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True Detective - Season 2 - We get the Season we deserve - Sundays on HBO

Dr.Acula

Banned
Wait, wait, wait. Hold up.

Reading a few more responses in here and people actually think Ani knew the moment Velcoro was offed? You people need help.

His death scene was just intercut with her coming to the grips of reality that she was fooling herself and let herself be fooled by Velcoro into thinking he would ever make it out alive.

Those of you criticizing that scene for being incredibly dumb need to realize you're criticizing an invention of your own making.

It's just cheap editing for an emotional payoff. They did the same thing with Woodrough. It's soap-opera level story telling.

Frank told Ani to meet his wife at that park in Venezuela or whatever. You can assume that since both of them have to start their lives over again in a foreign country that they'd probably stick together for some company at the very least.

It seems totally unlike Ani though. She likes ignoring family, alienating friends and coworkers, knife-fighting, and being a badass. The fact that she arrived in South America, met with whatshername to deliver Vince Vaughan's message, and is still hanging out with her nine-plus months later is super weird for her character.
 
While watching it, I was actually hoping for a bait and switch - where we were being set up to believe Velcoro wasn't going to make it out alive, but he does and Ani is the one that is offed.

I feel like the empowerment of women in TV and film has resulted in another kind of sexism lately, where leading women are allowed to go through some shit, so long as they're never the ones to be unceremoniously killed in the end. I can't think of a leading woman whose been allowed to die like Woodrough or Velcoro. Instead it's once again the women mourning the martyrdom of the men - and I kind of hate that.
I was hoping for something similar. Either a total bait and switch like you describe, or tbh I wouldn't have minded Velcoro living and showing up in Mexico. Some will think that is cheesy but in such a bleak show it would have been nice. That's more of a personal thing. Instead we get him going out and upload failed for the salt in the wound.
 
It seems totally unlike Ani though. She likes ignoring family, alienating friends and coworkers, knife-fighting, and being a badass. The fact that she arrived in South America, met with whatshername to deliver Vince Vaughan's message, and is still hanging out with her nine-plus months later is super weird for her character.

She doesn't like her family, but she's reconciled that and done a lot of self reflection in the last 2-3 episodes. She even treated her cop partner, Elvis, with some respect. And better to have some friends, however loosely connected they may be, than no friends in a foreign country. And if it wasn't for Frank, she wouldn't have escaped. She owes him to at least deliver a message. I never saw Ani as heartless, just someone who hates her dad and doesn't like romance. But she's still capable of empathy such as when looking for that lady's sister. There's a lot to pick apart with obvious flaws and inconsistencies, but this isn't one of them.
 
wtf did I just watch...

2b97Z6t.jpg
Ha. I really liked S2 but this killed me.
 

Dr.Acula

Banned
She doesn't like her family, but she's reconciled that and done a lot of self reflection in the last 2-3 episodes. She even treated her cop partner, Elvis, with some respect. And better to have some friends, however loosely connected they may be, than no friends in a foreign country. And if it wasn't for Frank, she wouldn't have escaped. She owes him to at least deliver a message. I never saw Ani as heartless, just someone who hates her dad and doesn't like romance. But she's still capable of empathy such as when looking for that lady's sister. There's a lot to pick apart with obvious flaws and inconsistencies, but this isn't one of them.

She delivered the message when the meet was supposed to happen two weeks after she arrived. She then went through her entire pregnancy and gave birth, and the two were still hanging out? And Frank's bodyguard is still there, they're just hanging out as friends? Seems forced.
 

neoism

Member
THANK FUCK its over... finale succcked this season was terrible... smh...
skipping any other seasons.... real shame... s1 was just fucking amazing... smh....
 
She delivered the message when the meet was supposed to happen two weeks after she arrived. She then went through her entire pregnancy and gave birth, and the two were still hanging out? And Frank's bodyguard is still there, they're just hanging out as friends? Seems forced.

What seems forced? That a pregnant fugitive would cling to the only two people who would remotely seem like potential allies? I don't care how much money you have, if you're a single mother in a new country you'll need as much help as you can get.
 

duckroll

Member
While watching it, I was actually hoping for a bait and switch - where we were being set up to believe Velcoro wasn't going to make it out alive, but he does and Ani is the one that is offed.

I feel like the empowerment of women in TV and film has resulted in another kind of sexism lately, where leading women are allowed to go through some shit, so long as they're never the ones to be unceremoniously killed in the end. I can't think of a leading woman whose been allowed to die like Woodrough or Velcoro. Instead it's once again the women mourning the martyrdom of the men - and I kind of hate that.

That's not empowerment of women in TV and film, that's Pizzaman being unable to write any sort of characters who operate in a real world setting that isn't dominated by the motivations of men. He just sucks at it, so when he thinks "damn I want a strong woman" the only thing that comes off the page is a fighter woman who survives and pines after her man. It's not another kind of sexism, it's just the same sort of sexism, just executed due to incompetence rather than deliberate intent.
 
She delivered the message when the meet was supposed to happen two weeks after she arrived. She then went through her entire pregnancy and gave birth, and the two were still hanging out? And Frank's bodyguard is still there, they're just hanging out as friends? Seems forced.

Doesn't seem the least but forced to me. Ani clinging to somebody in the exact same situation of hiding out/surviving who has just gone through an almost identical loss because of the same fucked up conspiracy? Seems like they would relate to each other pretty well in a place where everything is foreign and they're just trying to survive.
 

Partition

Banned
Doesn't seem the least but forced to me. Ani clinging to somebody in the exact same situation of hiding out/surviving who has just gone through an almost identical loss because of the same fucked up conspiracy? Seems like they would relate to each other pretty well in a place where everything is foreign and they're just trying to survive.

The ending was nicely wrapped up in the fact that Velcoro's son was actually his, Ani got something to remember Velcoro by, and Frank's wife gets to help raise a child that she will never be able to have on her own.
 

jond76

Banned
I want a GIF of Velcoro blasting that first blackwater dude in the forest. That was cool.

I was hoping he could grab one of their ARs after he killed them.
 

duckroll

Member
The ending was nicely wrapped up in the fact that Velcoro's son was actually his, Ani got something to remember Velcoro by, and Frank's wife gets to help raise a child that she will never be able to have on her own.

All men die fighting, all women care about are babies. The Wonderful World of Nic Pizzolatto. :)
 
Yeah, they should've had Velcoro live and give birth to the baby... Wait...


;)

Velcoro X Ani never should have happened in the first place. Should have been a relationship of mutual respect. I can probably buy them hooking up for a one time fling. A one last fuck before they go on a suicide mission. But her conceiving Ray's baby is too much for me. Never bought that their relationship went that far.
 
All men die fighting, all women care about are babies. The Wonderful World of Nic Pizzolatto. :)

Starting to get a little reductive there, ducky.

I know it's easy to paint that picture with literally all three of the leading men's women having some baby-related connection to them, but I think the character-theme this season has been more about the idea of a legacy left behind - whether it's Frank's for his and Joy's future (potential child), Ray's legacy in the eyes of his (ultimately legitimate) son, and even Woodraugh's.
 
Wait, wait, wait. Hold up.

Reading a few more responses in here and people actually think Ani knew the moment Velcoro was offed? You people need help.

His death scene was just intercut with her coming to the grips of reality that she was fooling herself and let herself be fooled by Velcoro into thinking he would ever make it out alive.

Those of you criticizing that scene for being incredibly dumb need to realize you're criticizing an invention of your own making.

its cuz they did the same thing when tim riggins died and cut to his girl crying in the hotel room

edit: someone already addressed that my bad
 

labx

Banned
Nic at the end is a one hit wonder guy. Not for his own merits but because the director and cast of S01. Shame on him.
 

duckroll

Member
Starting to get a little reductive there, ducky.

I know it's easy to paint that picture with literally all three of the leading men's women having some baby-related connection to them, but I think the character-theme this season has been more about the idea of a legacy left behind - whether it's Frank's for his and Joy's future (potential child), Ray's legacy in the eyes of his (ultimately legitimate) son, and even Woodraugh's.

No, it's really not reductive. I'm convinced that he's a total hack after this season. It's easy to paint that picture because it -is- the picture. The Pizzaman just cannot write a story about women as women without being some sort of a tool for a man. And this isn't just a sexism thing. His men are awful too. They're hilariously exaggerated throwbacks to "oldschool" men who are violent self-destructive hypocrites and often view sex as some sort of shame or temptation. I really think it's clear he's just a terrible writer who lucked out in the first season because the material perfectly matched the talent available and he was able to polish it up by collaborating with them.
 
Man, the pizza-hate is in full force.

Again, we have to keep in mind that Pizzolato polished the first season's story over a period of 5-6 years.

I envy no man who has to write 8.5 hours worth of drama in less than a year and is expected to follow up that first season. That is beyond a monumental task. It feeling unpolished and scrappy isn't super surprising - I don't care how talented a writer you are.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Did someone say Pizzaman can't write women?

Well I never.
Miyamoto says the true bushi divorces himself from desire, but in tonight’s shadows her eyes tugged at something in my lungs that ran down to the place behind my abdomen where chi is stored, and I’m compelled to think of Mabel, so I spend the rest of my shift practicing guided meditation. In the lotus position, I close my eyes and focus on the Blue Triangle where I store the egoless self, trying not to remember Mabel’s laugh and the cleft at the base of her spine, the taste of her sweat or the purple bathwater that covered her on our last night together.

The morning grows noisy, feels too bright. “What?” If I keep lying, what are my odds? She’s much smaller than me, and I consider a yonkyo nerve pinch to make her unconscious. But I’d still have a problem when she woke up. “What do you want?”

He seemed genuinely aghast. “Are you saying, Mom, that if there’s no heaven, there’s no reason to be good?”

She shrugged. She hadn’t thought that was what she said, but maybe she had. It sounded dumber when he said it.

“Being good means doing so without thought of reward, Mom. You’re the one who’s supposed to teach me that.”

“We’ll have to get you riding. You would love it. I bet you’d love a fox hunt. I’ll cut your hair and teach you to ride. I know you would love that. It’s just the kind of thing a man like you enjoys.”

(Choice quotes from Between Here and the Yellow Sea, by Nic Pizzaman)
 

duckroll

Member
Man, the pizza-hate is in full force.

Again, we have to keep in mind that Pizzolato polished the first season's story over a period of 5-6 years.

I envy no man who has to write 8.5 hours worth of drama in less than a year and is expected to follow up that first season. That is beyond a monumental task. It feeling unpolished and scrappy isn't super surprising - I don't care how talented a writer you are.

I've said this same thing before though. But there's a difference between not envying someone and not criticizing the outcome. This is still the bed he made. His choice. He is the showrunner, he decided he wanted this format, he decided he wanted to proceed this way, he decided what he shat out was good enough to put out there. So yeah, I guess the "shitty decisions" theme of S2 extend to the creator too. :p


Where did the baby come from in the end?

Ray's balls making up for lost time.
 

FlowersisBritish

fleurs n'est pas britannique
I actually really enjoyed this season finale, and i do really enjoy the theme of legacy left behind Scullibundo pointed out. I also really enjoyed the old school tough guy motif a lot of characters had going. For me, that was ultimately sold by Velcoro in a cowboy hat. I loved Frank's death scene, because I think it was the single most interesting scene in the entire season. I feel that it would be nice if I hadn't known it was 90 minutes. It felt like we were supposed to sigh with relief but then go "wait, why is it still going?" That said, season one's was so much better because I ascribe to the belief that killing characters off is easy, finding resolution where they go on living is much better yet tougher.

Also, I do enjoy Pizzaman's writing. He likes to do a lot of philosophical allusions within it, a lot of high minded reference, and just a lot of interesting ideas being thrown around. I think season 1 was way better at keeping those ideas within a singular theme. A lot of the big ideas at play here, but none seem to really go anywhere. That said, the philosophical allusions don't happen often in TV so I give him big points for that.

Finally, agree wholeheartedly with Duckroll that he can't write woman for shit. I had a little hope(don't know why?) but fuck Ani was kinda terrible most of the way. Which is a shame, because there's a lot of things I like about her character, and one of the thing I liked about the opening of the finale was that it put them in a sort of equal footing. A footing completely lost about a half hour in. Also why did they hook up anyways? They had little chemistry at all. Another disheartening trend I noticed was how she (who is clearly supposed to embody various feminist views) was pretty constantly batted down by authority male figures for those views.

I dunno? I'm reserving season 3 to full decide if Pizzaman is shit. Hoping it'll be an all female cast in the style of Charlie's Angels so I can make that decision immediately.
 

Burt

Member
No, it's really not reductive. I'm convinced that he's a total hack after this season. It's easy to paint that picture because it -is- the picture. The Pizzaman just cannot write a story about women as women without being some sort of a tool for a man. And this isn't just a sexism thing. His men are awful too. They're hilariously exaggerated throwbacks to "oldschool" men who are violent self-destructive hypocrites and often view sex as some sort of shame or temptation. I really think it's clear he's just a terrible writer who lucked out in the first season because the material perfectly matched the talent available and he was able to polish it up by collaborating with them.

I don't see how Ani was a tool for Velcoro, or how Jordan was a tool for Frank. Neither of them 'just cared about babies', and that's absolutely an incredibly reductive statement about both of those characters. The sex-negative attitude of the season wasn't restricted to the men, was a pretty much omnipresent theme of the season, and culminated in a positive experience for the characters involved, so I don't know what you're getting at there. If you do want to attack if from the gender angle, at least go for the victimization of women. Ray's wife was raped, Ani was raped, and the blame for Jordan and Frank's inability to conceive is put more heavily on Jordan. Yeah, Ray's wife was a means to a Ray-end, but that's literally what auxiliary characters are for.

There was a reason things ended up the way they did, though, and it wasn't because men have to die and women have to care about babies. "We get the world we deserve" was hammered home more than enough to make that clear. Frank and Ray got what they deserved for obvious reasons, and the cause of Woodrough's death was explicitly stated before they took him down into the tunnel. Ani and Jordan, on the other hand, were innocent, and got out relatively unscathed.

I'm not saying it was done well, but there are some pretty clear thematic lines built in that don't require bringing in any outside speculative gender-related arguments.
 
Matt Zoller Seitz weighing in for NY Mag:

- True Detective: What Went Wrong
What went wrong? We’ll find out eventually, the Internet being what it is, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the culprits weren’t ego and time: Too much ego, not enough time. In the aftermath of season one’s success (deserved, I’d say), Pizzolatto, a literary fiction writer by trade, became an overnight wunderkind showrunner philosopher-king. He parted ways with season one’s sole director, Cary Fukunaga, and hired a bomber crew of guest directors (including Justin Lin, who helmed the first four). In interviews like this one, he seemed to go out of his way to assert primary authorship—perhaps understandably, considering that most of the positive attention paid to season one had to do with the show’s direction, photography, music, and acting, while most of the complaints (including the ones about sexism) were about the writing. Pizzolatto committed to solo-writing season two fast enough to get it on HBO just 15 months after the season-one finale. Given all this, it’s not hugely surprising that the result feels like a first or maybe second draft rather than a polished final product. The break in the middle (after the shootout) makes the final four play like a re-do, and there aren’t enough mirrored elements to make it seem as though it’s all part of some grand design, the intricacies of which will be revealed if you stare at the thing long enough.

I’m not ready to write off Pizzolatto, though, because if this season was a failure, as I believe it was, at least it was a singular failure, a morose pastiche of neo-noir, the civic corruption story, James Ellroy’s crime fiction, and ham actor fantasies of “edginess.” (Cocaine! Knives! Molestation! Arson! Sex parties!) I wish Pizzolatto could have had another year to work on it, but only if he’d hired a writing staff experienced in untangling a spaghetti-blob of plot threads, and perhaps a powerful showrunner unafraid to tell him that he isn’t good at everything, and that there’s no shame in moving over and letting other people drive sometimes.
 

FlowersisBritish

fleurs n'est pas britannique
Matt Zoller Seitz weighing in for NY Mag:

- True Detective: What Went Wrong

In general, I really do like the writing of Season 1. It really was the strongest part of that season for me. Besides that minor complaint, agree completely with everything he said. The more you think about it, the chances of Season 3 being good feel slim.

To touch on the sexism, I'm really surprised there wasn't more nudity in this season. Usually HBO shows try to force in some TnA but there wasn't any in here that felt particularly off.
 

Einchy

semen stains the mountaintops
I talked earlier about how I wish Justin Lin would've directed all of the episodes. The first 2 were beautiful while the rest didn't have great cinematography. Wouldn't say the later episodes looked bad but they didn't compare to the first two.
 
I talked earlier about how I wish Justin Lin would've directed all of the episodes. The first 2 were beautiful while the rest didn't have great cinematography. Wouldn't say the later episodes looked bad but they didn't compare to the first two.

I completely disagree. Lin's episodes felt completely tone-deaf.

Those lingering, slow-mo shots on Ray and Frank in the blues bar. Jesus. Talk about trying too hard.
 

Dennis

Banned
Nils is the father, right?

Looks like he won. Living down south with two lovely ladies. Played his cards right. Last man standing.
 

ezekial45

Banned
Matt Zoller Seitz weighing in for NY Mag:

- True Detective: What Went Wrong

Yep, it's pretty correct much all around. They need to go back to treating this show like an event series, or like the first season, just like one long movie. This season felt too much like a TV show with famous actors in the lead roles. There was some great imagery in spots, but there was nothing that really wowed like in S1.

I really do think they should have a single director (someone with a lot of talent and clout) for the next one, in addition to giving it extra time to develop. I'd fucking love for someone like Paul Thomas Anderson to handle directing True Detective.
 
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