• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • Hey Guest. Check out the NeoGAF 2.2 Update Thread for details on our new Giphy integration and other new features.

News Contradictory reports surface on whether Demon's Souls has or doesn't have RayTracing

Moses85

Member
Jan 7, 2018
1,349
1,566
420
I saw the RT Effects... so
 

Yoboman

Member
Sep 17, 2005
19,392
13,522
1,890
I have asked both authors what's happening and the one that claims there's no raytracing posted the original English transcript of the interview



The original tweet is here
Shame he didn't provide the question asked as well. At a guess I think Gavin is answering why it doesn't have rt in Performance mode? Which is why he goes on to discuss the two modes. Which might help it align better with the other interviews

That or just pure mistranslation issues. I dont understand why he is using an AI translator, did he take the notes in English? If so why does he need an AI translation into Spanish?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lethal01
May 8, 2020
3,835
9,290
640
Shame he didn't provide the question asked as well. At a guess I think Gavin is answering why it doesn't have rt in Performance mode? Which is why he goes on to discuss the two modes. Which might help it align better with the other interviews

That or just pure mistranslation issues. I dont understand why he is using an AI translator, did he take the notes in English? If so why does he need an AI translation into Spanish?

Exactly. It just needs a clarification by BluePoint. Simple tweet would do.
 
Aug 28, 2019
8,261
12,036
840
If you want to put yourself in that group, yes. Otherwise don't pretend like that hasn't been the "concern" in the spec thread.

I'm not sure I'm the representative of a thread I barely post in. Are you saying you're only calling this generation a mess as a reaction to people who attacked XSX for lack of RTX? Because my response to you was based on the idea next-gen is a mess due to lack of RTX, which was in general from what I could tell in your post but you somehow turned it into me being a hypocrite because... I represent a group of posters in a thread I don't really post in much? Like legit, check my post history, I mean... I did tonight but it was just a stupid drunk post.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lethal01

Bojanglez

The Amiga Brotherhood
Apr 16, 2007
2,168
1,365
1,365
UK
I don't understand what the problem is. The game either looks good or it doesn't, either way that is also a personal opinion.

RT use can be an artistic choice, particularly where lighting is concerned. Also RT is not always just reflections. I have no idea if this game has it or not, either way to me it looks great so 🤷‍♂️
 
  • Like
Reactions: farmerboy

Concern

Member
Sep 20, 2020
1,590
4,083
510
I'm not sure I'm the representative of a thread I barely post in. Are you saying you're only calling this generation a mess as a reaction to people who attacked XSX for lack of RTX? Because my response to you was based on the idea next-gen is a mess due to lack of RTX, which was in general from what I could tell in your post but you somehow turned it into me being a hypocrite because... I represent a group of posters in a thread I don't really post in much? Like legit, check my post history, I mean... I did tonight but it was just a stupid drunk post.

Its a mess in general. Weak lineups. Biggest game is a remake. 4k/60fps, no 4k/60fps, upscaled 4k/60fps, rt, no rt, etc etc.

You took exception to the rt comment, not the mess part.
 
Aug 28, 2019
8,261
12,036
840
Its a mess in general. Weak lineups. Biggest game is a remake. 4k/60fps, no 4k/60fps, upscaled 4k/60fps, rt, no rt, etc etc.

You took exception to the rt comment, not the mess part.

I made fun of you calling things a mess because of a feature being missing that people are still debating whether or not it's actually missing. The feature is so meaningless people can't even figure out if it's there or not.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bojanglez

Concern

Member
Sep 20, 2020
1,590
4,083
510
I made fun of you calling things a mess because of a feature being missing that people are still debating whether or not it's actually missing. The feature is so meaningless people can't even figure out if it's there or not.


First it wasn't the rt comment, now it was. Be consistent with whatever point you're trying to make next time. Clearly you can't make up your mind with what bothered you more. Have a goodnight.
 
Aug 28, 2019
8,261
12,036
840
First it wasn't the rt comment, now it was. Be consistent with whatever point you're trying to make next time. Clearly you can't make up your mind with what bothered you more. Have a goodnight.

I am consistent, you're not. You also didn't understand my posts if you think I've shifted my point in any way that matters.
 
Aug 28, 2019
8,261
12,036
840
Read the first replyes, in the beginning all the kids were happy because ds was showing how rt should be made, now they simply say it's a waste of resources

This thread feels like flypaper for people to complain about over-arching narratives over the course of this forum's existence that have slighted them somehow.
 

Jibran#one

Member
Sep 19, 2020
166
187
260
Ray tracing in my humble opinion is the most overrated bs in the history of graphical upgrades, the performance drop-off for what u get on screen is really not worth it , I would love to see ps5 and xbox series stay away from it and give us some juicy 60 fps instead of it
 
  • Like
Reactions: Riky

bender

Bending Rodríguez (22, 1,729)
Apr 12, 2010
8,473
11,853
1,310
Blue Point just shot themselves in the foot.
I don't know how much the rest of you know about Ray Tracing culture (I'm an expert), but lighting and shadows are huge parts of it. It's not like it is in RDNA1 where you can become successful by using pre-baked lighting model....
 

ruvikx

Banned
Jan 12, 2018
1,822
3,599
475
Ray tracing in my humble opinion is the most overrated bs in the history of graphical upgrades, the performance drop-off for what u get on screen is really not worth it , I would love to see ps5 and xbox series stay away from it and give us some juicy 60 fps instead of it

It's the new nvidia hairworks.

I get the push for photorealism probably requires some ray tracing at some point, but there's a whole load of other areas which can & should be improved before we reach that point. For example it's a bit jarring to see low poly npc's & geometry in video games whilst people scream "look at those beautiful ray traced reflections in those puddles!" whilst the framerate tanks.

Use the power elsewhere & not on marketing gimmicks.
 
  • Fire
Reactions: Ryu Kaiba

DavidGzz

Gold Member
Jan 7, 2018
2,227
2,579
615
If someone told me it had full RT I wouldn't know any better lol. Still the best thing I've ever seen. If it does come to PC in a few years, I'll pick it up again. No biggie.

This game will look soooo good on an inky black oled

I'm going to rewatch the second trailer when my CX arrives on Tuesday. Hnnnnng
 
Last edited:

onesvenus

Member
Aug 26, 2004
966
1,153
1,575
Shame he didn't provide the question asked as well. At a guess I think Gavin is answering why it doesn't have rt in Performance mode? Which is why he goes on to discuss the two modes. Which might help it align better with the other interviews

That or just pure mistranslation issues. I dont understand why he is using an AI translator, did he take the notes in English? If so why does he need an AI translation into Spanish?
He was not using an AI translator, he was using a speech to text AI and from there he translated into Spanish
 

Kumomeme

Member
Mar 20, 2017
1,665
1,788
450
Malaysia
probably still could come later by patch, or goty edition.

eitherway the game already look great without raytracing. nothing to worry.

it was a decision they made since it was something that was outside their initial ideal of the project. Also, there is a certain cost to implement it and they preferred to prioritize other elements.

When we started development we didn't know there would be ray tracing in the game, so it wasn't in our original vision.

“It's like any other graphical improvement, there is a cost [to implement raytracing]. If we had implemented ray tracing in the game, that would mean that we would have had to leave something out. There is a limited time in game development.

Perhaps from the sounds of it the features never been implemented in their engine since beginning because not part of their inital plan. Adding later in late of development would affect their scheduled progress timeline.
 
Last edited:

farmerboy

Member
Nov 17, 2013
3,190
3,121
670
Melbourne Australia
If someone told me it had full RT I wouldn't know any better lol. Still the best thing I've ever seen. If it does come to PC in a few years, I'll pick it up again. No biggie.



I'm going to rewatch the second trailer when my CX arrives on Tuesday. Hnnnnng

Please do tell, I'm on the fence between a x900h or LGCX because there is a $2000 difference between the two at 65in here in Oz. I need that extra push to commit the extra money.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DavidGzz

Hix

Banned
Jul 24, 2011
4,071
7,115
1,030
Belfast, NI
I think it looks fantastic and isn't missing anything by not having RT.

Similarly, I think the RT looks significant enough to accept the performance hit on Watch Dogs on XsX.

It's definitely a game-by-game feature for me, but I don't think Demon's Souls needs it to look great at all.
 

Lethal01

Report me for trolling MS/Xbox threads > 07/02
Jun 15, 2019
1,866
3,141
545
Read the first replyes, in the beginning all the kids were happy because ds was showing how rt should be made, now they simply say it's a waste of resources

Nah, there were always tons of people saying raytracing is a waste, They are wrong, but at least it's consistent.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Grinchy
Dec 29, 2018
3,508
10,058
745
I Don't want native 4K.
If you want native 4K, build a PC.

I Dont want Ray tracing.
If you want Ray tracing, build a PC.

I Don't want 60FPS.
If you want 60FPS, build a fucking PC.

All are huge resource hogs and if all are prioritized, you wont see much in the way of graphical leaps expected from these new consoles.

I have always said, give me upscaled 4K, rock solid 30fps and go to town on the graphics. PS5, Series X/S will never be native 4K machines on next gen exclusive titles so enjoy your first year 4K titles. These cross gen games are small fry. Those resolutions will take a nose dive off a cliff once the 2nd or 3rd wave of next gen titles hit.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: DavidGzz

GymWolf

Member
Jun 11, 2019
13,599
19,711
565
Who gives a fuck?? People was already slapping their dicks when they saw the reflections in the helmet in that famous screenshot, reflections are good enough even without rtx and they saved resources to upgrade other aspects, praise the fake reflecting sun.
 

Soodanim

Member
Feb 24, 2012
6,829
2,135
1,005
RT has become this abstract concept, exclusively tied to good lighting. Does that mean games can’t have good lighting without it? Fuck no. UE5 demo is one example, and if Demon’s Souls doesn’t have RT then it’s another example.

Judging visuals by existence of RT alone is like judging the gameplay by the programming language used.

What I’m saying, in case anyone missed it, is that it doesn’t matter.
 

GymWolf

Member
Jun 11, 2019
13,599
19,711
565
I mean, it's "not necessary" If you are fine with the game look far worse in comparison.
Lol nah, for a lot of people stuff like rdr2 or tlou2 looks better than control or metro with rtx, it's not a written law that if you don:t have rtx you can't look as good as games with rtx, that's only a pc master race narrative, lights\shadows\reflection are not on the top of the list for every gamer when it comes to graphic.


For every ray of light rendered by control there is a shitty animation or polygonal model or face to counter that.
 
Last edited:
  • Fire
Reactions: makaveli60

onesvenus

Member
Aug 26, 2004
966
1,153
1,575
Please do tell, I'm on the fence between a x900h or LGCX because there is a $2000 difference between the two at 65in here in Oz. I need that extra push to commit the extra money.
It's amazing. The x900h is also a good buy but oled blacks are amazing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: farmerboy

makaveli60

Member
Jan 7, 2018
1,649
2,514
505
Isn't it ridiculous that something like the performance killer almighty raytracing is so indistinguishable from faked cost effective solutions that you have debates like this?
 
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: Thirty7ven

Lethal01

Report me for trolling MS/Xbox threads > 07/02
Jun 15, 2019
1,866
3,141
545
Lol nah, for a lot of people stuff like rdr2 or tlou2 looks better than control or metro with rtx, it's not a written law that if you don:t have rtx you can't look as good as games with rtx, that's only a pc master race narrative, lights\shadows\reflection are not on the top of the list for every gamer when it comes to graphic.


For every ray of light rendered by control there is a shitty animation or polygonal model or face to counter that.

Nah, for a realistic game turning on raytracing will always make it look better unless you fuck up really hard.

Obviously I can't compared different games.
 

Calverz

Member
Apr 27, 2014
1,312
2,224
600
Tbh i thought it had RT in the first trailer. There is a bit where he runs towards a guy near a flame and there is a puddle on the ground that looks ray traced.
 
Aug 28, 2019
8,261
12,036
840
I Don't want native 4K.
If you want native 4K, build a PC.

I Dont want Ray tracing.
If you want Ray tracing, build a PC.

I Don't want 60FPS.
If you want 60FPS, build a fucking PC.

All are huge resource hogs and if all are prioritized, you wont see much in the way of graphical leaps expected from these new consoles.

I have always said, give me upscaled 4K, rock solid 30fps and go to town on the graphics. PS5, Series X/S will never be native 4K machines on next gen exclusive titles so enjoy your first year 4K titles. These cross gen games are small fry. Those resolutions will take a nose dive off a cliff once the 2nd or 3rd wave of next gen titles hit.

"I don't want games.
If you want games, build a PC."
 

GymWolf

Member
Jun 11, 2019
13,599
19,711
565
Nah, for a realistic game turning on raytracing will always make it look better unless you fuck up really hard.

Obviously I can't compared different games.
I mean, yeah if you add rtx to tlou2 or rdr2 they will look better.

But simulating real life is not only a matter of lights and shadows, people in real life have "great animations" too, real people move more like the characters in tlou2 or rdr2 compared to how people move in metro or control, since when lights and shadows are more important than how characters move and react to simulate real life graphics??

Do you think that in real life you will notice first some incorrect shadows and lights before noticing people moving like fucking robots?! I don't think so.

This is why the brain of many people is more tricked by good animations and details compared to good lights and shadows.

Sorry for the child level of english while explaining my thoughts :lollipop_grinning_sweat:
 
Last edited:
  • Fire
Reactions: CatLady

Yoboman

Member
Sep 17, 2005
19,392
13,522
1,890
Not sure why people are acting like Ray tracing isn't important in here

Its a great graphical feature and I hope it has it

Of course you can still have great lighting without it, but its even better with ray tracing
 
  • Like
Reactions: Thirty7ven

Lethal01

Report me for trolling MS/Xbox threads > 07/02
Jun 15, 2019
1,866
3,141
545
Do you think that in real life you will notice first some incorrect shadows and lights before noticing people moving like fucking robots?! I don't think so.

Yes, anyone who suddenly lived in a world with the lighting of Red Dear Redemption 2 would notice that they aren't in the real world far faster than they would if people were walking strangely.

Lighting/rendering is what make things look like real life. Light is the most important aspect of seeing by default.
 
Last edited:

sircaw

has bigger MS points balance than reaction score.
Jul 3, 2019
6,143
33,085
825
A local pond.
i must admit looking at how gorgeous the game is and i can not tell if half the shit is ray traced or not, is ray racing overrated or something.
 

GymWolf

Member
Jun 11, 2019
13,599
19,711
565
Yes, anyone who suddenly lived in a world with the lighting of Red Dear Redemption 2 would notice that they aren't in the real world far faster than they would if people were walking strangely.

Lighting/rendering is what make things look like real life. Light is the most important aspect of seeing by default.
Not for everyone i guess, until we have completely raytraced games without any form of rasterization, a lot of games need specific places and scene to notice rtx, animations and details are literally all around you every moment you turn the camera and every time you move the characters, for me are far more noticeable than a puddle who badly reflect my chara or an incorrect shadow on a wall.
 
  • Fire
Reactions: Ryu Kaiba

RoadHazard

Member
Dec 9, 2008
19,568
2,205
1,245
Gothenburg, Sweden
I really don't care about that bullet point being there or not. Does ray tracing make the game look noticeably better (like in Spider-Man with all those reflective buildings)? Then you should probably devote resources to it. If it doesn't, you should probably save those resources for other things that will make the game look noticeably better. Even with RT hardware, RT isn't free, it takes up a significant amount of compute resources.
 

Endless Fluff

Member
Feb 27, 2017
1,238
2,332
575
Germany
By the two quotes in OP and what has been said before I get the feeling that the creative director doesn’t know what ray tracing is.

When the game was revealed it was “we have ray traced shadows” now its “we have light in real-time thanks to ray tracing” and then “we have no ray tracing”.

what a mess.
 
Last edited:
  • LOL
Reactions: Riky and Concern