GreatnessRD
Member
I've never seen so much care. Should be a fun thread to look back on from both sides of the cOnSoLe WaR. This PS vs. Xbox is right up there with the Democrats vs. the Republicans. 
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AMD: Both XSX and PS5 RDNA2 based and have Hardware RT
- Thread starter Agnostic2020
- Start date
ResilientBanana
Member
So more performance by utilizing less power isn’t an improvement in efficiency? I guess I’m confused as to why not.
ethomaz
Banned
Ready your post first lol
A new node having better efficiently is not better performance per flop lol
New process nodes:
+ increase performance per watt
+ decrease size of the transistors
New nodes doesn’t give you better performance per flop.
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nikolino840
Member
ethomaz
Banned
It is Wired article and he didn’t say that.
nikolino840
Member
Journalists say that
was fake news?
ShadowWolf712
Member
That's from this Wired article and he says nothing about a "second chip".
Nothing about any second chip in there. It says GPU hardware Ray-tracing, period. Anything extra was added by someone else.
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ethomaz
Banned
He said that: https://www.wired.com/story/exclusive-playstation-5/Journalists say that
“There is ray-tracing acceleration in the GPU hardware,”
nikolino840
Member
So like Xbox,that the only differences are only in teraflops,with a normal APU with the raytracing powered by AMD
ethomaz
Banned
Well the differences will be pretty small like happened last gen.So like Xbox,that the only differences are only in teraflops,with a normal APU with the raytracing powered by AMD
Said that we don’t know the differences yet.
ShadowWolf712
Member
We don't even know that there's a difference in Tflops at this point. The only hard source claiming it is that Github post where people assumed one of the GPUs being tested HAD to be Sony's. But given that GPU has no Hardware RT showing up anywhere in the specs, it's looking like that may not have been it.So like Xbox,that the only differences are only in teraflops,with a normal APU with the raytracing powered by AMD
Tripolygon
Banned
It wasn't ironic, it was rhetorical.
Sony is not using DXR. That is a Microsoft windows API. And why ask? Because it is a known current limitation of rtx and dxr which I suspect he knows the answers to, hence the very specific question.
They can use similar hardware but have different extensions and use totally different software to address the hardware. Its for the same reason why a game using vulkan api can perform better than the same game using dx12 api or vice versa.
Agnostic2020
Member
exactly . he wants to highlight the shortcoming so later on they can explain how they overcame that issue
Tripolygon
Banned
Yup. It becomes rather clear to see if you read one of the follow up tweets
ethomaz
posted .Plus Imagination technology has had a solution to the problem. Nvidia is also working on it based on information gleaned from their patent. I'm sure Microsoft is working on it too and I I hope RDNA2 answers the questions.When you say “will work like”, I don’t think you’re including what the cycle times, impact on cache/memory bandwidth, etc. I also don’t think that DX12 DXR is the end of the line for the API structure even on Microsoft platforms. We both shall see
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Md Ray
Member
IMO, there is overwhelming evidence that points to PS5 being RDNA 2 if you care to look in the right places.
First up is this slide from AMD, pay attention to the "SHADER" and "HARDWARE" points, as there's going to be some explanations below:
They mention that their current way of handling ray tracing on GCN and RDNA line of GPUs is through SHADER. In other words, there's no dedicated hardware to handle ray-tracing, so it is now handled through compute shaders to perform RT. This is what you'd call a software-based RT solution.
And this is where the Next Gen RDNA aka RDNA 2 comes in, with it bringing HARDWARE (or dedicated HW ACCELERATION) support as it indicates above. This is likely a similar HW technique to RTX's RT Core that's designed to perform/accelerate ray-tracing on dedicated cores instead of just relying on the shaders. This is what you'd call a hardware-based RT solution.
Now, many seem to have overlooked the recently released Crytek's Neon Noir ray-tracing benchmark that relies on compute shaders to do RT via DX11. This means it doesn't leverage DX12 DXR, or any of Nvidia's RT Core features to perform hardware ray-tracing. Its RT is purely software-based. To simplify it's specifically made to showcase RT on the "SHADER category" GPUs (GCN/RDNA1, etc.):
www.eurogamer.net
Now let's take a look at the WIRED articles for a moment. When the first article came out in April of 2019, Mark Cerny made mention of RT support on PS5 surprising many of us and lead some people to assume what he said about PS5's RT implementation to be some sort of a "software-level fix" like all of the current non-RTX and RDNA 1/GCN GPUs already do via software (e.g. Neon Noir above).
To clear this confusion up - he made another statement, again, via WIRED in Oct. 2019:
His wording seems to suggest that "No, it's not a software-based RT solution because we've got dedicated ray-tracing acceleration in the GPU hardware instead". Another clear hint pointing towards it being RDNA 2. Bear in mind that while all the current RDNA 1 GPUs that are out in the market currently can support RT (through software), they do not have any hardware acceleration to handle ray-tracing in the GPU, as you can see in the first slide.
Fast-forward to Jan 7th of this year. 5600 XT press briefing QnA and Sony CES 2020:
During the QnA session after the 5600 XT's briefing, AMD's Mithun Chandrasekhar can be heard saying: "Both the next-gen Xbox, as well as the next-gen PlayStation, both of them are going to be powered by Radeon, and both of them support hardware ray-tracing natively". Notice he uses the phrase "both of them", and "hardware ray-tracing" in one sentence. We got confirmation that XSX to be RDNA 2 now. So one down, just one more to go?
Keep in mind that this QnA was conducted two months ago, on Jan. 7th, back when we were still speculating that XSX would end up being RDNA 1 with features like RT and VRS borrowed from RDNA 2, just like we do now for the PS5. On Feb 24th, not only did we get the TERAFLOPS count, but we also got the confirmation of RDNA 2.
And on the same day at the Sony conference CES 2020, we again sort of get a confirmation and a hint that it's RDNA 2:
That's all, for now. And I apologize if anyone of you has a hard time understanding my English. It's not my first language.
First up is this slide from AMD, pay attention to the "SHADER" and "HARDWARE" points, as there's going to be some explanations below:
They mention that their current way of handling ray tracing on GCN and RDNA line of GPUs is through SHADER. In other words, there's no dedicated hardware to handle ray-tracing, so it is now handled through compute shaders to perform RT. This is what you'd call a software-based RT solution.
And this is where the Next Gen RDNA aka RDNA 2 comes in, with it bringing HARDWARE (or dedicated HW ACCELERATION) support as it indicates above. This is likely a similar HW technique to RTX's RT Core that's designed to perform/accelerate ray-tracing on dedicated cores instead of just relying on the shaders. This is what you'd call a hardware-based RT solution.
Now, many seem to have overlooked the recently released Crytek's Neon Noir ray-tracing benchmark that relies on compute shaders to do RT via DX11. This means it doesn't leverage DX12 DXR, or any of Nvidia's RT Core features to perform hardware ray-tracing. Its RT is purely software-based. To simplify it's specifically made to showcase RT on the "SHADER category" GPUs (GCN/RDNA1, etc.):
Crytek's Neon Noir demo: ray tracing without RTX analysed
It's been almost a year since games using hardware accelerated ray tracing first arrived in the market, and it's clear …
www.eurogamer.net
Now let's take a look at the WIRED articles for a moment. When the first article came out in April of 2019, Mark Cerny made mention of RT support on PS5 surprising many of us and lead some people to assume what he said about PS5's RT implementation to be some sort of a "software-level fix" like all of the current non-RTX and RDNA 1/GCN GPUs already do via software (e.g. Neon Noir above).
To clear this confusion up - he made another statement, again, via WIRED in Oct. 2019:
His wording seems to suggest that "No, it's not a software-based RT solution because we've got dedicated ray-tracing acceleration in the GPU hardware instead". Another clear hint pointing towards it being RDNA 2. Bear in mind that while all the current RDNA 1 GPUs that are out in the market currently can support RT (through software), they do not have any hardware acceleration to handle ray-tracing in the GPU, as you can see in the first slide.
Fast-forward to Jan 7th of this year. 5600 XT press briefing QnA and Sony CES 2020:
During the QnA session after the 5600 XT's briefing, AMD's Mithun Chandrasekhar can be heard saying: "Both the next-gen Xbox, as well as the next-gen PlayStation, both of them are going to be powered by Radeon, and both of them support hardware ray-tracing natively". Notice he uses the phrase "both of them", and "hardware ray-tracing" in one sentence. We got confirmation that XSX to be RDNA 2 now. So one down, just one more to go?
Keep in mind that this QnA was conducted two months ago, on Jan. 7th, back when we were still speculating that XSX would end up being RDNA 1 with features like RT and VRS borrowed from RDNA 2, just like we do now for the PS5. On Feb 24th, not only did we get the TERAFLOPS count, but we also got the confirmation of RDNA 2.
And on the same day at the Sony conference CES 2020, we again sort of get a confirmation and a hint that it's RDNA 2:
That's all, for now. And I apologize if anyone of you has a hard time understanding my English. It's not my first language.
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darkinstinct
...lacks reading comprehension.
You are making the assumption that hardware-based raytracing implies RDNA2. It does not. It's the other way around. Something that uses RDNA2 has hardware accelerated raytracing, which is not the same thing as hardware based raytracing. We also have various insiders (I think OsirisBlack is one of them) that claim PS5 raytracing is faster and more elegant that XSX raytracing. That won't be the case if they are using AMD's raytracing.IMO, there's a number of shreds of evidence that points to PS5 being RDNA 2 if you care to look in the right places.
First up is this slide from AMD, pay attention to the "SHADER" and "HARDWARE" points, as there's going to be some explanations below:
They mention that their current way of handling ray tracing on GCN and RDNA line of GPUs is through SHADER. In other words, there's no dedicated hardware to handle ray-tracing, so it is now handled through compute shaders in order to perform RT. This is what you'd call a software-based RT solution.
And this is where the Next Gen RDNA aka RDNA 2 comes in, with it bringing HARDWARE (or dedicated HW ACCELERATION) support as it indicates above. This is likely a similar HW technique to RTX's RT Core that's designed to perform/accelerate ray-tracing instead of just relying on the shaders. This is what you'd call a hardware-based RT solution.
Now, many seem to have overlooked the recently released Crytek's Neon Noir ray-tracing benchmark that relies on compute shaders to do RT via DX11. This means it doesn't leverage DX12 DXR, or any of Nvidia's RT Core features to perform hardware ray-tracing. Its RT is purely software-based. To simplify it's specifically made to showcase on the "SHADER category" GPUs (GCN/RDNA1, etc.):
Crytek's Neon Noir demo: ray tracing without RTX analysed
It's been almost a year since games using hardware accelerated ray tracing first arrived in the market, and it's clear …
Now let's take a look at the WIRED articles for a moment. When the first article came out in April of 2019, Mark Cerny made mention of RT support on PS5 surprising many of us and lead some people to assume what he said about PS5's RT implementation to be some sort of a "software-level fix" like all of the current non-RTX and RDNA 1/GCN GPUs already do via software (e.g. Neon Noir above).
To clear this confusion up - he made another statement, again, via WIRED in Oct. 2019:
His wording clearly seems to suggest that "No, it's not a software-based RT solution, because we've got dedicated ray-tracing acceleration in the GPU hardware instead". Another clear hint pointing towards it being RDNA 2. Bear in mind that while all the current RDNA 1 GPUs that are out in the market currently can support RT, but they do not have any hardware acceleration to handle ray-tracing in the GPU, as you can see in the first slide.
Fast-forward to Jan 7th of this year. 5600 XT press briefing QnA and Sony CES 2020:
During the QnA session after the 5600 XT's briefing, AMD's Mithun Chandrasekhar can be heard saying: "Both the next-gen Xbox, as well as the next-gen PlayStation, both of them are going to be powered by Radeon, and both of them support hardware ray-tracing natively". Notice he uses the phrase "both of them", and "hardware ray-tracing" in one sentence. We got confirmation that XSX to be RDNA 2 now. One down, just one more to go?
Keep in mind that this QnA was conducted two months ago, on Jan. 7th, back when we were still speculating that XSX would actually end up being RDNA 1 with features like RT and VRS borrowed from RDNA 2, just like we do now for the PS5. On Feb 24th, not only did we get the TERAFLOPS count, but we also got the confirmation of RDNA 2.
And on the same day at the Sony conference CES 2020, we again sort of get a confirmation and a hint that it's RDNA 2:
That's all, for now. And I apologize if anyone of you has a hard time understanding my English. It's not my first language.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
I've asked about this but didn't get a reply. My guess right now is that PS5 RT API is "closer to the metal" than Microsoft's DX version? Could well be wrong, though.
Tripolygon
Banned
Yes it can. Take for example, checkerboard rendering. Xbox One, PS4, PS4 Pro and Xbox One X can all do it. But only PS4 Pro has specific hardware extension to help do it more efficiently with smaller cost.
darkinstinct
...lacks reading comprehension.
Well, if Sony uses Adshir LocalRay, then reflections would be much easier. LocalRay doesn't need denoising.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
I've not heard anything about this but I guess anything is possible. To be fair if PS5 is/was running RT notably better than on XSX then it could just be down to SDK maturity than anything.
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
This is getting heated!
We need more console warzzz1
We need more console warzzz1
darkinstinct
...lacks reading comprehension.
Completely different thing. The reason why Pro has it is because Sony took that from GCN Vega. If all had been on Vega, they would all have it. If they are all on RDNA2, they have the same raytracing. This is AMDs first step into hardware accelerated raytracing, they don't start with two completely different approaches.
Tripolygon
Banned
No it is a bespoke Sony extension not part of Vega, likewise the gradient adjust feature, you will not find it in any AMD GPU. It can be done via software though.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Huh?
Both will be using customized versions of the silicon based on the AMD architecture.
Why are you trying to ... oh nvm. It's you.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Cerny:
PS5 will have hardware RT support
Sony:
PS5 will indeed have hardware RT support
AMD:
Yes, both next-gen consoles will indeed have hardware RT support
FUD Dealers:
FTFY
Lort
Banned
Naww why correct him... I’ve always enjoyed having a chuckle how few people actually understood that every AMD GPU has those capabilities .. but they take Cerny is some GPU god for this capability that he didn’t invent he back ported from the slightly newer GCN edition.
Also since ps4 pro is always destroyed by Xbox one X (which doesn’t have it) ... it’s just a reminder who actually did better customizations to the GPU.
Lort
Banned
I see you failing to my correct entirely accurate summary of the ridiculousness of the “whatever you can do I can do better”approach in this forum.
Also which is it AMD ray tracing or Adshir? Or are you trying tosay it’s both? Make a prediction if you’ve got the balls.
It has I suggest ( and always have) most likely the same AMD ray tracing .. but as I also pointed out if it’s “simpler and more elegant” it’s going to be Adshir.
I do not think it will be some cray better / different / simplified RDNA2 AMD ray tracing.
but hey if you want to predict that ... go for it ... I’m listening
Tripolygon
Banned
You're a special kind of idiot.
One console is 6TF the other is 4TF, it is not shocking that 6TF will perform better than 4TF given the same workload and architecture. It speaks nothing of special better customization. Its a function of, number of cores X frequency X 2.
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
What do you mean this forum? You mean just select people?
You sure like the paint a broad brush when you don't check the shit in your own backyard. My comment was a benign and neutral one, yours was like this:
Now you want to dial it back and get all "technical" after your typical console war shitposting bait?
I don't disagree that it is more than likely based off the same silicon, and all I asserted was both will have their own customization's with how they execute it, not being "base generic".
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Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
This is so disingenuous c’mon... yeah, let’s forget it came out a year later and increased the price of the box by $100.
See, others can like PS4 Pro and Xbox One X without having to twist and bend facts to suit their narrative and smear the other console...
demigod
Member
Came out a year later at $499, it has now dropped to $299 at times already. So much for being a premium product.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
And borrowed the RAM design/controller to a T because it was that good. Which is a great thing for gamers and developers alike.
Trainsmove
Banned
In my opinion, The statement above does not explicitly say that the next playstation will have RDNA 2. My Guess is that the playstation needs GCN architecture as a part of its DNA due to playstations backward compatibility Method. Supposedly Rdna 2 is not holding on to any part of GCN architecture. I guess we will see.
Lort
Banned
let’s get technical .. and we have covered this before...in games that use checkerboard such as Rainbow 6 ... the xbox one x has relatively more GPU throughput than just the GPU and mem bandwidth increases .. the xbox GPU therefor has better “optimizations” than the Ps 4 pro.
In summary neither have significant optimizations ... and I certainly didn’t say they came out at the same time or where the same price. They are the same node size though.. so my comparison is 100% relevant.
I’m sorry if the truth hurts but that’s just the way it is. If it makes you feel any better about accepting this know that I though the xbox focus on tv was lame .. and that their investment in the cloud whislt technically feasible was a failure.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
That is impossible. Even Turing has base GeForce legacy in there.
Lort
Banned
When it comes to these discussions about specific GPU capabilities .. please take it elsewhere ...
PS I am 100% right which is why no one has ever corrected me in this specifics GPU technicalities ( I can and have been wrong o other things!) .. so either go try then DM me evidence I’m wrong ?( and I’ll past it here myself) or just believe me and get on with your life.
let’s get back to the question at hand..
AMD RDNA 2 ray tracing
Or
Adshir
?
PS I am 100% right which is why no one has ever corrected me in this specifics GPU technicalities ( I can and have been wrong o other things!) .. so either go try then DM me evidence I’m wrong ?( and I’ll past it here myself) or just believe me and get on with your life.
let’s get back to the question at hand..
AMD RDNA 2 ray tracing
Or
Adshir
?
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Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
The agility with which you dodge the point and try to turn the table around (forgetting how you went from the console war troll statement to a let’s get technical rational discussion angle) is mind blowing I will give you that.
So, you have established that a faster console is faster than a slower console...
(as if with extra development time you couldn’t fine tune your chip and push the manufacturing process further amongst other things as well and with higher MSRP you have more budget to allocate to a bigger and riskier silicon, etc... i.e.: context... ).You are taking final performance devoid of any context as removing context suits your “PS4 Pro is a shit design” angle. Yes, we argued about this before, by the same token Xbox One X would be a shit design (it isn’t) when you compare it to Xbox Series X (“...and titles such as Halo Infinite will show the performance delta, IQ, etc... etc..”. that is the kind of argument you just made more or less).
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Lort
Banned
The agility with which you dodge the point and try to turn the table around (forgetting how you went from the console war troll statement to a let’s get technical rational discussion angle) is mind blowing I will give you that.
So, you have established that a faster console is faster than a slower console...
You are taking final performance devoid of any context as removing context suits your “PS4 Pro is a shit design” angle. Yes, we argued about this before, by the same token Xbox One X would be a shit design (it isn’t) when you compare it to Xbox Series X (“...and titles such as Halo Infinite will show the performance delta, IQ, etc... etc..”. that is the kind of argument you just made more or less).
All your posting won’t make your ps4 pro go any faster.
or make checkerboard optimizations any less of an AMD invention ( not Cerny / Sony).
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
It is a good observation and it would be almost on point if I were claiming that, but do go on
.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
So, AMD just announced that RDNA2 is not 7nm EUV that it is just 7nm.
That possibly explains the die size.
That possibly explains the die size.
KlickKlack
Banned
in the intro video to:
"AMD Financial Analyst Day 2020"
was a snipet about Xbox Series X
..... only Series X.... [nothing about ps5]
"AMD Financial Analyst Day 2020"
was a snipet about Xbox Series X
..... only Series X.... [nothing about ps5]
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Tripolygon
Banned
ID Buffer
Inventor - Tobias Berghoff
Assignee - Sony Interactive Entertainment
Gradient Adjust
Inventor - Mark Evan Cerny
Assignee - Sony Interactive Entertainment
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Agnostic2020
Member
So rdna 2 is basically rdna 1.5. Rdna 1 plus raytracing and vrs. 7nm + is called rdna 3.
Panaphonics
Banned
You mean this one?
that’s not the intro.
Maldonado he said they were working with Microsoft. Didn’t mention Sony at all.
it_wasn't_me
Banned
There is a lot of posts here that needs eat some crows...
RDNA2 is 7nm and not 7nm+
Imposibruuuuuu
darkinstinct
...lacks reading comprehension.
There it is. It was co-engineered by Microsoft and AMD. Megaton.
