• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • The Politics forum has been nuked. Please do not bring political discussion to the rest of the site, or you will be removed. Thanks.

Xbox Series X’s BCPack Texture Compression Technique 'might be' better than the PS5’s Kraken

jroc74

Phone reception is more important to me than human rights
Jun 1, 2013
8,968
3,938
850
Isn't it 30.2GB on xbox?
35GB according to some posts I've seen. So yeah, on both consoles its small. Just smaller on PS5.

EDIT, ok...it does say 30 on the XSX.
 
Last edited:

Riky

My little VRR pleasure pearl goes vrrrooommm.
May 11, 2013
3,489
6,738
985
England
Both are coming so it’s not like they don’t have it. Additionally, expandable storage will have better options going forward as there are many different brands of SSD that fit the spec for the PS5. Meanwhile, you have a single SSD option from the worst storage manufacturer on the market LOL. If it means I have to wait for a Samsung or Western Digital, it’s worth the wait than paying for that thing from Seagate who’s barely just started making SSDs and has the nerve to charge a premium.




As we saw with the interesting Halo showing. Microsoft’s still selling the structure of a 4 generations old game and couldn’t even get it right on time to launch with a console that’s literally advertising it on the back of the box but yeah, whatever.

Rather than people saying the first 1-2 years of a console is largely for early adopters to slowly migrate over and work out the kinks for future purchasers everyone needs to chill out acting like there’s some clear winner on any side, especially considering most people can’t even buy one if they wanted too.

It's better to have an option than no option, Microsoft have said there will be other manufacturers and options in time plus you can play some Series games from an external on top. Saying it's ok because it's coming later is the same position that MS are in for what they are being criticized for, it's coming later.
Why couldn't Sony manufacture their own option?
 

FritzJ92

Member
Jul 19, 2020
348
523
295
It's better to have an option than no option, Microsoft have said there will be other manufacturers and options in time plus you can play some Series games from an external on top. Saying it's ok because it's coming later is the same position that MS are in for what they are being criticized for, it's coming later.
Why couldn't Sony manufacture their own option?
Literally. If you are defending expected features as "its coming" so its okay, then whatever MS has whoever waiting on you could also say "its coming" so its okay.
 

Rea

Member
Jul 7, 2020
841
3,440
410
Dude, Trust Me!n!!!!!!!!!!!!

Would appreciate more that you would be less confident in your assumptions as DF did not suggest this themselves. Other people suggested it is how much resource it gets from the CPU, not how much speed the SSD is throttled.

And your sorry ass response did not answer my question, why would they throttle their SSD speed for compatibility? Most games on PC has no problem running on SSD without any modifications.
Try watching the video from DF, analyzing Nioh2 ps5 upgrade, you will see why BC in PS5 Ssd is slow.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DonF

Md Ray

Member
Nov 12, 2016
2,762
9,001
695
India
I literally slammed my hand on the desk at the moment he interrupted
Speed Run Lol GIF by FaZe Clan


Btw, wasn't it Dealer who said "lol it's math 40 to 50 fps on GPU alone" or some shit like that?
 

SenjutsuSage

Member
Jan 23, 2010
10,652
3,731
1,260
Yeah, I dont doubt what the Series consoles are doing is good too, but I highly doubt its that good, lol.

Maybe some folks are hung up on MS giving their file system setup a nice catchy name and Sony didnt.

Well, the catchy name certainly helps. Xbox Velocity Architecture does have a pretty nice ring to it. Kudos to the man, or woman, who came up with it. :)

And while it's simply the name of their chosen compression format and Sony weren't the ones who named it, Kraken is a pretty big fish in the buzzword department lol. I mean there's nothing subtle about that.

This is the guy working on the Xbox compression side of things and presumably quite a few other things graphics related at Xbox. He has said some pretty interesting things.




So, going off what he just said, with both BCPack and Sampler Feedback Streaming in play, If a game requested, say, 14GB worth of texture data, Sampler Feedback Streaming's memory efficiency benefits would instantly slash that demand down to just 5.6GB of data. But since BCPack is in play with its 50% or better compression ratio that 5.8GB is actually compressed using BCPack and is instead 2.8GB, which with the 4.8GB/s SSD bandwidth with compression at play in effect the Series X could decompress an effective 14GB of data into RAM in an unbelievable 0.58 seconds. Honestly guys, we aren't ready for what dev teams will be able to do with this at the highest levels. Incredible stuff is going to be achieved with this kind of tech. And let this one sink in, both next gen consoles after PS5 and Series X will be much more powerful than an RTX 3090, potentially even in ray tracing performance also. Wowzers.


This is the guy working on the Xbox compression side of things and presumably quite a few other things graphics related at Xbox. He has said some pretty interesting things.
 

SenjutsuSage

Member
Jan 23, 2010
10,652
3,731
1,260
Speed Run Lol GIF by FaZe Clan


Btw, wasn't it Dealer who said "lol it's math 40 to 50 fps on GPU alone" or some shit like that?

Hmm, don't know if he would have gone that far, but very few of these guys are really ever actually experts on this stuff. I know I sure as hell am not. Just hardcore fans of gaming giving our armchair assessments of very complex tech.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Boglin

laser_printer

Member
Dec 10, 2019
2,487
4,195
490
Sactown
It's better to have an option than no option, Microsoft have said there will be other manufacturers and options in time plus you can play some Series games from an external on top. Saying it's ok because it's coming later is the same position that MS are in for what they are being criticized for, it's coming later.
Why couldn't Sony manufacture their own option?

Yeah well where are they? We know which ones from a specification standpoint will be capable of using when it’s enabled meanwhile we still only have seagate, which you couldn’t pay me to use from a reliability standpoint.

plus you can play some Series games from an external on top.

You mean Xbox games with enhancement’s like Ghost of Tsushima and Days Gone with a 4K/60 patch that runs from a spinning disk? Games built for the S|X won’t operate from anything but a SSD by Microsoft’s own admission.

Saying it's ok because it's coming later is the same position that MS are in for what they are being criticized for, it's coming later.

That’s my personal opinion. Even by Sony’s own admission SSDs that could run wouldn’t release until later since their research Is the reason SSDs are going to reach that speed anyway. Then again, I personally don’t even see the point of extra storage for these things unless you’re playing previous gen games, which honestly, is all the series has.
 
Last edited:

Boglin

Member
Jul 26, 2013
336
699
545
This is the guy working on the Xbox compression side of things and presumably quite a few other things graphics related at Xbox. He has said some pretty interesting things.


I wish I saw this tweet the other day when we were talking about the PRT stuff. It would have saved us a lot of time
 
  • Like
Reactions: SenjutsuSage

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Jun 7, 2004
18,819
12,392
2,110
14GB worth of texture data, Sampler Feedback Streaming's memory efficiency benefits would instantly slash that demand down to just 5.6GB of data. But since BCPack is in play with its 50% or better compression ratio that 5.8GB is actually compressed using BCPack and is instead 2.8GB, which with the 4.8GB/s SSD bandwidth with compression at play

You are double counting compression here. You used BCPack to get the texture to 2.8 GB and then you are using the 4.8 GB/s effective SSD bandwidth (which takes the peak 2.4 GB/s bandwidth and applies the average compression rate the zlib + BCPack block delivers to get the 4.8 GB/s number their PR quoted). In your example you are 0.4 GB off in short.

Also, from Stanard’s words + the quotes from the demo + the dev(s) commenting on the thread there is not a 2.5-3x efficiency difference between PRT and SFS/PRT+.



 
Last edited:

Thief1987

Member
Jan 8, 2018
511
1,304
455
BCPack is in play with its 50% or better compression ratio that 5.8GB is actually compressed using BCPack and is instead 2.8GB, which with the 4.8GB/s SSD bandwidth with compression at play in effect the Series X could decompress an effective 14GB of data into RAM in an unbelievable 0.58 seconds.
Series's ssd bandwidth is 2.4 GB/s, you already compress your data from 5.8 to 2.8, so it will be more than a second, not 0.58. Seems like you are too excited to make correctly even basic calculations.
 
Last edited:

pasterpl

Gold Member
Feb 8, 2020
1,891
3,583
540
Some people make it sound like Microsoft wasn't even planning to release a console. I mean the claims that they were not ready with so many things seems a bit dumb to me. Just wait till they fix this just wait till they release date. And we had Demon Souls at launch on the other side plus Miles Morales.

Just odd that one manufacturer wasn't ready at all while the other isn't having issues.
you mean like Sony with cold storage, 1440p, vrr support, and expansion bay working? At least one console maker released a fully operational hardware where only dev tools are behind, while other is still enabling things on the hardware side.
 
Last edited:

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Jun 7, 2004
18,819
12,392
2,110
you mean like Sony with cold storage, 1440p, vrr support, and expansion bay working? At least one console maker released a fully operational hardware where only dev tools are behind, while other is still enabling things on the hardware side.
Both consoles are operational, software (drivers or tools, one affects games being made far more than the other) is apparently late for both, but I suspect one is being pushed as a stronger narrative because there is still hope for a domination on the HW front and not an acceptance that the consoles are closer to each other than some people would want them to wrt third party games especially. Anyways, this is enough of a thread derail for me :).
 

jzosa

Neo Member
Mar 4, 2020
17
33
135
you mean like Sony with cold storage, 1440p, vrr support, and expansion bay working? At least one console maker released a fully operational hardware where only dev tools are behind, while other is still enabling things on the hardware side.
No. He means Sony who has released next-gen games such as Demon's Souls, Miles Morales, Returnal, and in a few weeks, Ratcht and Clank.

What about cold storage, 1440p,and expansion bay? Are these features so essential that you'd brag about having these over having the ability to play next-gen games on a next-gen console?

If, other than BC games, that's all the advantage you have at the moment, well enjoy those features, then.
 

Rea

Member
Jul 7, 2020
841
3,440
410
So, going off what he just said, with both BCPack and Sampler Feedback Streaming in play, If a game requested, say, 14GB worth of texture data, Sampler Feedback Streaming's memory efficiency benefits would instantly slash that demand down to just 5.6GB of data. But since BCPack is in play with its 50% or better compression ratio that 5.8GB is actually compressed using BCPack and is instead 2.8GB, which with the 4.8GB/s SSD bandwidth with compression at play in effect the Series X could decompress an effective 14GB of data into RAM in an unbelievable 0.58 seconds.
Your math is wrong, 14gb should be raw data, with SFS 14÷2.5=5.6 raw. The speed is 5.6÷2.4÷ 2* = 1.667sec.
Note* compression ratio of Zlib+Bcpacks for textures.
Edit: 1.1667
 
Last edited:

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Jun 7, 2004
18,819
12,392
2,110

Negotiator101

Member
Jan 24, 2021
1,242
1,558
340
It can hit ~18 GB/s (in realistic scenarios, not just remote edge cases) which is the maximum speed of the decoder: http://cbloomrants.blogspot.com/2020/09/how-oodle-kraken-and-oodle-texture.html
The official 8-9 GB/s figure did not take into account Oodle Texture.
From the article "The result is that we expect the average compression ratio of games to be much better in the future, closer to 2 to 1"

"We expect", it's basically an assumption and all theoretical. I'd take that article with a large grain of salt my friend.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Jun 7, 2004
18,819
12,392
2,110
From the article "The result is that we expect the average compression ratio of games to be much better in the future, closer to 2 to 1"

"We expect", it's basically an assumption and all theoretical. I'd take that article with a large grain of salt my friend.
This is not a random article but something from Oodle’s engineering team, it reads more like “we cannot out developers and their unannounced games, but since we are working with them on implementing Oodle Textures and fine tuning it we know that…”.

Still, sure you can keep underestimating those engineers that do not jump on bombastic PR bandwagons with big buzzwords and marketing campaigns. Look at Dual Sense latency improvements, Sony did not even mention them but by the law of marketing since they did not mention it or made a big deal out of it you should have not expected anything at all.

I am under no illusion that most games will have that kind of compression ratio, but real games can hit those numbers and in edge cases they can almost saturate the decoder bandwidth. Yes, it is a bigger number and yes it will be best used by first parties than third parties.
PS5 invested a lot of money (and silicon real estate) in their I/O solution and they made compromises in other parts of the chip to make it all work and still hit high enough production volumes, not sure why it sounds surprising that they did best their competitor in this area (and were bested in others).
 
Last edited:

Lysandros

Member
Jul 28, 2020
865
3,197
350
I'd just like to point out that neither of these machines are powerful enough to display textures using all of the VRAM in these machines at a good framerate, so you guys arguing over IO speed isn't really that meaningful from a player perspective.
Displaying textures has very little to do with GPU processing power and everything to do with data throughput.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rea

Shelookdlvl18

Member
Nov 8, 2020
469
905
320
No. He means Sony who has released next-gen games such as Demon's Souls, Miles Morales, Returnal, and in a few weeks, Ratcht and Clank.

What about cold storage, 1440p,and expansion bay? Are these features so essential that you'd brag about having these over having the ability to play next-gen games on a next-gen console?

If, other than BC games, that's all the advantage you have at the moment, well enjoy those features, then.
You mean next-gen games like Demons Souls which released the gen before last?
Or do mean next-gen as in a dlc held hostage to PS5 in order to persuade people into buying the console, as well as likely doubling the price?
Oh... Okay, yeah Returnal. The game that would've gone unnoticed if it released where it had to compete against other content? (At least the pro xbox side is smart enough to not go around hyping The Medium.)

Of course!!! You mean Ratchet and Clank. Why didn't you mention this from the beginning? Yes, Ratchet and Clank is finally that PS5 exclusive that will really show off the PS5's potential. It's looking to be a beautiful game that will definitely be the best looking game on consoles so far bar none.




For a month or so at which point it will be soundly surpassed by MS Flight Simulator.
 
Last edited:

Thief1987

Member
Jan 8, 2018
511
1,304
455
Displaying textures has very little to do with GPU processing power and everything to do with data throughput.
It's not surprising reading this from a person with nintendo avatar. They are still somewhere in ps2 age with 360p games, it's understandable that they have little knowledge of modern tech.
 
Last edited:

Rea

Member
Jul 7, 2020
841
3,440
410
Displaying textures has very little to do with GPU processing power and everything to do with data throughput.
Many people don't know that textures are basically, just like pictures in their smart phones with different format.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lysandros

Bill O'Rights

Seldom posts. Always delivers.
Staff Member
Dec 5, 2017
397
2,968
625
Folks


Stay on topic please, the tech and implementations. If you want to have petty little snipe fights then take it to PM please. Reply bans will be issued from this point forward. At this point no one has had warnings or reply bans so let's keep it that way and discuss the detail in the different approaches.


 

Godfavor

Member
Jul 10, 2020
177
144
205
Stii seeing that SenjutsuSage continues his spin crusade. It is 6 GB/s max for decompression for XSX SSD, nothing more, nothing less.
I'm really curious why Xbox fans trying so hard to spin things. It is like they have it inborn
From the eurogamer article:

"Our second component is a high-speed hardware decompression block that can deliver over 6GB/s," reveals Andrew Goossen. "This is a dedicated silicon block that offloads decompression work from the CPU and is matched to the SSD so that decompression is never a bottleneck.

 
Last edited:

dvdvideo

Member
Sep 15, 2005
2,281
2,265
1,680
I feel like at some point, some new tech in terms of rendering that reduces the bandwidth / load will make all of this pointless/look like a dinosaur. Something for next gen or the one after......
 

Entroyp

Gold Member
Jul 28, 2017
4,429
12,001
650
Are there any real world examples of BCP having any advantage? Like in real games and not only MS whitepapers or tech demos?
 

Dolomite

Member
May 14, 2020
1,463
3,118
615
Yeah well where are they? We know which ones from a specification standpoint will be capable of using when it’s enabled meanwhile we still only have seagate, which you couldn’t pay me to use from a reliability standpoint.

plus you can play some Series games from an external on top.

You mean Xbox games with enhancement’s like Ghost of Tsushima and Days Gone with a 4K/60 patch that runs from a spinning disk? Games built for the S|X won’t operate from anything but a SSD by Microsoft’s own admission.

Saying it's ok because it's coming later is the same position that MS are in for what they are being criticized for, it's coming later.

That’s my personal opinion. Even by Sony’s own admission SSDs that could run wouldn’t release until later since their research Is the reason SSDs are going to reach that speed anyway. Then again, I personally don’t even see the point of extra storage for these things unless you’re playing previous gen games, which honestly, is all the series has.
Wait wait hold on, let me get this straight.
☑️So the Series consoles launched out of the gate with expandable storage solutions, and are offering more 3rd party options down the line

☑️Sony launches with less storage, and here we are Six months later with no viable compatible expandable storage options

❎Both MS and Sony promise more options soon, but only MS is wrong? Are they lying? I'm confused
 
Last edited:

SenjutsuSage

Member
Jan 23, 2010
10,652
3,731
1,260
Series's ssd bandwidth is 2.4 GB/s, you already compress your data from 5.8 to 2.8, so it will be more than a second, not 0.58. Seems like you are too excited to make correct even basic calculations.

I'm not so sure I missed on the calculation. I definitely know I messed up on something I said earlier in a pretty hilarious fashion that even I myself started laughing at, but I suspect my current understanding may be accurate now.

So here is my thinking.

If the game requests 14GB of texture data, Sampler Feedback Streaming's efficiency should cut that 14GB texture demand to a more efficient 5.6GB due to the 2.5x efficiency advantage.

And here comes the part where some think I messed up or double counted compression. Keep in mind what SFS has done initially is not considered "compression." Cutting the demand to 5.6GB of actual texture data isn't compression, that's just SFS intelligently informing the system of all it will need for the current scene.

One way to look at this is to say that SFS is telling the system it needs 5.6GB of texture data.
Another way to look at this is SFS is telling the system it needs 2.8GB of BCPack format input data decompressed into main memory.

The number for the calculation must be 2.8GB otherwise after decompression it's no longer 5.6GB of textures. If the number used for the calculation is 5.6GB then that's 11.2GB worth of textures after decompression, double what SFS suggested is needed.

That's why I don't think the below calculation in the quoted post by Rea can work 5.6 / 2.4 / 2, which would equal 1.16 seconds. That calculation is the Series X decompressing 11.2GB of textures into main memory, way more than what was called for.

5.6GB of data being decompressed is actually 11.2GB of texture data, not the 5.6GB of texture data that Sampler Feedback Streaming suggests is actually required.

So the calculation is actually 2.8GB / 2.4GB/s / 2 = 0.58 seconds.
Another way to do it is to get rid of the 2 at the end and simply do this 2.8GB / 4.8GB/s = 0.58 seconds.


What are people missing? Just because Sampler Feedback Streaming says 14GB of data isn't required and cuts it down 5.6GB of texture data, do not confuse that 5.6GB to be the COMPRESSED data size. The compressed data size for 5.6GB worth of textures using BCPack is lower still at 2.8GB. It only becomes 5.6GB of texture data after decompression.


Your math is wrong, 14gb should be raw data, with SFS 14÷2.5=5.6 raw. The speed is 5.6÷2.4÷ 2* = 1.667sec.
Note* compression ratio of Zlib+Bcpacks for textures.
Edit: 1.1667

Going off of my post above, I think people only think my calculation is wrong because they are using the wrong data point. People are using the end result rather than the compressed size of 5.6GB worth of textures, which with BCPack is 2.8GB.

Even with Cerny's 2GB / 5GB / 1.5 example. That data is only 2GB in its compressed form, but once it's decompressed into main memory, it's actually 3GB of data. 2GB * 1.5 compression ratio gets you 3GB. In the same Cerny example, the 5GB/s SSD actually becomes 7.5GB/s with compression. This is why if you do 2GB / 7.5GB/s you get the exact same 0.27 result.

This is my understanding of how it works. 5.6GB is what will be in RAM after decompression, but it shouldn't be confused to be the same as the data size in its 50% compressed form, 2.8GB.
 
Mar 27, 2020
12,230
33,697
720
Uncharted bunghole
Wait wait hold on, let me get this straight.
☑️So the Series consoles launched out of the gate with expandable storage solutions, and are offering more 3rd party options down the line

☑️Sony launches with less storage, and here we are Six months later with no viable compatible expandable storage options

❎Both MS and Sony promise more options soon, but only MS is wrong? Are they lying? I'm confused

It would have been pretty expensive for Sony to go above 1TB with their SSD. I understand why they did it since it was the only way to offer that speed at an affordable price. As for Sony not allowing any expandable memory options it's probably because they need to make sure the SSDs on the market offer the same experience. Microsoft uses a proprietary solution so it's easy for them to offer that option while with Sony it's alot more difficult given the nature of their SSD.

It's definitely coming in the future and will offer the same experience as the soldered drive but the question is when?

Edit: I prefer Sonys solution because it will give PS5 owners access to a wide variety of NvMes on the market at a cheaper price. But I do admit that Microsofts solution is more convenient even though you pay a higher price for it.

Edit 2: I actually thought about a way that Microsoft can easily allow Series owners to access off the shelf NVME market. All they need to do is release a shell that allows people to put approved NVMEs into it. Since the Series I/O isn't as fast as the PS5s those options should be even cheaper. I think it's a great idea for them to explore.
 
Last edited: