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[paulyboy81]

Are we sure this isn't just DF playing a patched version of Control?

The Series X version was plagued with (possible I/O?) stutters at release, stutters that would drag the frame times even further south in the midst of normal performance related drops as you traversed through levels or new enemies were spawning in.

The stutters were pretty much solved and patched out just a few weeks after release. It's been an infinitely smoother experience to play ever since.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if this is what Richard is looking at. Not that I wouldn't mind a system level update bringing about performance gains, I just think the former is far more likely in this case.

That said, patch or system level update, this does highlight how quickly performance comparisons and debates on forums like this become yesterday's news. Outside the release window no one generally gives a toss or re-tests outside of isolated cases.

 

[Clear]

Digital Foundry said the opposite, it's quiet rare that it touches games without patches.

My meaning was that its normal for firmware updates to "improve performance" not that its usual for these changes to manifest themselves within games. Generally devs will work around odd performance discrepancies arising from certain system calls being unexpectedly slow in some manner, because obviously they can only work with what is, as opposed to what may be there in future, and they want the best result in the now.

The upshot being that changes typically do need to be patched in to show their benefit, however that isn't to say that improvements and refinements aren't constantly being made throughout the lifetime of the system.

 

[Riky]

Are we sure this isn't just DF playing a patched version of Control?

The Series X version was plagued with (possible I/O?) stutters at release, stutters that would drag the frame times even further south in the midst of normal performance related drops as you traversed through levels or new enemies were spawning in.

The stutters were pretty much solved and patched out just a few weeks after release. It's been an infinitely smoother experience to play ever since.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if this is what Richard is looking at. Not that I wouldn't mind a system level update bringing about performance gains, I just think the former is far more likely in this case.

That said, patch or system level update, this does highlight how quickly performance comparisons and debates on forums like this become yesterday's news. Outside the release window no one generally gives a toss or re-tests outside of isolated cases.

If it was an isolated case, Alex says otherwise.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

Yeah the word is probably "disappointment", because the potential for the better performance was and clearly is there, the problem is that MS pretty heavily depends to AMD SW engineers for the whole graphical API, Sony has mostly their own ones, which consists of people employed in Santa Monica, ND, etc... Which shows. Obviously AMD is present, but it's not driving force.

I think MS engineers pretty much nailed the BC (to an extend which the architecture of their emulator can do), but all else left much to be desired.

And if the DF proves to be performant, I have peace on mind, that I was telling how it is, pretty much since infamous Dirt 5 DF/NX thread. And others.

Microsoft has the Advanced Technology Group, the HLSL Compiler Team and the DirectX team, and you're saying Microsoft is somehow more reliant on AMD SW engineers for their graphical API than Sony is? I think you are wildly mischaracterizing the situation here. Microsoft.

Announcing HLSL Shader Model 6.6 - DirectX Developer Blog

After months of development and refinement in collaboration with hardware vendors and software developers, we are pleased to announce the availability of Shader Model 6.6! Shader Model 6.6 empowers shader authors with new tools for greater flexibility to make existing shaders faster and more...

devblogs.microsoft.com

In the works: HLSL Shader Model 6.6 - DirectX Developer Blog

Microsoft and its partners are happy to announce the development of Shader Model 6.6, the latest advancement in HLSL capability. Shader Model 6.6 will grant shader developers increased flexibility to enhance and expand existing rendering approaches and devise all new ones.

devblogs.microsoft.com

Microsoft is far from lacking in resources for their graphical APIs. And you're not being serious if you don't think Sony works with partners like AMD on their API.

 

[M1chl]

Microsoft has the Advanced Technology Group, the HLSL Compiler Team and the DirectX team, and you're saying Microsoft is somehow more reliant on AMD SW engineers for their graphical API than Sony is? I think you are wildly mischaracterizing the situation here. Microsoft.

Announcing HLSL Shader Model 6.6 - DirectX Developer Blog

After months of development and refinement in collaboration with hardware vendors and software developers, we are pleased to announce the availability of Shader Model 6.6! Shader Model 6.6 empowers shader authors with new tools for greater flexibility to make existing shaders faster and more...

devblogs.microsoft.com

In the works: HLSL Shader Model 6.6 - DirectX Developer Blog

Microsoft and its partners are happy to announce the development of Shader Model 6.6, the latest advancement in HLSL capability. Shader Model 6.6 will grant shader developers increased flexibility to enhance and expand existing rendering approaches and devise all new ones.

devblogs.microsoft.com

Microsoft is far from lacking in resources for their graphical APIs. And you're not being serious if you don't think Sony works with partners like AMD on their API.

Ms as in Windows department and MS as in Xbox department is different section of people, sure they share in tech, but they also depends heavily on their partners, more so then Sony. Lacking in resources isn't the right word, tho. More so lacking in focus, for them Xbox is not just Xbox HW. I also don't doubt their proficiency in tech, but it depends how much of it reaches actual developers developers developers. I also don't doubt the HW team, what they did is nothing short of amazing (at the price obviously). Anyone programming to even Windows have to deal with obnoxious programming patterns and there is reason why Windows store is basically barren in comparison to the App Store for apple (Mac). And yes macOS allows for installation of software in same manner as Windows, yet a lot of stuff % wise is on AppStore. Microsoft is sometimes too big for their own good.

Remember Windows RT? That's an example which I believe is sort of along the lines, simply SW wasn't ready...

...it still isn't ready for primetime:


Take into consideration, how much of the of that DX team is nVidia/AMD engineers working back to back. I am not saying that MS sucks, not at all, but do they have issues? Yes they do.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

Ms as in Windows department and MS as in Xbox department is different section of people, sure they share in tech, but they also depends heavily on their partners, more so then Sony. Lacking in resources isn't the right word, tho. More so lacking in focus, for them Xbox is not just Xbox HW. I also don't doubt their proficiency in tech, but it depends how much of it reaches actual developers developers developers. I also don't doubt the HW team, what they did is nothing short of amazing (at the price obviously). Anyone programming to even Windows have to deal with obnoxious programming patterns and there is reason why Windows store is basically barren in comparison to the App Store for apple (Mac). And yes macOS allows for installation of software in same manner as Windows, yet a lot of stuff % wise is on AppStore. Microsoft is sometimes too big for their own good.

Remember Windows RT? That's an example which I believe is sort of along the lines, simply SW wasn't ready...

...it still isn't ready for primetime:


Take into consideration, how much of the of that DX team is nVidia/AMD engineers working back to back. I am not saying that MS sucks, not at all, but do they have issues? Yes they do.

Again, this is false that they do so more than Sony when every chance Mark Cerny gets he's literally telling you about all the work they do with partners, and how he even came to learn about kraken in the first place. It was through visiting development partners and seeing that studios were starting to use kraken. You can't possibly think for a second Sony is a semi-custom partner of AMD, and they don't regularly rely on AMD to help their engineers get the most from the silicon as they're working on their APIs.

The windows store being barren is about to change with windows 11 now that it's actually housing a windows strength, which is all those proper native windows applications that windows has access to and not just "metro" apps. I'll say again, your characterization is a bit off in assuming that Microsoft is somehow lacking and so more reliant on partners in some meaningful way for graphics API development than Sony is. Hell, before Sony had an equivalent to Microsoft's PIX performance analyzation tool, it was Sony who was playing catchup in that regard unless you forgot about that.

 

[M1chl]

Again, this is false that they do so more than Sony when every chance Mark Cerny gets he's literally telling you about all the work they do with partners, and how he even came to learn about kraken in the first place. It was through visiting development partners and seeing that studios were starting to use kraken. You can't possibly think for a second Sony is a semi-custom partner of AMD, and they don't regularly rely on AMD to help their engineers get the most from the silicon as they're working on their APIs.

The windows store being barren is about to change with windows 11 now that it's actually housing a windows strength, which is all those proper native windows applications that windows has access to and not just "metro" apps. I'll say again, your characterization is a bit off in assuming that Microsoft is somehow lacking and so more reliant on partners in some meaningful way for graphics API development than Sony is. Hell, before Sony had an equivalent to Microsoft's PIX performance analyzation tool, it was Sony who was playing catchup in that regard unless you forgot about that.

But I was talking about their graphical software layer, not that they somewhat figure it out through HW... There is a lot of copyrighted shit done by sony even to a things in bios. Which is seen in official documentation, which came out with the dev kit. I haven't said single word about Cerny and didn't even mean it.

Also you've said "it's going to change", yeah like in future, as if we talking about same concept with MS. And yes change takes time.

 

[DJTaurus]

No more minor frame drops. So more "another ones" incoming for the green powerhouse. ML next please to unlock even moarrrr juice. Another lost narrative…..

Spoiler

 

[onesvenus]

MS pretty heavily depends to AMD SW engineers for the whole graphical API

Can we have some source on this? I would expect the direct X guys to work on the graphical API

 

[M1chl]

Can we have some source on this? I would expect the direct X guys to work on the graphical API

They absolutely do, but dx and driver hardware compiler layer is something else than a api layer. I think if there would be our vfxspecialist he could confirm.

 

[onesvenus]

They absolutely do, but dx and driver hardware compiler layer is something else than a api layer. I think if there would be our vfxspecialist he could confirm.

I'm not following. DX is exactly an API layer

 

[Sir_Teraflop]

Everytime a dashboard update happens on xbox, it is accompanied by a corresponding driver update - it's easy to spot during the update process when the TV blinks into and out of a blank screen. So it is easy to understand that this "update" is probably due to a driver update etc.

Modern consoles are like pc - i don't think the game was recompiled with newer "toolz".

A simple driver update. Simple as that.

 

[Negotiator101]

Where is the message from Alex at DF saying its a tools update?

 

[Three]

Doubtful. The fillrate surplus would probably not alleviate the teraflop surplus.

True if they go lower res. Let me rephrase then. The games res is designed to offer 60fps in all other areas but the PS5 doesn't struggle on that field and maintains 60fps there too because it has a higher fillrate.

 

[M1chl]

I'm not following. DX is exactly an API layer

Direct 3D is what you are thinking, there is a quite a bit of nuance involved, but there is very little of such layer included on Playstation and you can turn pixels on/off by writing to GPU registers. This is pretty much as low as you can get, and this sort of assembly language (I am not exactly sure how Sony is calling it) is then build rest of it, by Sony engineers (and maybe back when development of PS4 started, AMD was involved), however as seen as in emulation, they are basically betting with "being a same HW", so there is very little abstraction work done.

 

[intbal]

Where is the message from Alex at DF saying its a tools update?

Here.

Specifically, 52:45.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

Everytime a dashboard update happens on xbox, it is accompanied by a corresponding driver update - it's easy to spot during the update process when the TV blinks into and out of a blank screen. So it is easy to understand that this "update" is probably due to a driver update etc.

Modern consoles are like pc - i don't think the game was recompiled with newer "toolz".

A simple driver update. Simple as that.

Xbox literally runs a version of Windows. I feel like a lot of people don't know that. Games that compile for Xbox generally compile for Windows too without much tinkering.

 

[SlimySnake]

Everytime a dashboard update happens on xbox, it is accompanied by a corresponding driver update - it's easy to spot during the update process when the TV blinks into and out of a blank screen. So it is easy to understand that this "update" is probably due to a driver update etc.

Modern consoles are like pc - i don't think the game was recompiled with newer "toolz".

A simple driver update. Simple as that.

What goes in these drivers if you dont mind me asking?

I find that playing newly released games on PC without the latest nvidia drivers results in far worse performance almost all the time. Then I install new GeForce drivers and boom, game starts to run perfectly. What exactly is being changed on the GPU to make these games run well without needing any patches to the game code?

 

[Sir_Teraflop]

What goes in these drivers if you dont mind me asking?

I find that playing newly released games on PC without the latest nvidia drivers results in far worse performance almost all the time. Then I install new GeForce drivers and boom, game starts to run perfectly. What exactly is being changed on the GPU to make these games run well without needing any patches to the game code?

Nothing changes in the GPU,/hardware it's simple as that - new drivers that improve calls to the hardware stack exactly like you describe for the Nvidia drivers.

 

[Sir_Teraflop]

Xbox literally runs a version of Windows. I feel like a lot of people don't know that. Games that compile for Xbox generally compile for Windows too without much tinkering.

You are correct but the topic at hand is that out of nowhere (not) Control was fixed in a random xbox dashboard update. It wasn't patched or anything like that according to DF.

It was a simple Driver Update like... windows as you said.

 

[Riky]

There was an update on the new DF video today, they confirmed that the Xbox version "is just as good if not slightly better now than it is on PS5"
They say it wasn't a patch from the developer that improved performance but an update to the Virtual Machine wrapper.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

There was an update on the new DF video today, they confirmed that the Xbox version "is just as good if not slightly better now than it is on PS5"
They say it wasn't a patch from the developer that improved performance but an update to the Virtual Machine wrapper.

Link and timestamp?

 

[Riky]

Link and timestamp?

8.40 ish.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

8.40 ish.

Interesting, seems DF got their hands on some PS5 firmware upgrades that are leading to slightly better performance on PS5 as well.

 

[DenchDeckard]

Wow, I guess the tools did arrive....on both.

 

[Negotiator101]

8.40 ish.

Riky mate can you confirm the Little Nightmares 2 fix on Series X?

 

[akaFullmetal]

Love hearing we are squeezing more and more out of these systems! Keep the updates coming.

 

[Fafalada]

Digital Foundry said the opposite, it's quiet rare that it touches games without patches.

The PC style 'driver update = more fps' is rare yes.

But as the other poster stated - software is generally forced to work around the issues when they exist. Eg. I've personally seen titles where firmware/driver stack was directly responsible for serious degradations/fluctuations in performance (think about 10x of what DF showed in this recent video).
Obviously - until said issue was addressed - we explicitly worked around it and still hit the refresh target, so there was no transparent 'bump' to performance.

 

[Sosokrates]

Interesting, seems DF got their hands on some PS5 firmware upgrades that are leading to slightly better performance on PS5 as well.

Its open to the public, the same update that added 3dsound for tv speakers.

 

[JackMcGunns]

Ladies and gentlemen:

The tools have arrived!

 

[Insane Metal]

Nice, so is the difference in favor of the XSX 30% or more now?

 

[J_Gamer.exe]

Sony smashing it again, if they keep updating that firmware then soon they will soon be claiming the most powerful console ever

12.8 firmware flops of pure power.

Top guys.