained by the cache scrubbers or the custom "14C" GDDR6 with probably tighter latency, if there is some kind of Infinity Cache, how much L3 is there in the CPU and whether or not it's using a single CCX with 8 Zen2 cores and unified L3 (effectively making it "Zen 2.5"?), like RedGamingTech has been suggesting for months.
Microsoft has released a ton of slide decks explaining in some detail all their features and what to gain from them, but Sony is a complete mystery in comparison.
From the high-level specs numbers they have (the same as we do), Sony console should come out behind in almost all cases, and the fact that it isn't is leaving them scratching their heads.
The only seemingly "exclusive" PS5 info I've seen a DF member say or write was Dictator/Alex saying something along the lines of "it's to be expected that the Xbox GPU has more advanced features, because the PS5 had to be completed earlier due to its original 2019 release date".
I'm assuming this is something he heard from developers and not just a wild guess, though.
Last edited:
vgtech (even if you are not sure yet) has not found such different results ... they also give the xsx as more performing but probably with some frames (according to them duplicate) less. Anyway I didn't like the post written on beyond3d especially if they still don't even have the certainty to prove what they say. They would have done well to notify DF privately and then if certain of what was happening to release the news and DF I'm sure would have clarified.
Last edited:
TGO
Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
I don't think she's that bad, the piss filter doesn't help much and the game model don't do the actress justiceAfter watching several videos on the control benchmark, i must confess that chick is one ugly looking Broad.
But I wouldn't say she ugly
Dibils2k
Member
yep they do it early on everytime, at the peak of interest then later when its proven to be just BS they quiet down until the next H2H and we start the cycle again
nikolino840
Member
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
then surely it will be easy to let this one go.
MasterCornholio
Member
I did have a theory that it was something to do with texture steaming. Although I thought the textures were just loading faster due to the PS5s I/O.
SenjutsuSage
Banned
It boosts effective RAM capacity by significantly cutting down on the amount of texture data that needs to be stored in VRAM at any given moment. If the data requirements for scenes are significantly lowered to get the same visual result, then the effective capacity has improved no matter how you slice it.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Uh, if they don't actually know, how are they supposed to explain it?
bender
What time is it?
I'll need to hear Matt's mic skills before we lay this to rest.
polybius80
Member
the data required for a visual result on a scene is more than just texture buffers(there is also geometry and other buffers for many effects, shadows, light, etc), even if you can update textures very quickly the rest is the same and the updates are not going to be much faster the difference may be for space available(but that is also true if you dont require too much textures) but even that depends how much you need and how much you can use, that is why its wrong to say it improves RAM capacity that is simply not true, saying it improves RAM involves other things, you dont get more speed or more space in RAM you lower your texture requirements which is not bad
Last edited:
SenjutsuSage
Banned
The amount of texture data you require in physical RAM is significantly cut down due to Sampler Feedback Streaming. It provides the textures you need at the very instant you need them, meaning less need to stage a lot of texture data in RAM. Textures are one of the biggest consumers of VRAM. There's a reason I'm using the word 'effective' RAM capacity because it's a fact that it will improve effective RAM capacity on Series X, just as infinity cache in a very different fashion greatly improves effective memory bandwidth on RDNA2 PC cards.
I'm not saying SFS is Infinity Cache. By using SFS you have a far greater chance of Series X's GPU never needing to dip over into slower standard memory due to the memory savings developers get from using Sampler Feedback Streaming. Sampler Feedback Streaming is going to be a game changer in the games industry and for GPUs in general. It's the next big step or evolution in texture streaming, and Xbox Series X has support for it right now. That's a big damn deal.
Neo_game
Member
You all keep doing this not so subtle dance where you whisper in dark corners that the Series X hardware is fundamentally bottlenecked and will never achieve the potential of its spec. You all know full well these types of things are nothing more than early development hiccups that will be completely ironed out with time, right? I'll be fair, though, I'd totally be taking my early shots wherever I could get them too, but this is all building towards a fundamental, inescapable reality.
There is no innate flaw in the hardware design of Series X that secretly makes PS5 the more powerful console. There is nothing that youtube "engineers" like moores law and redtech have seen that Microsoft and AMD have somehow overlooked or miscalculated. No amount of Cerny magic can change one simple reality: Not only is PS5 the weaker console, it also isn't even close enough as to be considered "more or less equal in performance" to Series X as some hope is the ultimate outcome when all cards from both platforms are fully on the table in each of their most impressive future games. Series X is just flat out stronger. The reason performance between the two consoles - save for a few edge cases - is looking most often like a wash is largely because Series X is playing with one arm tied behind its back.
How so? Well, between games clearly being designed more around PS5 first and then merely ported over to Series X with, for the most part, the exact same configuration and data organization - which often won't properly address the difference in GPU performance across 10GB of GPU Optimal memory which runs at 560GB/s and 3.5GB of standard memory which runs at 336GB/s for Series X's asymmetric memory design - this ends up contributing to an occurrence where Series X's much larger GPU ends up running into many more situations where all those additional shader ALUs - 1024 more to be exact compared to the PS5 - end up being bandwidth starved.
This is how you get performance stutter that isn't present on PS5, or how you get bizarre performance drops when simple text is being shown on screen. Unless people actually want to believe Xbox Series X can't handle large text appearing on screen in Control without big dips in performance when weaker PCs and consoles manage the task just fine?
On the PS5 side it comes down to nothing more than simplicity and ease. PS5 has a more straightforward unified memory setup where all available game memory sees the same 448GB/s. Asymmetric memory is the biggest factor so far in Series X not showing the gap. It's a memory bandwidth thing, and this is why Sampler Feedback Streaming is so important and vital to the Series X design. It increases effective RAM capacity by 2.5x. So that 10GB of GPU optimal memory will seem more like 25GB. Even scaling it back some, and saying only 5GB of the 10GB (since not all 10GB will be for textures) that still works out to 12.5GB of effective memory, still leaving the other 5GB of GPU optimal, thus pushing it to an effective 17.5GB of memory that will all operate at the 560GB/s memory speed. In this entire thing I've left out and haven't even factored in the 2.5GB of slower memory. And before some of you start telling me these numbers/memory savings are fantastical and aren't at all realistic, I refer you all to your kraken/oodle PS5 SSD compression/decompression posts/threads. If we can/should take those numbers seriously, we can take the far less fanciful SFS numbers provided by Microsoft seriously as well.
Some may call the asymmetric memory design a flaw in Series X, but it's far from it. It was a clever decision to get the power they wanted at the price they wanted. It was either that or 20GB of RAM and price yourself out of the game. The other alternative was going with even faster GDDR6 RAM, another move that could price them out of competitiveness. This is something developers have to design for, but it isn't all on developers. Microsoft has to make it easier, more error free. They need to get more developers actually using Sampler Feedback Streaming in their titles. This is literally the reason Microsoft said that Xbox Velocity Architecture is the soul of Xbox Series X. It's how the console will meet its full potential.
So when I see these early game comparisons and all this talk of PS5 "punching above its weight," another way I've come to look at it is that Series X's basic memory setup seems to be getting ignored in cases despite the very real performance drawbacks of doing so, and it's only because of the built in power advantage that it still ends up easily matching the PS5 experience, or only barely losing till patch arrives, or even having the edge over PS5. But we've already seen cases where Series X clearly outdoes PS5. Hitman 3 doesn't happen by accident or pure chance. It still represents the largest gap between both consoles thus far.
I do not think there is any porting from PS5 to the SX. It is from SS, may be SS will be the limitimg factor for SX thoughtout the gen ? Some cross gen games are scaled from last gen consoles. For SS it from from last gen S and for SX it from X. Moreover remdey are PC devs and have more games on Xbox than Sony consoles. So if this game is ported from PC they should not have any trouble. You would think they are quite well versed with DX and Microsoft tools. As a matter of fact, I think their next game Crossfire X is timed or console exclusive to Xbox. As far as memory and BW constraints. I think there is advantage for SX if games are using 10gb or less above that, it is not ideal and probably PS5 has an advantage with unifrom bus width. But we do not know how much RAM these games are using.
Md Ray
Member
That's the point. It's the heaviest area in the game and a perfect way to gauge perf for worst case scenario and decide whether to cap the frame-rate or not in order to avoid large inconsistencies.
polybius80
Member
again its wrong, Ill give you an example, PS2 has 4 MB of eDRAM, it uses typically 2 MB for texture buffer but it can update this buffer many times during frame, let say it updates 10 times per frame so would you say it has 22 MB of VRAM? if your answer was yes you are wrong because if you require more VRAM or more bandwidth for another particular effect or for redrawing(something PS2 uses a lot)then you dont have as much texture avilable as before or as if you had 20 MB more, just because you can update data fast doesnt mean you have more RAM they are two different things
I think you exaggerate with SFS as PRT is its base and do most of its work and its benefits(there are many tiers so I am talking generally), SFS helps with a special filter that ensures there is a minimal mip map available so dont have to search and cause a dip, I think PS5 have the upper hand in this regard
alabtrosMyster
Banned
alabtrosMyster
Banned
We had that conversation in regards to the 32MB EDRAM in the xbone back in 2013
.
alabtrosMyster
Banned
What's interesting is that the stuff not loaded caused discrepencies in the performance (it may load faster on the PS5 as well)... That game has this bug on my PC too, sometimes an item on the wall will remain in N64 mode for quite a while, often it loads only after I restart a section many times because I'm no good at it.
Fredrik
Member
I don’t know what that PS4 game was doing, maybe showing frame times? A functional fps counter shows the average frames per second and uncapped vsynced 59fps is nothing strange at all, just means that one frame was doubled the last second.
ethomaz
Banned
That is something I don’t get.
He should have to talked about it in the video or article... he needed people pointed it to go research about the issue.
BTW how that texture loading issue affect performance?
Last edited:
Fredrik
Member
Well that’s that then. Maybe we can go back to trusting that the devs actually knows their own game when they say it’s settings parity?
Shmunter
Member
PS5 possibly using max assets everywhere, unlike XsX having various LOD assets. Hence the install size discrepancy
Last edited:
CityHunter1981
Member
More proof about my theory that Microsoft only check the pure number and don't check how the single parts run together. Seems to me like they out in a powerful GPU which will never in a game reach its full potential because it is bottle-necked by the CPU.
How about Microsoft make a new slogan: The most powerful console ever built... in photo mode!
How about Microsoft make a new slogan: The most powerful console ever built... in photo mode!
Fredrik
Member
PS5 version had the low res texture in that example.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
well, i dont know if its a theory. Phil went on record several times saying he wanted to win the power crown. It was very important to him.
As for whether or not, he ended up creating a bottleneck somewhere by focusing on a large gpu chip, that remains to be seen. Some last gen games are not performing well so far, but some are doing just fine. lets wait and see. I think Battlefield 6 will be the first true test for both machines.
muteZX
Banned
in a very simplistic way ..
PS5 has faster rasterization /lets say about +18%/ because of ROPs and co. running at higher speed and there is a much faster SSD IOP.
XSX has faster raytracing /lets say about +18%/ because of higher amount of RT/CU units and partly much faster RAM.
The Mendoza map showed XSX performance "problems" with alpha at native 4K and XSX would have to reduce the resolution to the PS5 level, so the games would run exactly the same.
PS5 has faster rasterization /lets say about +18%/ because of ROPs and co. running at higher speed and there is a much faster SSD IOP.
XSX has faster raytracing /lets say about +18%/ because of higher amount of RT/CU units and partly much faster RAM.
The Mendoza map showed XSX performance "problems" with alpha at native 4K and XSX would have to reduce the resolution to the PS5 level, so the games would run exactly the same.
polybius80
Member
Last edited:
Self
Member
So your idea is to cancel this thread?
There is a forum out there which will please your feelings. Just saying...
Caio
Member
Don't be so defensive, nobody is attacking your Box, mate relax. I was just asking. I'm simply waiting for VGTech face-off.
I do not need to accept anything unless it comes from a reliable source, and don't ever tell me what I should accept or not if you cannot even understand what people say in their posts.
Shmunter
Member
Don’t know then
Negotiator101
Member
No.
i think that the xsx have basically more bw....Xbox architect did bet on 10 gb of fast ram to be enough fr the next gen, to which you can add 3 GB (im excluding the +or- 3gb that both console will use for the OS) ranging at 336gb/s that are not that slow! ...to put it into perspective the ps4 had 176gb/s, the ps4 pro 218 gb/s and the Xbox One x which was meant for 4k have 326 GB /s.
And again is not for nothing the rtx 3070 has less RAM and less bw than the faster ram in the series X , 8gb@448gb/s vs 10gb@560gb/s. If you add to all this the possibility to add 3gb of ram as needed for the frame buffer and to limit the bandwidth consumption through SFS (reduce till 1/3 the data needed for texturesl) , Mesh Shader (reduce the data decreasing the draw calls made by the CPU and allowing the culling of the triangles not visible in the scene) DirectML Super Resolution (hopefully given that they have used the console hw for machine learning that they will release a customized albeit simplified version of the Nvidia dlss). I think it's not bad as a solution
Last edited: