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News Developer Speaks About Lockhart "Holding Back Next Gen." And PS5 VS XSX Dev Kits.

Kumomeme

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So we’re not getting a generational leap in AI... how exciting.
if you refer to slower clockspeed for lockhart's cpu, i guess alhough it clocked lower, but the performance surely still far better than current gen's jaguar cpu...that just intel atom level cpu.
 

Mister Wolf

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Why do people keep saying that? Name me one pc game where toggling graphics settings turns a multiplatform game into completely different experience? Gears 5 is probably the best example of scalable graphics, but whether you play it on a 13 Tflops RTX2080 Ti or a 1 Tflops Xbox, you're still getting the exact same game with the same levels, geometry, ai, physics and core game design.

Personally I don't think MS cares about keeping their Xbox install base. They are just taking a much more cross platform approach where pc gamers are obviously their main focus. It's just that not many pc gamers have anything near the kind of specs that's in Series X. That is why they will probably be targeting specs like a GTX1060 for a long time, until RTX like cards become mainstream on pc.

The console versions of The Hunt: Showdown doesnt use the Voxel Global Illumination that's available in the PC version. The lighting is completely different, more dynamic and realistic in the PC version. That lighting affects gameplay because anyone who has played Hunt knows visibility is everything with it's in game day/night cycle.
 
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Deleted member 775630

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Anyone saying Lockhart console will not limit next gen is a fool.
On other hand console about twice as fast for 300$ seems to be winning strategy for MS.

The only difference between games games for lockhart and PS5/SEX will be that PS5/SEX will be running Lockhart games with extra resolution, some extra effects and maybe maybe better framerate. Games will not look like 10TF games but like 4-5TF ones.

Basically what is now with games having XboxOne base. Like in case of PS4 exclusives only PS5 exclusives will show 10tf games.
 

MrMiyagi

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The console versions of The Hunt: Showdown doesnt use the Voxel Global Illumination that's available in the PC version. The lighting is completely different, more dynamic and realistic in the PC version. That lighting affects gameplay because anyone who has played Hunt knows visibility is everything with it's in game day/night cycle.
Fair enough, that's a pretty rare case though. If someone buys a RTX gpu they will have a hard time finding a game that really shows what it can do, as those games simply don't exist. For the most part, a high-end gpu plays the same games people are getting on consoles, just with a extra layer of coat and at a much higher framerate/resolution. There's a reason why only 15m people bought a RTX card and why most pc gamers are buying the low-end gpu's. Most people just don't think 4k and 120fps is worth it.
 
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MadAnon

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as i know hardware (cpu) indeed one of reason for lacking in AI and other cpu related field..current gen we only has jaguar cpu as main processor..that thing is just mobile cpu, intel atom level of cpu..for next gen..we get different beast..Ryzen cpu to handle the task
As I said, it's not true. If it was just hardware related then why does ps3/360 titles have in lot of cases better AI than even todays games? Where are those PC exclusives with god like AIs taking advantage of powerful CPUs? The problem is that current AI approach requires a ton manual crafting of all kinds of scenarios and according behaviours. And trying to build more complex scripts often leads to bigger mess instead of something that could be considered better AI. Elder Scrolls games are good example of this. Their AI is relatively complex but the end result is often a meme worthy mess.
 
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BadBurger

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No offense but what does working as a product manager have anything to do with game development?

I'm not trying to answer for MastaKiiLA MastaKiiLA because they did so succinctly themselves, but from my experience every creation from disparate groups of IT and tech have product and project managers. Otherwise many would fail.

They're often not specialists in any given field, rather educated and trained in coordinating efforts between the people who may work in mechanical engineering, along with IT, along with software developers, down to the customers they're serving. It's a tough job and that's why it pays well.
 

HR2

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it most certainly will, unless there are no restrictions and games for Lockhart are not mandatory,
 

Kumomeme

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As I said, it's not true. If it was just hardware related then why does ps3/360 titles have in lot of cases better AI than even todays games? Where are those PC exclusives with god like AIs taking advantage of powerful CPUs? The problem is that current AI approach requires a ton manual crafting of all kinds of scenarios and according behaviours. And trying to build more complex scripts often leads to bigger mess instead of something that could be considered better AI. Elder Scrolls games are good example of this. Their AI is relatively complex but the end result is often a meme worthy mess.
actually not that ps360 has better A.I...it just since then A.I didnt make much advancement even during ps4/xbox one era..because the only teremendous jump is in gpu and memory aspect...althought there is significant improvement in cpu department, but it the most less jump compared to other part of hardware...thats why there are people been refering to current gen as "just prettier graphics"..most advancement we see is in that department since it get the most jump.

but saying this gen is totally lacking in that aspect is not totally true either..for example A.I in Middle Earth:Shadow of War being gimped alot in ps360 compared to ps4/x1....there certainly aspect is not possible on previous gen hardware but, this gen most of advancement we spending here is for prettier visual and chasing resolution/fps and there even claim from devs that the cpu already being bottleneck..with all those stuff happened, i doubt devs has any budget room for other advance cpu related aspect like A.I and physic simulation....basically, yes, cpu indeed one of things that impeding advancement in that field...some game, can even playable on weaker hardware as long scale down the visual properties without actually affecting the core gameplay, for example witcher 3 on switch

ofcourse, all of it still fall of devs...but surely they will allocating and sacrificing budget for whats most important and feasible based on what they have.
 
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MrFunSocks

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What happens when you develop a Series X game that runs at 1800p or 1440p to really push the visuals how will that run on Series S? I'm not convinced it's that easy to scale down to S. For current gen games yes but those next gen games?
The same thing that happens when you develop it at 4K......
 
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danielJackson

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The same thing that happens when you develop it at 4K......

Well then it sucks to have sub 1080p resolution

Because 4k to 1080/1440p is 3-4x drop

So same thing from 1440-1800p equals into under fullHD.

Maybe they just turn everything on low + stay at fullhd
 

Nikana

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Decided to ask a buddy of mine in the industry about the Lockhart and Series X vs PS5 and what he thinks so far. He is working on Borderlands 3 for Next Gen right now.

Vetted by Bill O'Rights

When I asked about Lockhart "holding back next gen." He had this to say:

"I really hate this term as it doesn't make any sense in terms of how games are actually made but I understand what people are trying to say. But if you have ever designed a game there isn't much you can and can not do. Its all a matter of what you are willing to put time/resources into to get working correctly. Whenever a new generation of consoles happens it allows creators to get things working faster and easier. Lockhart when we/my team was first briefed on it sounded really bad on paper.

Microsoft failed on providing real dev kits and details on the project. We didn't get any type of Lockhart hardware until very recently. Before we actually had the hardware we were given a profile on Anaconda dev kits that would mimic what Lockhart would be. But Microsoft never mentioned that it would have the same CPU and an SSD or how much RAM they intended Lockhart to have. I suspect this was because they themselves hadn't decided. To put it bluntly, they released these profiles far too early. The tools they provided made us hate Lockhart.

That changed once we got Lockhart Dev kits. It is indeed the same CPU and SSD and getting up and running on this device was super easy compared to Anaconda running in the Lockhart profile. We have been able to do the work we want on Anaconda and get it running on Lockhart with not a ton of work but it has required a bit more time to make sure the code runs on both machines in the same fashion. Its not something we are really worried about anymore. As the generation goes on I feel like this will be the approach for many studios. You start on Anaconda and then optimize for Lockhart. There is nothing the Lockhart can't do that the Anaconda can.



.

People missed it but in the Series S video, Jason Ronald also mimicked the bolded. 7:50 in the video.

 

quest

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This is a mainstream developer saying lockheart is no issue to the next gen systems. Will the 10 people on this forum thst keep saying it kills next just stop now?
Nope they are going to scower the internet for opinions of guys who may or may not worked on the newer lockheart development kit. Did you not know Jason Ronald is a liar he made up things like SFS, series x having a sound chip, direct storage ect.
 

Nikana

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This is a mainstream developer saying lockheart is no issue to the next gen systems. Will the 10 people on this forum thst keep saying it kills next just stop now?



But in all seriousness, its one developers take. Developers are not a one size fits all. They all have preferences and opinions on these sorts of things.
 
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But in all seriousness, its one developers take. Developers are not a one size fits all. They all have preferences and opinions on these sorts of things.

I'm wondering what's going to happen once the real next gen games start coming out.

I love Borderlands and I can't wait for the upgrade. But there's no way that I'm calling it a next gen title.
 
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Nikana

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I'm wondering what's going to happen once the real next gen games start coming out.

I love Borderlands and I can't wait for the upgrade. But there's no way that I'm calling it a next gen title.

Games like Destiny 2 and Borderlands that span many many years are never going to be "current" or "next gen." They are a platform so they will never be on the cutting edge of tech due to how they are built. I would throw Avengers into that as well.
 
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GHG

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But in all seriousness, its one developers take. Developers are not a one size fits all. They all have preferences and opinions on these sorts of things.

This is fair and true.

In my world some people swear by the method of just building the most advanced app you can for the project and then use polyfills to get things running on lesser browsers. Whereas in my experience I've found that method of doing things to leads to nothing but headaches in most cases and you often end up with a lot of jank.


Lends a bit of credence to this OP.

Not sure how TBH when it's a game designed around last gen consoles being ported to next gen. What will be telling is how their next gen game shapes up.
 
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Nikana

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This is fair and true.

In my world some people swear by the method of just building the most advanced app you can for the project and then use polyfills to get things running on lesser browsers. Whereas in my experience I've found that method of doing things to leads to nothing but headaches in most cases and you often end up with a lot of jank.



Not sure how TBH when it's a game designed around last gen consoles being ported to next gen. What will be telling is how their next gen game shapes up.

Gonna need an explanation for that one. I dont work for the developer. I simply asked the questions and got some answers. You make it sound like I am working on Borderlands 3.
 
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Games like Destiny 2 and Borderlands that span many many years are never going to be "current" or "next gen." They are a platform so they will never be on the cutting edge of tech due to how they are built. I would throw Avengers into that as well.

I'm thinking more like titles like GTAVI and Final Fantasy XVI.
 

MrFunSocks

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Well then it sucks to have sub 1080p resolution

Because 4k to 1080/1440p is 3-4x drop

So same thing from 1440-1800p equals into under fullHD.

Maybe they just turn everything on low + stay at fullhd
Eh, resolution drops every generation as the years go by. At least now we have better upscale techniques to mitigate it.
 
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GHG

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Gonna need an explanation for that one. I dont work for the developer. I simply asked the questions and got some answers. You make it sound like I am working on Borderlands 3.

No I understand you don't, the second part of my post wasn't directed at you but rather the other person I quoted. Just didn't want to have to do 2 consecutive posts.

What I said there is in reference to things not being "held back". A port of BL3 doesn't really prove anything in that respect by virtue of it being a port of a (soon to be) last gen game. The game is already "held back" by whatever design choices they would have needed to make to get it running well on the Xbox One and PS4.

I'm not questioning the validity of your OP, got no reason to doubt you.
 
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Nikana

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No I understand you don't, the second part of my post wasn't directed at you but rather the other person I quoted. Just didn't want to have to do 2 consecutive posts.

What I said there is in reference to things not being "held back". A port of BL3 doesn't really prove anything in that respect by virtue of it being a port of a (soon to be) last gen game. The game is already "held back" by whatever design choices they would have needed to make to get it running well on the Xbox One and PS4.

Fair enough.
 

ethomaz

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Games like Destiny 2 and Borderlands that span many many years are never going to be "current" or "next gen." They are a platform so they will never be on the cutting edge of tech due to how they are built. I would throw Avengers into that as well.
Destiny removed the PS360 because limitation.... only after that we got bigger inventory on PS4/XB1... it was a big celebration in Destiny GAF community... years shading useful gears because the game was cross-gen.

Destiny is a clear example of old machines holding back new machines.
 
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ethomaz

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According to OP, there's no reason to have new consoles, if we just put "time and resources" we can have Elder Scrolls 7 run at 60fps on a Switch. Calling b.s.. Read more dev opinions.
The OP fails when he says “there is nothing you can do in Anaconda that you can’t do in lockhart”... it is a flat out lie.
 
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Destiny removed the PS360 because limitation.... only after that we got bigger inventory on PS4/XB1... it was a big celebration in Destiny GAF community.

Destiny is a clear example of old machines holding back new machines.
Exactly. It used to be a no-brainer. Now it seem we hit the point when there actually is no brain. Bwains
 
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quest

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Developer? lol

Let’s ask the Id Software, Ubisoft, Remedy, etc senior engineers.

His Destiny example is even against him.
No it is not that is old generation vs newer. Now if destiny dropped the base ps4 and xbox one then continued pro and one x support only it would be the same.
 

ethomaz

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No it is not that is old generation vs newer. Now if destiny dropped the base ps4 and xbox one then continued pro and one x support only it would be the same.
The tread is clearly about weak hardware holding back strong hardware... that is the reason there is new generation and old generation.

The Destiny example fits perfectly.

Think like Destiny 3 not having a 1000 space inventory because Lockhart doesn’t have enough memory for that.

That is what happened with Destiny... it is a simple and dumb example that happens a lot in gaming development.

Features are removed because the weaker hardware can’t have it.
 
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quest

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The tread is clearly about weak hardware holding back strong hardware... that is the reason there is new generation and old generation.

The Destiny example fits perfectly.

Think like Destiny 3 not having a 1000 space inventory because Lockhart doesn’t have enough memory for that.

That is what happened with Destiny... it is a simple and dumb example that happens a lot in gaming development.

Features are removed because the weaker hardware can’t have it.
Yet again 16x memory difference vs less than 2x. Keep trying I'm sure once other developers come out who actually worked on it will say the same thing.
 
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Nikana

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Destiny removed the PS360 because limitation.... only after that we got bigger inventory on PS4/XB1... it was a big celebration in Destiny GAF community... years shading useful gears because the game was cross-gen.

Destiny is a clear example of old machines holding back new machines.

Has nothing to do with what I said. All I said was that games that are developed with long life's will never be in the cutting edge of technology.
 
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DynamiteCop!

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What happens when you develop a Series X game that runs at 1800p or 1440p to really push the visuals how will that run on Series S? I'm not convinced it's that easy to scale down to S. For current gen games yes but those next gen games?
Checkerboard, reconstruction, Direct ML, there's like 20 different ways you could handle this.
 
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anothertech

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This guy is full of shit. Or just unknowledgeable about the actual coding and dev process.

You always start with a base line and add on from there. Just like on PC.

You can't develop for SSD, 16gigs of RAM and massive bandwidth then scale down to half that and hope it works. It's always developed to work on the base line, then scaled up as much as time permits . That's the only way it works.
 

ethomaz

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What are you even on about? It's a vetted post from a developer. So now Borderlands 3 doesn't have senior engineers?

Where did the developer talk about Destiny?
You can’t be serious... was a big think in 2015... anybody that played Destiny knows that.



You OP post is either made up or the dev lied.
 
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Nikana

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You can’t be serious? It was a big think in 2015.



What does this have to do with the OP?



Developer? lol

Let’s ask the Id Software, Ubisoft, Remedy, etc senior engineers.

His Destiny example is even against him.

And then went to claim they aren't a developer? And then said he gave a destiny example?
 

semicool

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If a dev doesn't like developing on series S too.....sounds like an untalented developer. Should stay away from PC development then too. Or multiplatform for that matter.
 
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