Bernd Lauert
Banned
Eh. I'm waiting for Ratchet & Clank to see the really good stuff.
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[VGTECH] Crash 4 PS5 / XSX / XSS
- Thread starter ErRor88
- Start date
Bernd Lauert
Banned
I know you have to defend him because he's on your team, but I already linked you the receipts. They even have the same writing style. Almost nobody uses a space before using a colon (since it's wrong).
Mr_Potato
Banned
Yes that's dumb. Mods apparently have all the tools to check and ban duplicate accounts anyway.
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dcmk7
Banned
So that qualifies as a 'fact'? A proven fact.. ok.
You clearly don't know what the word means
.
Elog
Member
Another way to frame it is that for each polygon the GPU needs to fetch data (basic polygon data, texture data etc). As the polygon count increases (i.e. increased geometry complexity) the speed by which data can be moved to and from cache memory starts to dominate as the FPS limiting step and unless the I/O is up to snuff the average utilization of your CUs go down dramatically.Very good post.Isn't RX 6800 a 3 Shader Engine/10 CUs per shader array design? In that case i would expect XSX to scale even worse with its 2 SE/12-14 CUs per SA setup compared to PS5.
That is also the answer to why I/O starts to dominate in complex environments while low poly count frames are dominated by theoretical peak CU capacity i.e. TFLOPs. A good example of this is Hitman 3 which on average uses a rather small amount of polygons per frame compared to many other current games - theoretical peak TFLOPs dominate the FPS graph. For a title that still to this day have quite high polygon count as HZ: D you get much less from your high end-cards since I/O starts to take over as the rate limiting step and there the cards differ on average less.
Hitman 3 - 1440p Ultra settings 99% FPS
GTX 2060 64 FPS -> adding 125% TFLOPs to a 2080Ti -> 113 FPS or an FPS increase of 77%
HZD - 1440p Ultra setting 99% FPS
GTX 2060 48 FPS - > adding 125% TFLOPs to a 2080Ti -> 73 FPS or an FPS increase of 52%
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because the console have a 0.25% advantage and is objectively nothing as relevant as it would be a misery 3%. Imagine that for many the theoretical 20% that the xsx should have had since launch it was already nothing relevant. Think if something is ..being well below 1%A "nothing" difference between XSX and PS5 is a significant win for PS5. I mean.....XSX was supposed to wipe the floor with PS5. That's all that was said leading up to launch. Even in this thread you are maintaining XSX should have "double digit" advantage.....and yet it doesn't?
Tell me again, how is that "nothing"?
With consoles that cost the same I don't see what's so victorious to brag.. but maybe I'm weird. However if you think that the performances of the two consoles are reflected by this thu games cross gen good luck. Maybe you should read more about what that remedy developer said or what playstation close Quantic Dream dev said ..maybe
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Mr_Potato
Banned
In France it's mandatory, there's always a space before and after a colon, it's not wrong at all. It's auto corrected anyway, and I highly doubt I'm the only one from Europe who is auto corrected the same way.
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StateofMajora
Banned
That's cool but I gotta own my games
Bernd Lauert
Banned
Interesting factoid. Also interesting coincidence, you and Krisprolls are both from France
Mr_Potato
Banned
Interesting factoid. Also interesting coincidence, you and Krisprolls are both from France
Maybe he's French too yes. Like dozens or maybe hundreds of users here, Sherlock...
I think there are other countries where there's a space before and after a colon anyway...
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DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
Hopefully in the next 6 months the development will be so used to both platforms that they are close to identical.
Mr_Potato
Banned
They're already extremely close and it will probably stay the same when running multiplatform games. Which is a win for everybody.
Exclusives should be the differentiator again. PS5 developers focusing on PS5 and not having to make a dumbed down Series S version of their games should allow for much more impressive games.
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DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
I can't wait to see true next gen games from Sony. I hope God of War isn't cross gen.
Tbh I can't wait to see what playground does with the series s and x too. I think a new forza horizon and fable could look stunning.
Mr_Potato
Banned
For sure. Exciting times ahead on both platforms !
I hope Ragnarok will be PS5 exclusive too. That's not nice for PS4 only owners, but I'd like to see the most impressive game they can do on PS5... It should look incredible.
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J_Gamer.exe
Member
Why do xbox fans do this to lessen the blow when their console loses. The average will always appear closer when its limited to 60fps over the full analysis.
This was like for like analysis and at times the ps5 had and 12 fps lead, in cutscenes but it's a benchmark, remember..
That was 53fps on PS5 and 41 fps on SX. That's 29% more frames in a like for like scene.
Also as shown in gameplay the ps5 at times can have a 6fps advantage minimum, as its at 60fps still it must be higher, so the actual difference is wider.
Its 60fps PS5 vs 54fps SX. Thats 11% minimum as we dont know how much higher ps5 was there but the fact it didn't drop suggests higher, could have been a fair bit higher.
Of course these fluctuate but at times ps5 is faster to significantly faster than the series x.
if you look better there's the % count of frames at 16ms the difference is well less than 0.50% between the two consoleWhy do xbox fans do this to lessen the blow when their console loses. The average will always appear closer when its limited to 60fps over the full analysis.
This was like for like analysis and at times the ps5 had and 12 fps lead, in cutscenes but it's a benchmark, remember..
That was 53fps on PS5 and 41 fps on SX. That's 29% more frames in a like for like scene.
Also as shown in gameplay the ps5 at times can have a 6fps advantage minimum, as its at 60fps still it must be higher, so the actual difference is wider.
Its 60fps PS5 vs 54fps SX. Thats 11% minimum as we dont know how much higher ps5 was there but the fact it didn't drop suggests higher, could have been a fair bit higher.
Of course these fluctuate but at times ps5 is faster to significantly faster than the series x.
Neo Blaster
Member
What's most funny about your post is that you think PS tools are static and cannot improve.As that Remedy dev said himself, its the tools baby.
PS5
Series X current
Series X future
J_Gamer.exe
Member
Those averages are never going to show you the biggest differences given its an average. You will always get that when its a large amount of frames analysed and its mostly 60 fps. It doesn't tell us about the drops.
Look at the pictures, im on about what was shown when it drops in like for like scenes. Clear as day advantages for PS5.
In those and other examples PS5 lead is as stated and is significantly ahead of the series X.
According to some this should never have been possible, it should be flipped and even more in favour of the worlds most powerful console. But yet we keep seeing this and seeing the series x struggle.
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it's not the average probable that is one of the few only moment when it happen lol
Frame Time Counts
16.67ms
29250 (99.09%) ps5
28946 (98.57%) xsx
28038 (96.98%). xss
Topher
Gold Member
That is my point. We are already seeing that it isn't wise to make sweeping generalizations about this stuff because it isn't playing out the way it was foretold. Now it is because of cross gen or it is tools or "lazy ports". If you want to talk what is embarrassing then maybe start there?
Xbox and PS5 have both had minor victories at times so it is a bit difficult to take your finger wagging at "bragging" seriously when it is so selective.
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J_Gamer.exe
Member
Look, if you want to hold on to those average percentages because it paints a closer picture to feel better thats fine, but we can all see the video and screenshots. Its clear as day.
I'm talking about in those areas where it's like for like that he showed in the video.
When it drops in those cutscenes, which is a perfect benchmark, the PS5 is ahead to significantly ahead at times.
In gameplay when series x drops its upto 6fps ahead on PS5, as I showed, this is not arguable, its right there. Plus the ps5 is at 60 fps and would have been higher but we can't see it.
Why is the series x dropping in matched workloads so much?
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Jaysen
Banned
Why was the framerate of Immortals so god awful on PS5 and not on XSX? Why do games load faster on XSX when it has the slower SSD? Same reason - developer issues. I have no issues with any of the XSX games from MS nor the PS5 games from Sony. Their devs are more in touch with the hardware and tools.
J_Gamer.exe
Member
Wait i remember ps5 being better on vg tech video, so not sure what you on about there.
Bc games have at times loaded faster on series x as the game wasn't coded for the new io system and probably relies on the cpu and also at times we have had ps4 pro modes.
We've have seen first hand what ps5 games have done with games like spiderman loading an open world in a second once properly coded for.
We've also seen games almost half the file size.
MasterCornholio
Member
Best thing to do is just point him out to someone like
Mod of War
if you think hes ban dodging. I don't think mods see everything here because there's a ton of users on this site. But I'm sure they are doing their best with what they have.
I'm pretty surprised you haven't done this yet.
Jaysen
Banned
Immortals now runs fine on PS5 but they had to fix it. At launch it was awful. People blamed the PS5 hardware, just like they're stupidly doing now because a game as simple as Crash Bandicoot has issues. It all comes down to the developer.
MasterCornholio
Member
So can we blame the developers for what happened with Avengers and not the hardware?
Jaysen
Banned
The blame for that whole turd of a game falls on the developers and designers, yes.
Superayate
Member
I have an honest question but the resolution does fluctuate from 1800p CBR (seems to be the most common resolution) to 1440p CBR, what would be the result if removing the CBR and using native 1800p to 1440p ? I'm not sure it will be free to change that I suppose.
Physiognomonics
Member
Actually, no. 1440p is the worst case they found in some rare conditions when they were really looking at doing the most explosions and such. The usual resolution is >1800p according to their article.
It's 2160p DRS so it fluctuates from 2160p to 1440p with >1800p being the most common during combat.
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J_Gamer.exe
Member
A stuttering bug isn't the same as the framreate drops series x is showing.
Despite that bug ps5 actually still performed better than series x. Series x also had a lower res bound all the way down to 1080p.
So not sure that example you used is making your point.
Jaysen
Banned
Of course it's making my point. Neither issue is result of bad hardware. How is that so difficult to grasp? If there was an actual problem with the XSX hardware, the framerate issue wouldn't just occur in a couple of the levels. It would happen everywhere.
Lysandros
Member
The nature of their engine can very well favor some of PS5 GPU's higher metrics slightly but beside that it seems to me that whenever a camera zoom is involved in games (like in the cutscene in this one, sniper view in hitman 3 etc.) PS5 takes a significant lead. This makes me think of culling performance. PS5 is around 20% faster at fixed function culling (if this game uses it) but maybe there other factors impacting culling performance in XSX. Anyway, that's just my early impression/speculation.
Demon2blades
Member
These comparisons can be fun but I think we've come to a point where we aren't even comparing games built %100 for next gen hardware and it's causing a lot of crap between the fanbases over such trivial differences be it in Xboxes favour it ps's it's always gonna be "lazy port" this or that amongst things like time/money constraints etc , we should be waiting and comparing only next gen games but I guess waiting for them doesn't sell or give sites clicks , there's so much more to these boxes we need next gen engines to run on next gen hardware only then can we get the real comparisons we've been waiting for with no bullshit .
alabtrosMyster
Banned
He just meant that the dev kit cost more, people read way too much into these things.
J_Gamer.exe
Member
No it would have made your point if your example was worse on framerate and had worse drops in like for like like scenes.
A bug is a bug, all of the xbox problems to do with framerate people often pass off as bugs.
I'm not saying hardware is bad, both have strengths and weaknesses in different ways.
But we've seen it far too much and across far too many games and engines. The series x is at times struggling to match ps5 in some situations lots wouldn't have expected based on specs before they launched.
Its on the heavier scenes where it drops, you can see this in cutscenes where ps5 drops too, but nowhere near as much.
Thats no bug its a clear performance benchmark in those particular like for like scenes, based on how the games currently running.
Superayate
Member
But if you remove CBR, you will double the number of pixel "calculated" no ?
Jaysen
Banned
Which games that are built only for XSX and PS5 are struggling on XSX? You give the benefit of the doubt on game loads to the fact that none of these games being compared are native titles, so why do you dismiss that when it comes to this?
alabtrosMyster
Banned
You guys are arguing about different things (and I suspect at least one of you would change camp if the situation was reverse).
Does it mean the PS5 performs better in these situations? YES, and we don't know by how much (it could run the game at 240hz for all we know).
Are the games close enough that it probably doesn't matter much which version you get? sure, but this is a subjective argument (and it seems reasonable to me)... What's the number of frames that the xbox would have to drop for one to say it has a definite impact on the experience? We have the same issue with resolutions, it's even worse when you have games that emphasize resolution on one platform and frame rate/time on the other, people don't know where to throw themselves.
Physiognomonics
Member
I don't follow you here. But either way CBR has a cost for the system. It costs ressources (memory) and GPU time. From what we could see on a few games CBR might not be the best way to spend your ressources on PS5. Seems to me temporal injection (Spiderman) would be much better. But whatever.
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Lysandros
Member
Yeah, CBR is definitely not 'free', it requires some processing.
Superayate
Member
I'm asking because I far as I know, when we speak about 2160p CBR or 1800p CBR, the native resolution used is 1920*2160 and 1600*1800, no?
So if you remove the CBR and you use full native resolution such as 3840*2160 or 3200*1800, you'll double the pixel number no?
So what would be the impact? Donc you think it will be really free? I'm not sure about that if I'm right (and I could be wrong, I never really take a look at how CBR work).
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J_Gamer.exe
Member
There are none specifically built for them yet that have cut last gen off are there? So a pointless question really. But there have been many decent cross gen ones heavily tweaked for next gen and often having issues even minor you wouldn't expect on SX
Both are not showing us what they can do fully yet.
But look at the examples so far across all the games, what are the common themes for SX, dropping frames in areas ps5 doesn't at times. Some io issues seemingly when traversing. This is not in one game, we've seen it a lot.
We've heard of the breakthroughs Sony made with its io system and the whole system is designed for efficiency and speed. Weve already seen from that ohotomode benchmark there's nothing wrong with the series x gpu at times, so tools excuse should be rules out.
But when it switched to gameplay its lead it had displayed in pohotomode was wiped out. So something somewhere was slowing it down and wasn't as efficient as on ps5.
We need actual next gen games to get a better picture, but the data we have so from from all the comparisons is enough to give a fair picture.
Which shows us exactly what we were told by dev leaks early on that some failed to believe, both are the closest consoles ever with strengths and weaknesses in different areas and it will vary per game, engine, lead platform etc.
But based on all the comparisons so far I believe ps5 has been more consistent in framerate when running the same res and settings more often, with 'unexpected' drops on sx at times.
Jaysen
Banned
Of course it isn't pointless. It's the only point that actually matters right now.
J_Gamer.exe
Member
Tbh if in a comparison ps5 has the worst drops i want to see them and know the % difference to xbox just as much. As its only fair to analyse all the data.
But your right in reality most people won't notice any difference at all between these consoles. But just like in f1 at times fractions of a second are the difference between winning and losing, in these comparisons we look for large to minute differences.
Its just each time PS5 wins its very funny given the year of hell people had with the xbox power marketing turning out to be well overplayed.
Its going to be a great gen as it will be back and forth, no clear winner, in reality everyone is a winner as they are so close, but on these threads and online its funny as it will swing.
J_Gamer.exe
Member
No because we can only analyse the comparisons we have.
We've had so many different engines, dev teams etc to get a fair picture.
There's way more to come of course, but so far they have been close, trading blows, a few wins for SX, mostly bc ones with limited options on ps5. More wins for ps5 with better framerates etc.
If a few dedicated next gen games come out and show the same results then it will be, nah wait they haven't had enough time to learn to use vrs or sfs etc.
Why not say it as it is. So far series x has failed to deliver based on expectations.
In a graphics card comparison the more powerful card is usually ahead always. This is what people expected but due to the way Sony made the ps5 with gains in areas people didn't account for, we are seeing the results we have so far.
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
the reality of it, in terms of THIS game is that I believe the resolution is the same on both versions that the PS5 holds a locked FPS and is higher in cutscenes. It just runs better on PS5, that's it. I guess they are both running at the exact same resolution? the PS5 isn't less or anything?
So there we have it, the evidence speaks for itself. If they are the same resolution and the PS5 is running better it's a win for the PS5 on this game.
Who ported this game? is it inhouse?
So there we have it, the evidence speaks for itself. If they are the same resolution and the PS5 is running better it's a win for the PS5 on this game.
Who ported this game? is it inhouse?
alabtrosMyster
Banned
Exactly, unless someone is out for "blood".
Like, I'm genuinely interested in these things, ever since the 16-bit wars.... but this time around this is so close that it's mostly technicalities, even someone like me who pays attention will barely notice.
MS has overplayed their power advantage, their marketing overplays everything :-/ and their fans fall for it every single time.
Bernd Lauert
Banned
I don't like to tattle. I should've written a PM to Krisprolls, in hindsight.Best thing to do is just point him out to someone like
I don't think mods see everything here because there's a ton of users on this site. But I'm sure they are doing their best with what they have.
I'm pretty surprised you haven't done this yet.
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J_Gamer.exe
Member
These threads are funny though, which ever way it goes.
But given that overplayed hand by microsoft and their hardcore following, it makes it funnier when an advantage doesn't materialise.
Its led to some celebrating complete bc games that run better due to xbox one x and ps4 pro versions and xbox having more options without dev patch like ps5 can need. People have made out this was sx showing its power gap, mainly in desperation after being fooled by the power narrative and now wanting to backtrack.
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DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
to be fair, we're like 4 months into the generation and we know xbox is behind with their tools. I know there's jokes about tools and people say "how long do we have to wait?" - I would say its going to take more than 4 months in a covid world lol. Tools have come up too many times from devs for it not to be true and on top of the tools issue we have Covid. I wouldnt be counting chickens just yet. I just think games are going to swing on some vs the other and its going to be fun to see how it pans out.