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The one thing that is really really bothering me about Ratchet and Clank Rift Apart...

Mar 16, 2014
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Reflections have this weird streaky motion blur type effect on it. It almost looks like the old days of motion blur where they just ran multiple ghosted images on top of each other to fake it. I don't know if it has something to do with the checkerboard rendering of the RT reflections or if it's due to the noise reduction, but it also happens on screen space reflections as well. I checked Spider-Man and it's not nearly as bad as this. It gets distracting at points. There's a part in the game where Ratchet runs past a window and his reflection almost completely disappears while he's moving because of how bad it blurs, but looks fine when he stops. There's also a small delay in when the reflection starts to change when you move the camera and then there's a small delay when you stop the camera for the reflection to stop moving and settle down. It looks a lot like Control when it comes to RT in Rift Apart. It's slightly disappointing because everything else looks so clean! I just find it weird that screen space reflections do the same exact thing so just turning on performance mode isn't really a fix. Maybe they'll patch it at some point. Spider-Man got some post-launch patches that improved graphics/performance (like the machine learning muscle movements).

What are your thoughts? Does anyone have a video that shows what I'm talking about? It won't show in screenshots. I'm surprised nobody else is really talking about this.
 

Hunnybun

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Not noticed it specifically but in general I find RT reflections to be pretty unimpressive so far, at least as far as consoles can manage.

Yes, they're accurate - insofar as the BVH is accurate - but you'd never know the difference during gameplay. Ok, so you stop to look at them more closely - but the problem then becomes that looking at them closely reveals the simplified world that's reflected, generally at low res and sometimes at half the frame rate! You can even quite often see actual pixellation, something which I don't think I've seen in games since the PS2 days.

Sorry, but I just don't think this is a good use of the consoles' power. Maybe if they can get good RT GI working like in Metro then that'll be worth it, but I'm not convinced reflections will be worth the hassle.

I ended up using the regular performance mode in Ratchet, cos the extra pixels were much nicer than the RT.
 

vkbest

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I don't know if its your problem, but looks like this game have a problem showing blurred and other graphical issues on RT performance mode, when you have activated 120hz on PS5 settings on some TVs
 
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Kuranghi

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I think they said its because they can only produce RT reflections that are a lower res than the output resolution (4K in this case), so they use temporal accumulation, ie build it up over several frames using previous data, to increase the perceived resolution. Combined with the usual denoising required for RT it causes artifacts like this.

So its a combination of different things that gives this effect and yes I find it very distracting when I'm sightseeing, obviously not so much during constant motion because you don't stop and see the reflection "pop" and catch up to where it should actually be. The way the temporal upsampling works generally on most of the rest of the frame produces a similar ghosting effect, you can especially see it on transparent surfaces.

This is why I'm not a fan of adding more and more accumlation tricks to games these days, I'm fine with TAA or TAAU or DLSS but please don't combine them and then add accumlated RT reflections on top of that because it all starts to look like ghost-soup, ie what happened with Cyberpunk on PC.
 
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vkbest

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I think they said its because they can only produce RT reflections that are a lower res than the output resolution (4K in this case), so they use temporal accumulation, ie build it up over several frames using previous data, to increase the perceived resolution. Combined with the usual denoising required for RT it causes artifacts like this.

So its a combination of different things that gives this effect and yes I find it very distracting when I'm sightseeing, obviously not so much during constant motion because you don't stop and see the reflection "pop" and catch up to where it should actually be. The way the temporal upsampling works generally on most of the rest of the frame produces a similar ghosting effect, you can especially see it on transparent surfaces.

if you have a 120hz tv, test to turn off 120hz on PS5 settings.
 

Kuranghi

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if you have a 120hz tv, test to turn off 120hz on PS5 settings.

I don't think that matters as I'm running the game in Fidelity mode. I flipped between the 3 modes at the start and they showed the expected loss of resolution as I went from Fidelity, to Performance and then RT Perf.
 
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if you have a 120hz tv, test to turn off 120hz on PS5 settings.

This brings up a point i want to ask......i have a Bravia XBR950G which as far as i know does NOT support 4K at 120hz. The game looks great and im using fidelity mode, but seeing others posts here about how the game looks better after turning that 120hz setting off in the PS5 settings (mine is currently at auto), im wondering if i should try turning it off on mine too and see if the game looks even better.
 
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vkbest

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Kuranghi

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Nope, the game is degrading HDR on performance RT mode when you have 120hz activated, its a bug

What the heck are you talking about, you said 120hz mode might be causing "blurring and other performance issues" and now you are talking about HDR? Sorry I don't follow.
 

vkbest

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What the heck are you talking about, you said 120hz mode might be causing "blurring and other performance issues" and now you are talking about HDR? Sorry I don't follow.
From the link I posted before:

"If your TV supports 120hz, it looks like Rift Apart can automatically disable HDR to try and run at 120hz mode in 1080p - though the game may or may not actually run at 120 frames per second, depending on your particular setup"
"Fortunately for folks who are running into this issue, it's pretty easy to fix it on your end: just head into your PS5 settings menu and disable 120hz mode. This will keep Rift Apart running at 60 frames per second with HDR enabled and the intended visuals intact"

On 120hz the game is degrading HDR to 8bit and resolution to 1080p

I think there is a thread on Neogaf talking about this issue. EDITED: Its not, I read this on Reddit
 
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Kuranghi

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From the link I posted before:

"If your TV supports 120hz, it looks like Rift Apart can automatically disable HDR to try and run at 120hz mode in 1080p - though the game may or may not actually run at 120 frames per second, depending on your particular setup"
"Fortunately for folks who are running into this issue, it's pretty easy to fix it on your end: just head into your PS5 settings menu and disable 120hz mode. This will keep Rift Apart running at 60 frames per second with HDR enabled and the intended visuals intact"

I think there is a thread on Neogaf talking about this issue

Ok fair enough, but this thread is about ghosting/temporal accumulation on ray-traced reflections.

I said I'm running the game in Fidelity mode, not Performance or Performance RT mode, so the game is locked to 30fps afaik, the PS5's internal 120hz toggle shouldn't be considered in this mode.

I've no interest in the Performance RT mode, its quite blurry and makes the game completely lose its splendor for me.
 
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Croatoan

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Control is the best RT I have seen so far. Playing that on PC maxed with all the RT bells and whistles is AWESOME. Getting 60+ fps with DLSS 2.0 is nifty as well.
 
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vkbest

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Ok fair enough, but this thread is about ghosting/temporal accumulation on ray-traced reflections.

I said I'm running the game in Fidelity mode, not Performance or Performance RT mode, so the game is locked to 30fps afaik, the PS5's internal 120hz toggle shouldn't be considered in this mode.

If resolution drops to 1080p and below, instead 1080p-4k that supposed to be this mode you get blurred image and lower resolution on ray traced reflections
 
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The reflections use some kinf of temporal reconstruction (like a lot of RT effects in video games)... Now that you mention it, I was wondering about that, I think they should have kept the 1/4 resolution RT and use a more stable image.
 
Mar 16, 2014
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I could be wrong but isn't there some sort of motion blur setting in the graphics area? Try turning that off and see if you still notice it
It's not related to the motion blur of the game. It's specifically due to the denoising and reconstruction they're using to bring up the resolution of the reflections. It takes data from previous frames and builds it up until it's a clean image. It results in all the reflections having this trailing blur when you move the camera or character.
 

GymWolf

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When i saw that like spiderman, the reflections are still not 1:1 real but low details version of what they reflect i just disable them entirely to have better resolution and locked 60 frames in performance mode.
 

jeffyjaixx

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Ok fair enough, but this thread is about ghosting/temporal accumulation on ray-traced reflections.

I said I'm running the game in Fidelity mode, not Performance or Performance RT mode, so the game is locked to 30fps afaik, the PS5's internal 120hz toggle shouldn't be considered in this mode.

I've no interest in the Performance RT mode, its quite blurry and makes the game completely lose its splendor for me.

Still, go turn the 120hz off in system settings and see if the quality is better.

Mine was outputting at 1080p/120hz and after I turned it off, it outputted back to 4k/60 and the picture quality looked much sharper. It's a bug.
 
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Mar 16, 2014
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Still, go turn the 120hz off in system settings and see if the quality is better.

Mine was outputting at 1080p/120hz and after I turned it off, it outputted back to 4k/60 and the picture quality looked much sharper. It's a bug.
Why are we talking about 120Hz? This has nothing to do with that. Everything is sharp and clear, except for reflections which seem to lag behind everything else, even with screen space reflections. I think it's from their denoiser filter plus whatever temporal upscaling technique they're using to get sharper static reflections, but it completely breaks down in motion.
 
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TonyK

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I'm in the opposite way. Just today I was thinking about how good is the per object motion blur in this game, the closest to CG I've seen. So I hope next games will have at least a motion blur so good as in Ratchet.

Ahh, wait, I need to say I play in Fidelity mode. Maybe are you playing in performance?
 
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Dr Bass

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The ray tracing in R&C looks insane at times. The best I've ever seen in a game (But I haven't played some of the better PC games admittedly), but yeah. Have not noticed what you're talking about. Some of the later levels look amazing, and have some incredibly impressive details like entire rooms and characters being reflected in portal holes etc.
 

wOs

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Not noticed it specifically but in general I find RT reflections to be pretty unimpressive so far, at least as far as consoles can manage.

Yes, they're accurate - insofar as the BVH is accurate - but you'd never know the difference during gameplay. Ok, so you stop to look at them more closely - but the problem then becomes that looking at them closely reveals the simplified world that's reflected, generally at low res and sometimes at half the frame rate! You can even quite often see actual pixellation, something which I don't think I've seen in games since the PS2 days.

Sorry, but I just don't think this is a good use of the consoles' power. Maybe if they can get good RT GI working like in Metro then that'll be worth it, but I'm not convinced reflections will be worth the hassle.

I ended up using the regular performance mode in Ratchet, cos the extra pixels were much nicer than the RT.
I think for me is it is getting hard to not notice non ray traced or ray traced and still missing details like a person walking by. It's almost a curse that I wish was never pointed out.
 

jeffyjaixx

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Why are we talking about 120Hz? This has nothing to do with that. Everything is sharp and clear, except for reflections which seem to lag behind everything else, even with screen space reflections. I think it's from their denoiser filter plus whatever temporal upscaling technique they're using to get sharper static reflections, but it completely breaks down in motion.

Because there's a bug in the system with Ratchet in particular. If you have 120hz enabled, it changes the video output to 1080p. You can check it in the video output section of the system setting. When you turn it off, the video output changes to 4k. Therefore the image quality would be less crisp of course at 1080p. That's why I said go double check.
 

lh032

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i run the game on performance RT and did not notice what you said on the above.

Im more surprised there isnt any grass/plant physics in this game even for a next gen game, although i didnt care that much.
 

Spidey Fan

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Games ray tracing is achieving some incredible things, this is on a 500 dollar / euro machine..... instead of nitpicking, you should be asking how they actually managed to squeeze all that juice out....

It puts other games to shame.
It should be nitpicked. Stopping that is bullshit. Games should be held to a fair criticism.

RT on consoles isnt ready yet. It needs time, and experience from devs. Plus we are at the start of the gen. in mid gen, you will look back at ratchet, and laugh at how it does for RT. Because we are in the early phase, its hard to know what is wrong, until we check it every corner of the game. just like how DF does it. It helps the dev learn the issue, and fix it, or you get alien's: colonial marines issues. and the easy fix was 1 simple code, which made the game garbage. a modder found the issue for the game.
 
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Bryank75

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It should be nitpicked. Stopping that is bullshit. Games should be held to a fair criticism.

RT on consoles isnt ready yet. It needs time, and experience from devs. Plus we are at the start of the gen. in mid gen, you will look back at ratchet, and laugh at how it does for RT. Because we are in the early phase, its hard to know what is wrong, until we check it every corner of the game. just like how DF does it. It helps the dev learn the issue, and fix it, or you get alien's: colonial marines issues. and the easy fix was 1 simple code, which made the game garbage. a modder found the issue for the game.

R&C looks phenomenal, you are out of your mind if you're going to be criticizing it in the context of where the rest of the industry is in relation to it.... It makes everything else look laughably primitive.

Ray tracing depends a lot on raw power and Insomniac are work horses and technically excellent, nobody could do what they are doing with the same tech.

We just need more regular upgrades for hardware. A midgen refresh is necessary now due to how fast things are progressing.
 
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hybrid_birth

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The one thing that bothers me is people who make threads ripping apart rift apart's graphics.

No matter how great a game looks, it is never graphically enough for some people. Go play some ps1 games and appreciate how far we have come.
 
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Spidey Fan

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R&C looks phenomenal, you are out of your mind if you're going to be criticizing it in the context of where the rest of the industry is in relation to it.... It makes everything else look laughably primitive.

Ray tracing depends a lot on raw power and Insomniac are work horses and technically excellent, nobody could do what they are doing with the same tech.

We just need more regular upgrades for hardware. A midgen refresh is necessary now due to how fast things are progressing.
RT in console is dogshit compared to pc. especially since the use the amd, compared to the nvidia rtx. So please, stop praising Insomniac like a worshipper.

Cyberpunk, a last gen game has rtx better than ratchet and clank. and you need a high end gaming pc to even use a half of its rtx power.

We can discuss about the game state, but you cant deny its rtx is a top notch.
 

Bryank75

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RT in console is dogshit compared to pc. especially since the use the amd, compared to the nvidia rtx. So please, stop praising Insomniac like a worshipper.

Cyberpunk, a last gen game has rtx better than ratchet and clank. and you need a high end gaming pc to even use a half of its rtx power.

We can discuss about the game state, but you cant deny its rtx is a top notch.

I said we need a mid-gen refresh. Nvidia are ahead on raytracing....

I prefer the overall aesthetic of R&C but that is not all dependent on raytracing. My point was that given the limitations of the tech and how early we are in the console cycle, the raytracing was implemented quite well.
I have completed CP2077 and do not think much of it as a game, I have every ending too...
 

Spidey Fan

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I said we need a mid-gen refresh. Nvidia are ahead on raytracing....

I prefer the overall aesthetic of R&C but that is not all dependent on raytracing. My point was that given the limitations of the tech and how early we are in the console cycle, the raytracing was implemented quite well.
I have completed CP2077 and do not think much of it as a game, I have every ending too...
I agree with you on that one. we are still early, and its quite impressive what the devs can do with it.

was just mad, at how you were defending the game. I believe the game deserve some criticism. not everything is perfect. Even if the game is gorgeous, it still needs to be judged. and if we slack of with devs, we will get cyberpunk level in the future.
 
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Bryank75

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I agree with you on that one. we are still early, and its quite impressive what the devs can do with it.

was just mad, at how you were defending the game. I believe the game deserve some criticism. not everything is perfect. Even if the game is gorgeous, it still needs to be judged. and if we slack of with devs, we will get cyberpunk level in the future.

TBH I was just a bit disappointed that I finished it so fast.... there should have been something to do when you got to the end like a weekly rotating battle arena with new rewards every once in a while.
For the 90 euro I spent on it, the time flew by. Took me like 3 days to platinum, 4 tops and I am a busy father.....
 
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Don't get me wrong guys. I love Rift Apart and it's the best looking game I've ever seen. Everything else is top notch. I'm only saying the reflections in general look bad. I know why it's happening, I just don't like that accumulative effect of blending previous frames together to make a new one. It looks like one of those really old LCD TVs where the pixels can't change color fast enough so you get streaks and ghosting. It's separate from motion blur.

I think this stands out to me mostly because the rest of the game is so crisp and amazing looking, but the "must have" next gen feature kinda falls flat, especially considering that Spider-Man wasn't like this.
 
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Kuranghi

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Still, go turn the 120hz off in system settings and see if the quality is better.

Mine was outputting at 1080p/120hz and after I turned it off, it outputted back to 4k/60 and the picture quality looked much sharper. It's a bug.
Because there's a bug in the system with Ratchet in particular. If you have 120hz enabled, it changes the video output to 1080p. You can check it in the video output section of the system setting. When you turn it off, the video output changes to 4k. Therefore the image quality would be less crisp of course at 1080p. That's why I said go double check.

Thanks for the heads up about the bug, but at the risk of sounding like a complete bellend I don't need to turn a setting on and off to check if a bug is making the console output 1080p instead of 2160p, because I just look at the image the game is producing and I can tell the difference, I'm not saying I can tell the exact resolution just by looking at the image but I can certainly tell whether its 1080p or 2160p.
 

01011001

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I don't think that matters as I'm running the game in Fidelity mode. I flipped between the 3 modes at the start and they showed the expected loss of resolution as I went from Fidelity, to Performance and then RT Perf.

well there's your problem. low framerate + rt = ghosting

play in Performance RT mode and it should be way less
 
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JohnnyFootball

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I haven't noticed anything the OP is talking about and have been blown away by the ray tracing in performance mode on my LG C9.


I don't know what is wrong with people that think otherwise. Ray tracing was ALWAYS going to be a trade off. The fact that we can get ANY sort of ray tracing with 60 fps blows me away.
 
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jeffyjaixx

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Thanks for the heads up about the bug, but at the risk of sounding like a complete bellend I don't need to turn a setting on and off to check if a bug is making the console output 1080p instead of 2160p, because I just look at the image the game is producing and I can tell the difference, I'm not saying I can tell the exact resolution just by looking at the image but I can certainly tell whether its 1080p or 2160p.

Funny, because I thought the same thing about being able to differentiate between 1080p and 4k and there I was playing at 1080p and admiring the visuals until the 4th planet where I discovered that bug and suddenly the IQ looked even better after turning off 120HZ. 🤣
 
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Kuranghi

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Off-topic:

I was thinking about IQ changes as you approach 2160p and realised something.

3024x1701 is roughly the half-way between 1080p and 2160p pixels wise, thats why going from 1728p (a properly divisible by 8 res for a more likely example, instead of 1701p) to 2160p makes such a big difference to image quality and causes a rapid increase in GPU power required.

This might seem obvious to some but I think Digital Foundry confused a bunch of people in the past by describing 1440p in a way that made it sound like it was almost the mid point, pixel count wise, between 1080p and 2160p, when its actually really far off that. I think going forward they should use 3024x1728 as the mid point to take into account the non linear increase in pixel count and give you a better idea of the IQ difference you will get between various res'.

1080p is 2,073,600 pixels
1440p is 3,686,400 pixels
1530p is 4,161,600 pixels - Two times as many pixels as 1080p
1701p is 5,143,824 pixels - Roughly the half-way point between 1080p and 2160p, pixels wise
1728p is 5,308,416 pixels - Much more likely to be seen in a game vs. 1701p so just listing this for perspective
2160p is 8,294,400 pixels - Four times as many pixels as 1080p

Its such a massive jump in pixel count going from 1728p to 2160p and that explains why people like myself are always harping on about those extra few pixels on each axis, because it makes a massive difference to the total pixel count. I've always said I can easily see the difference between 1800p (or even 1944p, which is 6,718,464 pixels) and 2160p and doing the maths, it makes so much more sense now.

So the point is, I'm still an annoying bastard when it comes to IQ discussions, nothing changed there, but maybe this helps others see my perspective on spatial resolution increase and why it really makes a difference when you have a large 4K display (with a good quality upscaler).

well there's your problem. low framerate + rt = ghosting

play in Performance RT mode and it should be way less

I'll have a look but I'm not sure it will be a straight upgrade going to the 60fps RT mode, if the resolution of the RT Perf reflections is lower than in Fidelity mode then it will update the reflection at double the rate but the overall resolution will be lower so it will be blurrier/more pixelated in motion.

So I guess it depends on what you favor, having a shorter trail behind it or having less detail generally within the reflection. So while you increase the motion resolution by from going from 30 to 60 fps, you will show that lower resolution reflection more clearly in motion.

I can't watch the DF developer video due to not wanting spoilers yet so maybe they do a comparison of the reflections between the modes in that, I don't know. They said they would release a video on RT Perf mode at the end of the Jun 8th video, but I'm unclear if thats still to come or its in the developer video.
 
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By the way, the effect is still noticeable with performance RT and Performance modes. Screen space reflections are also affected.
 

01011001

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By the way, the effect is still noticeable with performance RT and Performance modes. Screen space reflections are also affected.

if SSR is also affected then it's some weird effect Insomniac added... or some weird sideffect of something.

but if SSR has the same issue then it can't be due to the accumulation or denoising of the RT reflections
 

Ozrimandias

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Ratchet is one of the best looking games I've ever seen, and I have a pretty beefy pc. Same as Forza 5, people saying lack of RT is terrible, but it's again one of the best looking games imo. Some people always gotta hate I guess.
We are reaching awesome graphics levels....i mean, REALLY awesome. Ratchet looks like a Pixar movie. But yeah.... nowadays "hate" or "complaining" over little things it's standard so, no 120hz, no good reflects on water, low Ray Tracing.
I Miss the old days I think.
 

Unknown?

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Not noticed it specifically but in general I find RT reflections to be pretty unimpressive so far, at least as far as consoles can manage.

Yes, they're accurate - insofar as the BVH is accurate - but you'd never know the difference during gameplay. Ok, so you stop to look at them more closely - but the problem then becomes that looking at them closely reveals the simplified world that's reflected, generally at low res and sometimes at half the frame rate! You can even quite often see actual pixellation, something which I don't think I've seen in games since the PS2 days.

Sorry, but I just don't think this is a good use of the consoles' power. Maybe if they can get good RT GI working like in Metro then that'll be worth it, but I'm not convinced reflections will be worth the hassle.

I ended up using the regular performance mode in Ratchet, cos the extra pixels were much nicer than the RT.
Lol, not according to DF.
 

clintar

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Off-topic:

I was thinking about IQ changes as you approach 2160p and realised something.

3024x1701 is roughly the half-way between 1080p and 2160p pixels wise, thats why going from 1728p (a properly divisible by 8 res for a more likely example, instead of 1701p) to 2160p makes such a big difference to image quality and causes a rapid increase in GPU power required.

This might seem obvious to some but I think Digital Foundry confused a bunch of people in the past by describing 1440p in a way that made it sound like it was almost the mid point, pixel count wise, between 1080p and 2160p, when its actually really far off that. I think going forward they should use 3024x1728 as the mid point to take into account the non linear increase in pixel count and give you a better idea of the IQ difference you will get between various res'.

1080p is 2,073,600 pixels
1440p is 3,686,400 pixels
1530p is 4,161,600 pixels - Two times as many pixels as 1080p
1701p is 5,143,824 pixels - Roughly the half-way point between 1080p and 2160p, pixels wise
1728p is 5,308,416 pixels - Much more likely to be seen in a game vs. 1701p so just listing this for perspective
2160p is 8,294,400 pixels - Four times as many pixels as 1080p

Its such a massive jump in pixel count going from 1728p to 2160p and that explains why people like myself are always harping on about those extra few pixels on each axis, because it makes a massive difference to the total pixel count. I've always said I can easily see the difference between 1800p (or even 1944p, which is 6,718,464 pixels) and 2160p and doing the maths, it makes so much more sense now.

So the point is, I'm still an annoying bastard when it comes to IQ discussions, nothing changed there, but maybe this helps others see my perspective on spatial resolution increase and why it really makes a difference when you have a large 4K display (with a good quality upscaler).



I'll have a look but I'm not sure it will be a straight upgrade going to the 60fps RT mode, if the resolution of the RT Perf reflections is lower than in Fidelity mode then it will update the reflection at double the rate but the overall resolution will be lower so it will be blurrier/more pixelated in motion.

So I guess it depends on what you favor, having a shorter trail behind it or having less detail generally within the reflection. So while you increase the motion resolution by from going from 30 to 60 fps, you will show that lower resolution reflection more clearly in motion.

I can't watch the DF developer video due to not wanting spoilers yet so maybe they do a comparison of the reflections between the modes in that, I don't know. They said they would release a video on RT Perf mode at the end of the Jun 8th video, but I'm unclear if thats still to come or its in the developer video.
I don't understand your half-way point being 1701p. How do you come up with that? Wouldn't two times as many pixels be the half-way point between 1080p and 2160p if 2160p is four times as many pixels?
 

Hunnybun

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Lol, not according to DF.

I keep meaning to go back to it and check. Certainly last time I played performance mode looked significantly sharper than perf RT, but I think sometimes you can kid yourself that you're seeing more of a difference than is really there.
 
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Kuranghi

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I don't understand your half-way point being 1701p. How do you come up with that? Wouldn't two times as many pixels be the half-way point between 1080p and 2160p if 2160p is four times as many pixels?

Maybe I'm being a moron but I did (8,294,400 - 2,073,600), then divided the result by two and added it on to 2,073,600 to get 5,184,000 and 1701p gave me the closest I could get to that.

So its more the midpoint between 1080p and 2160p, pixels wise, as a better way of evaluating how image quality increases as you increase res, rather than looking at the percentage both axis have increased, which would give roughly 1530p as the midway point.

Now I'm questioning it tho haha, maybe I'm going mental.
 

Kuranghi

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Lol, not according to DF.

Yeah I was perplexed by that, its a massive difference to me, couldn't do it after I saw how good Fidelity looked. Regular Perf mode was better but RT being removed makes you lose depth in a lot of the character/object designs imo.