iJudged
Banned
Let me be the first to leak this.
One s and one x discontinued, series/s $199, series/x $399.
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Possible Megaton Incoming. New Rumor surround Microsoft series S
Let me be the first to leak this.
One s and one x discontinued, series/s $199, series/x $399.
Slings and Arrows
Banned
I can't offer a counter-point. I only know what I've read online - which I can't prove or disprove - that GCN and RDNA are two different flop calculations.
loktaiextatus
Member
44 percent more gpu power by what measurement?
The ps5 can do 85 percent of the floating point operations per second the Xbox sx can. That's the gpu gap. The fill rate gap is in favor of clock. The ray tracing gap is likely similar to the tflop gap as likely the ray tracing units clock with the chip, no indicator that they are decoupled. Meaning if the CUs do 85 percent then likely the raytracing units do too. Don't get me wrong it's still an advantage but... I think you'll be disappointed if you expect a gap like the Xbox one and ps4 had. This gap is smaller, outside of the i/o speed gap in the other direction. . .
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yurinka
Member
I think it's bullshit and an awful idea because:
1) I highly doubt you can put in such a small box a Zen 2 and RDNA, SSD, motherboard, power supply and cooling system (heat sink + fan).
2) Even if capped o 4TF, its cost would be very high. The loss of selling it at $200 would be too high. They can afford some loss, but not that high.
3) MS devs already have to make sure their games run in a ton of SKUs: XBO, XBO S, XBO SAD, XBO X, Series X, many PCs and now on top of that another one?
4) This would hold back the entire generation of multi games and the 1st party Xbox games.
5) Regarding Microsoft pockets, they already spent a ton of money buying studios and brands, and giving away basically for free all their games, including many AAA. They should go financially suicide again with console pricing if they don't want to see the games division being shut down.
I still Lockhart/Series S never existed and won't exist. The only option that would make sense for a second MS SKU would be a Series X All Digital with mostly the same form factor than the other one: no extra work for devs, no extra marketing campaign, no constrained gen, etc.
1) I highly doubt you can put in such a small box a Zen 2 and RDNA, SSD, motherboard, power supply and cooling system (heat sink + fan).
2) Even if capped o 4TF, its cost would be very high. The loss of selling it at $200 would be too high. They can afford some loss, but not that high.
3) MS devs already have to make sure their games run in a ton of SKUs: XBO, XBO S, XBO SAD, XBO X, Series X, many PCs and now on top of that another one?
4) This would hold back the entire generation of multi games and the 1st party Xbox games.
5) Regarding Microsoft pockets, they already spent a ton of money buying studios and brands, and giving away basically for free all their games, including many AAA. They should go financially suicide again with console pricing if they don't want to see the games division being shut down.
I still Lockhart/Series S never existed and won't exist. The only option that would make sense for a second MS SKU would be a Series X All Digital with mostly the same form factor than the other one: no extra work for devs, no extra marketing campaign, no constrained gen, etc.
Self
Member
I honestly think MS can do it and might do it. They have to brute force their way back. Somehow it has to happen.
Obviously new and great mayor IP's would also do the trick, but it will take time to win the crowed over.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Exactly! If MS wanted to burn money like this, why haven't they ever done it before?
Mistershine.
Banned
A better analogy would be engine size, a 2 litre engine from a few years ago will have less power than a 1.8 litre engine from this year.
kraspkibble
Permabanned.
that's just a fan concept tho.
ScarletSpider
Banned
.
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THE DUCK
voted poster of the decade by bots
Right, maybe consider that you are wrong, many professional game developers are on the record saying this is not the case. Take a deep breath, embrace this new machine and move on.
Quantum253
Member
I think that would be a good price point. I'm considering getting a series S for Gamepass. I'd be fine paying 200 for a console stronger than the OneX. I'm really happy that cross-play is becoming standard too, which will help eliminate the need to buy the same game across two consoles. I could also see the OneS and X becoming discontinued. My Nephew wanted a One S for his birthday and it's almost impossible to find Xbox's at retail right now.
tryDEATH
Member
Microsoft had to write off $900 Million for the Surface RT and was responsible for wiping out $34 Billion of Microsoft market value in 2013 due to selloffs.
iJudged
Banned
aaaaaaaand that's the thing with MS, they CAN do that because they have $ and make so much year in year out. They can and will low ball with XSX and sell it wayyyy cheap (considering the components), take a hit now, and bet on the return later through XBL and GP.
EverydayBeast
thinks Halo Infinite is a new graphical benchmark
Halo is arguably the best FPS ever no matter what console or PC you play on.
Kokoloko85
Member
If the results don't come back soon, the rest of the board wont be so happy. No1 likes spending billions to make not so many billions back.
Investors and the board will want MS to Invest the money into another department that makes more profit.
Consoles and Games aren’t MS’s money maker and priority.
3 different Tech SKU’s in 3 years, almost a billion on a new Halo and all the new devs is alot of money.
Doubt they will keep pushing the same money if the sales aren't great.
Kokoloko85
Member
MS has made 3 different Tech SKU’s in 3 years.
PS5 digital and disc are the same tech and console.
Unlike Xbox 1 X, Xbox series X, and supposedly Xbox series S.
Thats 3 consoles in 3 years....
Playstation has just made PS5 since 2016
tryDEATH
Member
That is exactly what I am expecting. They are going to undercut and take a loss, but regain ton on market share and lock people into their eco-system.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
About 5 years ago they also let go about 20,000 employees. Assuming each one got $50,000 severance, that's $1 billion alone in pay outs. Peanuts.
baphomet
Member
And thus the exact reason Tflops are not a good metric for a performance comparison.
Tflops are Tflops. Even between different architecture, they are the same.
tryDEATH
Member
The Xbox already has a division that is going to make a to of money and will utilize the Azure servers and that is Xcloud. Sony is already a customer and they know there is still a lot of money to be made in gaming, which they are trying to maximize now by becoming teh Netflix of Gaming and making gaming accessible to every person with a smart phone with out the requirement of their own hardware but just a simple subscription.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Forgot about about MS/Sony cloud partnership. PS systems are always a huge base, so that'll be good money for MS.
I don't know how much money a cloud provider charges customers, but that money can help subsidize Xbox too.
It's like using Sony's own money against itself.
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Kokoloko85
Member
True.
We’ll see what the future brings.
They might prefer to be a service and cloud provider if there 1st party games bomb and the console console bombs with it. Investors will invest more into Azure servers etc.
If the xbox consoles sell well and 1st party does well than they have alot more choices and routes they can go.
Who knows what happens when Nintendo to do the same service, and Playstation and steam improves on there.
Xbox is leading the way atm, but Games is all Nintendo are and what brings the most money for Sony atm
I would argue:
1) OG Xbox - they never had a chance of winning the entire market with PS2 already dominating, video games were lucrative but I would argue not like today, and they were a new player.
2) 360 - never thought they would need to. They were coming in a year earlier, and people were stoked for it. Their fall from grace that gen was the RRoD. Price was never their issue. Solder was.
3) Xbox One - they were blindsided by the negativity at the beginning due to their own hubris at forcing kinnect down every purchasers throats. By the time they righted the ship so to speak, the generation was already lost in terms of potential domination (not saying lost in terms of profit people). And good luck getting their Directors on board with taking huge losses with no plan to back it up.
--> This gen is a different ballgame. They know where they went wrong before, and have navigated towards launch day 2020 for a few years, If they have ever been inclined to take huge losses to gain huge ground in market share, this is the best opportunity for success.
JLB
Banned
That design is a fan creation. I'd bet completely unrealistic (although I'd love it)
soulbait
Member
Dude, I love Halo myself. Have been playing it since Halo CE came out. However, there is this little game called Half Life and its sequel Half LIfe 2 that would like to have a word with you.
soulbait
Member
MS makes a ton of money off of Azure, but don't think its profits or its partnership with Sony effects anything with Xbox. Each division pretty much operates as an independent company with their own revenue goals. More than likely, the Azure side charges Xbox side to use their services. Probably at a reduced rate, and yes the money stays within the same corporation overall, but for tracking revenue, it is an expense for Xbox to use Azure, and considered sales for Azure.
Not saying that xCloud is not going to be huge or make money for MS, but think of that as a subdivision of Xbox, which would be leasing servers from Azure.
93xfan
Banned
VRS, Machine learning, more CUs for better ray tracing, clocks aren’t variable.
On the non tech front...
Full BC with many enhancements. Smart Delivery. Game pass.
Slings and Arrows
Banned
That's console specific.
I'm talking across the console industry. Both ps5 and xsx benefit from SSD. No doubt the next Nintendo console will benefit from an SSD as well
Coulomb_Barrier
Member
None of that comes close, I mean it's not even a debate. Ask any developer and they'll say SSD is biggest thing. Of course it is.
diffusionx
Gold Member
Oh they have. MS has lost so much money on the Xbox. For a long time, investors have asked why they are even in this damn business, since it is so far outside their core competencies. I think that is why MS is moving to a service type model, to align it closer to the rest of their business. Selling Xbox + GP is not that different from selling Surface laptops + O365.
I am not saying MS should or will take a bath on the Lockhart, but we also don't know how much it will cost.
ManUtd78
Neo Member
I think its a good strategy. For people who frequent this site we are gamers - hardcore I might say pretty much.
My circle of friends and family are xbox mostly and each night we play GTA Online or Fifa Pro clubs. But I am the only one who has an XB1X and PS4 Pro. They dont care about having the better graphics or horsepower. I can guarantee they all will go for the Xbox Series S at that price and I'll be the only with the XSX.
It's a great way to enter next gen and still play the same games.
My circle of friends and family are xbox mostly and each night we play GTA Online or Fifa Pro clubs. But I am the only one who has an XB1X and PS4 Pro. They dont care about having the better graphics or horsepower. I can guarantee they all will go for the Xbox Series S at that price and I'll be the only with the XSX.
It's a great way to enter next gen and still play the same games.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
I won't believe it until I see it. Usually, MS isn't about burning money on the front-end like this.
Schmick
Member
Lockhart/XBSS has been rumoured for such a long time you'd think by now MS would clear the air and say either way whether it exists. The fact they havent said it doesn't exist makes me think it does exists.
I think it's a great idea! I'd have my Gaming PC and PS5 hooked up to my 1440p 144mhz monitor in my gaming room. And I'd have a XBSS in my living room as the main media hub whilst still able to game if I fancy some on the sofa gaming either on my own or local MP.
Make it happen MS
I think it's a great idea! I'd have my Gaming PC and PS5 hooked up to my 1440p 144mhz monitor in my gaming room. And I'd have a XBSS in my living room as the main media hub whilst still able to game if I fancy some on the sofa gaming either on my own or local MP.
Make it happen MS
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Vawn
Banned
It will probably be both. It might not be 4TF, but it will definitely be less powerful than XSX/PS5 (either version) and also be all digital.
kikonawa
Member
what would be the point then?
Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
I tend to think this way buuuut...
If MS was ever going to burn money, the best time to do it is at the start of a new generation where you FINALLY have clear advantages over your competition (install base) and can compete with them in terms of first party output.
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TheCrimsnFuckr
Member
1. We don't know the size of the Lockart system nor what it will look like. However, considering how small and quiet the X1X is, I have no doubt they can make the Lockhart system fit in a similar size box.
2. The cost would be high for the first year or so, but as the system is rumored to be all digital and the fact that they market Xbox GamePass as being an essential Xbox service, they may be willing to take the temporary loss (they can eat the 2 or so billion dollar loss and make it back easily with their services). They already have 10 million GP subscribers, and selling a cheap all-digital console that also provides a service that gives all Xbox games for a relatively low monthly price will be a surefire way to get more subs. Once those subs start paying full price they have a lot of extra revenue.
3. X1, X1S and X1SAD are all pretty much the same system other than a slightly boosted clockspeed on the S. The X1X is also very similar architecture wise and the fact that the games are being released on PC means the games will be inherently scalable in relation to graphics. Additionally, the Xbox first party studios will only be supporting the Xbox One family for the first year or so of Series X (basically finishing all games that started development on Xbox One) and again, since they have PC versions, it is not like the stress is that high anyway (the devkit Dante literally has modes for all Xbox systems and PC)
4. How would it hold back the "entire generation"? It will still have the same CPU, the same SSD, a similar amount of RAM and will support all the same GPU technology (RT, VRS, etc) the only main difference is that the GPU will be targeting a different resolution. Since graphics are inherently scalable (changing resolution, adjusting game settings, etc) as shown on PC, this will not affect game design in any meaningful way. It's just like on PC, if I want to game at 1080p, there is no reason for me to buy an RTX2080Ti, I would be much better off just getting an RTX2060 or 2070 if I wanted my build to last longer.
5. Unless you are a financial analyst or investor in Microsoft, I don't know why you are worried. I am absolutely certain that they are focusing on a long term plan (that they can absolutely afford) which is already beginning to work for them. They have 10 million Xbox Game Pass subscribers already, and they have not even gotten their consistent releases ready. It doesnt take much to see that their subs will rise as the Series X and Lockhart sell more (as Xbox markets it as essential for an Xbox owner) and for that plan to be effective they have to be willing to take a loss on hardware sales and to not see the fruits of their studio investments for a given period of time
itsjustJEFF
Member
Sorry, I don't think I was specific, or clear, in my post. I see the benefits of Xbox as a brand. I'm not underestimating the resources of Microsoft. Although I do think people over estimate how much Microsoft is willing to pump into their Xbox division. I agree that Xbox is far ahead of Apple/Google/Amazon in terms of the dedicated game device industry. What those other guys do have is a massive lead in the casual gamer market, except Amazon. That is the market that Xbox is trying to capture. They want to get in front of as many casual gamer as possible for a chance of converting them to become more "hardcore." That is the real goal of Xbox, it's most likely a goal for Playstation as well. Xbox has a "lead" in game streaming because MS has their own cloud. But If Sony approached MS for use of that cloud, they'd sell them time on it no doubt. The real threat to game streaming is Amazon. Last I've heard they account for nearly 1/2 of the worlds cloud infrastructure. But, i don't think Amazon takes gaming that seriously.
Small indie devs can design games that on max setting challenge high powered gaming PCs, and be scaled down to run decently on a potato PC. The idea that cutting from something like 4k 60fps to 1080p 30 fps and reducing a ton of different effects is that hard and isn't going to be sufficient in most cases is kind of laughable. MS is also investing crazy amounts of money into the cloud and at some point it's going to work.
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Coulomb_Barrier
Member
I hate the idea of a Series S as it'll not only hold back the Series X but the entire gen, it's a travesty if you want innovation in this hobby. That said, I don't doubt that MS can and probably will price it extremely aggressively. Especially if it's all digital.
Schmick
Member
This is a mute argument since you have not considered lower tier nVidia and AMD GPU's which are arguably less powerful than what is inside a Series S but make up a huge proportion what people actually own. Lower tier GPU's have not held back innovation.
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SleepDoctor
Banned
I just don't see them announcing this price. If anything, maybe they hit that price by undercutting.
But I admit it would be interesting to see them outright announcing $400 for xsx and putting Sony in an odd spot lol.
But I admit it would be interesting to see them outright announcing $400 for xsx and putting Sony in an odd spot lol.
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
I dont seem them announcing price or a date until august or September unless they are being super aggressive with the price. but then again they announced price of both One and One X at E3 and this july show is basically their e3.
Walter Matthau
Member
$200 isn’t happening. This is a megacorp with their hands in many products and services and Sony isn’t their only competitor. Their primary objective is profits.
Leyasu
Banned
My name is on a series X digital edition
Dr Bass
Member
Microsoft has lost a ton of money on Xbox, since it launched.
Forbes: Xbox lost Microsoft $4 billion (and counting)
Forbes takes stock of Microsoft and asks what the behemoth is gonna do about some of its woes. The biggest problem facing Microsoft is its size. At 60,000 employees and $40 billion in revenues, the company isn't as nimble as it once was, and newer products are not yet earning the company much...
www.engadget.com
Analyst: Microsoft losing $2 billion on Xbox annually
Hiding losses thanks to extremely profitable Android royalties Microsoft is losing billions of dollars on its Xbox business, Nomura analyst...
www.destructoid.com
Microsoft loses $1 billion for 360 repairs
"Three red rings" now covered by three-year warranty
www.gamesindustry.biz
Microsoft loses $400m on the Xbox One in just ten months
Microsoft spent $2.1 billion on the production and launching of the Xbox One console
www.independent.co.uk