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Denis Villeneuve Says ‘Cut and Paste’ Marvel Movies Have ‘Turned Us Into Zombies’

Turnt

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Relatively, no its not. In a vacuum sure. But the amount of money going into these render that obsolete.

Hes criticizing a formula. A formula that exists outside of the genre anyway and is pretty much a universal one of good vs evil. He however follows a formula too.
The amount of money that goes into it is irrelevant. We’re just talking about how many people go and see them. You said he can’t make films that people are interested in. Generating hundreds of millions at the box office is evidence of a huge amount of interest.

He’s talking about how his films reflect his artistic vision and that he feels that he can stand by every choice in the film as a reflection of the film he wanted to make. Whereas the Marvel films are known for having sections, like action scenes, where control is taken away from the director and handled by people appointed by the studio. So how is him adapting Dune hypocritical?
 
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thegame983

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I enjoy the marvel movies for the most part, but if I could reverse time and stop them from ever being made, I would.
 
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Toons

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Not it's not. It just means that it is easy to consume.
Marvel movies are easy to consume, Villeneuve movies are not, especially slower paced atmospheric pieces like Blade Runner.

What? Some Marvel movies now require that you've watched 20+ movies. Blade Runner requires that you watch one.

How is the second "harder" to consume than the first?
 

Toons

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The amount of money that goes into it is irrelevant. We’re just talking about how many people go and see them. You said he can’t make films that people are interested in. Generating hundreds of millions at the box office is evidence of a huge amount of interest.

Not enough interest. Thats why we have flops and successes.
He’s talking about how his films reflect his artistic vision and that he feels that he can stand by every choice in the film as a reflection of the film he wanted to make. Whereas the Marvel films are known for having sections, like action scenes, where control is taken away from the director and handled by people appointed by the studio. So how is him adapting Dune hypocritical?

He doesn't have any more free will adapted a story that's already been told as a marvel director would making a completely original story and having some other departments handle the minutia.

If anything, he has less in that regard.
 

sol_bad

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Blade Runner 2049 made $260 million
Arrival made $203 million

It’s not like he’s making art house stuff that no one watches.

Bladerunner budget - 150-185 million = lost money
Arrival budget -47 million = made a bit of profit.

strange headache strange headache You equated financial success and popularity to quality in your manga thread. So don't pretend you don't do it too.
 
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strange headache

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What? Some Marvel movies now require that you've watched 20+ movies. Blade Runner requires that you watch one.

How is the second "harder" to consume than the first?

Oh please, Marvel movies are lowest common denominator entertainment. All these movies can be watched by themselves and their explosions and action scenes certainly don't need any prerequisite knowledge to tickle your lizard brain.
Only idiots would think that getting a reference based on the mere merit of having watched another crappy Marvel movie requires some sort of intellectual effort.
 

Toons

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Oh please, Marvel movies are lowest common denominator entertainment. All these movies can be watched by themselves and their explosions and action scenes certainly don't need any prerequisite knowledge to tickle your lizard brain.
Only idiots would think that getting a reference based on the mere merit of having watched another crappy Marvel movie requires some sort of intellectual effort.

Do you start chapter books from the middle then?

Missing parts of an ongoing narrative resulting in making it harder to be invested, isn't a statement that regards ones intelligence in any way shape or form.

Its simply a consequence of the nature of storytelling in a long format.

Most people are lost watching Thor 3 as their first marvel flick.... because they are supposed to be.

They still require more investment than watching a sequel to blade runner. Not even up for debate.
 

Turnt

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Not enough interest. Thats why we have flops and successes.


He doesn't have any more free will adapted a story that's already been told as a marvel director would making a completely original story and having some other departments handle the minutia.

If anything, he has less in that regard.

So if someone made a film for $100 trillion and it became the highest grossing film in history and literally every person on the planet went to see it multiple times with a run in cinemas that lasted for years but it "only" made $99 trillion at the box office then you could say people weren't interested in it? I'm talking about box office performance purely as a measure of how many people went to see a film.

The creative choices were his to make rather than being dictated by executives. Whole sections of Marvel films are taken out of the hands of the directors so that they match up with the formula the studio has already established and/or promote the next Marvel film (which the director isn't involved in).

Bladerunner budget - 150-185 million = lost money
Arrival budget -47 million = made a bit of profit.
Again, I'm not talking about its box office performance in relation to its budget. My point was that a film that makes $200 million has captured the public's attention to a large degree. If someone has done that multiple times then you can't say they don't make films people are interested in. $200 million is a lot of asses in seats.
 
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Toons

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So if someone made a film for $100 trillion and it became the highest grossing film in history and literally every person on the planet went to see it multiple times with a run in cinemas that lasted for years but it "only" made $99 trillion at the box office then you could say people weren't interested in it? I'm talking about box office performance purely as a measure of how many people went to see a film.

No, I'd say not enough people were interested in it to merit its being produced. Thats a distinct statement from saying no one was interested in it.
The creative choices were his to make rather than being dictated by executives. Whole sections of Marvel films are taken out of the hands of the directors so that they match up with the formula the studio has already established and/or promote the next Marvel film (which the director isn't involved in).
Even if we knew the extent to which this actually happens, it doesn't change the fact that creative vision is virtually almost always limited, either by things like executive, or by budget. If you think executives had no say in this Dune film then you are mistaken. He is after all, using their money to make it, not his own.

Again, I'm not talking about it' box office performance in relation to its budget. My point was that a film that makes $200 million has captured the public's attention to a large degree. If someone has done that multiple times then you can't say they don't make films people are interested in. $200 million is a lot of asses in seats.

But its not enough asses in seats to..

Nevermind idk why im repeating myself.
 

Kusanagi2086

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As someone who likes the Marvel movies Villeneuve is not wrong I consider those movies fun to watch, but yeah the formula is really apperant at this point.
 

sol_bad

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The creative choices were his to make rather than being dictated by executives. Whole sections of Marvel films are taken out of the hands of the directors so that they match up with the formula the studio has already established and/or promote the next Marvel film (which the director isn't involved in).

It's a creative and joint effort.
Go back and read or watch interviews with the Russo Brothers, Ryan Coogler, Peyton Reed, Jon Watts, James Gunn, Taika Waititi, Kate Shortland, Chloe Zhao and now Destin Daniel Cretton.

A lot of the time Feige helps make their films even better. Some of the films are written by the directors, some aren't. Obviously if someone isn't open to a team effort they won't like making a Marvel film. One thing the directors all say is that they have a lot of freedom though.

And if you are talking about action scenes being pre-vized, it's no different than a lot of other Hollywood films. There are heaps of action films where the director is hands off with the action, they either let a 2nd unit deal with it or the stunt coordinators do it, or a director does the action and then the editors mess with the scenes during the editing process. Not every director gets to edit their films properly. And the industry has been like this for decades.
 
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Xenon

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And...

These movies are a child hood fantasy come to life. Having an auteur snub his nose at it, is fine by me. I'd rather have that then have one of them shoehorn their vision into my comic book movie.

Are they they perfect, no. But the scope and quality they are able to archive is unparalleled. I could give fuck all if people consider them good cinema.
 
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Trogdor1123

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Dennis isn't wrong but my god... The ego of people around movies boggles my mind. They didn't make the film but still act like the movie is theirs and how they are the only ones smart enough is pathetic. Acting like some is "stupid" because they like something different boggles the mind. It certainly doesn't make you smarter either.

Some people (me) like both (I loved Arrival and can't wait for Dune).
 

Rien

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Wrong. Guy is an idiot just like Scorsese. Fine to not like those movies, but denying the fact that a lot of people love and enjoy them, because you know, tastes and shit and just posting hateful shit is dumb af. I love Blade Runner 2049 and Dune and Avengers and everything else. Just watch the movies and enjoy them. Stop posting dumb shit just to attract attention to your audience. It's ridiculous.

Sure… but he’s right tho..

I can enjoy a McDonald's burger once in a while, but that doesn't mean I think it's great food. There is and should be a hierarchy to these things, otherwise we'd all just strive towards mediocrity.

Basically this..
 
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Labolas

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MCU stans get pissy over anyone being critical of MCU...

shocked philip j fry GIF
 

oagboghi2

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Wrong. Guy is an idiot just like Scorsese. Fine to not like those movies, but denying the fact that a lot of people love and enjoy them, because you know, tastes and shit and just posting hateful shit is dumb af. I love Blade Runner 2049 and Dune and Avengers and everything else. Just watch the movies and enjoy them. Stop posting dumb shit just to attract attention to your audience. It's ridiculous.
They are cookie cutter movies that follow a generic formula

You like cookie cutter movies that follow a generic formula. That's okay.

Martin Scorsese and Denis Villeneuve are telling the truth. That doesn't make them idiots
 

oagboghi2

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Do you start chapter books from the middle then?

Missing parts of an ongoing narrative resulting in making it harder to be invested, isn't a statement that regards ones intelligence in any way shape or form.

Its simply a consequence of the nature of storytelling in a long format.

Most people are lost watching Thor 3 as their first marvel flick.... because they are supposed to be.

They still require more investment than watching a sequel to blade runner. Not even up for debate.
The mindset of MCU stans is amazing.

outside of endgame, these movies are not hard to consume. by design, anyone could watch them at any point. They are just stupid action movies after all.

By comparison, Villeneuve movies require a lot more mental engagement from a audience
 

Toons

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The mindset of MCU stans is amazing.

outside of endgame, these movies are not hard to consume. by design, anyone could watch them at any point. They are just stupid action movies after all.

By comparison, Villeneuve movies require a lot more mental engagement from a audience

Smwhy do so many people think that having preceding storytelling be often needed to get involved in a story, is somehow reflective on the intelligence of the viewer lmao?

You're saying a lot more about yourself than about me with these comments.
 

oagboghi2

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Smwhy do so many people think that having preceding storytelling be often needed to get involved in a story, is somehow reflective on the intelligence of the viewer lmao?

You're saying a lot more about yourself than about me with these comments.
I'm not making a judgment about the intelligence of anyone. I am, accurately, pointing out that these movies don't require prior knowledge of previous movies, and they are made, by design, to be for the lowest common denominator public. That's fine. That is what Disney wants

Denis movies, by comparison, are not like that at all. His most action-oriented movie, Sicario, still had more downtime and required more mental engagement than most marvel movies.
 

Toons

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I'm not making a judgment about the intelligence of anyone. I am, accurately, pointing out that these movies don't require prior knowledge of previous movies, and they are made, by design, to be for the lowest common denominator public. That's fine. That is what Disney wants

Denis movies, by comparison, are not like that at all. His most action-oriented movie, Sicario, still had more downtime and required more mental engagement than most marvel movies.

No they aren't. You are not meant to go into infinity war, endgame or even spider man homecoming without knowing anything. It quite literslly requires several films worth of viewing.

Mental engagement has nothing to do with it
 

Revolutionary

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No they aren't. You are not meant to go into infinity war, endgame or even spider man homecoming without knowing anything. It quite literslly requires several films worth of viewing.
Lmao no they don't. Each movie in the MCU is designed to be perfectly consumable as an entry point into the franchise. Most sequels are, MCU or not. Solely appealing to returning viewers means no growth (likely even negative growth), and that's not what the box office studios are after - they want more money from more viewers, which means appealing to new viewers by making each new entry accessible. It's not just business sense, it's common sense.
 
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Toons

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Lmao no they don't. Each movie in the MCU is designed to be perfectly consumable as an entry point into the franchise. Most sequels are, MCU or not. Solely appealing to returning viewers means no growth (likely even negative growth), and that's not what the box office studios are after - they want more money from more viewers, which means appealing to new viewers by making each new entry accessible. It's not just business sense, it's common sense.

Nonsense. Fiege himself said they were no longer doing this back in like 2018.
 

Claus Grimhildyr

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No they aren't. You are not meant to go into infinity war, endgame or even spider man homecoming without knowing anything. It quite literslly requires several films worth of viewing.

Mental engagement has nothing to do with it

No, you don't. You can go in, knowing absolutely nothing, and still get the full picture. You don't need to know the history of Iron Man, or Thanos, or Thor. Except for Endgame, but that is literally just a second half of an unfinished first film.

They are mindless, forgettable. They are the epitome of summer blockbusters because they require zero thought.
 

ManaByte

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Nonsense. Fiege himself said they were no longer doing this back in like 2018.

More like 2015. It hasn't been like that since Feige went to Iger and threatened to quit unless he no longer had to report to Ike Perlmutter. That was a Marvel Creative Committee thing and they don't exist anymore.
 

Revolutionary

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Nonsense. Fiege himself said they were no longer doing this back in like 2018.
Feige said they're not making each MCU film into an entry point? There must be some misunderstanding, because not only does that make absolutely ZERO business sense, it's also completely false. Almost every single MCU movie since 2018 (Captain Marvel, Black Widow, Shang-Chi) has been an entry point. There are also the recent Disney+ shows designed to reel people into the MCU as well.
 

Toons

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No, you don't. You can go in, knowing absolutely nothing, and still get the full picture. You don't need to know the history of Iron Man, or Thanos, or Thor. Except for Endgame, but that is literally just a second half of an unfinished first film.

They are mindless, forgettable. They are the epitome of summer blockbusters because they require zero thought.

Another person who doesn't understand what I'm saying. This isnt hard guys. You all keep responding with your same opinions of the movies as if that has anything to do with the fact they feature plot elements and narrative beats you literally would have no way of knowing about without watching previous films.

And on a side opinionated note, if you think more people are going to remember Dune than these "forgettable" movies you're out of your gd mind. I cam guarantee you with all certainty that isnt going to happen, no matter how good Dune is(and I do expect it to be good)
 
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Toons

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Feige said they're not making each MCU film into an entry point? There must be some misunderstanding, because not only does that make absolutely ZERO business sense, it's also completely false. Almost every single MCU movie since 2018 (Captain Marvel, Black Widow, Shang-Chi) has been an entry point. There are also the recent Disney+ shows designed to reel people into the MCU as well.

He said verbatim you'd need to watch wandavision and probably spiderman 3 before seeing doctor strange 2, and yes he went on record and said while they initially wanted to allow each one to be am entry point, it has become harder to do so for obvious reasons.

Does that mean you can't enjoy any of them? No it doesnt
 

strange headache

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The people claiming that you need some sort of arcane knowledge about the previous movies to follow the braindead plot in these popcorn action flicks are frikkin' absurd. Watching Marvel movies must be the equivalent to sniffing glue if you can say that with a straight face,
 
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Toons

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The people claiming that you need some sort of arcane knowledge about the previous movies to follow the braindead plot in these popcorn action flicks are frikkin' absurd. Watching Marvel movies must be the equivalent to sniffing glue if you can say that with a straight face,

Arcane? No. Basic plot elements that aren't in the films prior? Yea lol

Much like a comic book series, you can often enjoy indivual stories but you'll be missing a TON of context and plot if you do so.

Meanwhile I donf have to have read, seen, or heard of anything else to go in to watch Dune. Because its the first story.

Thats not a statement on the quality of either. Its simple fact. If you dont like the marvel films, more power to you! Plenty dont. But my point stands. I knew a person who watched Rogue One as their FIRST star was movie.

They were able to follow it but their enjoyment of it, especially the ending, was effected by not having seen any other star wars film prior.
 
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Claus Grimhildyr

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Another person who doesn't understand what I'm saying. This isnt hard guys. You all keep responding with your same opinions of the movies as if that has anything to do with the fact they feature plot elements and narrative beats you literally would have no way of knowing about without watching previous films.

And on a side opinionated note, if you think more people are going to remember Dune than these "forgettable" movies you're out of your gd mind. I cam guarantee you with all certainty that isnt going to happen, no matter how good Dune is(and I do expect it to be good)

Speaks volumes to your level of intelligence if you are the kind of person who truly believes they need to see previous marvel films to understand the latest.
 

Toons

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Speaks volumes to your level of intelligence if you are the kind of person who truly believes they need to see previous marvel films to understand the latest.

And yet you attach intelligence to what films one enjoys yet again...

*sigh*

Look we can disagree on it I suppose. I've lost interest lol
 

sol_bad

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The mindset of MCU stans is amazing.

outside of endgame, these movies are not hard to consume. by design, anyone could watch them at any point. They are just stupid action movies after all.

By comparison, Villeneuve movies require a lot more mental engagement from a audience

Enemy is the only film of his that requires mental engagement. Arrival tricks you until you figure out the time element. The rest of his newer films are just slow paced. I still love them though.
 
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oagboghi2

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Enemy is the only film of his that requires mental engagement. Arrival tricks you until you figure out the time element. The rest of his newer films are just slow paced. I still love them though.
Sure dude, Arrival, Sicario and BR are totally as accessible to general audiences as ...Ant-man?Ok..
The Rock Reaction GIF by WWE


No they aren't. You are not meant to go into infinity war, endgame or even spider man homecoming without knowing anything. It quite literslly requires several films worth of viewing.

Mental engagement has nothing to do with it
3 movies, out of what, 25?

And you don't need to know anything about the MCU to follow homecoming
 

highrider

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Marvel films are indicative of the times. People don’t frequent movies, particularly with a family it’s expensive so you’re looking for a certain ‘ guaranteed ‘ entertainment experience. Sure they aren’t reinventing the wheel but you don’t run the risk of being bored as fuck by The Green Knight.
 
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Claus Grimhildyr

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And yet you attach intelligence to what films one enjoys yet again...

*sigh*

Look we can disagree on it I suppose. I've lost interest lol

No, you were. You are the one who thinks people are dumb enough to not understand the barebones and overly simplistic plot structures of Marvel films that they need to actively watch the previous entries - when they literally do not.
 

arkhamguy123

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Sorry but he's right. People can post all the interviews from "directors" (who are always currently under Disney's employ) who try to dispute this but these movies are directed by executives and VFX artist. Exact plot lines, action sequences, and specific shots are planned years before a single crew member is even hired. They just trace the outline with a pencil basically. They are expensive 2 hour TV show episodes. Their directors superfluous, their cinematographers extraneous. Their writers? Please.

And that's okay. Anyone can still enjoy them. In fact, they are made to be enjoyed. (And to set up marketing for the next movies). But it's pretty incontrovertible that they are soulless. You need only compare something like say the Raimi Spider Man to the Disney MCU Spider-Man to see this. Something crafted by a visionary vs a appeal to four quadrant soulless corporate vampiric visionless product. Hell even the Marc Webb movies for all their faults were extensively fucked with by Sony and still come out with more heart than Homecoming or Far From Home. Because Marc Webb is a good filmmaker and Jon Watts, like most marvel directors, is a no name *insert director here* for the studio.

The DC movies when they don't outright suck (WW1984), or are meddled with (1st SS/ Whedon JL). Are far FAR better to me because I feel an actual film in them. They're typically very cinematic and filmic. Even David Ayers suicide squad intrigues me with that directors cut that's buried somewhere. And the Snyder cut while faulty in some areas and long was much more of an actual enjoyable movie for me than any avengers film. Because while yes I'm sure they have studio notes and some parts of the vision compromised, I always still walk away feeling like I at least saw a directors movie. (Nolan Batman, Burton Batman, Donner Superman, MoS, WW, To some extent Batman Forever, BvS ultimate edition, the upcoming "The Batman" etc.)
 
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arkhamguy123

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I'll add that this approach works very well for marvel, most normal people I know aren't into this stuff as much as a forum poster would be, and surely not as much as I am. (Huge comic guy/film guy). And I'll give you guys an anecdotal example. Last year when the batman trailer dropped I sent it out to my casual friends, a decent amount of females, some in sororities, and just regular dudes who don't care about superheroes or cinema. People who work their jobs, get drunk on weekends, spend a lot of time on social media, you get the picture.

So I sent it all hyped as fuck as I noticed Matt Reeves vision, the justice to the character, the shots, the atmosphere, the tone. And some said it looked badass but the vast majority rejected it as it was "too dark looking", "looked scary", "not colorful". And that they had no interest, and/or wouldn't see it. Fast forward a year and the gray, cheap, disposable No Way Home trailer comes out and these same, much more casual people send it to me hyped losing their minds cannot wait to see it opening weekend. This is the Disney effect. It's exactly what they design and want and it works.

You think any of my real life normal friends would sit through and enjoy a slower, methodical, dark, bleak Denis film? Unlikely.
 
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Toons

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No, you were. You are the one who thinks people are dumb enough to not understand the barebones and overly simplistic plot structures of Marvel films that they need to actively watch the previous entries - when they literally do not.

No I didn't. I said it has nothing to do with intelligence... several times.
 

Toons

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I'll add that this approach works very well for marvel, most normal people I know aren't into this stuff as much as a forum poster would be, and surely not as much as I am. (Huge comic guy/film guy). And I'll give you guys an anecdotal example. Last year when the batman trailer dropped I sent it out to my casual friends, a decent amount of females, some in sororities, and just regular dudes who don't care about superheroes or cinema. People who work their jobs, get drunk on weekends, spend a lot of time on social media, you get the picture.

So I sent it all hyped as fuck as I noticed Matt Reeves vision, the justice to the character, the shots, the atmosphere, the tone. And some said it looked badass but the vast majority rejected it as it was "too dark looking", "looked scary", "not colorful". And that they had no interest, and/or wouldn't see it. Fast forward a year and the gray, cheap, disposable No Way Home trailer comes out and these same, much more casual people send it to me hyped losing their minds cannot wait to see it opening weekend. This is the Disney effect. It's exactly what they design and want and it works.

You think any of my real life normal friends would sit through and enjoy a slower, methodical, dark, bleak Denis film? Unlikely.

Yea it sucks. I saw the Green Knight a couple weeks ago and I just think how many people would appreciate it but would love a Marvel movie. Me I can appreciate both. Some diversity of entertainment is a good thing