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Sony custom RDNA2 have their own VRS and mesh shading - Cerny and Naughty dog

geordiemp

geordiemp

Member
There is allot of mis understanding on RDNA2 features, especially where Sony wanted their own VRS and own mesh shader type operations.

See below. Hopefully puts the confusion to rest why Sony used their own methods rather than standard AMD. Its called customisation.

Mark Evan Cerny Inventions, Patents and Patent Applications - Justia Patents Search

USPTO patent applications submitted by and patents granted to Mark Evan Cerny
patents.justia.com patents.justia.com

These are Cerny and Naught dog.
HIU2MAL.png


Ciyz03i.png


IlefWvW.png
 
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Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
geordiemp said:
There is allot of mis understanding on RDNA2 features, especially where Sony wanted their own VRS and own mesh shader type operations.

See below. Hopefully puts the confusion to rest why Sony used their own methods rather than standard AMD. Its called customisation.

These are Cerny and Naught dog.
HIU2MAL.png


Ciyz03i.png


IlefWvW.png
Click to expand...

Just for completeness, could you post the patent links please :)?
 
Knitted Knight

Knitted Knight

Banned
We need a deep dive on the Geometry Engine. It's their baby after all.

Majority of devs don't even know what it does except for principal programmers. Those hardly talk...

Matt can spill the beans and has the contacts within Sony obviously but he's very shy other than hinting about GE's actual worth to dispel FUD. But it's clearly not his job anymore - specially if Sony has an NDA on it. It would look unprofessional on his part among his peers and friends. At this point he's just an observer feeding RGT drips (the source(s) RGT hypes/talks about).

In the end though, real time performance with software is King. So we'll get that soon on November 10-12.
 
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Bittermich

Banned
I think you are missing the point here. Microsoft’s goal here is to uniform PC and Xbox development as much as possible.
Devs creating games for PC won’t have to do much to optimize for Xbox, they can use all the features they are using on PC.
Just think about PS3 and Cell.
And btw only because there is a patent it doesn’t mean that it will be implemented.
Let’s wait for a confirmation from Sony.
 
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Lort

Lort

Banned
Rally the troops!!

Deploy the PR defense force, these patents are old news and the techniques have already been in use for years such as low resolution transparencies .. and fov rendering for VR.

Xbox has the latest VRS in hardware and can use it inside the lighting and shadow engine as well as in rasterization. Theres a reason MS VRS patent people talk about .. and Sonys, people dont.
 
A

Allandor

Member
Codename: Classified said:
We need a deep dive on the Geometry Engine. It's their baby after all.
Click to expand...
Geometry Engines were already available on RDNA1 it is really nothing new. Mesh Shaders are more or less a evolution of this.

Yes, sony might have their custom solution (as I already stated in multiple threads). They might just need those (for more or less feature parity) because of patents owned by MS. So Sony can't call them the same or implement them the same way as AMD did in RDNA2.

@ geordiemp geordiemp
Just for fact-checking, it would be great if you weren't just posting screenshots, instead links to the articles. ;), this would make it much easier.


But actually, you can do VRS, RT, etc via shaders for years. It just costs more calculation time. Especially patents filed this year won't be implemented in hardware in chip manufactured this year.
Without reading the original source, we can't say if it is a pure software-patent or hardware implementation patent.
 
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Njocky

Banned
This has been discussed before. Relying on Cerny’s inventions over the future standards of the PC development industry would be an odd choice from Sony. That would mean “we don’t care what AMD and it’s entire research department came up with in these areas. We’re going to go with what Cerny says would be better although we only have his word to back it up”.

Finally the main point of The MS blog post is that all the RDNA2 features are HARDWARE supported in XSX/XSS. Those patents do not say if a)they were in fact implemented in the ps5 and b)what HW support they have in the console.
 
Knitted Knight

Knitted Knight

Banned
Bittermich said:
I think you are missing the point here. Microsoft’s goal here is to uniform PC and Xbox development as much as possible.
Devs creating games for PC won’t have to do much to optimize for Xbox, they can use all the features they are using on PC.
Just think about PS3 and Cell.
And btw only because there is a patent it doesn’t mean that it will be implemented.
Let’s wait for a confirmation from Sony.
Click to expand...

What does MS using its DirectXII API have to do with PS3 and Cell?
 
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geordiemp

geordiemp

Member
LisaMariaMartin said:
This whole OP is just to save face after his claims that AMD would unveil secret PS5 technology during their stream yesterday. He probably developed an ulcer after seeing they worked closer with MS than Sony.
Click to expand...

It was presented what ps5 and PC are doing different. If you dont understand what is presented below and why this wont be in XSX, that is on you.

I have tried to explain these points, but most posters dont realy want to understand, so its time for breakfast.

This subject will come back in more detail, you can book mark it, and then consider what you posted :messenger_beaming:


ygB70Ld.png
 
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NEbeast

Member
Njocky said:
This has been discussed before. Relying on Cerny’s inventions over the future standards of the PC development industry would be an odd choice from Sony. That would mean “we don’t care what AMD and it’s entire research department came up with in these areas. We’re going to go with what Cerny says would be better although we only have his word to back it up”.

Finally the main point of The MS blog post is that all the RDNA2 features are HARDWARE supported in XSX/XSS. Those patents do not say if a)they were in fact implemented in the ps5 and b)what HW support they have in the console.
Click to expand...
But hasn't Sony influenced AMDs future roadmaps before? Just because Xbox wanted to keep parity with PC, that doesn't mean what Sony have come up with is worse.
VRS made infinite look terrible, I wouldn't miss it . PS5s ssd is basically doing SFS, so why put it in the console ? We just need more info about the GE.

Then we have all the stuff that Xbox doesn't have, that has the potential to be in AMDs future roadmap.
 
RaZoR No1

RaZoR No1

Member
prinz_valium said:
This seems like the double sided chip cooling patent, that wasn't use.
I wait for an official word from Sony or independent verification of the use in a game before I jump on this train.

xkhahxsexmu41.jpg
Click to expand...
That half X-Clamp (directly beneath the shielding) that we can see in the teardown Video, can that be counted as a downgraded version of the cooling patent?

IMO they probably managed to cool it down without the patent and just implemented a light version thanks to the liquid metal and RDNA 2 efficiency.
 
Garani

Garani

Member
Bittermich said:
I think you are missing the point here. Microsoft’s goal here is to uniform PC and Xbox development as much as possible.
Devs creating games for PC won’t have to do much to optimize for Xbox, they can use all the features they are using on PC.
Click to expand...

Exactly. And this is why I am buying a PS5, and not an XSX: I already have a pc where I can game, I am not interested in a plastic box that is a PC but is not as flexible as a PC.
 
B

Balducci30

Member
I prefer to do away with this type of speculation and just see which games actually look better when the console is out. Right now PlayStation is the only one showing anything truly “next gen” and their studios tend to find ways to squeeze better graphics out of the hardware each generation. So I’m inclined to think ultimately they will have better looking games near the end of the generation but Xbox will surely be right up there with them - the difference will be negligible basically and depend on the artists.

EDIT: like I honestly don’t really see why this RDNA2 talk really matters if Sony went with some custom system they felt better served them. I’m sure they had the option of making the console RDNA2 and decided not to for their own reasons.

EDIT: one last edit. I purchased both consoles so I don’t have a dog in this fight. I’m sure I’ll love them both but this is the objective reality of the situation if you take a step back and look at it - no one is going to care about RDNA2 implementation two years from now. They’re gonna care about what they are seeing on screen.
 
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Beardsalt

Beardsalt

Member
The narrative of the PS5 or XSX not being RDNA2 is just getting stupid. These (plastic) boxes are multi-media devices made for enjoyment, entertainment and mind stimulation.

i am a gamer, I play them all (PlayStation, Xbox, Switch and PC) because of my many diverse friends

........but damn It if people think things will change this generation!

Fortnite, Call of Duty and Grand Theft Auto will be the money makers again in this generation and people will buy them on PlayStation just like they did on PS4 which ended off in a bang(Nioh 2, FF7R, TLOU2, GOT and 13 Sentinals)

So all this talk about which box is better is moot and people should just play what they like and enjoy it!

I miss the days when everybody loved games because all there was, was the NES! 😝
 
LeftThumbstick

LeftThumbstick

Member
geordiemp said:
It was preented what ps5 and PC are doing different. If you dont understand what is presented below and why this wont be in XSX, that is on you.

I have tried to explain these points, but most posters dont realy want to understand, so its time for breakfast.

This subject will come back in more detail, you can book mark it, and then consider what you posted :messenger_beaming:


ygB70Ld.png
Click to expand...

Oh no, not again.... not like this!
 
Tomeru

Tomeru

Member
Njocky said:
This has been discussed before. Relying on Cerny’s inventions over the future standards of the PC development industry would be an odd choice from Sony. That would mean “we don’t care what AMD and it’s entire research department came up with in these areas. We’re going to go with what Cerny says would be better although we only have his word to back it up”.
Click to expand...

You implying one of two things here (or both): AMD knows better than Sony, and Sony cant do better than AMD.
 
FranXico

FranXico

Member
LisaMariaMartin said:
So on one hand, we have MS directly tagging AMD, claiming they have the only full RDNA2 based console.

On the other hand, this twitter user with an anime avatar is claiming the opposite.

It's really hard who to believe in this case.
Click to expand...
One of the people who analyzed the github leaks. I'm sure he was a valuable source back then.

Both consoles are RDNA2, nobody is contesting that.
 
N

Njocky

Banned
NEbeast said:
But hasn't Sony influenced AMDs future roadmaps before? Just because Xbox wanted to keep parity with PC, that doesn't mean what Sony have come up with is worse.
VRS made infinite look terrible, I wouldn't miss it . PS5s ssd is basically doing SFS, so why put it in the console ? We just need more info about the GE.

Then we have all the stuff that Xbox doesn't have, that has the potential to be in AMDs future roadmap.
Click to expand...
It’s the first time I hear that VRS has anything to do with the Halo Infinite demo. You should let Digital Foundry know. And SFS is exactly the opposite approach of the PS5 SSD. it would still multiply the texture bandwidth. The point you could make is that the GPU bottleneck made it an overkill but Sony hasn’t stated that.
 
Yoboman

Yoboman

Member
LisaMariaMartin said:
So on one hand, we have MS directly tagging AMD, claiming they have the only full RDNA2 based console.

On the other hand, this twitter user with an anime avatar is claiming the opposite.

It's really hard who to believe in this case.
Click to expand...
That twitter user leaked all the specs shown yesterday for AMD

And nothing MS said contradicts what Yuko has said. They can support all of the features of RDNA2 and still be based on RDNA CUs - with RT as Yuko'a tweet indicated originally
 
Garani

Garani

Member
LisaMariaMartin said:
This whole OP is just to save face after his claims that AMD would unveil secret PS5 technology during their stream yesterday. He probably developed an ulcer after seeing they worked closer with MS than Sony.
Click to expand...
It's probably more likely that MS had to take the AMD package as it is, because of their choice of using Windows 10 and it's drivers within the XSX/S. Since they want to pursue develpment parity between PC and XSX/S, they didn't have much choice in the matter.
 
B

Balducci30

Member
Beardsalt said:
The narrative of the PS5 or XSX not being RDNA2 is just getting stupid. These (plastic) boxes are multi-media devices made for enjoyment, entertainment and mind stimulation.

i am a gamer, I play them all (PlayStation, Xbox, Switch and PC) because of my many diverse friends

........but damn It if people think things will change this generation!

Fortnite, Call of Duty and Grand Theft Auto will be the money makers again in this generation and people will buy them on PlayStation just like they did on PS4 which ended off in a bang(Nioh 2, FF7R, TLOU2, GOT and 13 Sentinals)

So all this talk about which box is better is moot and people should just play what they like and enjoy it!

I miss the days when everybody loved games because all there was, was the NES! 😝
Click to expand...
For real tho. This. People have gone straight up cultish brain dead worshipping of these companies and which box does what better. They are both huge corporations, they don’t need you on here fighting for them or anything else. These systems will be judged on the quality of the games available to prove their worth, as it has always been and always will be. And always SHOULD be.
 
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Balducci30

Member
Esppiral said:
It's secret sauce all over again.
Click to expand...
And PS3 ultimately ended up pulling off better looking games by the end of the consoles life. Either way it’s all Bullshit, I think Sony AND Microsoft have enough money and experts at their disposal to iterate or even improve upon things AMD has done. I mean it’s Sony and Microsoft - some of the biggest corporations in the world. In fact it would be beneficial to do so since it will ultimately be cheaper for them in the long run. This is a non story. It will not matter
 
Raonak

Raonak

Banned
Geometry engine is huge.

Automatically culling extra vertices that occupy a single pixel is gonna completely LOD management largely redundant.

Can't wait to see how Sony first party and their ICE team does with this hardware, since it was likely designed with them in mind.
 
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