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[Cleared_Hot]

This is so stupid. Annnd I don't even care. I live in Anchorage where we have cafes on every corner and they're ten times better than Starbucks water downed crap

 

[Vicetrailia]

If you read my post I consider profiling wrong, I realize there is a racial component to it, but if I’m honest I think it’s more about the way you carry yourself, dress, and present yourself to society in general. Sounds like white women understand how to be a thief, which is all about blending in and being unremarkable, or appearing upstanding. Many people could be improperly profiled, that is implicit when you are making snap judgments on appearance alone. Doesn’t mean people are going to stop, it’s required security behavior for people, everyone profiles people everywhere.

Departments are taught to identify suspecious behaviors, not race. Mom and pop shops don't have such educational programs/policies and it hurts their business.

Two Types of Diversity Training That Really Work

One of the most common ways that companies attempt to address organizational diversity is through formal training. Yet research on the effectiveness of such programs has yielded mixed results: Some studies show that diversity training is effective, others show it’s ineffective, and still others show that it may actually lead to backlash. This has led to pessimism regarding diversity training, with some claiming it simply doesn’t work.

We believe that pessimism is premature. For one, a recent meta-analysis of over 40 years of diversity training evaluations showed that diversity training can work, especially when it targets awareness and skill development and occurs over a significant period of time. But this doesn’t mean there’s a single perfect solution to creating diverse and inclusive organizations. Diversity training effectiveness depends on the specific training method used, the personality characteristics of those who are trained, and the specific outcomes that are measured after training concludes.

https://hbr.org/2017/07/two-types-of-diversity-training-that-really-work

Dear naysayers, improving diversity is also a defense mechanism for companies against situations like this.

 

[mckmas8808]

If you read my post I consider profiling wrong, I realize there is a racial component to it, but if I’m honest I think it’s more about the way you carry yourself, dress, and present yourself to society in general. Sounds like white women understand how to be a thief, which is all about blending in and being unremarkable, or appearing upstanding. Many people could be improperly profiled, that is implicit when you are making snap judgments on appearance alone. Doesn’t mean people are going to stop, it’s required security behavior for people, everyone profiles people everywhere.

But what if it's not just the clothes that make someone looks "suspicious"? And I remember during the Trayvon Martin stuff people were claiming that hoodies make you look like a thief and potential criminal. And I swear within weeks I starting noticing (they probably always wear them and I just wasn't noticing it) all kinds of white kids between the ages of 10-18 wearing hoodies from their high school sports teams or regular Nike or Adidas hoodies and it seemed like nobody batted an eye at them.

They looked super normal to me and I wondered why seeing little Timmy in a hoodie never spooked anyone.

Of course it will. The moment you do something to specialize groups it will cause resentment because this is the opposite of equality

Dunki do you hate forced exclusion and much as you hate forced diversity?

 

[LegendOfKage]

So is it really that hard to believe that someone that owns a Starbucks location committed an act of racism?

I used to manage a Starbucks in the early 2000s when they first came to my home town. Trespass rules are to stop the homeless and to manage the rush. I used it all the time. I'd have done it to these two gentlemen as well. I am also sure some of my employees at the time would have let them use it. There are sincerely nice people who can't say no and there are some who just don't care. In those cases they get less hours a week until they conformed.

If they had of done that when corporate was there publically OR not it was my ass.

The 2 men didn't buy or leave. Simple as that. Attach anything more and you are showing narrative. We know jack shit about the motive of the woman manager.

Here's a thought. If you hear that the police were called to arrest two black people sitting in a starbucks, and you instantly assume they were troublemakers, you might be showing some racial bias. This gets even worse the more you're SURE that the black guys were in the wrong. You're sure no racism took place. The only uncertainty in your mind is the level of good that came out of the situation. Maybe they were rude to the staff. Maybe they were meeting someone for drugs. Maybe they were there to plan a robbery. You don't know, and you assume the worst, merely because you heard something about the skin color of the people involved. This despite not knowing almost anything about the situation.

That's pre-judgement. That's prejudice. Rather than looking to facts for judgement, you're looking to skin color and making assumptions.

Now let's come at that from the other side. If you hear that the police were called to arrest two black people sitting in a starbucks, and you instantly assume the white manager is a racist, you might be showing some racial bias. This gets even worse the more you're SURE that the white female manager is a racist. You're sure those black guys were asked to leave because of the color of their skin. The only uncertainty in your mind is the level of harm that woman caused. Maybe she was rude to black customers. Maybe she used this policy to remove black people from the store for years. Maybe she trained her staff to remove black people. You don't know, and you assume the worst, merely because you heard something about the skin color of the people involved. This despite not knowing almost anything about the situation.

We're in a thread where a former starbucks manager has claimed that starbucks has a policy to ask people to leave if the store if it's busy and they haven't purchased anything. It's been said that some staff would follow the policy and some would not. It's also been said that by not following this policy, managers risked being chewed out by upper management.

And yet, still people would like to cling to their assumptions based on skin color. They KNOW that white manager is racist, or they KNOW that white manager was only removing trouble-making thugs from her store.

If you decide you don't know what happened. If you'd like there to be an investigation. If you look to facts to form your opinion rather than skin color. If you assume good faith on the part of everyone involved until proven otherwise, that's really the only not pre-judgmental way to approach a situation like this.

But you say this as if you know it's "not" true or possible that it was racism.

Based on what little facts we've been given about this incident, I think the only acceptable conclusion is that's it's impossible for us to know. I certainly don't believe that it's not possible that this happened because of racism. It very well might have been racism, or a lady might have just been fired and branded a racist for doing her job. I don't know. Either way, something unfortunate and unjust happened at Starbucks that day.

 

[llien]

Dear naysayers, improving diversity is also a defense mechanism for companies against situations like this.

Doing such training is indeed.

You don't seem to realize what "meta analysis of 40 years of diversity training" has shown that training "can work" means.
Disclaimer: Studies are paywalled and I couldn't get past the abstract.

The last link about how it "can" work is an experiment "involving 118 undergraduates", cough.

In other words, it is not effective, it is mostly not bringing results, be negative, but we already have a working model of a spherical horse in vacuum there still is hope.

I wonder, how could such training even work in a world, where Jonathan Heidt is "homophobic"? How could you make a totally non-homophobic person "less homophobic"? By teaching him to parrot certain sentences?

 

[Vicetrailia]

Doing such training is indeed.

You don't seem to realize what "meta analysis of 40 years of diversity training" has shown that training "can work" means.
Disclaimer: Studies are paywalled and I couldn't get past the abstract.

The last link about how it "can" work is an experiment "involving 118 undergraduates", cough.

In other words, it is not effective, it is mostly not bringing results, be negative, but we already have a working model of a spherical horse in vacuum there still is hope.

I wonder, how could such training even work in a world, where Jonathan Heidt is "homophobic"? How could you make a totally non-homophobic person "less homophobic"? By teaching him to parrot certain sentences?

Diversity training is still evolving. Plus there are several types of it, and some focuses on diverse communication and teamwork.

 

[mckmas8808]

Doing such training is indeed.

You don't seem to realize what "meta analysis of 40 years of diversity training" has shown that training "can work" means.
Disclaimer: Studies are paywalled and I couldn't get past the abstract.

The last link about how it "can" work is an experiment "involving 118 undergraduates", cough.

In other words, it is not effective, it is mostly not bringing results, be negative, but we already have a working model of a spherical horse in vacuum there still is hope.

I wonder, how could such training even work in a world, where Jonathan Heidt is "homophobic"? How could you make a totally non-homophobic person "less homophobic"? By teaching him to parrot certain sentences?

So are you saying that diversity training is worse than not having that kind of training at all?

 

[ilfait]

Here's a thought. If you hear that the police were called to arrest two black people sitting in a starbucks, and you instantly assume they were troublemakers, you might be showing some racial bias. This gets even worse the more you're SURE that the black guys were in the wrong. You're sure no racism took place. The only uncertainty in your mind is the level of good that came out of the situation. Maybe they were rude to the staff. Maybe they were meeting someone for drugs. Maybe they were there to plan a robbery. You don't know, and you assume the worst, merely because you heard something about the skin color of the people involved. This despite not knowing almost anything about the situation.

This is a common assumption a lot of people will make regardless of any information about skin colour, because people assume that it's unlikely that the police would be called and would make an arrest if there wasn't some disturbance of that sort.

I'm not going to comment on whether that's a reasonable assumption, but it's by far the most common. If anything, once skin colour is made known, that's when many more people will begin to assume that an injustice was perpetrated against those arrested. Right or wrong, the natural thought that the majority of people have when someone's forcibly removed from a restaurant in a country where the police and government aren't viewed as being rampantly corrupt or totalitarian is that the person has done something to warrant it.

 

[llien]

Diversity training is still evolving. Plus there are several types of it, and some focuses on diverse communication and teamwork.

In other words billions (?) of dollars worth industry is getting even bigger.
Let me guess what are the chances of certain, not totally unrelated to these folks, people discovering even more subtly problematic areas for financial reason alone?

So are you saying that diversity training is worse than not having that kind of training at all?

Depends on perspective.
A training that, as studies show, most of the time is ineffective or even "worsens the attitudes" is a waste of resources which is making the world worse. (and let's note that Starbuck's training is exactly of that, "worse, forced upon your throat" kind)
From company's "cover my arse" perspective, it's a perfect PR move.

 

[Vicetrailia]

In other words billions (?) of dollars worth industry is getting even bigger.
Let me guess what are the chances of certain, not totally unrelated to these folks, people discovering even more subtly problematic areas for financial reason alone?

I'm not really understanding what you're saying here. Diversity training yields mixed results, and companies are finding that going further to increase direct and diverse interaction in teams helps. It's not a magic bullet, but it is also important, and thus it isnt wasted resources necessarily. That depends on how you look at it. Resentful people are acknowledged, and training evolves.

 

[ilfait]

I'm not really understanding what you're saying here. Diversity training yields mixed results, and companies are finding that going further to increase direct and diverse interaction in teams helps. It's not a magic bullet, but it is also important, and thus it isnt wasted resources necessarily. That depends on how you look at it. Resentful people are acknowledged, and training evolves.

There's no need for some kind of long bullshit seminar and workshop. "Our company applies our policies universally regardless of gender, race, weight and hairstyle. By choosing to work for our company you agree to uphold this standard. Sign here" would be just as effective, if not more, which is to say minorly effective at best, unless the intention is to instill a fear in employees of applying policy universally.

 

[llien]

I'm not really understanding what you're saying here. Diversity training yields mixed results, and companies are finding that going further to increase direct and diverse interaction in teams helps. It's not a magic bullet, but it is also important, and thus it isnt wasted resources necessarily. That depends on how you look at it. Resentful people are acknowledged, and training evolves.

Ok, let me elaborate:

1) It is a major business.
2) Those, into this business are often the very people who assess how well a company is doing "in regards of diversity and inclusion" (a while ago ran into studies by two removed scientists, examining the same campus, but coming to exactly the opposite effects of significant magnitude, unfortunately I don't remember enough to find those. It was appalling to find out how financing those studies worked)
3) That business will become irrelevant, if the problem, which it was created to solve, is solved. So people from that business are NOT interested in solving it, on the opposite, they need to find more reasons to stay relevant. One day we can get to nano aggressions perhaps.
4) Last, but not least, problem might not even exist, like imaginary homophobia of Jonathan Haidt, and hence honest studies cannot show effectiveness of "solving" it. Jonathan Haidt is not homophobic, even if Jesus teaches him diversity and inclusion, he will still remain non-homophobic.

 

[mckmas8808]

There's no need for some kind of long bullshit seminar and workshop. "Our company applies our policies universally regardless of gender, race, weight and hairstyle. By choosing to work for our company you agree to uphold this standard. Sign here" would be just as effective, if not more, which is to say minorly effective at best.

Why would you and others that agree with you, feel like diversity training is as you say it a "bullshit seminar and workshop"?

 

[llien]

Why would you and others that agree with you, feel like diversity training is as you say it a "bullshit seminar and workshop"?

Studies linked earlier in this thread show that most of the time it brings nothing, but when forced, often makes things worse.
Guess if Starbuck's training qualifies as "forced".

 

[ilfait]

Why would you and others that agree with you, feel like diversity training is as you say it a "bullshit seminar and workshop"?

Because I find it hard to believe that corporate "racial bias training" would ever be an effective method of "curing" human bias.

Companies sometimes mandate a certain greeting upon a customer entering, or when answering the phone; this is for the most part effective and doesn't require a training course. Mandating that policies such as when customers are able to use the restrooms, or the duration that customers are allowed to sit without ordering, are to be universally applied only requires a similar process (i.e. telling the employee).

 

[mushy tailspin]

To spice this thread a bit:
Forced diversity training backfires, claims Harvard study




fox.com

I would of thought that was obvious, but studies are nice

 

[mushy tailspin]

Tldr quit fighting for equal rights minorities cause you're ruining the racists safe space. Bravo.

Except they have equal rights. Equal treatment is different.
I believe by treating them as victims that need protection is harming them more than helping them.

 

[nightfly]

What I don't get is shouldn't they be more upset with the police than Starbucks? Even if, hypothetically, the SB manager was racist and called the police due to it, once the police got there shouldn't they have been the ones to assess the situation and decide whether it's worth arresting them in the first place?

 

[Dash27]

So is it really that hard to believe that someone that owns a Starbucks location committed an act of racism?

Oh please. I'm at SB's all the time and it's a complete dick move to hang out there and not buy anything. I pay for their overpriced hot sugar caffeine and I even feel guilty if I'm there too long without buying something else. Even the homeless people buy stuff at the Starbucks I go to.

So if the complaint is they got called on it because they have extra melanin ... that's at best an interesting story to tell your friend. Because a million other people in the world had something mildly offensive happen to them too today and it's not a viral video with CEO's of huge corporations bending over to comply.

 

[Kadayi]

But what if it's not just the clothes that make someone looks "suspicious"? And I remember during the Trayvon Martin stuff people were claiming that hoodies make you look like a thief and potential criminal. And I swear within weeks I starting noticing (they probably always wear them and I just wasn't noticing it) all kinds of white kids between the ages of 10-18 wearing hoodies from their high school sports teams or regular Nike or Adidas hoodies and it seemed like nobody batted an eye at them.

Presumably, because they're kids, at college/school?

Put the same stuff on a bunch of 20 somethings hanging around going nothing and it's another matter entirely regardless of skin colour. As a clothing choice sportswear doesn't suggest employment for the most part, unless people are doing sport.

 

[strange headache]

The ends appear to justify the means.

The road to hell is paved by good intentions. But I'm sure it will be fine this time around, since the 'woke' people can do no wrong, right?

Departments are taught to identify suspecious behaviors, not race.

Oh yeah, good idea! Let's turn people into ideological tools and weaponize them against each other. Let's have everybody walk on eggshells and sow distrust between them out of fear they might be snitched out and dragged in front of a kangaroo court for wrongthink. It worked so well on american colleges, where ideologically motivated diversity and equity councils are now supervising a student's every move. Microaggressions are not about creating a safer environment, it's about micromanaging people's behavior and putting them under the illegitimate hegemony of a far left ideology.

The 1940's are calling, they want their totalitarian ideologies back!

Diversity training yields mixed results, and companies are finding that going further to increase direct and diverse interaction in teams helps. It's not a magic bullet, but it is also important, and thus it isnt wasted resources necessarily.

You don't really care whether diversity and implicit bias training works or not, you're just happy to see Starbucks paying lip-service to your ideology. They might as well hire an Exorcist and 'pray the racism away', because that would be equally as effective. But of course, you'd be against that, because it doesn't kowtow to your particular views.

 

[Vicetrailia]

The road to hell is paved by good intentions. But I'm sure it will be fine this time around, since the 'woke' people can do no wrong, right?



Oh yeah, good idea! Let's turn people into ideological tools and weaponize them against each other. Let's have everybody walk on eggshells and sow distrust between them out of fear they might be snitched out and dragged in front of a kangaroo court for wrongthink. It worked so well on american colleges, where ideologically motivated diversity and equity councils are now supervising a student's every move. Microaggressions are not about creating a safer environment, it's about micromanaging people's behavior and putting them under the illegitimate hegemony of a far left ideology.

The 1940's are calling, they want their totalitarian ideologies back!

https://www.shopify.com/retail/1195...s-to-prevent-shoplifting-in-your-retail-store

This is what retail practices. I work in retail at the moment.

You don't really care whether diversity and implicit bias training works or not, you're just happy to see Starbucks paying lip-service to your ideology. They might as well hire an Exorcist and 'pray the racism away', because that would be equally as effective. But of course, you'd be against that, because it doesn't kowtow to your particular views.

You haven't asked me what I think. Where I work at now we don't need the training, as it is a very diverse company with people all over the map. It's one of those naturally diverse companies through and through. There may still be racist people somewhere, but you can't do anything about that, nor do they matter. Diversity training isn't a magic bullet, but is a tool that is pretty hard to utilize as efficiently as corporations want.

The last company that I worked at had racists out the ass, and while I did well, it was rough especially for anyone who looked arab. But that company would never implement such a thing, one would just have to hope they hire more minorities seasonally, who make it to full employment.

I think Starbucks did a good job of being inclusive to minorities here. Nobody likes a racist.

 

[mushy tailspin]

https://www.shopify.com/retail/1195...s-to-prevent-shoplifting-in-your-retail-store

This is what retail practices. I work in retail at the moment.



You haven't asked me what I think. Where I work at now we don't need the training, as it is a very diverse company with people all over the map. It's one of those naturally diverse companies through and through. There may still be racist people somewhere, but you can't do anything about that, nor do they matter. Diversity training isn't a magic bullet, but is a tool that is pretty hard to utilize as efficiently as corporations want.

The last company that I worked at had racists out the ass, and while I did well, it was rough especially for anyone who looked arab. But that company would never implement such a thing, one would just have to hope they hire more minorities seasonally, who make it to full employment.

I think Starbucks did a good job of being inclusive to minorities here. Nobody likes a racist.

Wait Starbucks isn't diverse? All the ones near me are all black employees. Would a company that didn't have colors be racists? Why are people inherently racist in peoples eyes?

 

[mckmas8808]

What I don't get is shouldn't they be more upset with the police than Starbucks? Even if, hypothetically, the SB manager was racist and called the police due to it, once the police got there shouldn't they have been the ones to assess the situation and decide whether it's worth arresting them in the first place?

​

2 black men arrested at Starbucks get an apology from police​

​

PHILADELPHIA — Rashon Nelson initially brushed it off when the Starbucks manager told him he couldn't use the restroom because he wasn't a paying customer.​

​

He thought nothing of it when he and his childhood friend and business partner, Donte Robinson, were approached at their table and were asked if they needed help. The 23-year-old entrepreneurs declined, explaining they were just waiting for a business meeting. A few minutes later, they hardly noticed when the police came into the coffee shop — until officers started walking in their direction. "That's when we knew she called the police on us," Nelson told The Associated Press in the first interview by the two black men since video of their trespassing arrests April 12 touched off a furor around the U.S. over racial profiling, or what has been dubbed "retail racism" or "shopping while black."​

​

Nelson and Robinson were led away in handcuffs from the shop in the city's well-to-do Rittenhouse Square neighborhood in an incident recorded on a white customer's cellphone. In the week since, the men have met with Starbucks' apologetic CEO and have started pushing for lasting change at the coffee-shop chain, including new policies on discrimination and ejecting customers. "We do want to make sure it doesn't happen to anybody again," Robinson said. "What if it wasn't us sitting there? What if it was the kid that didn't know somebody that knew somebody? Do they make it to jail? Do they die? What happens?" On Thursday, they also got an apology from Philadelphia Police Commissioner Richard Ross, a black man who at first staunchly defended his officers' handling of the incident.​

​

"I should have said the officers acted within the scope of the law, and not that they didn't do anything wrong," Ross said. "Words are very important." At a news conference, a somber Ross said he "failed miserably" in addressing the arrests. He said that the issue of race is not lost on him and that he shouldn't be the person making things worse. "Shame on me if, in any way, I've done that," he said. He also said the police department did not have a policy for dealing for such situations but does now, and it will be released soon. Nelson and Robinson said they went to the Starbucks to meet Andrew Yaffe, a white local businessman, over a potential real estate opportunity. Three officers showed up not long after. Nelson said they weren't questioned but were told to leave immediately. Yaffe showed up as the men were being handcuffed and could be seen in the video demanding an explanation for the officers' actions. Nelson and Robinson did not resist arrest.​

​

"When you know that you did nothing wrong, how do you really react to it?" Nelson said. "You can either be ignorant or you can show some type of sophistication and act like you have class. That was the choice we had."​

It was not their first encounter with police. But neither had been arrested before, setting them apart from many of those they grew up with in their gritty southwest Philadelphia neighborhood. Nelson and Robinson spent hours in a jail cell and were released after midnight, when the district attorney declined to prosecute them. Nelson said he wondered if he'd make it home alive.​

​

"Any time I'm encountered by cops, I can honestly say it's a thought that runs through my mind," Nelson said. "You never know what's going to happen." Starbucks has said the coffee shop where the arrests occurred has a policy that restrooms are for paying customers only, but the company has no overall policy. The men's attorney, Stewart Cohen, said they were illegally profiled. The arrests prompted protests at the Starbucks and a national boycott. Kevin Johnson, CEO of the Seattle-based company, came to Philadelphia to meet with the men, called the arrests "reprehensible" and ordered more than 8,000 Starbucks stores closed on the afternoon of May 29 so that nearly 175,000 employees can receive training on unconscious bias. Robinson said that he appreciates the public support but that anger and boycotting Starbucks are not the solution. The men said they are looking for more lasting results and are in mediation with Starbucks to make changes, including the posting in stores of a customer bill of rights; the adoption of new policies on customer ejections and racial discrimination; and independent investigations of complaints.​

​

"You go from being someone who's just trying to be an entrepreneur, having your own dreams and aspirations, and then this happens," Nelson said. "How do you handle it? Do you stand up? Do you fight? Do you sit down and just watch everyone else fight for you? Do you let it slide, like we let everything else slide with injustice?"​

​

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/2...arbucks-get-an-apology-from-police/ar-AAw3zaL


So glad to see the police commissioner apolgize too because this is something that the cops could have talked out with the store owner. And do some of you guys not realize that this is how many people actually use StarBucks?

Presumably, because they're kids, at college/school?

Put the same stuff on a bunch of 20 somethings hanging around going nothing and it's another matter entirely regardless of skin colour. As a clothing choice sportswear doesn't suggest employment for the most part, unless people are doing sport.

This literally makes no sense. Sportswear doesn't indicate anything. It's just sports wear. It doesn't say that I don't have a job and I'm up to no good. What state do you live in?

 

[Vicetrailia]

Wait Starbucks isn't diverse? All the ones near me are all black employees. Would a company that didn't have colors be racists? Why are people inherently racist in peoples eyes?

I never said that about Starbucks. This manager made racist judgements and got caught by customers who don't play that shit.

 

[TrainedRage]

Guys. What is so hard to understand here? The ONLY reason they were asked to leave is because they were black. These men broke no rules, clearly were being polite and reasonable yet some evil white devil kicked them out! You people make me sick. I can't believe this forum has become so alt right.



How was that y'all? Did my virtuous nature come across well? I'm just a white guy trying to represent what all black people think and feel about this. God just look at the 3 minute clip that shows the ENTIRE encounter. Are you all blind!?!

 

[mushy tailspin]

I never said that about Starbucks. This manager made racist judgements and got caught by customers who don't play that shit.

Would it be racist if the company was forced to hire under qualified? Or racist for not.
They get the tuition money, they get the place in school, lets just give the job too EQUALITY

 

[Vicetrailia]

Would it be racist if the company was forced to hire under qualified? Or racist for not

Starbucks doesn't hire unqualified people is my guess. If they did it's nepotism, it went undetected, or they simply made a bad judgement.

 

[ilfait]

Does anyone have a link to an account given by the manager?

edit: found this:

The former Starbucks manager whose telephone call initiated the controversial arrest of two African-American men at her downtown Philadelphia store told 911, “I have two gentlemen at my cafe that are refusing to make a purchase or leave,” according to the taped audio of the call released by police Tuesday.

Responding to the 4:37 p.m. call last Thursday, the operator said she would send police to the location at 18th and Spruce Streets and, about three minutes later, a radio dispatcher can be heard in the audio saying, “1801 Spruce at Starbucks a group of males” was “refusing to leave.”

http://abcnews.go.com/US/starbucks-manager-told-911-men-refusing-make-purchase/story?id=54555672

He thought nothing of it when he and his childhood friend and business partner, Donte Robinson, were approached at their table and were asked if they needed help. The 23-year-old entrepreneurs declined, explaining they were just waiting for a business meeting. A few minutes later, they hardly noticed when the police came into the coffee shop — until officers started walking in their direction. "That's when we knew she called the police on us,"

Someone's either adding a key piece of information here, or leaving one out. Were they only "approached (and) asked if they needed help" before the police were called, or were they approached and asked to either make a purchase or leave?

 

[Vicetrailia]

Does anyone have a link to an account given by the manager?

edit: found this:

The former Starbucks manager whose telephone call initiated the controversial arrest of two African-American men at her downtown Philadelphia store told 911, “I have two gentlemen at my cafe that are refusing to make a purchase or leave,” according to the taped audio of the call released by police Tuesday.

Responding to the 4:37 p.m. call last Thursday, the operator said she would send police to the location at 18th and Spruce Streets and, about three minutes later, a radio dispatcher can be heard in the audio saying, “1801 Spruce at Starbucks a group of males” was “refusing to leave.”

http://abcnews.go.com/US/starbucks-manager-told-911-men-refusing-make-purchase/story?id=54555672



Someone's either adding a key piece of information here, or leaving one out. Were they only "approached" and "asked if they needed help" before the police were called, or were they approached and asked to make a purchase or leave?

https://apple.news/AYlFb6RSpTIiXQFxA6xn6GA

 

[Cleared_Hot]

So does this mean they have to let people loiter and use the restroom as long as they want without ordering anything now?! So dumb

 

[ilfait]

https://apple.news/AYlFb6RSpTIiXQFxA6xn6GA

Some somewhat relevant quotes from the link for convenience:

Holly – who wouldn’t give me her last name nor share a business card for fear that it would spark online stalking, either by me or whomever I passed her information along to – has managed the 18th & Spruce Street location for a year. And, during that time, she has encountered many individuals who loiter in the café with no intentions of purchasing; at least one of those persons, she claims, chased her around the store after she asked them to leave. (Note, this an account of previous situations, not the one in question)

Holly told me that she doesn’t inform the customers that she’ll be calling the police. I retorted: “Everyone deserves a warning.” (Doesn't specify whether or not the customers were asked to leave, only that they weren't told that the police would be called)

An even longer video of the encounter than what has been previously circulated around the internet, appears to show several Philadelphia police officers asking the two young men to leave. They refused. And it became clear arrests were impending.

 

[Kadayi]

This literally makes no sense. Sportswear doesn't indicate anything. It's just sports wear. It doesn't say that I don't have a job and I'm up to no good.

Depends on the situation.

What state do you live in?

The 51st State.

 

[Cleared_Hot]

Again, don’t train the people in Starbucks train the police.

Wtf did they do wrong?!

 

[mckmas8808]

So does this mean they have to let people loiter and use the restroom as long as they want without ordering anything now?! So dumb

They were meeting a real estate business partner at Starbucks. It's not that unusual to meet people at a mid-point in a city for a business meeting. Funny enough they may have stayed there and bought something when the real estate guy ended up showing up minutes later.

Some somewhat relevant quotes from the link for convenience:

Holly – who wouldn’t give me her last name nor share a business card for fear that it would spark online stalking, either by me or whomever I passed her information along to – has managed the 18th & Spruce Street location for a year. And, during that time, she has encountered many individuals who loiter in the café with no intentions of purchasing; at least one of those persons, she claims, chased her around the store after she asked them to leave. (Note, this an account of previous situations, not the one in question)

Holly told me that she doesn’t inform the customers that she’ll be calling the police. I retorted: “Everyone deserves a warning.” (Doesn't specify whether or not the customers were asked to leave, only that they weren't told that the police would be called)

An even longer video of the encounter than what has been previously circulated around the internet, appears to show several Philadelphia police officers asking the two young men to leave. They refused. And it became clear arrests were impending.

This whole this is just a mess. None of it had to escalate to the police being called or an arrest being made. Too bad not everyone knows how to communicate and not make a mess out of nothing.

 

[ilfait]

Wtf did they do wrong?!

The only thing I could criticise, and this isn't a matter of whether they're doing their job, but more of a criticism of what the job of the police should be and how it should be carried out, is that if it was in fact a situation of the men refusing to leave, but not resisting being handcuffed and escorted out, threatening anyone etc, in my opinion the police should have let them go once outside the store instead of arresting them.

 

[Cleared_Hot]

So let me get this straight.... They wanted to conduct their own business inside somebody else's private business, without paying then anything?


Also, who go into a coffee shop and just sits down right away to wait? You go in order ancofee have a seat and wait like everyone with common sense knows you're supposed to do before you sit down and use their free WiFi. They were warned. The manager escalated things but she's probably had bad experiences. Also, being from Philly, this was located in one of, if not the, most wealthy parts of the city and most likely extremely busy compared to the average Starbucks. It's a huge red flag for people to enter and just hang out with out making a purchase first because seating is limited. And anyone who walks in sits down and doesn't order is always going to be immediately noticed regardless of race so they highlighted themselves right from the start.

 

[ilfait]

This whole this is just a mess. None of it had to escalate to the police being called or an arrest being made. Too bad not everyone knows how to communicate and not make a mess out of nothing.

That would have definitely been a much better situation, and you're right that it may have been avoidable through better communication between the customers and the manager. The link that ssolitare posted gives some interesting context (previous incidents in the store) for why it may have happened the way it did.

If the manager did ask them to leave as she says she did, they could have left and avoided being arrested. If they had left when the police asked them to leave they could have avoided being arrested. But if they truly believed that they were being unjustly treated and decided to take a stand, then at that point, unless the police decided to be lenient enough (and based on only my partial knowlege of the details I think this would have been the right thing to do) to release them after they were taken out of the store, the situation had become unavoidable.

 

[SatansReverence]

But you say this as if you know it's "not" true or possible that it was racism. I don't get to live in a world were racism doesn't exist until it's 500% proven that it does. That's not my life or most of my friends and family's lives either. I live in a world were racism (sexism and homophobia too ) does exist and needs to be pushed back on.

I like how you subconsciously show that you will never accept a world without racism. You will always cry racism first no matter the situation to push your victim complex.

Here's a thought. If you hear that the police were called to arrest two black people sitting in a starbucks, and you instantly assume they were troublemakers, you might be showing some racial bias. This gets even worse the more you're SURE that the black guys were in the wrong. You're sure no racism took place. The only uncertainty in your mind is the level of good that came out of the situation. Maybe they were rude to the staff. Maybe they were meeting someone for drugs. Maybe they were there to plan a robbery. You don't know, and you assume the worst, merely because you heard something about the skin color of the people involved. This despite not knowing almost anything about the situation.

That's pre-judgement. That's prejudice. Rather than looking to facts for judgement, you're looking to skin color and making assumptions.

Here's a thought, flip that around and assume from the get go there was no reason for the arrests other than being black and you show a clear and defined persecution complex.

So glad to see the police commissioner apolgize too because this is something that the cops could have talked out with the store owner. And do some of you guys not realize that this is how many people actually use StarBucks?

All that is seen and heard from your posts is "wah wah mmah equality!!!! but but but I need special treatment too!"

They were asked to leave on more than one occasion. They have absolutely no right to stay on private property.

 

[Dunki]

Dunki do you hate forced exclusion and much as you hate forced diversity?

Yes of course. whats bad here is the forced. I o not hate diversity. I hate it when its forced because it is also not true diversity.

 

[Vicetrailia]

I like how you subconsciously show that you will never accept a world without racism. You will always cry racism first no matter the situation to push your victim complex.



Here's a thought, flip that around and assume from the get go there was no reason for the arrests other than being black and you show a clear and defined persecution complex.



All that is seen and heard from your posts is "wah wah mmah equality!!!! but but but I need special treatment too!"

They were asked to leave on more than one occasion. They have absolutely no right to stay on private property.

Ah the good ol' victim mentality bullshit. If you could read, i'd point you to this:

https://newsone.com/694605/do-black-people-who-claim-racism-have-a-victim-mentality/

 

[Phoenix RISING]

So these brothas got two minutes grace before the police were notified.

 

[ilfait]

So these brothas got two minutes grace before the police were notified.

The time of the call is a certainty, but is the time of their arrival a certainty, even if we take them at their word? Is it based on a text they sent when they had arrived to the person they were meant to be meeting? Is it just based on their best recollection?

Damning evidence against the manager if it's even close to being accurate.

 

[Vicetrailia]

 

[bitbydeath]

Well if that’s true, the manager should be sacked and the two guys should get at least 1 year of free coffee/snacks whatevs.

The police officers should also be held accountable and placed on suspension for not investigating the situation properly as is their job.

 

[Moneal]

Well if that’s true, the manager should be sacked and the two guys should get at least 1 year of free coffee/snacks whatevs.

The police officers should also be held accountable and placed on suspension for not investigating the situation properly as is their job.

there was nothing for the police to investigate. a business says someone is trespassing and wants them removed the police show up and removed them, either on their own or by arrest. its not for the police to decide who is or isn't trespassing. The men were asked to leave by the police and told if they didn't they would be arrested for trespassing, which they refused and were then arrested.

 

[ilfait]

there was nothing for the police to investigate. a business says someone is trespassing and wants them removed the police show up and removed them, either on their own or by arrest. its not for the police to decide who is or isn't trespassing. The men were asked to leave by the police and told if they didn't they would be arrested for trespassing, which they refused and were then arrested.

Agree with this. It's up to Starbucks to investigate it, but until that time the manager represents the holder of the property, and it's the duty of the police to enforce private property laws, for better or worse.

Unless by investigate he means to take the context and behaviour of the trespassers into consideration when deciding to make an arrest vs. a fine vs. removal + warning.

 

[Cybrwzrd]

Call me old, but you don't go hang out in restaurants/cafes without ordering something. They could have bought a coffee when they walked in, and not had any problems.

 

[ilfait]

Call me old, but you don't go hang out in restaurants/cafes without ordering something. They could have bought a coffee when they walked in, and not had any problems.

Sure they could have, but what if they wanted to wait until the person they were meeting there arrived before ordering? If the timeframe they've given is accurate and they had only just arrived, what if they just wanted to relax and sit for a moment, maybe think about what they were going to order.

 

[Moneal]

Sure they could have, but what if they wanted to wait until the person they were meeting there arrived before ordering? If the timeframe they've given is accurate and they had only just arrived, what if they just wanted to relax and sit for a moment, maybe think about what they were going to order.

even by their account they they told an employee at least 2 times they weren't going to buy anything before the cops were called.