Mr Moose
Member
Sony's financial report.
It's down this year (April 2019 - March 2020) to $18.14B revenue / $2.19B profit.
It would be boring if MS left the console space unless someone took their place, which is unlikely.
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Possible Megaton Incoming. New Rumor surround Microsoft series S
It's down this year (April 2019 - March 2020) to $18.14B revenue / $2.19B profit.
It would be boring if MS left the console space unless someone took their place, which is unlikely.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
You know that time when Sony wiped out years of Playstation profit propping up PS3, that was when they were forced to heavily subsidize their hardware.
Lets not forget PS3 hardware sales weren't that low, and they managed to concurrently shift 50m PS2's over its early life. Its a great example of quite how dangerous going that route is.
Lets not forget PS3 hardware sales weren't that low, and they managed to concurrently shift 50m PS2's over its early life. Its a great example of quite how dangerous going that route is.
Tulipanzo
Member
The thing people need to realize is that predictions should make some sense.
We may not know everything, but we know a lot of the marketing tactics that MS is using.
MS is not planning to release any exclusives for up to two years, and is launching a cheaper stripped-down version of their main hw.
These don't point to an incredibly attractive launch price; MS are clearly planning for a low starting adoption rate, and are more concerned with maintaining their existing subscriber base.
A low-price XSX:
1) Wouldn't need a Lockhart to begin with
2) Would need exclusives, to move over audiences as quickly as possible
Simply put: MS isn't going to lose hundreds of millions on hardware, but not spend tens of millions to develop exclusives games.
We may not know everything, but we know a lot of the marketing tactics that MS is using.
MS is not planning to release any exclusives for up to two years, and is launching a cheaper stripped-down version of their main hw.
These don't point to an incredibly attractive launch price; MS are clearly planning for a low starting adoption rate, and are more concerned with maintaining their existing subscriber base.
A low-price XSX:
1) Wouldn't need a Lockhart to begin with
2) Would need exclusives, to move over audiences as quickly as possible
Simply put: MS isn't going to lose hundreds of millions on hardware, but not spend tens of millions to develop exclusives games.
Correction: the first XSX only Xbox Studios will be released in december 2021, so it's basically a year. And two XSX only games are already confirmed for launch.
Tulipanzo
Member
Correction to the correction: they never gave a date, just a rough ballpark which I quoted; those two XSX games aren't from XBox Game Studios.
Ultimately, it still speaks to a general unwillingness to invest in next-gen exclusive software, which doesn't work with a cheap price and quick adoption rate.
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Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
Fucking what? They arent investing in software because they have a different strategy that involves subscriptions that relies on software?
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Tulipanzo
Member
Next- gen exclusives software, I just edited it, but I thought it was obvious.
The kind of software they're developing is cross-gen to ensure a stable subscriber count. Which again, doesn't show a willingness for huge losses on hardware.
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
I dont think its obvious as you think so the edit makes sense.
And I concur. Huge losses on the hardware I don't think is happening.
Mistershine.
Banned
They gave a rough ball park of 2 years last December, meaning 1 year from XSX launch.
Neo Blaster
Member
Rich Review Tech is one of your sources? Oh, boy, his channel has been mediocre at best.
And MS money warchest didn't help save Mixer.
And MS money warchest didn't help save Mixer.
Neo Blaster
Member
Wrong, MS don't care if you buy their new console as long as you subscribe to their services, why do you think they are relying so much on Xcloud? They need tons of subscribers for their service model to succeed, so they'll go for the mobile market.
Neo Blaster
Member
Series S is dead on arrival with that price if Sony pull out a $399 on PS5 DE.
Monkeygourmet
Banned
MS should have just released this instead of Series X.
If all their titles and multi platforms work on this wonder machine for $200 then they would have sown up the Fortnite crowd / COD crowd.
just do a Pro model again a few years down the line
If all their titles and multi platforms work on this wonder machine for $200 then they would have sown up the Fortnite crowd / COD crowd.
just do a Pro model again a few years down the line
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Tulipanzo
Member
They never clarified exactly when it was starting, hence the "rough ballpark". It could be shorter or slightly longer and that statement would still hold.
The person I was replying to presented it as a clear cut-off date, which is disingenuous at best.
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
I assume it will depend on the adoption rate of XSX and how many people they still see playing Halo Infinite on last gen machines.
Tulipanzo
Member
It's slightly more complex, as games take years to make.
They might just dump last-gen versions if they are not seeing a return, but proper next-gen exclusives still won't be on the cards for the famous "up to two years".
Sw0pDiller
Member
Day one of true, Will stand nicely next to my ps5. No need for series x when ps5 handles the power hungry 4k games and my series s can play all the last gen games in the coming two years. It will def hold back the muscle flexing of series x.
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
Possibly but we also dont know how much work they are putting in. It could be a FH2 or Tfall situation. Just because its on both doesn't mean they aren't going to make sure each platform isn't properly utilized.
Tulipanzo
Member
Those games required whole extra teams, sometimes whole studios (Sumo Digital for FH2), working aside to not impede main next-gen development. The results were still far from stellar.
Unless MS starts employing numerous porting studios or radically expands their own teams, we're getting updated last-gen games for a while.
Mistershine.
Banned
"As our content comes out over the next year, two years, all of our games, sort of like PC, will play up and down that family of devices," Booty explains. "We want to make sure that if someone invests in Xbox between now and (Series X) that they feel that they made a good investment and that we're committed to them with content."
Xbox Game Studios head Matt Booty says exclusives will be cross-gen for a year after Xbox Series X
If you just grabbed an Xbox One, you're not being cut off immediately.
www.windowscentral.com
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
Don't understand the bolded. The games that I can think of that did this off the top of my head are FH2, Titanfall, Rise of the Tomb Raider, and Shadow of War. Which the first 3 were all very solid while Shadow of War was the only port that was massively butchered by he removal of the nemesis system.
. Never said it wouldn't take more studios. Its unfair to automatically assume they wont take that step. And they aren't going to be releasing 6-10 AAA games in that first year. They wouldn't need a ton of teams. I could also see some of the games being a port and some being built from the ground up with two versions of each game tailored to each platform.
Insane Metal
Member
Lol. There's no way this is legit. I'll eat a ton of crow if I'm wrong but I don't believe that a 12TF with 1TB SSD console will sell for $399.
oldergamer
Member
This is not correct. XSX is launching with the new Halo this fall among whatever else they have planned.
This argument again? what are you going to fall back on if MS shows us a bunch of games that look better then what sony showed, yet can scale down to the slower hardware? That argument of the older or lower powered console holding things back, literally makes no sense especially when they are using the Unreal engine for most of their first party titles. It's built to scale.
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trapanesenyc
Banned
Business 101. Between the investment in Xcloud, the 10+ studios and R and D on a new console, expecting them to be profitable this year is insane. But with gamepass having 10 million users (as of a few months ago probably more now) 4 billion dollar investment for a possible 100 million dollars a month on that service alone is a SUPERB ROI.
oldergamer
Member
Xbox division IS profitable this year. They are pulling in 10 billion a year at the moment.
oldergamer
Member
Sony is not pulling a $399 no chance.
Raphael
Member
If normal ps5 will be 499, then i can see Digital being 399. Take a bigger loss for more long term revenue.
Tulipanzo
Member
Thanks for finding the quote! Yes, as I said, it's a rough ballpark of up to two years."As our content comes out over the next year, two years, all of our games, sort of like PC, will play up and down that family of devices," Booty explains. "We want to make sure that if someone invests in Xbox between now and (Series X) that they feel that they made a good investment and that we're committed to them with content."
Xbox Game Studios head Matt Booty says exclusives will be cross-gen for a year after Xbox Series X
If you just grabbed an Xbox One, you're not being cut off immediately.
I for one hope they drop it asap, but unfortunately MS has provided no clarification on what Booty meant.
FH2, Titanfall, Rise and Shadow of Mordor, all pale in comparison to their next-gen exclusive sequels, in both content and graphical quality. That, on systems without a major CPU jump. This time, with much improved CPUs and SSDs, cross-gen will be severely more limiting, especially in regards to gameplay.
Them hiring a studio for every game they release, even just in the next year, would be a massive undertaking, one the industry has never seen. I find it unlikely, and they haven't talked about it at all.
Still, it's a lot of extra work to get a worse product out.
Halo Infinite is cross-gen, for one thing, and for another I think you're misconstructing my argument.
I never claimed it's impossible to get quality cross-gen titles, it's just much harder and more expensive.
Take REVIII: Capcom said they were getting freezing, poor textures, stuttering on next-gen, but these issues could have been fixed with workarounds, worse textures, more loading. However, what's the point to put in a LOT of extra work for a WORSE product?
While their H:I trailer has seen criticism, I do expect them to show pretty games, but the cross-gen support has obvious caveats, when the generational jump is so massive (X1->XSX).
What we can realistically expect here are:
1) Good looking next-gen versions, with utterly embarrassing last-gen ports
2) Clearly last-gen games, potentially with higher fps
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
Thats the point. If they didn't then that would be that their next gen counter parts were held back. The fact that the 360 versions of those games were so different is precisely why they had someone else do the work instead of making the next gen version suffer.
No idea what you are getting at. Again they aren't going to release 6-12 AAA games in that first year. They wouldn't need 10 studios all of the sudden.
And why does it have to be in a year? Those studios would be involved much earlier than a year. How can they talk about games that they have reveled publicly? T
Edit: We also know about Hellblade but theres no release date on that. We dont know if that will be crossgen.
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diffusionx
Gold Member
The first 3 games you mentioned are actually pretty damn good on 360. Rise is especially impressive.
Face-Off: Rise of the Tomb Raider on Xbox 360
When Microsoft announced an exclusivity deal for Rise of the Tomb Raider, we were surprised to learn that such an impor…
www.eurogamer.net
Face-Off: Titanfall on Xbox 360
Digital Foundry's exhaustive cross-gen comparison between PC, Xbox 360 and Xbox One.
www.eurogamer.net
Face-Off: Forza Horizon 2
Titanfall saw the the majority of the Xbox One experience shoehorned onto last-gen hardware. Can Forza Horizon 2 follow suit?
www.eurogamer.net
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oldergamer
Member
That also doesn't make sense. The only difference between digital and disc is the drive (which is likely under 20 dollars to them) . Removing it won't save sony $100 on bill of materials. They also aren't going to take a 80 dollar bath to sell the digital version.
Raphael
Member
A Digital sale on psn store on a game launch is probably around 20-30usd additional revenue for sony, so its just 3 games sold at full price to make up for the loss on hardware.
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Dolomite
Member
And the launch itself, a year late, Rumble is last gen, a bloated budget spent on the Cell processor, and scrapped projects (the getaway, 2 days, the agency). The only thing worse than the PS3 launch year imo, was XBO's aweful aweful Launch.
oldergamer
Member
That's the same money they would make on the version of the console with a disc drive. I have a feeling you won't see the digital version anywhere. going all digital should offer some difference ( more drive space would be a good one ). To me it seems like they are worried about price and the disc drive was an easy way to remove some cost. However I wouldn't expect them to have more then a 30 - 40 dollar price difference at retail.
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OmaeWaMouShindiggity
Member
Do you currently or are you planning to get a PC that is equal to or better than the provided specs of the XSEX?
iJudged
Banned
No way, I NEED MY POWER
iJudged
Banned
I believe it, it is going to be $199 and $399, $449 and most, PS5 $499 digital and $549 reg? Not sure about PS5 prices honestly, that SSD is damn expensive, could swing both ways, from $399, $499 etc..
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thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
I actually can see Sony taking a loss on the Digital PS5 @ $399 and pricing the disc version @ $499 (if there is only a $50 difference between them that doesn't drive enough incentive to the Digital model which is the one Sony would want majority to purchase since it means more revenue and profit for them at the end of the day). Seems realistic considering their BOM is anywhere between $450 - $485 (my own speculation; considering the cooling system, the fact they need higher yields due to the clocks, the features of the Dualsense controller etc. those might actually negate the price savings on a smaller APU tbqh).
Don't see $200/$400 for Series S and X myself, but $250/$450 seem VERY likely. $250 seems about a good price for the Series S; remember the Wii came out for $250 and the difference between it and the 360 @ $400 was about as big as the difference between Series $ and PS5 Digital...that didn't hurt the Wii at all, though. Even considering there was the Arcade 360 @ $299 around that time, too. Still didn't hurt the Wii (and yes I know it was more than just price in the Wii's case that gave it a boost but this is a pricing discussion so that's all that feels relevant here).
$450 XSX actually really screws around with Sony's strategy even more IMHO; if gamers values physical media and the freedom that brings they can skip Digital PS5 and for $50 more get an XSX that offers both digital and physical. If you want that same level of choice with PS5 you have to spend $50 MORE over XSX to do so. Yes Sony could price-match disc PS5 to $450 but now that's them losing money on BOTH PS5 models rather than just the Digital one (where selling at a loss at least makes financial sense in a dual SKU strategy).
It forces Sony to either sell the potentially more appealing PS5 SKU at a higher price, or price-match it while losing money on both SKUs. And a $450 XSX gives more than enough value proposition over a $400 Digital PS5 to put a squeeze on that model, as well. Lastly, I think the $250/$450 pricing for Series S and Series X are very probable because while MS would be losing money on Series S (maybe between $50 - $75 each accounting for less amount of RAM, possibly smaller SSD capacity, no disc drive, smaller APU (unless they are also using bad-yield XSX APUs as Series S chips, which I guess could be smaller but dunno how that would actually work) etc.), they would likely be breaking even on a $450 XSX or only losing around $10 per unit.
Even possible they could make a very slight profit on XSX @ $450; there's some good reasons to speculate why their BOM is probably cheaper than Sony's despite having the larger APU. They don't need as tight a margin on yields since their GPU clock is lower, their cooling system is very likely simpler (fixed frequencies help here), their controller doesn't have as much going into it in terms of tech like microphone, they can repurpose bad yield XSX dies for Azure servers easily (same with bad yield Series S dies), physically smaller PCB (they have two PCBs per XSX, actually, but that also means they're producing at least 2x as many PCBs as Sony assuming they're both aiming for same number of unit manufacture, means economies of scale kicks in a bit more noticeably in MS's case), no need for as high-integrity PCB yields as Sony (again due to lower GPU clocks meaning less power load probably also meaning simpler traces), potentially lower-capacity PSU etc.
Sethbacca
Member
I think I've said it elsewhere in this thread or one of the others, but at $100 difference between the S and PS5 DE the S is utterly destroyed, and even at $150 difference the S doesn't make much sense. The PS5 is ~2.5 times more powerful (based on estimated 4tf estimates). Anybody who could save up $299 could save up $399 and get an actual next gen system. Realistically the S would only make sense at 50% of the cost of the PS5 DE, and frankly I doubt they can do that but wait and see I guess.
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Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
You are looking at it in the eyes of someone who cares about power. If ones is $100 cheaper but plays the games that the person is looking for, a lot of consumers dont care if it looks worse.
Sethbacca
Member
I mean, you're not wrong. I can see people already heavily invested in the MS ecosystem still on an OG Xbone or One S getting one of these as an upgrade. The differences between the capabilities of this thing and the X/PS5 are going to become massive throughout the generation though. Also, I remember being a kid, we knew what the shitty underperforming stuff was and didn't want it. Kids aren't stupid and they'll know what to ask for, and that will bhe Series X or PS5. The only kids getting an S will be the ones who have parents that grab the wrong box because it's cheaper and they're not aware of the differences.
Of course it's just my opinion at this point, but I think the people that will care about getting a true next gen system vs the equivalent of an Xbox One X that's already been out a couple years will leave it as a mostly undesirable option unless there is a massive price gap.
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
The price difference will be enough for parents to stop and ask questions but I agree that the price difference isnt going to stop the hardcore. They know what the difference is and they will pick up XSX if they want it but I its an easy way to get people into the ecosystem to get them playing games on Xbox. Even if you are ps5 first person, having to only spend $200-$300 is a nice way to get you into the brand.
Sethbacca
Member
Yeah, I have admittedly 0 interest in Xbox at this point, but at $200 i'd seriously consider it as a second box just because. Not so much at $300.
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
So its sounds like you are the person they are trying to sell to. Might work, might not.
TheCrimsnFuckr
Member
See, and that is their plan. First they sell you a really cheap next generation console (which will also play all XB1 games and around 600 360 games and at least 60 OG Xbox games, many of which with enhanced resolutions and most likely HDR if you use an HDR panel) and then they try to sell you their games either directly or through Xbox Game Pass, and if they can get you and many others hooked with Game Pass (either standard or Ultimate) for at least a year, then they start making money. All they need is captivating exclusives from a variety of genres from their 15 studios and big tent pole releases in Game Pass to convince you to stay subbed, and also sell a console at an impulse buy price to get you subbed to begin with. It's very lucrative and risky as it depends on multiple things and involves taking a pretty big initial loss, but if it succeeds then they make a shit ton of money.
Personally, I doubt it will be $199 at launch, but I absolutely see it hitting that low during Black Friday 2021 and in various other sales afterwards. I feel like as long as Lockhart is at least $100 cheaper than PS5 DE then it will be moderately successful at suckering people into the eco-system
Tulipanzo
Member
PS Studios has announced 9 at their first event; I'd like to think MS could match that output now, so they would indeed need several studios. Which again, might not mean much, since the jump is much more substantial this time around.
You're correct however, for MS's own finances is better to give little time for last-gen optimization and just focus on the version they want to sell.
I clearly meant that their cross-gen output would last up to a year, not that studios would only be working for a year.
The fact that H:I, a game out on X1 this year, has not shown gameplay running on it at all, is concerning to say the least.