Thirty7ven
Banned
Bro what about Mario Kart
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Why has Gran Turismo managed to maintain it's relevance on the market while Forza Motorsport is struggling?
- Thread starter SimTourist
- Start date
Bro what about Mario Kart
I'm not sure if this still holds up but traditionally Gran Turismo did most of it's sales in Europe, no? If that's still the case, I'd think it's simply a result of Microsoft failing epicly around here.
I mean, I really don't think Americans realize how bad Microsoft is doing around here.
This was my local toystore last thursday. Its part of the largest toystore chain in the Netherland and this is the entire gamingsection. Sure, the entire thing has downsized considerably in the last 10 years, but the right half is still fully stocked with Switch titles, cards, consoles and accesories. The left half has tons of PS4 and PS5 stuff and a bit of PSVR. Meanwhile, literally the only things they had related to Xbox were 5 games. No consoles. No controllers or anything. Just 5 games. Xbox could just exit our market and no one would even notice.
I mean, I really don't think Americans realize how bad Microsoft is doing around here.
This was my local toystore last thursday. Its part of the largest toystore chain in the Netherland and this is the entire gamingsection. Sure, the entire thing has downsized considerably in the last 10 years, but the right half is still fully stocked with Switch titles, cards, consoles and accesories. The left half has tons of PS4 and PS5 stuff and a bit of PSVR. Meanwhile, literally the only things they had related to Xbox were 5 games. No consoles. No controllers or anything. Just 5 games. Xbox could just exit our market and no one would even notice.
TheGodfather07
Member
Because its what Microsoft do. Look how big halo and gears used to be before. Look at rare before Microsoft acquired them. Look how they fucked up when sony gifted them a generation to grow with the 360. It always happens everytime.
Freelance Yakuza
Member
Gran Turismo 6
Gran Turismo 6 is a comprehensive racing simulator that allows fans to drive a prolific collection of cars on the world's most legendary racetracks.
www.metacritic.com
Forza Motorsport 5
By learning how you and your compatriots drive, the utility of the cloud delivers real human behavior. Drivatar technology creates an evolving network of opponents who are consistently ready to take up the wheel. Real tendencies, real mistakes, real victories. Truly feel what it is like to own...
www.metacritic.com
Gran Turismo 7
From classic vehicles and tracks to the reintroduction of the legendary GT Simulation Mode – GT 7 brings together the best features from past installments of the series alongside the future. An even more realistic driving experience awaits thanks to haptic feedback, which brings to life what...
www.metacritic.com
Forza Motorsport
Out-build the competition in the all-new career. Race your friends in adjudicated multiplayer events. Compete in over 500 cars on world-famous tracks with cutting edge AI, advanced physics, and tire and fuel strategy.
www.metacritic.com
GT Sport got a score of 75, so it was probably surpassed by the equivalent Forza title.
Now, if you're talking about the Horizon series, then yes, they usually receive scores of 90 or higher, and Sony has no equivalent.
Mowcno
Member
Gran Turismo 1 and Gran Turismo 2 combined sold over 19m units on their own on PS1. That's more than the entire Forza Motorsport Series as of April 2021. Time is not the reason.
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Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
Both games have 8 iterations.
One franchise (8 games) has sold 16 million copies. The other franchise (8 games) has sold 90 million copies.
So, yes, one franchise has maintained its relevance, while the other one kind of never gained it. Also, in terms of recent sales:
SEGAvangelist
Gold Member
We all know that GT7 score would be lower if Sony hadn't manipulated it by delaying the microtransactions during the review process.81 vs 79Gran Turismo 6
Gran Turismo 6 is a comprehensive racing simulator that allows fans to drive a prolific collection of cars on the world's most legendary racetracks.
Forza Motorsport 5
By learning how you and your compatriots drive, the utility of the cloud delivers real human behavior. Drivatar technology creates an evolving network of opponents who are consistently ready to take up the wheel. Real tendencies, real mistakes, real victories. Truly feel what it is like to own...
87 vs 85Gran Turismo 7
From classic vehicles and tracks to the reintroduction of the legendary GT Simulation Mode – GT 7 brings together the best features from past installments of the series alongside the future. An even more realistic driving experience awaits thanks to haptic feedback, which brings to life what...
Forza Motorsport
Out-build the competition in the all-new career. Race your friends in adjudicated multiplayer events. Compete in over 500 cars on world-famous tracks with cutting edge AI, advanced physics, and tire and fuel strategy.
GT Sport got a score of 75, so it was probably surpassed by the equivalent Forza title.
Now, if you're talking about the Horizon series, then yes, they usually receive scores of 90 or higher, and Sony has no equivalent.
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Gran Turismo and PD had a difficult transition to HD and PS3. That where much of PD’s reputation for being slow came from. GT6 releasing in PS3 after PS4 launched was a necessary sacrifice as they couldn’t make it run in PS4 as cross-gen.
GTS also received lots of flak due to limited content and a change in focus. But it was necessary to rebuild the franchise from the ground up. It ended up being a well respected GT title.
GT7 is essentially an evolution of GTS with many new and much requested returning features. For those interested, it’s also rumoured there is going to be a significant update in the next month or so.
GT8 will build on these foundations as the 3D assets (cars & tracks) are all built for PS5 and beyond. PD can focus on gameplay and structural improvements. While adding better textures and RT to improve the visual presentation further.
Sales wise no data has been released for GT7. But it has been tracking above Horizon Forbidden West in many markets. That title sold 8.4m by May ‘23. So it’s fair to say GT7 should comfortably surpass 10m.
Over at Microsoft Forza Horizon has won the hearts of the Xbox community. Forza Motorsport has always straddled the line with simcade more than GT. Fans expected a hardcore sim experience with the latest iteration, but T10 have missed the boat again.
There’s no doubt Forza Motorsport has had a pretty awful launch numbers wise. As of right now it has 2,262 players on Steam. On Xbox it’s not been pulling up any trees on the most played chart. I worry it’s another MS franchise that’s past it’s best days - but unlike Halo or Gears - MS will just double down on the Horizon series. Rather than trying to rebuild Motorsport.
I’d expect it sell well under 5m copes, probably closer to 3m. The next Forza Horizon will be huge if it’s city based in a location like Japan. If it’s another bland countryside/desert area… they may receive have complaints from players.
GTS also received lots of flak due to limited content and a change in focus. But it was necessary to rebuild the franchise from the ground up. It ended up being a well respected GT title.
GT7 is essentially an evolution of GTS with many new and much requested returning features. For those interested, it’s also rumoured there is going to be a significant update in the next month or so.
GT8 will build on these foundations as the 3D assets (cars & tracks) are all built for PS5 and beyond. PD can focus on gameplay and structural improvements. While adding better textures and RT to improve the visual presentation further.
Sales wise no data has been released for GT7. But it has been tracking above Horizon Forbidden West in many markets. That title sold 8.4m by May ‘23. So it’s fair to say GT7 should comfortably surpass 10m.
Over at Microsoft Forza Horizon has won the hearts of the Xbox community. Forza Motorsport has always straddled the line with simcade more than GT. Fans expected a hardcore sim experience with the latest iteration, but T10 have missed the boat again.
There’s no doubt Forza Motorsport has had a pretty awful launch numbers wise. As of right now it has 2,262 players on Steam. On Xbox it’s not been pulling up any trees on the most played chart. I worry it’s another MS franchise that’s past it’s best days - but unlike Halo or Gears - MS will just double down on the Horizon series. Rather than trying to rebuild Motorsport.
I’d expect it sell well under 5m copes, probably closer to 3m. The next Forza Horizon will be huge if it’s city based in a location like Japan. If it’s another bland countryside/desert area… they may receive have complaints from players.
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i stopped playing gran turismo at number 5, found it so sterile and the UI made me wanna throw my ps3 out the window, forza 2 was cool n all but it was 3 and 4 that cemented it for me, the racing just felt so much more fun to play.
they both have their markets, they are both very different experiences.
they both have their markets, they are both very different experiences.
Bumblebeetuna
Member
Not sure what you’re asking, OP. You admit Forza has never beaten GT in sales. And let’s be honest, it never will. PlayStation sells more than Xbox, and now there’s GamePass. Also GT is all PlayStation has for racing games really. Horizon exists on Xbox.
Secondly, let’s not act as if GT hasn’t been knocked down a peg or three since the days it dominated. Racing games in general have pretty much dried out. And this is like the nine hundredth post since FM launched that is shitting on FM for GaaS elements and launching “incomplete” while praising GT7, which also launched “incomplete”, and has those same GaaS elements (and goes even further with in game credit packs being sold for money). These are both iconic franchises with long histories of great games, essentially neck and neck in quality. It’s not wrong to pick one over the other, but let’s at least be consistent in the criticisms. GT is now a service game, just like FM.
Lastly, what does “limited sales and appeal” mean? You admit the game is on GamePass, we hear all the time here about how GamePass cannibalizes sales, so why would FM sales not be affected? It’s not only a racer but it’s a sim racer. And if we are talking sales and critics, GT used to sell 15,000,000 plus and used to score high 90’s in terms of MC. Now it sells maybe half that at best and has had MC scores of 84, 75, 87. So by your own definition it seems GT has done a pretty poor job maintaining its relevance
Secondly, let’s not act as if GT hasn’t been knocked down a peg or three since the days it dominated. Racing games in general have pretty much dried out. And this is like the nine hundredth post since FM launched that is shitting on FM for GaaS elements and launching “incomplete” while praising GT7, which also launched “incomplete”, and has those same GaaS elements (and goes even further with in game credit packs being sold for money). These are both iconic franchises with long histories of great games, essentially neck and neck in quality. It’s not wrong to pick one over the other, but let’s at least be consistent in the criticisms. GT is now a service game, just like FM.
Lastly, what does “limited sales and appeal” mean? You admit the game is on GamePass, we hear all the time here about how GamePass cannibalizes sales, so why would FM sales not be affected? It’s not only a racer but it’s a sim racer. And if we are talking sales and critics, GT used to sell 15,000,000 plus and used to score high 90’s in terms of MC. Now it sells maybe half that at best and has had MC scores of 84, 75, 87. So by your own definition it seems GT has done a pretty poor job maintaining its relevance
Gambit2483
Member
It doesn't chart on either Amazon's general or Xbox based 100 best seller list. As a premiere 1st party title you'd at least expect it to chart in the Xbox top 100 best sellers...but then again it's on Gamepass, which basically kills physical sales of most games on Xbox.
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Freelance Yakuza
Member
I had no idea, and yeah, it would be lower no doubt
Gran Turismo 7 Adding Microtransactions After Launch Is Terrible
Polyphony Digital's MTX strategy is suspicious.
screenrant.com
Snake29
RSI Employee of the Year
My opinion about the 2 games is that Forza wants to be a Gran Turismo game, while Gran Turismo already is better in general then Forza Motorsport. I personally like the vibe around GT, it feels more professional because of the FIA backing before. Also they work a lot with all these car manufacturers on concept vehicles and they also did the UI graphics for the real Nissan GTR if i remember correctly. I also love the whole eSports around GT series with the GT world series and previously GT Acadamy.
GT is a love letter for the Car industry and motorsport, Forza is more like a wannabe imo. I'm not saying that Forza is a bad franchise, but it feels less serious.
GT is a love letter for the Car industry and motorsport, Forza is more like a wannabe imo. I'm not saying that Forza is a bad franchise, but it feels less serious.
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PhillMeCream
Member
GT didn't fuck with the formula that made it what it is. T10 completely messed up forza, I don't have it in me to build up this one car in order to upgrade it.
demigod
Member
Goodluck breaking 1m sales let alone 3m. Half of those sales from previous Forza’s were from bundles.
Elysium44
Banned
I'd say they did. The old GT games never had the menu book tedium, they had a proper career mode. (Even the bare bones career mode that GT Sport got in an update is arguably less dull than the one in GT7.)
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demigod
Member
Blew my mind when I saw the money glitch with the rewind feature. Who the hell thought it was a good idea to put a rewind feature in a SIM RACING GAME? Like if you hit the wall or go off course, you can just rewind, how stupid.
Victor Omega
Member
NFL fans is to MADDEN like Formula One / Grand Prix fans is to GT.
that static consumer base alone, not included casual and hardcore gamers, is what set GT apart from Forza.
Asphalt is a better comparison to Forza. It's a the sim version of Asphalt: the dude bro racer
that static consumer base alone, not included casual and hardcore gamers, is what set GT apart from Forza.
Asphalt is a better comparison to Forza. It's a the sim version of Asphalt: the dude bro racer
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Bogroll
Likes moldy games
GT doesn't feel serious to me at all. Going to the Cafe, driving to music challenge and washing your car.
Calverz
Member
What sales data?
demigod
Member
Not really. We are forced to play Madden since the better game NFL 2K is no more thanks to the NFL.NFL fans is to MADDEN like Formula One / Grand Prix fans is to GT.
that static consumer base alone, not included casual and hardcore gamers, is what set GT apart from Forza.
Asphalt is a better comparison to Forza. It's a the sim version of Asphalt: the dude bro racer
Any sales data the game is pretty much being looked at as a Game Pass game now.
Bumblebeetuna
Member
I had no idea, and yeah, it would be lower no doubt
Gran Turismo 7 Adding Microtransactions After Launch Is Terrible
Polyphony Digital's MTX strategy is suspicious.
Yikes I didn’t even realize their MTX were added after launch. And there were a lot of complaints about the grind needed for credits when the game launched. Wonder what effect that had on reviews
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Elysium44
Banned
That isn't a good excuse. GT7 on a base PS4 doesn't look much worse than FM2023, on far inferior hardware. Also FM looking washed out is nothing to do with it either.
StealthGoblin
Banned
Both games have 8 iterations.
One franchise (8 games) has sold 16 million copies. The other franchise (8 games) has sold 90 million copies.
So, yes, one franchise has maintained its relevance, while the other one kind of never gained it. Also, in terms of recent sales:
Doing a double take here - surely that can't be right.
ChorizoPicozo
Member
yel, that 100 USD Starfield early access version did wonders to galvanized the defense force.
Chukhopops
Member
You probably didn’t pay attention to which part of the OP I quoted.
kirby007
Member
but you also have it for free with game pass, whats the cheapest edition of GT? on top of that looking at your post i assume you paid for your cars and didnt race for em
Calverz
Member
Ok so there is no sales data is there?
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Forza Horizon games consistently get better reviews than GT and FM.
Horseganador
Member
Forza came out less than a week ago and it seems like it came out a year ago, no sales, not even number of players, nothing, it seems that its only job was to have more ratings than Gran Turismo 7 and how it failed in that...on to something else .
Guilty_AI
Member
I've seen angry fans who would deeply disagree with you, especially with GT7.
On the topic, its the most relevant racing game on playstation as well as a big name. On xbox, Forza Horizon just sort of overtook Motorsport as the "main racing game" of the console. For reference, Forza Horizon 4 sold 10 million copies in less than a year.
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EverydayBeast
thinks Halo Infinite is a new graphical benchmark
Gran Turismo and Sony understands driving, very complex vehicles, my sense with Forza is they’re going arcady.
ChorizoPicozo
Member
look at the evolution of the discourse
1. Early access premium price point (incredibly positive )
2. Embargo day reviews ≈50% fewer reviews for such a big title ≈20% of those from Shill sites.
(positive quickly dropped by the big outlets IGN, PCGamer, and Game Spot)
3. the second batch of reviews mostly mixed.
3. Content creators on YT with long format reviews, critiques, and essays a little bit over a month after the honeymoon period are quite negative.
So, I agree with you. if you pay for something (especially at a premium) you will feel encouraged to defend your inversion. and this is exactly what we have seen.
FIREKNIGHT2029
Member
Passion.
You can feel the passion in every Gran Turismo game. Kaz is a perfectionist and it shows in GT7.
From the extremely highly detailed cars to the driving and physics and to the impressively implemented VR mode. I don't feel the same passion from Turn 10 and that might be why Forza is struggling but then again the Forza games have never done nearly as good as GT games at retail. This particular Forza feels like they've completely lost the plot though whereas previous Forza games felt good and relatively polished.
You can feel the passion in every Gran Turismo game. Kaz is a perfectionist and it shows in GT7.
From the extremely highly detailed cars to the driving and physics and to the impressively implemented VR mode. I don't feel the same passion from Turn 10 and that might be why Forza is struggling but then again the Forza games have never done nearly as good as GT games at retail. This particular Forza feels like they've completely lost the plot though whereas previous Forza games felt good and relatively polished.
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HeWhoWalks
Gold Member
Angry fans that make up a small slice of a big pie. GT continues to sell like it does because it mainly does what it does good enough.
demigod
Member
How much sales do you think it did? We can come back for October NPD.
Chukhopops
Member
It’s a fact that recent episodes sold less than GT5 for example, back in the PS3 days despite a much smaller install base.
My point is that sim racers are simply less relevant today, and more niche.
Senua
Member
Agreed, but the cafe stuff still sucks
HeWhoWalks
Gold Member
That "fact" was highlighted by me in the post.
Point is it still sells in large numbers. If 8 million is "niche", then so be it.
Senua
Fair enough, I'm not the biggest fan of that either.
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demigod
Member
That cannot be right, where did you get the 10m sales from?
Thirty7ven
Banned
Oh look some more bullshit just to include Forza Horizon while neglecting to mention there are plenty of third party racing games.
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