kyliethicc
Member
Agreed
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Xbox portfolio team on TLOU2
- Thread starter onesvenus
- Start date
I honestly disagree.
In TLOU2:
* combat usually ends up in close range attacks where melee combat and human-shield tactics take-over. The game continuously pushes the enemy closer to your distance as if their long-range weapons are useless.
* Also, shooting a gun in TLOU2 feels inaccurate because of the continuous interference of the animations with your movement. You usually have to end up fighting against the animation to be accurate enough for a kill (this is something that also happens to be true for RDR2).
In MGSV:
* You are fighting AI that simply don't know how to use any meaningful tactics (in ranged combat) and any ranged combat usually ends up in a gun shootout where you end up winning.
I haven't played Vanquish, so can't comment on it.
For me, the best gunplay experience was provided by Max Payne 3 (I honestly don't know how Rockstar ended up with the gunplay in RDR2), followed by Gears of War.
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cormack12
Gold Member
No chance. And it's these takes that are so extreme that make me believe hardly anyone plays actual games. Even Control and The Division 2 shits on gunplay in TLOU II.
Hardly none of what you mention is 'gunplay'. Animations of enemies? Top notch but not gunplay. Enemy reactions amazing but not gunplay.
Gears has amazing gunplay, and you'd expect it to given the competitive scene. Put it into context counter strike has none of those things you've listed but has excellent gunplay. MGS is miles ahead as well. Like literally miles.
Fredrik
Member
Yeah this is standard practise, in all industries, I’ve done this too in other fields, it’s not bashing a competitor but praising, dissecting and getting inspired by good things other teams are doing in the same industry.
There is a reason why Breath of the Wild is seen in other open world games now, why Gears of War is seen in other third person shooters, why Uncharted is seen in other story based games, why Minecraft is seen in crafting games, etc.
It’s still cool to get to see this type of document though. And it gets me excited for the future of MS 1st party games. TLOU set the bar high, anyone that tries to reach that type of presentation will end up with a great product even if they don’t reach the target.
.
sainraja
Member
You are discrediting him but not really providing what you think makes 'good' gun play. There is nothing wrong with the gunplay mechanics in The Last of Us. Since you mentioned Gears, what makes its gunplay amazing?
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Thirty7ven
Banned
So the definition of good gunplay is... being a bullet hell? Doesn’t make any sense. The gunplay in TLOu2 is top of the class, and it’s universally praised.
sainraja
Member
Destiny 2 is also the main game I have been playing (almost too much these days) and I love its gunplay. But I don't think you can compare that to a third person shooter. Not in any meaningful way.
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
It’s when they go full fanatic retard, they circle around and diss themselves.
xion4360
Member
I enjoyed TLOU2's combat, but I can see what they mean when they say you're more or trained to favor stealth because the gunplay isn't optimal from a strategic point of view. If the gunplay felt better, I don't think that would just mean you could go guns blazing anyway, but perhaps having "worse" gunplay makes you avoid it even more as a player.
Still, I love Uncharted and TLOU and think the gunplay is serviceable. It's not as snappy or fluid or diverse as Gears, sure, but maybe it's not supposed to be.
Still, I love Uncharted and TLOU and think the gunplay is serviceable. It's not as snappy or fluid or diverse as Gears, sure, but maybe it's not supposed to be.
Thirty7ven
Banned
Best TPS gunplay since Max Payne 3. But there’s a scale and I’m ok with people who have different opinions. Saying it’s not even decent is just... being on the wrong side of history and a bit damning honestly, in this context where people responsible for evaluating it actually affect game development.
Maxwell Jacob Friedman
leads to fear. Fear leads to xbox.
What makes good gunplay is bullet sponges then? Because thats what those games are and if you're going to deny that the systems in place such as those things dont contribute to good gunplay then I have no idea what to tell you because its directly correlated in how you makes games a certain way.
TLOUp2 is just as much as engaging as those examples above except their characters arent bullet sponges and take several shots to die because the games are built that way.
Counterstrike whilst has its following has probably some of the most boring gun play that has aged poorly, counterstrike is nothing but a glorified peak game now.
when I think engaging I think not just actual weapons I think of attention to detail, animations, reactions, the feel, the sound the rawness of gameplay etc, not how much bullets it takes in a magazine to down an enemy.
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greencoder
Member
Because they know something about games, unlike the media.
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cormack12
Gold Member
I didn't say there was anything wrong with TLOU II, read my first post. My contention is that people putting it into the top bracket of great gunplay is wrong.
There seems to be two schools in this thread. A group of people who are concerned with what happens after the bullet has gone. The effects, animations, blood, reactions etc. How it looks, and the pressure is exerts on the player. Which is fine, but they are emotive player reactions which will vary across a range.
The other school is focused on gun in hand mechanics - responsiveness, accuracy, movement/smoothness, consistency, no artificial gimmicks like sway etc.
Which is fine. TLOU II is not meant to be a TPS. It is focused on stealth the majority of the time, and limited bullets/resources. The whole game is built round making you feel vulnerable despite having guns. Its slow paced shooting doesn't marry with the head shot centric meta either (e.g. Abbys rifle) when compared to the fast enemies.
The gunplay is decent in a vacuum of best available route and stealth. As soon as you're off one of those tracks the ability to shoot your way out via skill is extremely limited (assuming not easy/1 hit modifier) because of the limitations in the 'gunplay'. You have to get back onto the track (re-enter stealth), run past encounter (where possible) or have resources set to light.
cormack12
Gold Member
The division 2 has excellent gunplay and you can argue veterans or elites are bullet sponges.
Try another approach with the argument. You tell me 3 games which have better gunplay than TLOU II
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Ass of Can Whooping
Member
TLOU2 excels in all of those areas (gun sway is a toggle thing) on top of the excellent animation, brtuality and feedback
cormack12
Gold Member
No. And an accessibility feature is not an 'option'.
And this is why I pass over most of your posts on this board.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
It’s in the first sentence of the OP, gotta love discovery phases in court cases.
Which puts a lot of things into perspective as to why some cases are refused to see the light of day, even when your gut feels something is there.
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Spitfire098
Member
Occasionally decent game recognizes game.
Ass of Can Whooping
Member
Uhh, yes it is?
If you're someone that's prone to consuming too much salt i'm not suprised you pass over my comments
Hope you get better one day. Truth hurts
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HarryKS
Member
Yes, but where did they go to find those scanned docs?
harmny
Banned
yeah it's funny that a "microsoft confidential do not share" file becomes public because of a fight between epic and apple. i would be pissed if i was microsoft.
Maxwell Jacob Friedman
leads to fear. Fear leads to xbox.
What makes it good
cormack12
Gold Member
Ah, the highly original rebuttal favoured by teens between 14 and 17 when trying to save face. Cool story bro. You keep enjoying your shooting mechanics at a surface level. Doesn't bother me. And it shouldn't bother you.
I will answer when you answer the question asked of you that you have tried to redirect and avoid.
Ass of Can Whooping
Member
It doesn't bother me at all
I'm not the one getting triggered and throwing shit over a game I haven't played because people are praising it's excellent gunplay
Grow some balls and daddy might praise you one day
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GrayFoxPL
Member
Wtf at the person writing this? "Quick switch" is literary there.They failed to learn the use of R1, which allows quick swapping between weapons.
They specifically say this was needed, but it literally exists. No need to use the D-dap to switch weapons. Just tap R1.
And I love the guns in Part 2. Feels great.
Couldn't they warn him he's making muppet out of himself?
cormack12
Gold Member
Don't cry dude. It's just a game discussion.
Your mask slipped with your last comment. We can see who's triggered clearly. That frustration leading to needing to try and get some shitty comeback in. C'mon then, what's the next one? There's two directions you can go. Let's see which one you pick.
Also just so you know:
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Ass of Can Whooping
Member
I'll see what I can come up with
In the meantime you can continue to bitch and moan about other people's opinions
Recore was great. Wouldn't have it any other way. Housemarq would probably make a very good and very different game I wouldn't want.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
From the court documents on the case about Epic vs Apple comes this image. A review by the Xbox portfolio team (whoever they might be) about the last of us 2.
There are some curious tidbits there as them downplaying the gunplay (which I agree has never been ND biggest point) and them saying that should be what they aim to do on the next gen.
They should focus on Crackdown 3 and other Xbox games instead. This is as stupid as PlayStation reviewing Sea of Thieves.
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vaibhavpisal
Member
Then I presume you havent used shotguns in gears 5? One of the most satisfying things in gaming, get close to enemies and reduce them to chunks with well placed gnasher shot.
Gameplay changes a lot depending on your and enemy weapons. If your enemy is using torque bow, you cant just pop out and shoot at will.
Not to mention most scenarios end with enemies overwhelming all cover positions due to numbers. no idea why you think combat is static.
If its gameplay was'nt good, people wouldnt be playing it all these years later. Not to mention there wouldnt be any xbox fanboys or sales.
For me personally, i never played online before cause I get shot by ruthless killers. This is first time I am having fun online. Its designed to be fun and enjoyable, not stressful.
Kerotan
Member
This is literally pert of a console war.
MS are analysing what Sony do in an effort to better themselves and have a higher chance of beating Sony in future. They're not spending money on this because they're fans of Sony or some weird BS.
kyliethicc
Member
Who's to say they aren't focusing on Crackdown 3 in post-mortems.... why wouldn't you keep a pulse on other companies? I guarantee Google and Apple review each others stuff.
I would be surprised if Sony hadn't reviewed Sea of Thieves internally (this document isn't meant to be public btw). Sony is likely looking at Microsoft's GaaS games like Sea of Thieves and strategizing on what they can learn to make their multiplayer games in the future find success.
Sony is hiring for multiplayer projects, quietly. They will continue to make AAA single player stuff, but it's pretty naive to think they aren't keeping a pulse on MP/GaaS titles and wanting to get in on that action.
Represent.
Represent(ative) of bad opinions
Lmfao wow. You literally cant take these gameplay bashers seriously. .They failed to learn the use of R1, which allows quick swapping between weapons.
They specifically say this was needed, but it literally exists. No need to use the D-dap to switch weapons. Just tap R1.
And I love the guns in Part 2. Feels great.
This game quite literally has the best combat ever in a game. Yeah I said it. NOTHING is more visceral than this game
Bo_Hazem
Banned
meanwhile at Sony HQ
Literally that.
It's funny that they say not others are just lacking talent, but also the money, including xbox indeed because you know it's xbox themselves. This further proofs that Xbox doesn't have the guts to pour big cash and give enough time to make iconic, top tier games.
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Mr Moose
Member
And here was me thinking I was just not that good at aiming in 3rd person games (I suck).
How does the court case between Epic and Apple leak so much from MicroSoft?
How does the court case between Epic and Apple leak so much from MicroSoft?
Aaron Greenberg reading this comment
DForce
NaughtyDog Defense Force
That's what you want to believe because you don't want to accept the fact that it was the voter's game of the year.
Kerotan
Member
I want to be well paid at Sony to spend my time playing the Xbox exclusives!meanwhile at Sony HQ
anthony2690
Banned
Amusingly really well written review, written better than the majority of reviewers out there.
My personal biggest gripe with ND ganes though, I personally don't find their games fun to play, and I usually think the combat/gunplay isn't good.
But I can definitely see the appeal of their games, especially to a casual audience that just want a cinematic experience.
My personal biggest gripe with ND ganes though, I personally don't find their games fun to play, and I usually think the combat/gunplay isn't good.
But I can definitely see the appeal of their games, especially to a casual audience that just want a cinematic experience.
Represent.
Represent(ative) of bad opinions
I don think MS has a single studio that could match the production values, gameplay and writing that ND achieved with this game.
To be fair, neither does Sony lol.
I LOVE to see the back and forth haymakers ND and Santa Monica throw at eachother with every release though.
I didnt think the original TLOU was topped until God of War 2018. Then I didnt think God of War would be topped.. Then TLOU 2 came out and crushed it.
Cant wait to see how Santa Monica replies.
This is why internal competition is so important and a bigger win for gamers than just buying corporations.
To be fair, neither does Sony lol.
I LOVE to see the back and forth haymakers ND and Santa Monica throw at eachother with every release though.
I didnt think the original TLOU was topped until God of War 2018. Then I didnt think God of War would be topped.. Then TLOU 2 came out and crushed it.
Cant wait to see how Santa Monica replies.
This is why internal competition is so important and a bigger win for gamers than just buying corporations.
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digoutyoursoul
Member
I’d like to ask them what went on last generation for a start.
Guilty_AI
Member
they developed games, unlike game reviewers
Spokker
Member
Gathering intelligence is a part of war.
sainraja
Member
Fair enough I guess but once you've upgraded your weaponry in TLOU: P2 the gunplay & gameplay shines on its own with its versatility. The thing that makes ND games work is how they blend mobility with gunplay which a game like Gears does not provide. That doesn't make the gunplay weaker or the game's weak point. The gunplay in the game is still very good but the game is designed so you have to be careful in how you use it. Those are completely separate things so you can't try to use that as an excuse to say why one point is weak and I don't think gunplay is a weakness for ND games.