• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • The Politics forum has been nuked. Please do not bring political discussion to the rest of the site, or you will be removed. Thanks.

Xbox Series X’s BCPack Texture Compression Technique 'might be' better than the PS5’s Kraken

Spitfire098

Member
Dec 4, 2020
72
336
250
So which one is better Microsoft's compression technique or Sony's? Because control has a 42% smaller install size on the PS5 compared to the Xbox series X, did Microsoft really drop the ball on this compared to sony? How could Sony have such a better compression technology? Does Sony have the better compression technology? https://www.psu.com/news/control-ul...series-x-due-to-kraken-compression-technique/
questions asking GIF by Grandfathered
 

M1chl

Currently Gif and Meme Champion
Dec 25, 2019
10,145
18,760
975
Prague, Czech Republic
So which one is better Microsoft's compression technique or Sony's? Because control has a 42% smaller install size on the PS5 compared to the Xbox series X, did Microsoft really drop the ball on this compared to sony? How could Sony have such a better compression technology? Does Sony have the better compression technology? https://www.psu.com/news/control-ul...series-x-due-to-kraken-compression-technique/
Well since Control is moneyhatted by Sony I would not draw the conclusion just yet, also Kraken is not proprietary, it's just a technology for others to use.
 

Sleepwalker

Member
Jan 8, 2012
1,379
1,942
810
Canada
So which one is better Microsoft's compression technique or Sony's? Because control has a 42% smaller install size on the PS5 compared to the Xbox series X, did Microsoft really drop the ball on this compared to sony? How could Sony have such a better compression technology? Does Sony have the better compression technology? https://www.psu.com/news/control-ul...series-x-due-to-kraken-compression-technique/

My PS5 can hold about 3-5 games max at the same time and is already failing to download update because its out of storage. They could have the best compression technology in the history of compression technology but what they needed was adequate storage space.


And yes I'm mad, I don't want to juggle games around just to be able to play multiple things, and I can't even buy a SSD to expand it yet.
 

Bittermich

Banned
Sep 4, 2020
516
1,674
340
So which one is better Microsoft's compression technique or Sony's? Because control has a 42% smaller install size on the PS5 compared to the Xbox series X, did Microsoft really drop the ball on this compared to sony? How could Sony have such a better compression technology? Does Sony have the better compression technology? https://www.psu.com/news/control-ul...series-x-due-to-kraken-compression-technique/
control is a PS plus game and heavily advertised game by Sony.
Of course devs give more time to optimize for PS5.
It has nothing to do with technicals but more with marketing.
 

DarkMage619

Member
Jun 19, 2004
2,833
4,653
1,600
So which one is better Microsoft's compression technique or Sony's? Because control has a 42% smaller install size on the PS5 compared to the Xbox series X, did Microsoft really drop the ball on this compared to sony? How could Sony have such a better compression technology? Does Sony have the better compression technology? https://www.psu.com/news/control-ul...series-x-due-to-kraken-compression-technique/
This was one game. Can you really jump to these conclusions based on this title? Unless I'm missing other games with a significant size difference.

My PS5 can hold about 3-5 games max at the same time and is already failing to download update because its out of storage. They could have the best compression technology in the history of compression technology but what they needed was adequate storage space.


And yes I'm mad, I don't want to juggle games around just to be able to play multiple things, and I can't even buy a SSD to expand it yet.
I wonder when Sony will activate their SSD bay? People criticized MS for their expensive expansion but it was available day 1 and you could always offload games to a cheap external drive. Sony offered none of that and there is no date when that will change. A bit of a bummer indeed.
 
Last edited:

Bo_Hazem

Gold Dealer
Feb 10, 2020
16,466
76,749
965
35
Salalah, Oman
Last edited:
May 8, 2020
3,833
9,299
640
The way the hardware is built is better on PS5. The compression techniques will/are available to Xbox (Oodle etc). Once API's/techniques are up to par, it comes down to the way the hardware was engineered.
 
Last edited:
  • LOL
  • Like
Reactions: Bo_Hazem and Riky

SlimySnake

Member
Feb 5, 2013
10,772
29,397
1,240
Xbox has more tflops. It's only natural it would also have bigger games.

pretty sure this has nothing to do with ps5 or Xbox specs. You will get the same stuff on pc and the switch as the gen goes on. this might actually be the case of Xbox compression tools being behind.
 

Codeblew

Member
Jun 24, 2010
1,557
370
950
Well since Control is moneyhatted by Sony I would not draw the conclusion just yet, also Kraken is not proprietary, it's just a technology for others to use.
It is proprietary because you have to buy a license to use it. Unless you use it on PS4 and PS5 since Sony bought a license for all developers of those platforms to use.
 

Codeblew

Member
Jun 24, 2010
1,557
370
950
Well Microsoft uses BCPack for their compression I guess what I really want to know is which is better, BCPack or Kraken?

Kraken and BCPack are two different things. You can use Kraken ontop of BCPack and the same devs of Kraken have a way to optimize BCPack compression with Kraken. Although it is a bit lossless on the textures.

Edit: muteZX muteZX mentioned the name I forgot, Oodle Textures.
 
Last edited:

cyber69

Member
Sep 21, 2018
2,013
3,516
395
So which one is better Microsoft's compression technique or Sony's? Because control has a 42% smaller install size on the PS5 compared to the Xbox series X, did Microsoft really drop the ball on this compared to sony? How could Sony have such a better compression technology? Does Sony have the better compression technology? https://www.psu.com/news/control-ul...series-x-due-to-kraken-compression-technique/

You clearly missed the memo. Wait for the tools to arrive. Until then, enjoy the short victory.
 

Bramble

Member
Jan 15, 2016
369
382
415
My PS5 can hold about 3-5 games max at the same time and is already failing to download update because its out of storage. They could have the best compression technology in the history of compression technology but what they needed was adequate storage space.


And yes I'm mad, I don't want to juggle games around just to be able to play multiple things, and I can't even buy a SSD to expand it yet.

Let me guess: you have 1 or 2 Call of Duty's installed? That's more of an issue with these games, than it is with the storage. I have 330GB available on my PS5 SSD and installed Spider-Man Remastered, Spider-Man Miles Morales, Demon's Souls, Control Ultimate Edition, Bugsnax, Destruction Allstars, Sackboy and Astro's Playroom and on top of that I also installed 2 PS4 games so the loading is a bit quicker: RE2 and Minecraft. That's 10 games, 8 of them being dedicated PS5 games, with 330GB still available (!). I'm curious how you got to 3-5 games and have no space left.

I also have a 5TB external HDD hooked up that holds about 2TB of PS4 games, with a lot of stuff I don't even play (games for my kids and stuff I just downloaded from PS Now to try out).

So yeah I'm good for now.
 
Last edited:

pasterpl

Member
Feb 8, 2020
1,911
3,641
540
So which one is better Microsoft's compression technique or Sony's? Because control has a 42% smaller install size on the PS5 compared to the Xbox series X, did Microsoft really drop the ball on this compared to sony? How could Sony have such a better compression technology? Does Sony have the better compression technology? https://www.psu.com/news/control-ul...series-x-due-to-kraken-compression-technique/

Sony actually Is using 3rd party solution, so answer to your question is Microsoft, as Sony doesn’t have one, they are using 3rd party, while ms got their own, in house developed solution.

what is interesting, why cross gen first party games from Sony don’t show such a big difference eg. Miles morales PS4 version is almost identical size wise as ps5 version

i would like to see if there will be more games showing such a difference in game size?


looking at most releases to date for both consoles it seems that there were no other games using this approach on either console, so it might be a case of tools not being ready yet (for both)
 
Last edited:

bender

Bending Rodríguez (22, 1,729)
Apr 12, 2010
9,725
14,622
1,420
Sony actually Is using 3rd party solution, so answer to your question is Microsoft, as Sony doesn’t have one, they are using 3rd party, while ms got their own, in house developed solution.

what is interesting, why cross gen first party games from Sony don’t show such a big difference eg. Miles morales PS4 version is almost identical size wise as ps5 version

i would like to see if there will be more games showing such a difference in game size?

Hitman 3 with all the H1-H2 levels installed is 59.65 GB on PS5. IIRC my Hitman 2 install with H1 levels loaded was north of 100GB on PS4.
 

DinoD

Member
Mar 7, 2020
449
1,141
340
Xbox has more tflops. It's only natural it would also have bigger games.

pretty sure this has nothing to do with ps5 or Xbox specs. You will get the same stuff on pc and the switch as the gen goes on. this might actually be the case of Xbox compression tools being behind.

SX has bigger flaps, but PS5 flaps faster :D
 
  • LOL
Reactions: Mr Moose and jroc74

JerryinSoCal

Member
Apr 11, 2020
921
1,501
380
My PS5 can hold about 3-5 games max at the same time and is already failing to download update because its out of storage. They could have the best compression technology in the history of compression technology but what they needed was adequate storage space.


And yes I'm mad, I don't want to juggle games around just to be able to play multiple things, and I can't even buy a SSD to expand it yet.
What games do you have loaded? I have 17 loaded on mine including AAA games like AC: Valhalla, Control, WD Legion, MK 11 Ultimate, God of War, Spider-Man remastered, Miles Morales, Days Gone, Immortals Fenyx Rising, Demon's Souls, Sackboy PS5, ME: Andromeda as well as a few smaller to mid sized games like Man Eater, Astro's Playroom, Concrete Genie, WWE Battlegrounds, Warframe and Destruction AllStars. If you can only fit 3-5 games are they all Call of duty or something? Make sure you don't have both the PS4 and PS5 versions of your games on the SSD.
 
Last edited:

JackMcGunns

Member
Nov 26, 2018
533
957
330
  • LOL
Reactions: Bo_Hazem

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Jun 7, 2004
18,877
12,557
2,110
Holy necro bump Batman!

Except that Control has a larger file on XSX for other reasons, look it up.
Care to link these reasons?

All I see is speculation and money hatting accusations. It might be that there are issues with how game developers have to package their games that MS needs to fix, but again that is not something we have lots of data on either in the public domain.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bo_Hazem

captainraincoat

Gold Member
Nov 15, 2010
5,248
8,036
1,240
Care to link these reasons?

All I see is speculation and money hatting accusations. It might be that there are issues with how game developers have to package their games that MS needs to fix, but again that is not something we have lots of data on either in the public
So what does $250 million buy you?

By the looks of it a smaller filesize of a game that runs like crap on any platform its on
 

muteZX

Banned
Jul 11, 2019
314
410
290
20% to 50% oodle, BCPack is 50% as well its a wash.

There is obviously more than a simple compression ratio .. others parameters starting with supported BC formats, RDO, speed of decompression etc.


What we don't know is how optimized BCPack is. Does it support all BC7 modes, or just a few? How effective is it vs. the crunch library for BC1-5? Does it support a wide range of quality levels? Can it work in parallel with HW decompression?
— Richard Geldreich (@richgel999) March 22, 2020
 

Negotiator101

Member
Jan 24, 2021
1,394
1,849
340
There is obviously more than a simple compression ratio .. others parameters starting with supported BC formats, RDO, speed of decompression etc.
Microsoft are actively improving it as well, but you are right the numbers aren't available.
 
  • Like
Reactions: muteZX

FranXico

Member
Dec 7, 2010
13,850
27,052
1,420
  • Like
Reactions: Bo_Hazem and Md Ray

Negotiator101

Member
Jan 24, 2021
1,394
1,849
340
Kraken combined with Oodle is better than BCPack. The PS5 has built-in hardware support too.
But Kraken + Oodle can be used in any platform.
Well Kraken is better than ZLIB for general compression. Oodle is for textures as is BCPack, the numbers are not there for BCPack to make a comparison though. Microsoft are actively improving BCPack as well.
 

muteZX

Banned
Jul 11, 2019
314
410
290
XsX has hardware decompression engines Zlib /general data/ + BCPack /textures/.
PS5 has hardware decompression engines Kraken /general data/ + Oodle /textures/.

It seem that Kraken easily beats Zlib and lets say that Oodle and BCPack are equal, but we lack the exact data.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bo_Hazem
Dec 10, 2020
1,781
3,842
380
XsX has hardware decompression engines Zlib /general data/ + BCPack /textures/.
PS5 has hardware decompression engines Kraken /general data/ + Oodle /textures/.

It seem that Kraken easily beats Zlib and lets say that Oodle and BCPack are equal, but we lack the exact data.

But you have it
With BCpack + Zlib is 4.8GB ( max 6.) on Xbox
Kraken alone is ~9GB, with Oodle texture is 13-15 GB on average on PS5 (max. 22)


Zip 1.64 to 1
Kraken 1.82 to 1
Zip + Oodle Texture 2.69 to 1
Kraken + Oodle Texture 3.16 to 1
 
Last edited:

Captain Toad

I advertise for PlayStation. For free.
Dec 1, 2020
2,923
8,334
595
So what does $250 million buy you?

By the looks of it a smaller filesize of a game that runs like crap on any platform its on
Are you seriously saying Remedy purposefully made the file size huge on the Series S|X because Sony paid them to do so?

Some people will jump through any number of mental hoops to continue believing what they want to be true.
 

ethomaz

is mad because DF didn't do a video on a video of a video of a video on PS5
Mar 19, 2013
40,226
40,778
1,310
39
Brazil
I read in another forum that the install size is higher on xbox because they also included the version for the old consoles. They didn't want to use smart delivery.:lollipop_pensive:
That is clearly made up bullshit.
PS4 version is similar in size to Xbox version.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Bo_Hazem

ethomaz

is mad because DF didn't do a video on a video of a video of a video on PS5
Mar 19, 2013
40,226
40,778
1,310
39
Brazil
Well Microsoft uses BCPack for their compression I guess what I really want to know is which is better, BCPack or Kraken?

You should compare BCPack loosy texture compression to Oodle.

Kraken is lossless and general use.

Loosy compression has better % because you know you lose quality... lossless is the same quality without any quality loss so the % is smaller.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Bo_Hazem

muteZX

Banned
Jul 11, 2019
314
410
290
But you have it
With BCpack + Zlib is 4.8GB ( max 6.) on Xbox
Kraken alone is ~9GB, with Oodle texture is 13-15 GB on average on PS5 (max. 22)


Zip 1.64 to 1
Kraken 1.82 to 1
Zip + Oodle Texture 2.69 to 1
Kraken + Oodle Texture 3.16 to 1

PS5 - raw SSD speed 5.5 giga/sec x optimistic "mixed" 3.16 aggregated ratio = circa 17+ giga/sec .. lets say its ingame 9-18 giga/sec and HW decompressor has theoretical limit at 22 giga/sec.
XSX - raw SSD speed 2.4 x optimistic "mixed" 2.69 aggregated ratio = circa 6+ giga/sec .. lets its 4-6 ingame giga/sec

mixed = "data" + textures.

Something lika that, eh .. but in fact both texture compression metods /BCPack and Oodle/ can be performance-wise/features set quite similar.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bo_Hazem

AgentP

Thinks mods influence posters politics. Promoted to QAnon Editor.
Jun 5, 2011
8,143
3,152
1,145
Holy necro bump Batman!

Except that Control has a larger file on XSX for other reasons, look it up.
"Look it up" - You mean something Allandor pulled out of his butt with no evidence on Beyond3D? This is how the Internet works I guess, people spread crap around and hope no one does look it up. The files size is consistent on all platforms including the PC, the only outlier is the PS5. This nonsense about the XBO and XSX versions being glued together is horseshit.