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[MiyazakiHatesKojima]

You really deserve that tag, OP.

 

[LazyParrot]

No one knows the final 360 numbers other than Microsoft.

Yeah. Why do you think that is? No company has ever held back sales numbers that made them look good. Like most companies, MS is more than happy to brag about the number of units sold when it makes them look good in comparison. That's why they started out releasing numbers for Xbox One, only to suddenly stop in 2015 after it became clear that Sony's lead had grown to such an extent that catching up had become impossible.

 

[meirl]

I guess, time will tell, but look what happened after the success of PS2. PS3 was a disaster at launch.

Now, PS4 was successful, using the same logic, PS5 must be a failure at launch.

But we will see next year. Time will tell.

 

[Panajev2001a]

I guess, time will tell, but look what happened after the success of PS2. PS3 was a disaster at launch.

Now, PS4 was successful, using the same logic, PS5 must be a failure at launch.

But we will see next year. Time will tell.

Did you forget about PS1 to PS2 there ? If that held true, not likely, PS6 would be a bit of a launch disaster that recovers in the end while PS5 would be dominating the competition so much the PS4 would feel ashamed for itself hehe.

 

[PocoJoe]

I guess, time will tell, but look what happened after the success of PS2. PS3 was a disaster at launch.

Now, PS4 was successful, using the same logic, PS5 must be a failure at launch.

But we will see next year. Time will tell.

Where did you find that logic, in your arse?

if anything, ps4 being so successful it only gives more chance to ps5 also to be successful, not the other way around.

And ps3 launch being what it were = it adds even more to the probability of ps5 launching successfully, because they have bad experience that gave them a lesson.

xbox = didnt sell so well
360 = sold ok, not really epicly
one = didnt sell so well
sex box = more likely to sell badly/average than really epicly

This logic I would understand, making bad/inferior product gen after gen could lead into another failure

 

[meirl]

Did you forget about PS1 to PS2 there ? If that held true, not likely, PS6 would be a bit of a launch disaster that recovers in the end while PS5 would be dominating the competition so much the PS4 would feel ashamed for itself hehe.

no, PSX doesnt really count, because it was their first console. we are just looking from PS2 --> PS3 and PS4 --> PS4. but again, this is all just speculating. We will see what happens and what not.

Sony has showed though that they dont like to listen to their user base. Just look at all their censorship crap, or at the crossplay disaster.. remember #BlameSony?

 

[meirl]

Where did you find that logic, in your arse?

if anything, ps4 being so successful it only gives more chance to ps5 also to be successful, not the other way around.

And ps3 launch being what it were = it adds even more to the probability of ps5 launching successfully, because they have bad experience that gave them a lesson.

xbox = didnt sell so well
360 = sold ok, not really epicly
one = didnt sell so well
sex box = more likely to sell badly/average than really epicly

This logic I would understand, making bad/inferior product gen after gen could lead into another failure

what, no? your logic doesnt make sense. just look at the Wii --> Wii U and then Wii U to Switch, same with PS. By your logic, Xbox Series X must be a huge success lol

but again, we will see. doesnt make sense to talk about it, we dont know what will happen

 

[MHubert]

We already had a consensus on here based on this link that it is indeed harmful and no one was able to dispute the source and even the mods had no choice but to acknowledge. Also, the Xbox has the same issue so this is not a Sony specific problem.

However that's a different thread. Please be sure to stay on topic in the future.

Sometimes i feel like I have been living in a cave - how come I have missed this genius level troll meme? And I thought you had me at 'Sunray Sony'...

As for your OP: What exactly about the ps3 is reminding you about what we currently know of ps5?
- Is it because you think they might not get those cheap 'Sunray Shots' that MS basically handed to them earlier this gen?

 

[10000]

no way it will follow the same path as ps3. The console battleground is the number of quality exclusive title that they could secure, in early years of ps3 they fails to introduce iconic and quality IP to their audiences until when mgs 4 and uncharted 2 released, that in 2006-2008 they have to face the new gears of war IP, halo 3 and some slew of xbox japanese timed exclusives with lackluster titles like lair, uncharted 1 and genji

if they stop deliver with their studios and japanese dev supports then the catastrophic failure could happen then

also ps3 is not a flop anyway

 

[DeepEnigma]

Freedom Gate Co. may be V Voost Kain , @Microsofts Hunert Smoke, and @Afro Republican based on their current behavior.

That is a better thread title.

 

[Panajev2001a]

no, PSX doesnt really count, because it was their first console. we are just looking from PS2 --> PS3 and PS4 --> PS4. but again, this is all just speculating. We will see what happens and what not.

Sony has showed though that they dont like to listen to their user base. Just look at all their censorship crap, or at the crossplay disaster.. remember #BlameSony?

So basically, are you saying PS1 to PS2 does not count because “reasons” / because it is the item in the data set that breaks the model ? At the end of the PS1 generation they would have a similar relationship between their console and the competition to What is occurring with Xbox One and PS4 now.

I think Sony listens to their user base as much as MS, they started from a much better position and there was less to improve while the other, thanks competition doing its job, had to work a lot harder as they had more ground to recover.

Cross play, which is now fully blessed (it never was by MS on the Xbox 360, they only warmed up to it this generation) was a vestige of the older warring amongst who is leading vs who is following (see Xbox 360 and cross play stance there... see how quickly they got, ahem, FF XIV on Xbox One... the one that uses its own network service PlayOnline) and censorship as a Sony specific issue is quite overblown and ignores deeper and more widespread issues in the west (see DMC V censored the same way on all platforms, see some nice interviews from the head of 343i Bonnie Ross or Nadella’s HR policies reform this year... the SJW bit is a bit more complicated than “point finger at Sony”).

 

[Clarissa]

No one knows the final 360 numbers other than Microsoft.

Also the PS3 being a disaster is not an opinion, but I also never brought it up, you did. Why are you acting like I said anything about the PS3 being a disaster jsut because I mentioned the fact we don't have final 360 numbers?

We'll probably get that at the Series X unveil.

My friend who is a Nintendo fanboy agrees with you. During the PS3 days, Sony had to sell buildings to stay afloat.

He predicts ps5 to flop so hard Kenichiro Yoshida and Kaz Hirai have to sell their underwear to afford something to eat to stay alive.

 

[New Yorks Finest]

This thread be like ...

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

So your saying the guineses world records is lying and MS just let them release information that is fales and let them profit of fales information.

We hadn't had the full sales of either for years, GR just went with the PS3 number because it was announced only recently before they added it. Microsoft never released the numbers. This is a fact, Guinness doesn't have the numbers, only Microsoft has the numbers. What you want to believe isn't relevant, the only thing that matters is what we have, and we don't have 360 numbers, we only have PS3 numbers. Also Wii numbers but that was known long ago.

As for the PS3 being a disaster, it was a disaster, that's not debatable. Opinion about whether you like their games or not won't change that, I like PS3 games, doesn't mean the PS3 wasn't a major failure that caused Sony to completely restructure the company and lose money across multiple divisions. Even now they are at best at the halfway point of getting those losses back, for the gaming division. The bleeding from the other divisions are not coming back, especially since some of those other divisions no longer exist like Laptops for example.

 

[Dory16]

Hmmm.. it always bugs me when Sony gets called out for being arrogant. The proof is in their games.

I don't get the hate. Maybe we played two different consoles this gen? I always wonder how some users utilize their PS console when they come in with so much hate. The worst thing I ran into this gen was not having enough space to hold games.

Count your blessings for not having game pass then. Not sure where you would be keeping all those free games.

 

[Vol5]

It's too early to really tell but I have a feeling Sony will be doing the bare minimum and therefore will caught off guard.

The bare minimum? Sony have lined up pretty much all their first parties for PS5. All they have to do is tease Horizon 2, GoW 2 or Spiderman and MS are in a world of hurt. Plus there's CoD and FIFA which will continue to be PS marketed.

When you say Sony have not committed to BC. I personally haven't read that so can't comment specifically, but the recent leak basically tells us that the APU speeds are throttled to emulate the PS4 / PS4 Pro exactly. I don't know how emulation would be anything less than perfect with hardware BC (assuming the leak is legit btw).

 

[Jayjayhd34]

We hadn't had the full sales of either for years, GR just went with the PS3 number because it was announced only recently before they added it. Microsoft never released the numbers. This is a fact, Guinness doesn't have the numbers, only Microsoft has the numbers. What you want to believe isn't relevant, the only thing that matters is what we have, and we don't have 360 numbers, we only have PS3 numbers. Also Wii numbers but that was known long ago.

As for the PS3 being a disaster, it was a disaster, that's not debatable. Opinion about whether you like their games or not won't change that, I like PS3 games, doesn't mean the PS3 wasn't a major failure that caused Sony to completely restructure the company and lose money across multiple divisions. Even now they are at best at the halfway point of getting those losses back, for the gaming division. The bleeding from the other divisions are not coming back, especially since some of those other divisions no longer exist like Laptops for example.

OK let's say for argument sake your right (even though we both know ps3 outsold 360), the ps3 is the 8th highest selling console of all time. It has what most are calling the game of the decade, not only that software sold very well and your calling that a failure.

 

[Clear]

We hadn't had the full sales of either for years, GR just went with the PS3 number because it was announced only recently before they added it. Microsoft never released the numbers. This is a fact, Guinness doesn't have the numbers, only Microsoft has the numbers. What you want to believe isn't relevant, the only thing that matters is what we have, and we don't have 360 numbers, we only have PS3 numbers. Also Wii numbers but that was known long ago.

As for the PS3 being a disaster, it was a disaster, that's not debatable. Opinion about whether you like their games or not won't change that, I like PS3 games, doesn't mean the PS3 wasn't a major failure that caused Sony to completely restructure the company and lose money across multiple divisions. Even now they are at best at the halfway point of getting those losses back, for the gaming division. The bleeding from the other divisions are not coming back, especially since some of those other divisions no longer exist like Laptops for example.

PS3 was a disaster, but, it wasn't actually a sales disaster at all. That's the important thing. Shipment figures don't lie. The business behind it was a mess, but as a product it still sold a lot of units despite fierce competition.

Also, as I've pointed out repeatedly PS2 carried on selling strongly into the following gen, 50m units strongly, despite the arrival of 360 and Wii. The typical "history" of the generations basically offloads this success onto the previous gen, which helps to make the 360's performance seem stronger than it actually was in terms of global marketshare over that period.

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

OK let's say for argument sake your right (even though we both know ps3 outsold 360),

Nether of us know this so I can't read the rest of your post past this point.

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

PS3 was a disaster, but, it wasn't actually a sales disaster at all.

Did you guys skip business 101 in 3rd grade?

The PS3 by definition was a sales disaster, it was supposed to sell MUCH more than it did for years, that's why Sony lost truckloads of money. The Number on paper doesn't matter. I can have a $50 product and expect it to sell 5 million copies. If I am forced to drop the price to $1 but sold 60 million copies that 60 million looks good, but it's not going to stop me from selling my assets while negotiating with bankruptcy court.

I don't think people understand since it's been several years later, how much damage the PS3 did to Sony and how the damage spread and helped permanently kill other divisions such as the Laptop division and others. They had to fire and hire a ton of new staff, restructure the company, completely change how they operated, the death of SCE and SCEA, and so much more. Nothing about the PS3 was good to anyone outside the gaming consumer end, and that's only after 2009.

To say the PS3 was a success from any objective perspective is just plain wrong. People keep downplaying how bad it hurt Sony and I find that unfortunate since it means they will never understand how Sony ended up in the favored position they are in now.

 

[DESTROYA]

To say the PS3 was a success from any objective perspective is just plain wrong. People keep downplaying how bad it hurt Sony and I find that unfortunate since it means they will never understand how Sony ended up in the favored position they are in now.

They are in a position now because they made a good console the PS4, what makes you think going forward things will change?
Corporation aren’t stupid, they recognize success and follow the same pattern .

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

They are in a position now because they made a good console the PS4.

They are in the position they are in because of the changes and restructuring due to the PS4, the console wasn't the only reason why the PS4 did so well.

This is what happens when crazed fanboys oversimplify real events that impacted thousands of people on the business end, and wonder why business interact with the public so seldomly when it comes to information.

 

[Vawn]

Is "another PS3" an insult? PS3 was a great console with a lot of great games. It's also the fifth best selling home console.

Edit: OP, stop posting. I just read some of your latest posts. They aren't even worth responding to directly. I'm embarrassed on your behalf, because you seem to be too clueless to even realize why you should be embarrassed.

 

[MoreJRPG]

All I know is the future is less stable with Jim "Think of the children" Ryan calling the shots over Shawn Layden.

 

[DESTROYA]

They are in the position they are in because of the changes and restructuring due to the PS4, the console wasn't the only reason why the PS4 did so well.

This is what happens when crazed fanboys oversimplify real events that impacted thousands of people on the business end, and wonder why business interact with the public so seldomly when it comes to information.

The money they brought in from sales of the PS4 and games was not part of there resurgence?

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

The money they brought in from sales of the PS4 and games was not part of there resurgence?

I never said it didn't, if you aren't able to comprehend all Sony went through to get to this point just say so instead of arguing without reason.

 

[mekes]

You presume a lot, OP

 

[Yoboman]

Arrogant MS are trying to buy up and consolidate independent industry talent with their considerable wealth and expecting us to buy a $500-$600 console on years of unfulfilled promises that first party would get better

See anybody can do this

 

[kretos]

Sony is doomed

 

[Jtibh]

We hadn't had the full sales of either for years, GR just went with the PS3 number because it was announced only recently before they added it. Microsoft never released the numbers. This is a fact, Guinness doesn't have the numbers, only Microsoft has the numbers. What you want to believe isn't relevant, the only thing that matters is what we have, and we don't have 360 numbers, we only have PS3 numbers. Also Wii numbers but that was known long ago.

As for the PS3 being a disaster, it was a disaster, that's not debatable. Opinion about whether you like their games or not won't change that, I like PS3 games, doesn't mean the PS3 wasn't a major failure that caused Sony to completely restructure the company and lose money across multiple divisions. Even now they are at best at the halfway point of getting those losses back, for the gaming division. The bleeding from the other divisions are not coming back, especially since some of those other divisions no longer exist like Laptops for example.

Who the hell is this guy?
Someone fill me in. All i know he makes bullshit threads and something about bluray cancer.

 

[DESTROYA]

I never said it didn't, if you aren't able to comprehend all Sony went through to get to this point just say so instead of arguing without reason.

Nobodies arguing just having a civil conversation......geez man chill!

 

[Jigsaah]

The PS4 started out strong against a poorly thought-out, but also misunderstood Xbox One reveal. Specifically the policies were a major concern and Sony took advantage of the platter Microsoft handed them. But then E3 came and we saw the first glimpse of what I like to call 'Sunray Sony" why do I call them that? The rays of the Sun can be beautiful but if they increase in intensity it can become blinding or cause health issues of the skin, fooling you to your death.

That's what the PS4 has been going through since E3, where Sony quickly introduced paid online as quickly as possible and tried to bury it, but the crowd was not fooled and the cheers they were giving before turned into stumbled silence.

We saw Sony deny cross-play and only open up to a few select titles, lack of effort into Backwards Compatibility so they can charge you high prices for PSNOW, raising the prices of PSN+ in several countries, censorship, egotistical interviews with developers, closing down of studios that don't meet their new inflated criteria, acting like it's a privilege for you to buy their console.

To top it all off we have confirmed rumors that report on the speculation that the PS5 will be releasing with weak specifications and assuming you will buy it because they think you don't have a choice. They are so far up their ass that they believe that you will buy the weaker console just because you should be honored to even have a console to buy in the first place.

This leads me to believe that Sunray Sony, or arrogant Sony for the masses, has returned and will need another slap in the face to get in line.

Wow, but OP...tell us how you really feel.

Sony is arrogant in a lot of ways, granted. They kinda deserve to in a way though. I mean they did right by their exclusives and when games is #1 and you're #1 in games...I mean a lil gloating is warranted.

These other things though, should not be overlooked...especially when its clear the competition is moving in the opposite, more consumer-friendly direction. I won't dogpile and list all the differences because some people can be quite sensitive to any perceived attack to their platform of choice, but safe to say that the fact that Microsoft could bounce back the way they did was expedited by the fact that there was a clear dichotomy in how Sony and Microsoft chose to do business from maybe mid-gen to present.

I don't disagree with you. Man...I'm just glad I gotta word in before this becomes another 10 page thread lmao.

 

[cookiemuffin]

Did you guys skip business 101 in 3rd grade?

The PS3 by definition was a sales disaster, it was supposed to sell MUCH more than it did for years, that's why Sony lost truckloads of money. The Number on paper doesn't matter. I can have a $50 product and expect it to sell 5 million copies. If I am forced to drop the price to $1 but sold 60 million copies that 60 million looks good, but it's not going to stop me from selling my assets while negotiating with bankruptcy court.

I don't think people understand since it's been several years later, how much damage the PS3 did to Sony and how the damage spread and helped permanently kill other divisions such as the Laptop division and others. They had to fire and hire a ton of new staff, restructure the company, completely change how they operated, the death of SCE and SCEA, and so much more. Nothing about the PS3 was good to anyone outside the gaming consumer end, and that's only after 2009.

To say the PS3 was a success from any objective perspective is just plain wrong. People keep downplaying how bad it hurt Sony and I find that unfortunate since it means they will never understand how Sony ended up in the favored position they are in now.

People only look at unit sold because it's the only thing they understand. They saw PS3 eventually outsold 360 and declared Sony as the winner of last gen lol.

 

[Vawn]

Who the hell is this guy?
Someone fill me in. All i know he makes bullshit threads and something about bluray cancer.

You pretty much covered it.

 

[Vawn]

People only look at unit sold because it's the only thing they understand. They saw PS3 eventually outsold 360 and declared Sony as the winner of last gen lol.

NFL fans only look at the score because it's the only thing they understand. They saw the Patriots eventually score more points than the Rams and declared the Patriots as the winner of the Super Bowl lol.

 

[Fox Mulder]

 

[its_justJEFF]

Can anyone blame them though? When someone is having the larger base and the best sales with no competition? I find it normal to be honest

It's funny cause everyone uses "Arrogant Sony" as a thing, as if they're the only ones that have suffered from being arrogant. Remember the Wii? Remember what came after it? Wii U, was that due to "arrogance" or confusion idk... Xbox One? was that due to "arrogance" or was that just misreading the market? arrogance or misreading, smells the same to me.

 

[Quixz]

I think some of us have forgotten gaming is just a hobby and huge multi billion dollar corps only care about making money!

 

[Mista]

It's funny cause everyone uses "Arrogant Sony" as a thing, as if they're the only ones that have suffered from being arrogant. Remember the Wii? Remember what came after it? Wii U, was that due to "arrogance" or confusion idk... Xbox One? was that due to "arrogance" or was that just misreading the market? arrogance or misreading, smells the same to me.

I’m not saying they ar but even if they were, I don’t blame them at all

 

[Clintizzle]

Y'all just not at the level of OP and I.

Holla back when you open your eyes.

 

[Mista]

I think some of us have forgotten gaming is just a hobby and huge multi billion dollar corps only care about making money!

That’s something that should be understood by all those absurd people that are so attached to plastic. People missed on great experiences just because of that rubbish mentality. I got extreme Xbox friends that would never touch anything Sony or Nintendo and I got the same with Nintendo and Sony

It’s really unfair to call yourself a “gamer” when you’re capable of owning different platforms to actually enjoy the different experiences each one has to offer but you decide not to. I don’t find anyone with that mentality actually enjoys the gaming world and that’s why I don’t interact with fanboys discussions because they aren’t the passionate gamers to me

 

[Fnord]

There is no "lack of effort into backward compatibility." At least not on the PS3 front. Neither the PS4 nor the PS4 Pro have the raw horsepower to emulate the PS3. Not even close. The PS3's architecture is simply too different.

 

[VCL]

what if ps5 launch date is 2021

 

[Daphnes Nohansen Hyrule]

Yeah it is all true but Sony won't repeat the same mistakes again.

over $400 is not happening again.

 

[Shizumapower]

 

[Barakov]

This is a case of maybe/maybe not. We'll know for sure once they actually do the actual reveal. Their attitude will be the big indicator. As of now, I'm in the not category right now. Granted they're in the full-on cruise mode right now but it seems like they're making sure the PS4 goes out with a bang in 2020.

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

There is no "lack of effort into backward compatibility." At least not on the PS3 front. Neither the PS4 nor the PS4 Pro have the raw horsepower to emulate the PS3. Not even close. The PS3's architecture is simply too different.

You can literally install a third-party PS3 emulator on a jailbroken PS4. first-party one would take less effort and less resources.

 

[Jayjayhd34]

Did you guys skip business 101 in 3rd grade?

The PS3 by definition was a sales disaster, it was supposed to sell MUCH more than it did for years, that's why Sony lost truckloads of money. The Number on paper doesn't matter. I can have a $50 product and expect it to sell 5 million copies. If I am forced to drop the price to $1 but sold 60 million copies that 60 million looks good, but it's not going to stop me from selling my assets while negotiating with bankruptcy court.

I don't think people understand since it's been several years later, how much damage the PS3 did to Sony and how the damage spread and helped permanently kill other divisions such as the Laptop division and others. They had to fire and hire a ton of new staff, restructure the company, completely change how they operated, the death of SCE and SCEA, and so much more. Nothing about the PS3 was good to anyone outside the gaming consumer end, and that's only after 2009.

To say the PS3 was a success from any objective perspective is just plain wrong. People keep downplaying how bad it hurt Sony and I find that unfortunate since it means they will never understand how Sony ended up in the favored position they are in now.

You can literally install a third-party PS3 emulator on a jailbroken PS4. first-party one would take less effort and less resources.

You know full well its unable to play any games so why bring it up.


You could just as easily install steam doesn't mean your booting up pc games.

 

[Clear]

Did you guys skip business 101 in 3rd grade?

The PS3 by definition was a sales disaster, it was supposed to sell MUCH more than it did for years, that's why Sony lost truckloads of money. The Number on paper doesn't matter. I can have a $50 product and expect it to sell 5 million copies. If I am forced to drop the price to $1 but sold 60 million copies that 60 million looks good, but it's not going to stop me from selling my assets while negotiating with bankruptcy court.

I don't think people understand since it's been several years later, how much damage the PS3 did to Sony and how the damage spread and helped permanently kill other divisions such as the Laptop division and others. They had to fire and hire a ton of new staff, restructure the company, completely change how they operated, the death of SCE and SCEA, and so much more. Nothing about the PS3 was good to anyone outside the gaming consumer end, and that's only after 2009.

To say the PS3 was a success from any objective perspective is just plain wrong. People keep downplaying how bad it hurt Sony and I find that unfortunate since it means they will never understand how Sony ended up in the favored position they are in now.

You are so clueless... damn.

They were taking a huge hit on each PS3 sold initially, had they sold more units in the first couple of years their losses would actually have been greater.
Their initial software offerings weren't great, and their online back-end immature,limiting their ability to claw back the defecit from selling the hardware at a heavy loss.

There were also a large number of factors outside Sony's control that stood against them, especially in the early years. The rise of smartphone gaming and the resultant decline in volume sales in Japan, the component shortages that inflated the BOM on the PS3 and delayed its release allowing MS to get to market with the 360 a year to 16 months sooner, the unexpected success of Wii also hit them hard, etc. On top of all that global economic conditions were really bad for Japanese business throughout, particularly consumer electronics brands like Sony who were pressed hard by South Korean rivals in all product categories.

Then there was the tidal wave of bad publicity that followed Sony generally throughout that entire period, stuff entirely unrelated to Playstation like the "Rootkit" scandal, or the numerous hacks and cyber-attacks in later years. All things that were costly to fix and created negative publicity.

Lastly, and this points is very significant to the Playstation side of things. For a very long time in the PS360 gen, Japanese games were out of fashion in the west. Pretty much every large Japanese publisher was struggling both with the technological transition and creating product with broad commercial appeal, many floundering with "me too" designs that appealed to noone. These being the backbone of the PS2's success, it hit Sony the hardest.

The bottom line: Despite this turmoil and cavalcade of factors standing against it, the PS3 still managed to catch up with 360 by the end of the generation in terms of units shipped. Any gap being hard to quantify given the way that original 360 models were so poorly engineered that MS had to sink billions into an extended warranty program so as to avoid a general recall. This proves demand, and the Playstation brand remained strong.

 

[HaveButOneLife]

What was "misunderstood" about the Xbox One reveal? It would have been the worst console of all time had they kept those policies, ya know, like the digital/Kinect only, always online DRM crap? Nothing good about that.

The PS5 will be like the PS4, not the PS3, come at me!

What does that have to do with a future system that hasn't released yet? People said the same thing with the PS2.

It's how the company is run that is important, not the output, because the former affects the latter.

Management is better nowadays.