Support NeoGAF

[SimTourist]

I wanna hear your opinions.
Now, even during it's best years during Xbox 360 days Forza never actually overtook GT sales wise, peaking at estimated 5-6 million copies for Forza 3, but at least critically it was better acclaimed during that period and had a sizeable fanbase of it's own. But today it seems like GT continues to be a strong seller and manages to keep it's respectful position in the racing market, but the latest Forza already shows signs of limited appeal and sales even though it's on gamepass and includes console and PC.
Is it simply the effect of Playstation's general sales dominance, the growing popularity of Forza Horizon or the simracing space being a bit too crowded?

 

[Deerock71]

I don't think racing games in general hold the sway they once did.

 

[SkyHighTrees]

It's because it's embedded on people minds that Kaz really the OG

 

[Zones]

 

[AV]

GT = 8 main games released over 25 years
Forza = 8 main games released over 18 years with 5 full Horizon games in-between

It's more of an "event". Forza feels inevitable.

 

[Jibran#one]

Forza was ahead when Forza was releasing every 2 years , now forza released after 6 years with a game that's more or less unfinished and a bugfest at launch
Where as gt7 launched with good content online and offline.
Forza will be better over time but right now just like halo gears Microsoft with its gaas bullshit fucked Forza in the ass

 

[Gaiff]

OP makes claims but provides nothing to back them up.

 

[Calverz]

OP makes claims and provides nothing to back them up.

Yep. A joke thread but will remain open.

 

[Poltz]

Gran Turismo is 25 years old and stands alone in Sony 1st Party. Forza Motorsport has to contend with Forza Horizon.

 

[TexMex]

GT = 8 main games released over 25 years
Forza = 8 main games released over 18 years with 5 full Horizon games in-between

It's more of an "event". Forza feels inevitable.

I’d agree with this.

Also, outside of the 360, PlayStation consoles outsell MS ones by 3 to 1. There’s simply a significantly bigger audience, for a longer period of time.

 

[Gavon West]

Nothing but "feelings" displayed as facts here. There's absolutely NOTHING that suggests what the OP stated. Wild....

 

[artsi]

I'm a fan of both GT and Forza, I have logged over 50 hours in FM8 so far and bought Premium Edition to play early.

Gran Turismo has always been very polished on release with top tier presentation. It's the Apple of racing games.
There have been valid critiques regarding content and microtransactions but everything that's there works without issues.

New Forza Motorsport is a mess in 1) presentation 2) technical implementation and 3) content
Also non-existent communication from the development team regarding the big issues.

 

[Pagusas]

I don’t think either are really that relevant anymore, but if you mean why is GT’s name more valuable in mindshare, it’s because Forza has deluded its brand with too many games to quickly, and comes off less serious and more gamey.

GT has always did a good job of maintaining a very tight high quality brand image. Good marketing, good PR and good consistent leadership.

Forza has been all over the place, and comes off as cheaper thanks to inconsistent marketing, pr and brand representation.

 

[onQ123]

OP makes claims but provides nothing to back them up.

Forza Motorsport is doing really bad at retail right now . Almost like it didn't release in the last week or so it's going to be bad

 

[Zathalus]

I'd say simcade racers are not nearly as popular as they used to be. All the hardcore sim racers have moved onto iRacing or Assetto while those in for the casual racing most likely play Forza Horizon or other arcade titles.

GT7 is a great GT game, but the market for its type of game has shrunk.

 

[diffusionx]

Forza 3 and 4 were incredible, while GT5 had major issues. But T10 fumbled after that. I bought Forza 6, it was ok, had a lot of content, looked great, but was not the game 3/4 were. I didn't bother with 7.

New Forza Motorsport is a mess in 1) presentation 2) technical implementation and 3) content
Also non-existent communication from the development team regarding the big issues.

I really find it hard to believe that T10 spent 6 years on this game and this is the end product. They had to have been working on other games and helping other studios.

 

[BbMajor7th]

Could just be brand devaluation through over-exposure. Since 2012 we've had three mainline GT games, but we've had nine Forza branded games (10 if you include Forza Street). Happens to a lot of media franchises these days.

 

[onQ123]

Yep. A joke thread but will remain open.

You will see that it's not a joke when the sales data comes in

 

[Chukhopops]

But today it seems like GT continues to be a strong seller

Not really? It didn’t even make top 10 in 2022 in the US, and made #10 in EU despite being cross-gen.

It’s clear the racing sim genre has become more niche in general. FM has been taken over by FH, which is way more popular.

 

[Unknown?]

Defense force is huge here! It's okay, people will play it on gamepass.

 

[Majima Everywhere System]

Gran Turismo A-spec was a pack in game with THE PS2, the greatest console released to a generational cohort that had to have it.

Any GT release taps into pure nostalgia. Every Forza release doesn’t conjure much, though Forza 2 was my game.

 

[The Fartist]

It's that sweet-sweet GT Jazz music.

 

[adamsapple]

 

[Mowcno]

Maybe Forza Horizon is having a detrimental effect on Forza Motorsport but that would be difficult to prove. Regardless it seems that the latest Forza Motorsport despite having the longest development time of a Forza title has seriously underperformed on Steam. If we ever get a Gran Turismo 7 release on Steam that would be interesting to see. Especially as GT7 would be years old and not a simultaneous release so if even with that big disadvantage it still managed to outperform Forza Motorsport that would really show it's a stronger series.

 

[skit_data]

I can't really judge which one is more relevant in general but for me personally GT was more or less a no starter last gen (due to Sport having almost no tuning/career progression) and everyone I knew preferred the Forza games.
From my point of view it seems that in the last 10 or so years GT had a pretty harcore community with tournament events etc whereas FM had more recognition amongst people in general.

Now it seems to me they are much more similar both in terms of gameplay but also in terms of overall popularity but none of them really were the go to sim racer anymore. Now there are so also so many other competent sim racers around that you have fans spread out all over with their own distinct community.

These are just my personal observations so I might be dead wrong

 

[Gamer_By_Proxy]

Passion. One was meticulous in rebuilding each car model, the other well . . .
GT7 shows love and care all over. Also has a VR mode, which is how all racing sims should be played these days imo.

 

[HeWhoWalks]

Not really? It didn’t even make top 10 in 2022 in the US, and made #10 in EU despite being cross-gen.

It’s clear the racing sim genre has become more niche in general. FM has been taken over by FH, which is way more popular.

Gran Turismo is a leg series. According to the last recorded data of 2022, it had hit 5.5m. Surely it's much higher than that by now. So yes, it continues to be a strong seller, even if it doesn't quite hit the highs of GT5. If it can catch GT Sport's 8 million, it's done fine.

 

[Hudo]

Huh? Is Forza really struggling?

 

[FalsettoVibe]

I would not say Forza is irrelevant. GT has just been around much longer and has built a bigger fanbase.

 

[truth411]

I wanna hear your opinions.
Now, even during it's best years during Xbox 360 days Forza never actually overtook GT sales wise, peaking at estimated 5-6 million copies for Forza 3, but at least critically it was better acclaimed during that period and had a sizeable fanbase of it's own. But today it seems like GT continues to be a strong seller and manages to keep it's respectful position in the racing market, but the latest Forza already shows signs of limited appeal and sales even though it's on gamepass and includes console and PC.
Is it simply the effect of Playstation's general sales dominance, the growing popularity of Forza Horizon or the simracing space being a bit too crowded?

Because Forza is a Game that tries to be a Simulator, Gran Turismo is a Simulator that tries to be a Game. Depending on who you are is what your going to favor.

Ex: historically Forza Pops colors, abit wider tracks than real life, Rewind mode (makes no sense for a Simulator), less detailed Car Models etc...

 

[Killer8]

Gran Turismo feels like a luxury product that in many ways transcends just being a game. It's a pure celebration of everything automotive that even has car nuts who aren't typically gamers creaming themselves over it. The care and dedication that goes into all facets of the game is absolutely unrivaled, and it's not just because the car detail is the best in the industry - it's everything else, like the history lessons the game gives:




The unique manufacturer partnerships in Vision GT:

Vision Gran Turismo

The Vision Gran Turismo project started with a single question from Gran Turismo founder Kazunori Yamauchi: “Would you d...

www.gran-turismo.com

The autistically detailed photo mode:



Even the menu design with the smooth jazz music creates the impression of something expensive:




Forza, and other racing games - hell, let us expand that to just other games in general - are good but come nowhere close to replicating the sophistication of GT. A release of a GT is an event like nothing else in gaming.

And that's just describing the 'feels' of the game. It is no slouch in terms of the technical details either like visuals, car and track selection, and best-in-class VR support.

 

[Mowcno]

Huh? Is Forza really struggling?

The only real info we have is steam player numbers, MS haven't released any PR at all which probably says everything. If it had been a big success we would have been told how many players have played, "biggest forza launch ever" etc etc.
I posted this info in another thread which puts how bad the Steam numbers are into context.

Looking at the peak player of every game published on Steam by Xbox Game Studios in the past 5 years:

Halo Infinite - 272,586 (F2P)
Halo MCC - 161,024
Forza Horizon 5 - 81,096
Age of Empire IV - 73,928
Sea of Thieves - 66,906 (Late Steam Launch)
Flight Simulator - 61,829
Forza Horizon 4 - 40,399 (Late Steam Launch)
Age of Empires II Definitive - 38,725
Ori and the Will of the Wisps - 34,807
Grounded - 32,012
State of Decay 2 - 22,728
Age of Empires III Definitive - 20,146
Gears 5 - 10,196
Gears Tactics - 7,351
Psychonauts 2 - 7,262
Hi-Fi Rush - 6,132
Minecraft Legends - 5,322
Forza Motorsport - 4,703
Minecraft Dungeons - 2,939 (Late Steam Launch)
Tell Me Why - 2,784
Age of Empires Definitive Edition - 2,708 (Late Steam Launch)
Sunset Overdrive - 2,326 (Late Steam Launch)
Pentiment - 1,250
Battle Toads - 768
Killer Instinct - 701 (Late Steam Launch)
As Dusk Falls - 300


Ignoring the games that were not simultaneous releases on Steam the only games that did worse than Forza Motorsport are As Dusk Falls, Battle Toads, Pentiment and Tell Me Why.

I've got 12 hours played so far. I feel it's a decent racing game but not a $70 title, so I'm glad I didn't pay for it. I don't think there's enough there to justify the price-tag and there are bugs.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

GT is the real driving simulator.

tasteful and fancy presentation...a love letter to car culture

 

[Billbofet]

Another shitting on MS release thread....zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[Hudo]

The only real info we have is steam player numbers, MS haven't released any PR at all which probably says everything. If it had been a big success we would have been told how many players have played, "biggest forza launch ever" etc etc.
I posted this info in another thread which puts how bad the Steam numbers are into context.

Looking at the peak player of every game published on Steam by Xbox Game Studios in the past 5 years:

Halo Infinite - 272,586 (F2P)
Halo MCC - 161,024
Forza Horizon 5 - 81,096
Age of Empire IV - 73,928
Sea of Thieves - 66,906 (Late Steam Launch)
Flight Simulator - 61,829
Forza Horizon 4 - 40,399
Age of Empires II Definitive - 38,725
Ori and the Will of the Wisps - 34,807
Grounded - 32,012
State of Decay 2 - 22,728
Age of Empires III Definitive - 20,146
Gears 5 - 10,196
Gears Tactics - 7,351
Psychonauts 2 - 7,262
Hi-Fi Rush - 6,132
Minecraft Legends - 5,322
Forza Motorsport - 4,703
Minecraft Dungeons - 2,939 (Late Steam Launch)
Tell Me Why - 2,784
Age of Empires Definitive Edition - 2,708 (Late Steam Launch)
Sunset Overdrive - 2,326 (Late Steam Launch)
Pentiment - 1,250
Battle Toads - 768
Killer Instinct - 701 (Late Steam Launch)
As Dusk Falls - 300


Ignoring the games that were not simultaneous releases on Steam the only games that did worse than Forza Motorsport are As Dusk Falls, Battle Toads, Pentiment and Tell Me Why.

I've got 12 hours played so far. I feel it's a decent racing game but not a $70 title, so I'm glad I didn't pay for it. I don't think there's enough there to justify the price-tag and there are bugs.

Oh well, at least the Forza Horizon games seem to be doing well (and I also think the Horizon games caused the Need for Speed IP to vanish into obscurity; EA clearly don't know what to do with Need for Speed anymore)

 

[Freelance Yakuza]

I know that for some people, this might be hard to imagine, but it's possible for individuals to buy Gran Turismo because they like what the game offers.

I've only played GT 6, so I'll talk about the things I enjoyed during my 20 hours of gameplay:I found the menus cool, really liked the jazz music, the minigames and the licenses mode, which taught both how to drive and how cars functioned. The career mode was also quite nice: you'd start with a simple car and gradually improve it. I enjoy seeing progression. I often wonder, "What would it be like to drive my neighbor's car at 150 km/h?" and tried that.

In fact, it was something I missed when I played Project Cars 2. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I saw, you only drive high-performance race cars, which is great and well-executed, but not exactly what I was looking for.

 

[Heisenberg007]

Nothing but "feelings" displayed as facts here. There's absolutely NOTHING that suggests what the OP stated. Wild....

Facts.

 

[AeonGaidenRaiden]

People can say bad things about current GT comparing it to older ones but you can tell the team behind it really have passion for these type of games, or Kaz the main guy. Its sometimes over the top but comparing to Forza which just feel like another racer with events. Actually Horizon games to me are now much better then the main Forza and yes I have both PS5 and XsX so im not fanboying here but GT always seemed like a more passion project even though now more people maybe play Asseto Corsa or iRacing for the even more realistic sim experience.

 

[HeWhoWalks]

Another shitting on MS release thread....zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Outside of a funny Phil Spencer gif, who is "shitting" on Microsoft in here?

 

[owandeseis]

rofl

 

[Elysium44]

The only real info we have is steam player numbers, MS haven't released any PR at all which probably says everything. If it had been a big success we would have been told how many players have played, "biggest forza launch ever" etc etc.
I posted this info in another thread which puts how bad the Steam numbers are into context.

Looking at the peak player of every game published on Steam by Xbox Game Studios in the past 5 years:

Halo Infinite - 272,586 (F2P)
Halo MCC - 161,024
Forza Horizon 5 - 81,096
Age of Empire IV - 73,928
Sea of Thieves - 66,906 (Late Steam Launch)
Flight Simulator - 61,829
Forza Horizon 4 - 40,399
Age of Empires II Definitive - 38,725
Ori and the Will of the Wisps - 34,807
Grounded - 32,012
State of Decay 2 - 22,728
Age of Empires III Definitive - 20,146
Gears 5 - 10,196
Gears Tactics - 7,351
Psychonauts 2 - 7,262
Hi-Fi Rush - 6,132
Minecraft Legends - 5,322
Forza Motorsport - 4,703
Minecraft Dungeons - 2,939 (Late Steam Launch)
Tell Me Why - 2,784
Age of Empires Definitive Edition - 2,708 (Late Steam Launch)
Sunset Overdrive - 2,326 (Late Steam Launch)
Pentiment - 1,250
Battle Toads - 768
Killer Instinct - 701 (Late Steam Launch)
As Dusk Falls - 300


Ignoring the games that were not simultaneous releases on Steam the only games that did worse than Forza Motorsport are As Dusk Falls, Battle Toads, Pentiment and Tell Me Why.

I've got 12 hours played so far. I feel it's a decent racing game but not a $70 title, so I'm glad I didn't pay for it. I don't think there's enough there to justify the price-tag and there are bugs.

Forza Horizon 4 was also a late Steam launch btw.

 

[R6Rider]

Because the GT games feel like that have passion behind them.

 

[poppabk]

We really don't know that Forza is struggling. Has any racing sim launched well on PC? Assetto Corsa struggled for years until the price dropped and the mods came. Now it's a perennial title, it's a platform that can be modded to add tracks, cars, modes, graphical improvements etc. Forza Horizon fills that gap of people who just want to drive bad-ass cars like a madman. Motorsport is a readily accessible Sim, but how big is the market for that?

 

[Gavon West]

Facts.

GT has been in the game much longer, no? The latest came out how long ago? And this post suggests the 7th ITERATION of GT has HELPED PUSH the TOTAL NUMBER of GT sold to 90 MILLION TOTAL SALES.

Critically, Forza has wiped the floor with GT for a couple of generations now. And the franchise JUST released a new game a couple of weeks ago? Perhaps you're being a bit over zealous. Its nowhere near done selling and will only get better as more content and patches release. GT7 went through growing pains as well....

Stop the cap, bro.

If you're a GT fan, thats absolutely fine. But not everyone shares the same sentiment.

 

[skyfinch]

The thing with Gran Turismo is that it's too good. Taz even made the gashole of the car all shiny and RaymondTraced.

 

[Flutta]

Not really? It didn’t even make top 10 in 2022 in the US, and made #10 in EU despite being cross-gen.

It’s clear the racing sim genre has become more niche in general. FM has been taken over by FH, which is way more popular.

Thus this thread is about GT and Forza. Two sims, the other one is an arcade racer. Stop trying to muddy the waters.

GT is more popular than Forza that just a simple fact no need to cry about it.

 

[Thirty7ven]

GT has been in the game much longer, no? The latest came out how long ago?

Professional goal post mover right here. Now number of entries don’t matter, it’s how long it has been in the game…

So fucking funny.

 

[Pelta88]

Forza is an incredible series and franchise. It's downfall is being shoehorned into anaemic hardware that struggles to compete against last gen hardware.

In short, horrendous management.

 

[omegasc]

There's a lot more to GT than the games. After Sport and Academy it got a lot more mainstream attention, but if you look at GT's history, there are special editions for car manufacturers, car events, race team sponsorships, etc. It's a recognized brand in the motorsport community. It also helped lots of people discover their passion for cars in these 25+years, so it sticks with them. Not sure I'm making sense, but GT is also a lot about the cars and not the game or racing per se, and maybe that's what Forza lacks?

 

[Heisenberg007]

Professional goal post mover right here. Now number of entries don’t matter, it’s how long it has been in the game…

So fucking funny.

Right? Gavon West be like:

"Give me facts!!"

Gives facts.

"Well, not these ones."