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[ironjoe989]

I'll give you that one! I've only played Dark Force 2 once, I forgot that part. I was thinking more of KOTOR. I do think that the pace at which she learns is intentionally quick, and that we'll see the KOTOR style reveal people are expecting.

I actually think that TFA is going to be more watchable in the context of all three movies, in that you'll have a better idea of why Rey is such a prodigy, and a lot more backstory as to other semi-mystifying events like the Knights of Ren and the current political environment.

Kyle Katarn ring a bell?

He literally just gets a lightsaber from his dead father and already knows force powers right away.

 

[SeanC]

You know, after dealing with years of Ferngully, Dances with Wolves, and Pocahontas comments I now realize I must stand with my TFA brethren in solidarity against "its just a *movie title* rip off" slander.

The Pocahontas one always got me with some serious eyerolls. I mean...they're only referencing the Disney movie, not the historical figure that existed hundreds of years ago. I mean, how far back ya'll wanna go?

 

[Surfinn]

The real reason he won't do it

"Rey is so incredibly powerful that she kills all the bad guys in TLJ. There is no story beyond this film"

EP9 is just going to be a fucking lens flair rave in space

Uh oh, time to embrace your pitchfork! You really proved me wrong here!

Hypotetical people contradicting themselves is not an argument at all.

Wait

What

 

[Surfinn]

Double

 

[shintoki]

The real reason he won't do it

"Rey is so incredibly powerful that she kills all the bad guys in TLJ. There is no story beyond this film"

EP9 is just going to be a fucking lens flair rave in space

Wrong.

The real villain will be Finn. He playing the long game and Episode 9 will be ATB II.

 

[Steejee]

Hell of a detour to go from JJ Abrams directing to discussions of Rey being a 'mary sue'

The only thing she did in TFA that even slightly annoyed me for how sudden it was was the force suggestion, and even that I could easily chalk up to her just having to deal with one dumb grunt and getting lucky.

The fight with Kylo Ren, which always seems to be a source of hatred, was well staged - Kylo had been shot by the gun that caused storm troopers to go flying and had just beaten the snot out of Fin (who, as a storm trooper, had melee training). Rey clearly knew how to use a staff weapon already and only really 'won' because Ren wanted her to join him.

The rest seemed par for the course for force-awakened anyone in Star Wars.

There was plenty about TFA I didn't like (though I still enjoyed it overall), which is why I put it at #5 in the series behind the original trilogy and Rogue One, but the handling of Rey's force powers is not one of those. I'm more concerned about the script than anything, but I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt for now.

 

[Dash_Riprock]

Uh oh, time to embrace your pitchfork! You really proved me wrong here!

Hypotetical people contradicting themselves is not an argument at all.

I've read this post three times and still don't get what you're saying.

 

[Elfstar]

The real reason he won't do it

"Rey is so incredibly powerful that she kills all the bad guys in TLJ. There is no story beyond this film"

EP9 is just going to be a fucking lens flair rave in space



Wait

What

I'm saying that your "uh oh, you sound like a witch" post was kinda proving me right, wasn't it?

And that arguing about immaginary people who are contradicting themselves about Anakin and Ray is not that good of an argument.

I hope it is clear now.

Again, i'm sorry if my english is bad, i'm trying to learn it properly. Maybe i should not write on an American-based forum after all?

 

[Subpar Spatula]

Not really. Yoda is pretty much like "you're wrong" when Obi asks if he's the chosen one.

And like I said

Do you think Rey being a fucking space jesus would have similarly passed by without complaint or critique?

Why are we having this conversation aboaut Anakin NOW and not in 1999?

But WE all know he's the chosen one, and Obi still believes hence in the third: "YOU WERE THE CHOSEN ONE!" The movie never tries to convince you Anakin isn't OP.

the sexist complaints would always be there but i doubt the mary sue comments would be as loud or even exist if she was designed to be OP like anakin.

'cause I was 9 and you were probably young too and probably didn't use the internet as often?

Wrong.

The real villain will be Finn. He playing the long game and Episode 9 will be ATB II.

"Thanks, Rey, you helped a great deal."
*pulls off face*
"Meesa thinks you should join us, wesa going to take over the galaxy."

 

[Ristifer]

I see, but trying to shut down any kind of argument with this is both childish and lazy.

I don't think it's lazy at all. It's not really an attempt to shut down the argument. It's more of an attempt at highlighting the unfortunate reality of Daisy Ridley's character being subjected to increased criticism solely on the fact that she's a woman.

Highlighting sexism isn't lazy or childish.

 

[itwasTuesday]

I bet Rey is already a better moisture vaporator operator than Luke will ever be.

 

[KoopaTheCasual]

The real reason he won't do it

"Rey is so incredibly powerful that she kills all the bad guys in TLJ. There is no story beyond this film"

EP9 is just going to be a fucking lens flair rave in space



Wait

What

You tried to "gotcha' the poster by saying "where were these concerns in 1999!?"

Both Elfstar and I recognize that sexism played a huge role in why the Mary Sue critique is as wide-spread as it is, but to denounce ANYONE who brings it up is reductive, childish, and lazy.

Anyway, OT: Rian shouldn't have to come forward to say why he turned down IX, dude is probably killing himself over XIII, so he probably needed more time than Disney could afford.

Still have lots of faith in JJ tho.

 

[Surfinn]

I'm saying that your "uh oh, you sound like a witch" was kinda proving me right, wasn't it?

And that arguing about immaginary people who are contradicting themselves about Anakin and Ray is not that good of an argument.

I hope it is clear now.

No I was saying, that's what Trump says all the time ("it's a witch hunt!") And he's always wrong

There are no "imaginary" people contradicting themselves. There are REAL people, in this very thread, who give both Anakin and Luke a pass and Rey sharp criticism for the same exact kind of stuff her predecessors did in other films.

And my point about 1999 was.. why do you think there were ZERO arguments about Anakin being a Gary Stu, up until 2015?

And why do you think the Mary Sue argument (for SW) only cropped up when Rey lead TFA?

You tried to "gotcha' the poster by saying "where were these concerns in 1999!?"

Both Elfstar and I recognize that sexism played a huge role in why the Mary Sue critique is as wide-spread as it is, but to denounce ANYONE who brings it up is reductive, childish, and lazy.

Anyway, OT: Rian shouldn't have to come forward to say why he turned down IX, dude is probably killing himself over XIII, so he probably needed more time than Disney could afford.

Still have lots of faith in JJ tho.

That's not a "gocha", it's a real fact and genuine question (why were these criticisms not present until now?)

I'm not "denoucing" criticism of Rey, I'm pointing out that a lot of that criticism seems to stem from sexism.

In this very thread I already acknowledged some of it, saying that I understand why people would question the Jedi Mind Trick scene.

 

[shintoki]

"Thanks, Rey, you helped a great deal."
*pulls off face*
"Meesa thinks you should join us, wesa going to take over the galaxy."

Wrong. Go home, Lock your door, do your homework, watch Naruto.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Both Elfstar and I recognize that sexism played a huge role in why the Mary Sue critique is as wide-spread as it is, but to denounce ANYONE who brings it up is reductive, childish, and lazy.

1) it doesn't seem like it's being recognized, or if it is, that it's being minimized.
2) nobody's denouncing just anyone. The denouncements seem to be pretty solidly linked.

Like, if the argument is going to hitch up when descriptions of the very present outside influences on the conversation are brought up, just so we can all understand you're not sexist then that's gonna be kind of a problem, whereas if you just continue on making your non-sexist argument that isn't influenced by those takes, it's going to make itself pretty evident by comparison, isn't it?

Like I was arguing in the Max Landis thread (jesus) - the use of the term itself is inherently sexist, so bolstering or incorporating any aspect of that sexist argument is going to taint the surrounding conversation. If you wanna criticize the writing of the film in a way that doesn't involve MARY SUE then you have to not look at the criticism through that prism.

Basically: If you know your argument isn't sexist, and it isn't drawing from sexism as a POV, won't that make itself pretty clear, pretty quickly, through the support you provide, as opposed to grinding everything to a halt to get defensive about the very notion of people somewhere being unfairly described as sexists?

 

[George Oscar Bluth II]

 

[Subpar Spatula]

Wrong. Go home, Lock your door, do your homework, watch Naruto.

don't tell me to go to my room, dad, i'm 27-years-old.

 

[Herr Schwarz]

I don't think it's lazy at all. It's not really an attempt to shut down the argument. It's more of an attempt at highlighting the unfortunate reality of Daisy Ridley's character being subjected to increased criticism solely on the fact that she's a woman.

Highlighting sexism isn't lazy or childish.

Because as much as people give Anakin shit, they always gave him a free pass for the same exact criticisms Rey received.

I wonder

Why is this?

That would depend if the arguments against her screen character can be justified or not. If they can in anyway be justified as a character or acting argument, then it's fair game, and dropping the "you're a misogynist" bomb on anyone that does have a legit criticism about the way her character is handled minimizes the real misogyny that goes on in order for you to hand wave valid arguments that you can't counter or sate without dropping said bomb.

I already said what my problem was I thought her learning jedi arts like mind control was far too early for me to really get on board with it. But I didn't mind since someone said that the force is going to be handled a lot differently in this new Star Wars law. But if you weren't aware of that it could be jarring.

And like I said about Rey earlier in the thread, to me she seems to be operating on the spectrum of looking constantly surprised at things.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

That would depend if the arguments against her screen character can be justified or not. If they can in anyway be justified as a character or acting argument, then it's fair game, and dropping the "you're a misogynist" bomb on anyone that does have a legit criticism about the way her character is handled minimizes the real misogyny that goes on in order for you to hand wave valid arguments that you can't counter or sate without dropping said bomb.

This isn't fucking happening in here.

 

[Inferno313]

If you start breaking out the "I'M NOT A SEXIST" before anyone has fucking called you sexist, that's highly sus.

 

[Dash_Riprock]

This isn't fucking happening in here.

Don't bother, they're all in full Persecution Complex mode right now.

 

[KoopaTheCasual]

No I was saying, that's what Trump says all the time ("it's a witch hunt!") And he's always wrong

There are no "imaginary" people contradicting themselves. There are REAL people, in this very thread, who give both Anakin and Luke a pass and Rey sharp criticism for the same exact kind of stuff her predecessors did in other films.

And my point about 1999 was.. why do you think there were ZERO arguments about Anakin being a Gary Stu, up until 2015?

And why do you think the Mary Sue argument (for SW) only cropped up when Rey lead TFA?



That's not a "gocha", it's a real fact and genuine question (why were these criticisms not present until now?)

I'm not "denoucing" criticism of Rey, I'm pointing out that a lot of that criticism seems to stem from sexism.

In this very thread I already acknowledged some of it, saying that I understand why people would question the Jedi Mind Trick scene.

Oh woops, my bad. I totally confused your post with Einchy's right above yours, who literally said "Mary Sue complaints = not worth my time"

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Surfinn]

That would depend if the arguments against her screen character can be justified or not. If they can in anyway be justified as a character or acting argument, then it's fair game, and dropping the "you're a misogynist" bomb on anyone that does have a legit criticism about the way her character is handled minimizes the real misogyny that goes on in order for you to hand wave valid arguments that you can't counter or sate without dropping said bomb.

I already said what my problem was I thought her learning jedi arts like mind control was far too early for me to really get on board with it. But I didn't mind since someone said that the force is going to be handled a lot differently in this new Star Wars law. But if you weren't aware of that it could be jarring.

And like I said about Rey earlier in the thread, to me she seems to be operating on the spectrum of looking constantly surprised at things.

Like

Just a couple posts ago

I just agreed with some criticism of Rey, in that I can understand why people wouldn't buy the Jedi Mind Trick scene

Literally no one here is saying "you're a misogynist", wow

 

[Elfstar]

No I was saying, that's what Trump says all the time ("it's a witch hunt!") And he's always wrong

There are no "imaginary" people contradicting themselves. There are REAL people, in this very thread, who give both Anakin and Luke a pass and Rey sharp criticism for the same exact stuff her predecessors did in other films.

I'm sorry, i don't know anything about Trump, i'm not american and i always shut my tv off when someone's talking about him.

I don't know about the people you're talking about, but if they're actually using two standards that's bad for them, i guess?

I think that the major difference between TFA and TPP is that the former is a good-but a bit flawed movie that you can criticize by nitpicking some arguably weakly writed scene and a not more else, while the latter (with all the prequels altogether) is just a giant flaming cesspool that you can't even figure out where to start to explain what is wrong.
When Child Anakin is such an obnoxius, badly written and directed poor actor you just hate him for that, you don't even bother to analyze why what he does is bad.

I think that would be kinda it, i don't think there is some kind of conspiracy against Rey.

 

[Not]

Highlighting sexism isn't lazy or childish.

And it won't be until it stops being the secret actual reason for the majority of dudes' criticisms.

 

[KoopaTheCasual]

1) it doesn't seem like it's being recognized, or if it is, that it's being minimized.
2) nobody's denouncing just anyone. The denouncements seem to be pretty solidly linked.

Like, if the argument is going to hitch up when descriptions of the very present outside influences on the conversation are brought up, just so we can all understand you're not sexist then that's gonna be kind of a problem, whereas if you just continue on making your non-sexist argument that isn't influenced by those takes, it's going to make itself pretty evident by comparison, isn't it?

Like I was arguing in the Max Landis thread (jesus) - the use of the term itself is inherently sexist, so bolstering or incorporating any aspect of that sexist argument is going to taint the surrounding conversation. If you wanna criticize the writing of the film in a way that doesn't involve MARY SUE then you have to not look at the criticism through that prism.

Basically: If you know your argument isn't sexist, and it isn't drawing from sexism as a POV, won't that make itself pretty clear, pretty quickly, through the support you provide, as opposed to grinding everything to a halt to get defensive about the very notion of people somewhere being unfairly described as sexists?

My latest comment attributed to Surfinn a comment made by Einchy which literally was:

Anyone who says Mary Sue, and isn't using it ironically, isn't really worth the time of day. Shit got old real quick in 2015 and it's not getting any fresher.

I think that's pretty clear cut denouncing just anyone.

And each of my comments come with the caveat that alt-right/GG types amplified the critique and boosted it to the forefront. I must have said that at least 3 times by now in this thread, so I don't see how it's not being recognized that we're not arguing that point.

 

[The Silver]

I wanna see an interview with JJ discussing things he will be doing differently, in terms of filmmaking approach, with EP9.

What his takeaway from TFA was.



Not really. Yoda is pretty much like "you're wrong" when Obi asks if he's the chosen one.

And like I said

Do you think Rey being a fucking space jesus would have similarly passed by without complaint or critique?

Why are we having this conversation aboaut Anakin NOW and not in 1999?

the audience would already know for a fact Yoda and those other jokers are wrong and Anakin is indeed the chosen space jesus. Like one of the whole things about the prequels was the fact the jedi were blinded and flawed, them rejecting Anakin was the first showcase of that, Qui-Gon was right, they were wrong.

besides that, as someone already said, the prequels had so much other shit wrong with them that kid Anakin being good at stuff was down the list compared to easier targets like Jar Jar and the cringe writing/acting, the romance plots, etc.

If it was known Rey was a literal force prophecy jesus from the start I'd imagine people would find it easier to excuse her feats, but I'd also assume people would be railing against her for because the story is "copying Anakin" along with the sexism amplifying it.

 

[Herr Schwarz]

Like

Just a couple posts ago

I just agreed with some criticism of Rey, in that I can understand why people wouldn't buy the Jedi Mind Trick scene

Literally no one here is saying "you're a misogynist", wow

Right sure, but I was scanning through and saw a lot of implied misogyny, but hey as long as the finger pointing is going on in someone else's direction then that's fine. But understand that some people aren't as coherent or concise at expressing themselves and might meander themselves into something that might be taken more seriously than it should be.

Plus the idea of an anti feminist agenda being the sole reason someone has a problem with something seems unreal to me as something to pursue with any kind of vigor.

If I were to think about my agenda it would be me stanning for things to be more like the prequels.

 

[Vagabundo]

Round and round and round we go. No one is going to convince anyone at this point.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Round and round and round we go. No one is going to convince anyone at this point.

The opposite has happened in just the last 50 posts, man.

It keeps happening, in fact.

My latest comment attributed to Surfinn a comment made by Einchy which literally was:

I think that's pretty clear cut denouncing just anyone.

That's not really denouncing just anyone though. And you just quoted my explanation as to why it isn't w/r/t the inherently sexist nature of the Mary Sue argument itself.

Like, if you introduce a sexist argument (even if you didn't recognize the inherent sexism in it) and it's called out as such (with reasoned explanation as to why) and you don't like that info, that doesn't mean it was unfairly used against you.

IT could be, but in this case, Einchy is commenting on his experience with people who keep feeding into and propagating an inherently sexist argument. Because it is.

There are ways to criticize Rey's characterization without working from MARY SUE as a base. I know, because I've seen it done. If you choose to start from that point, you have to be prepped for the inevitability that someone is going to point out the sexist nature of that base when the argument eventually traces back to its origin.

That isn't just anyone for just any reason.

 

[Surfinn]

I'm sorry, i don't know anything about Trump, i'm not american and i always shut my tv off when someone's talking about him.

I don't know about the people you're talking about, but if they're actually using two standards that's bad for them, i guess?

I think that the major difference between TFA and TPP is that the former is a good-but a bit flawed movie that you can criticize by nitpicking some arguably weakly writed scene and a not more else, while the latter (with all the prequels altogether) is just a giant flaming cesspool that you can't even figure out where to start to explain what is wrong.
When Child Anakin is such an obnoxius, badly written and directed poor actor you just hate him for that, you don't even bother to analyze why what he does is bad.

I think that would be kinda it, i don't think there is some kind of conspiracy against Rey.

You're right, there are many more problems with the prequels, and those problems did initially overshadow a lot of the core character components but once the dust settled, HOURS AND HOURS of criticism emerged onto the internet, over the span of almost two decades. They've been picked to pieces and reassembled. There's no longer an excuse, just prior to 2015, that "well people just didn't get around to it". RLM made a fucking like 5 hour review of the PT, and never ONCE does Plinkett mention anything about Anakin being too powerful as a character, or that he's a Gary Stu. He mentions that Obi Wan should have fucking FORCE RAN to save his master.. but not the ridiculously overpowered character that is Anakin Skywalker.

So we really don't get to just hand waive away this absence anymore because "there were too many problems".

Out of curiosity, do you think Gary Sue arguments would have been made, had Rey been cast as a white male, instead?

the audience would already know for a fact Yoda and those other jokers are wrong and Anakin is indeed the chosen space jesus. Like one of the whole things about the prequels was the fact the jedi were blinded and flawed, them rejecting Anakin was the first showcase of that, Qui-Gon was right, they were wrong.

besides that, as someone already said, the prequels had so much other shit wrong with them that kid Anakin being good at stuff was down the list compared to easier targets like Jar Jar and the cringe writing/acting, the romance plots, etc.

If it was known Rey was a literal force prophecy jesus from the start I'd imagine people would find it easier to excuse her feats, but I'd also assume people would be railing against her for because the story is "copying Anakin" along with the sexism amplifying it.

See above

Like I said earlier, being a Force Jesus doesn't automatically excuse away all of your "Gary Stu" qualities.

They're ALL fucking force jesus. They wield incredible powers and save the galaxy. The only difference is that Anakin was born from the force and expected to be "the chosen one". Luke is pretty much the chosen one in the OT, even if there is no prophecy.

Luke is standing upside down and lifting rocks/Yoda/R2 after like an hour or two of training.

That shit takes YEARS to master as a Jedi

 

[Blader]

I'm sorry, i don't know anything about Trump, i'm not american and i always shut my tv off when someone's talking about him.

I don't know about the people you're talking about, but if they're actually using two standards that's bad for them, i guess?

I think that the major difference between TFA and TPP is that the former is a good-but a bit flawed movie that you can criticize by nitpicking some arguably weakly writed scene and a not more else, while the latter (with all the prequels altogether) is just a giant flaming cesspool that you can't even figure out where to start to explain what is wrong.
When Child Anakin is such an obnoxius, badly written and directed poor actor you just hate him for that, you don't even bother to analyze why what he does is bad.

I think that would be kinda it, i don't think there is some kind of conspiracy against Rey.

Many of the criticisms of Rey are fueled by online sexist/misogynistic movements, a la Gamergate. Since, by your own admission, you are in deliberately in the dark about anything relating to Donald Trump, I would not be surprised if you were just similarly out of the loop on this too.

"Conspiracy against Rey" is a pretty fanciful way of phrasing it but not entirely untrue either. Not that she's a perfect character and nitpicks are being invented out of thin air to criticize her because she's a woman, but rather that the degree to which those nitpicks are being raised and blown up are quite driven by the fact that she's a woman.

 

[SeanC]

Round and round and round we go. No one is going to convince anyone at this point.

Why not just have a conversation about movies?

I mean, that's the foundation exploring film criticism and analysis - to have a discussion and not in an echo chamber. Otherwise you'll end up like Armond White.

 

[Surfinn]

Right sure, but I was scanning through and saw a lot of implied misogyny, but hey as long as the finger pointing is going on in someone else's direction then that's fine. But understand that some people aren't as coherent or concise at expressing themselves and might meander themselves into something that might be taken more seriously than it should be.

Plus the idea of an anti feminist agenda being the sole reason someone has a problem with something seems unreal to me as something to pursue with any kind of vigor.

If I were to think about my agenda it would be me stanning for things to be more like the prequels.

But that IS the sole reason why some people hate Rey.

And like I said, if you have legitimate, well thought out criticisms, I'll gladly hear and respond to them. Like I just did about 30 minutes ago

 

[Sephzilla]

Right sure, but I was scanning through and saw a lot of implied misogyny, but hey as long as the finger pointing is going on in someone else's direction then that's fine. But understand that some people aren't as coherent or concise at expressing themselves and might meander themselves into something that might be taken more seriously than it should be.

Plus the idea of an anti feminist agenda being the sole reason someone has a problem with something seems unreal to me as something to pursue with any kind of vigor.

If I were to think about my agenda it would be me stanning for things to be more like the prequels.

sadly it is the reason some people don't like rey

 

[Stiler]

Context is key for some of these.


Removed from the context of how they live, with Luke's situation being he has a comfortable family life that he secretly wants to escape, while Rey lives a solitary life she is fine with remaining in until her family returns. The two desert planets are also shown to be fairly different, both in culture and in feel (with Tatooine being a huge empty desert, and Jakku being a scarred battlefield).


This is fair.


This is somewhat fair, but ultimately strips out a lot of context. R2 encounters Luke and tries to get him to help. Luke refuses and only gets caught up when R2 runs away. Rey chooses to help BB-8.


Torture is a thing that happens in films in general. This is an unfair comparison, and the scenes are not even the same.


Palpatine isn't introduced until ESB. If anything Vader is subservient to Tarkin, with Hux being the analog. And that comparison isn't really accurate either.


Context! This is done on purpose to explicitly set Kylo Ren up as a somebody who wants to be Vader but isn't.


This is a general thing in movies and wasn't even original in ANH. The relationships are also a bit different.


Again, context. If you lazily strip away all the meaning and shit, sure, it's a direct copy of ANH. These scenes are entirely different in how they play out and in the actual meaning behind them.


This is fair. While you can logically justify it, the movie needed to do a better job doing it itself.


This is 100% unfair. The DS1 was destroyed by the X-Wing firing into a structural weakness on the station's surface. Starkiller Base is destroyed by the heroes on the surface of the base blowing a huge enough hole in the structure that an X-Wing is able to fly in and shoot at an actual weakness.


...which TFA actually does once you stop doing simple surface viewings.

I'm sorry but saying "They changed a few details about these things" does not discount the fact that the overall structure and plot points are very much straight ripped from A New Hope. If you took away every thing that was in A New Hope that is also in TFA you wouldn't have a plot in TFA.

The entire structure of the movie and its plot points are lifted almost directly from ANH. They had to change details or it would have been plagiarism.

 

[Elfstar]

You're right, there are many more problems with the prequels, and those problems did initially overshadow a lot of the core character components but once the dust settled, HOURS AND HOURS of criticism emerged onto the internet, over the span of almost two decades. They've been picked to pieces and reassembled. There's no longer an excuse, just prior to 2015, that "well people just didn't get around to it". RLM made a fucking like 5 hour review of the PT, and never ONCE does Plinkett mention anything about Anakin being too powerful as a character, or that he's a Gary Stu. He mentions that Obi Wan should have fucking FORCE RAN to save his master.. but not the ridiculously overpowered character that is Anakin Skywalker.

So we really don't get to just hand waive away this absence anymore because "there were too many problems".

Out of curiosity, do you think Gary Sue arguments would have been made, had Rey been cast as a white male, instead?



See above

To be fair, Plinkett actually said that Child Anakin being able to activate that spaceship and then to save the day with it without even knowing what he was doing was pretty dumb.
Wasn't that the only "incredible" thing that he did in the prequel movies?
In AotC and RotS he was bested by both Count Doku and Obi Wan, and at that point it didn't matter anyway because we knew that he was trained by Jedi masters for about ten years or whatever.
I won't care if Ray becomes invincible in Episode VIII, because we already know that we'll see her training with Luke (probably?), and that's more than enough to justify everything, for Star Wars standards.

 

[elrechazado]

But that IS the sole reason why some people hate Rey.

And like I said, if you have legitimate, well thought out criticisms, I'll gladly hear and respond to them. Like I just did about 30 minutes ago

And it's not the reason for many others. Checkmate everyone I guess? The usual suspects in here claiming that nobody is painting rey critics as gamergaters, while there are multiple posts right here claiming that people hate Rey because of that very reason. It's certain peoples' go to move in every thread it comes up in.

To be fair, Plinkett actually said that Child Anakin being able to activate that spaceship and then to save the day with it without even knowing what he was doing was pretty dumb.
Wasn't that the only "incredible" thing that he did in the prequel movies?
In AotC and RotS he was bested by both Count Doku and Obi Wan, and at that point it didn't matter anyway because we knew that he was trained by Jedi masters for about ten years or whatever.
I won't care if Ray becomes invincible in Episode VIII, because we already know that we'll see her training with Luke (probably?), and that's more than enough to justify everything, for Star Wars standards.

Child Anakin was the king of Gary Stu's. One, we knew his ending and that he was set up to become this super jedi. He built a droid, beat aliens at pod racing, destroyed the micro death star winning the war, and had super midichlorians. Also pulled Natalie portman. Nobody cares because we all agree those movies were shit. The Rey discussion for many of us is criticism of character development for a film with other redeeming qualities. No chance for nuance though, just drop comments about how there must be sooooome ooooooother reason we don't like rey's arc.

 

[THE GUY]

Both Luke and Rey are bland and boring characters. Hopefully Finn kills them both in the next one, then starts on a journey to rid the universe of the remaining Jedi and Sith.

All of I've seen of Episode I-IV/VII shows me these guys are the true enemies of peace in a galaxy from long, long ago that is far, far away.

 

[CrichtonKicks]

the audience would already know for a fact Yoda and those other jokers are wrong and Anakin is indeed the chosen space jesus. Like one of the whole things about the prequels was the fact the jedi were blinded and flawed, them rejecting Anakin was the first showcase of that, Qui-Gon was right, they were wrong.

besides that, as someone already said, the prequels had so much other shit wrong with them that kid Anakin being good at stuff was down the list compared to easier targets like Jar Jar and the cringe writing/acting, the romance plots, etc.

If it was known Rey was a literal force prophecy jesus from the start I'd imagine people would find it easier to excuse her feats, but I'd also assume people would be railing against her for because the story is "copying Anakin" along with the sexism amplifying it.

But where are the criticisms that Luke hangs as long as he does with Vader in Luke's first lightsaber battle ever? Vader toys with him for a while, yes, but when shit gets real at the end Luke puts up a helluva fight.

Prequels aside, people get overly critical with TFA for using the same storytelling shortcuts that were employed in the OT.

 

[Surfinn]

To be fair, Plinkett actually said that Child Anakin being able to activate that spaceship and then to save the day with it without even knowing what he was doing was pretty dumb.
Wasn't that the only "incredible" thing that he did in the prequel movies?
In AotC and RotS he was bested by both Count Doku and Obi Wan, and at that point it didn't matter anyway because we knew that he was trained by Jedi masters for about ten years or whatever.
I won't care if Ray becomes invincible in Episode VIII, because we already know that we'll see her training with Luke (probably?), and that's more than enough to justify everything, for Star Wars standards.

Yes, he criticized THAT ONE SCENE, not Anakin's entire character as being "overpowered". That's the big difference between Anakin, Luke, and Rey.

And it's not the reason for many others. Checkmate everyone I guess? The usual suspects in here claiming that nobody is painting rey critics as gamergaters, while there are multiple posts right here claiming that people hate Rey because of that very reason. It's certain peoples' go to move in every thread it comes up in.

Well, yeah. There are legit criticisms for Rey, and that's never been a problem.

And literally no one is saying anyone in here is sexist. Just that some of the particular arguments made about Rey come FROM sexist arguments. Not that people are outright misogynists.

 

[GhaleonEB]

I'm sorry but saying "They changed a few details about these things" does not discount the fact that the overall structure and plot points are very much straight ripped from A New Hope.

The structure does not mirror A New Hope. TFA has elements lifted from the entire previous trilogy.

Some beats are intentional parallels to ANH - droid in the desert finds someone who is pulled into a broader conflict. But that's very surface level stuff, and if you're unwilling to look beyond the surface and talk about what the movies are actually doing, and who the characters are, then you're not going to see eye to eye with anyone who is. Which is basically everyone on the other side of this argument.

Rey is very different from Luke, goes on a totally different journey, and has a different arc. (Starting with, Luke is chomping at the bit to get off Tatooine, while Rey is actively resisting leaving Jakku). There is no ANH analogue to Finn or Poe, and no analogue in the originall trilogy to the path Finn follows.

Pesky Toaster puts it better than I could:

Much of what TFA was doing was cleverly mirroring the entire OT in one movie. The biggest one for me was Kylo Ren, and part of what makes him an interesting villain. Kylo Ren is clearly and purposefully set up as a Darth Vader for the trilogy. He talks about (and to) Darth Vader, he idolizes him. And Kylo Ren finally gets his chance to be Darth Vader near the end of the movie when he confronts Han. Father and Son. A son fallen to darkness and a father looking to redeem him. The mirror of RotJ's climax where a son was looking redeeming his fallen father. We all know Vader's choice; he chose the light and to save Luke but that's not Kylo's choice. He's not Darth Vader and he kills his father cementing his place in the dark side, shown rather visually in the scene with the shifting of red and blue lighting on each character's face during the confrontation (another pretty cool detail). I thought it was a really nice way to set up the character as a Darth Vader stand-in then subvert that and take him off in another direction. Who knows how the arc will end up by the end but right now I think it's pointing in an interesting direction. Sure, in a bullet point list TFA ticks a lot of the same boxes but I think it was supposed to. It was supposed to establish familiar circumstances then slowly take off the mask to reveal something different. I think it's a lot more creative of a film than many in this thread have given it credit for. I've definitely talked about this scene before but I think most things in this thread have been talked about before so whatever. I also think it's really cool and I want to talk about it more.

You are looking at the obvious, intentional surface level parallels that TFA uses, and totally missing the point of the film and how it re-contextualized the parallels, and how it pivots in different directions from them.

 

[Lizzy]

time is a flat circle

 

[The Pope]

Would Christopher Hitchens back the Jedi or the Sith?

 

[Herr Schwarz]

Yeah I don't care about the whole "it's a retread" critique. Like so what, some of the greatest stories ever told are a retread and then retrod again.

It's what you're actually filling that retread with that matters. As long as you can make me care it'll be fine.


It's pretty reductive let's not pretend the basic blue print is some always changing thing.

Bad Guys, Good Guys, some conflict, Good guys get down for a bit, good guys team up with some gagoos and prevail over the bad guys when things look the worst.

 

[Neece]

If you took away every thing that was in A New Hope that is also in TFA you wouldn't have a plot in TFA.

Eh, if you took away every thing in ANH that is also in TFA, then you would still have original stories for Rey, Finn, Poe, and Kylo Ren. That matters far more than some plots or images being similar.

 

[Elfstar]

Yes, he criticized THAT ONE SCENE, not Anakin's entire character as being "overpowered". That's the big difference between Anakin, Luke, and Rey.



Well, yeah. There are legit criticisms for Rey, and that's never been a problem.

And literally no one is saying anyone in here is sexist. Just that some of the particular arguments made about Rey come FROM sexist arguments. Not that people are outright misogynists.

Oh, come on, calling out the whole "Space Jesus" dumb thing was a big point in his Revenge of the Sith review.
Anwyay, no one really cares about Anakin.

 

[sphagnum]

I get the feeling this is going to be rather important to TLJ.

https://mobile.twitter.com/DelReyStarWars/status/908413943785410560/photo/1

 

[Surfinn]

Oh, come on, calling out the whole "Space Jesus" dumb thing was a big point in his Revenge of the Sith review.
Anwyay, no one really cares about Anakin.

That's not "Anakin is too powerful, his successes and achievements are unearned".

The bolded is my ENTIRE point.

 

[THE GUY]

Anakin was just a huge failure, wasn't he? Supposedly "chosen" but rolls around in some grass before being manipulated, killing some children, getting mauled by his teacher, and at some point dying. Maybe by the hands of his own son as it would fit how pathetic he is.

But also not after he's given birth to the same son who accomplishes nothing of meaning (I assume since I have not seen V and VI) that's now in hiding while some offshoot of the original threat murders ten billion people in the most recent movie.

Not to mention, Anakin's grandkid killed his own father, and is responsible for the murdering of those people too. Who knows what he'll do next?

Like, this family is a curse. Space Hitlers basically.