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[<+)O Robido O(+>]

Affirmative action and special treatment will cause more hatred because people believe they are treated unfairly which is in fact the case here. There is no positive discrimination it is still discrimination and the idea to fight discrimination with discrimination is insane to me.

Say we get rid of affirmative action. Do you assume the system won't just go back to what it was before?

 

[Cato]

Say we get rid of affirmative action. Do you assume the system won't just go back to what it was before? And with unemployment as low as it is

Affirmative action is a double edge sword. In some cases it may be justified but it will often also have unintended consequences.
Please read the full post before discarding.

Say for example affirmative action in enrollment to medical school. Currently,as I understand it, in several place the acceptance criteria is highest for Asians (and Orientals), then White studens come next and they are accepted on a lower score, followed finally by Black students that are accepted on thresholds lower than both Asians and Whites.

Now, intelligence and ability in a group follows a bell curve.
This means one thing for the average of the group but also that you have outliers that lie way above or way below the average.
This DOES NOT mean the averages between the races differ. That is a different topic and irrelevant here.
But IF you selectively have a higher threshold of ONE demographics in the selection criterias, then this will mean that the outcome
will be that that demographic will be on average better once they graduate.

Simply: If you only accept super intelligent application from group A to med school but average applicants from groups B and C, do not be surprised that once they graduate
that group A will still be on average better than B and C.


Ideally, when my kids are sick I want to take them to the best possible doctor. The best of the best I guess are the noble price winners in medicine.
I can not afford to or even have access to any of those.
Still, I do observe that these best-of-the-best doctors do come from all races and skin hues.
This group of outliers have white, black, asian, and others in the set.
All races have exceptional doctors, but I dont have access to those outliers.

There is a strong correlation between SAT scores, intelligence and ability to perform. That is not in question.
What affirmative action does in this case is skewing the averages between the races.
I.e. The average Asian doctor will be (a little bit) better than the average White doctor, which in turn will be (a little bit better) than the average Black doctor.
(I dont know where latino doctors fall in this but it doesn't matter).

This is a simple consequence of skewing the acceptance thresholds to entry into med school. The problem is real.


Now, if person X decides he needs a doctor for his/her child.
It would be completely rational for person X to disregard any White doctors and any Black doctors and insist that
only Asian doctors are acceptable.
It is a simple game of playing the averages when no other information i available on "who is the best doctor" than their skin colour.

For a parent that cares for their child and wants the best doctor, this system has now created a situation where the
higher chance of getting the best, or at least better than average, doctor is to look for yellow or brown skin and disregard
white and black skin. And that making a choice based on skin colour is the rational thing to do.

I think this is highly undesirable and a bad real consequence of affermative action.


In this case, X is not racist even if X openly states he/she will NOT accept a White or Black doctor.
The decision to pick a doctor is not based on racial superiority but simply that the system is rigged in such a way that
only the best-of-the best Asian are accepted to med school compared to Whites and Blacks.

There are obviously very many very good Black doctors. But is it impossible to assume that they might be harmed
by the perception I discussed above that is caused by affermative action?


This is why I am uncertain that affirmative action is a good thing. At least when it comes to college admissions.

 

[TheMikado]

Affirmative action is a double edge sword. In some cases it may be justified but it will often also have unintended consequences.
Please read the full post before discarding.

Say for example affirmative action in enrollment to medical school. Currently,as I understand it, in several place the acceptance criteria is highest for Asians (and Orientals), then White studens come next and they are accepted on a lower score, followed finally by Black students that are accepted on thresholds lower than both Asians and Whites.

Now, intelligence and ability in a group follows a bell curve.
This means one thing for the average of the group but also that you have outliers that lie way above or way below the average.
This DOES NOT mean the averages between the races differ. That is a different topic and irrelevant here.
But IF you selectively have a higher threshold of ONE demographics in the selection criterias, then this will mean that the outcome
will be that that demographic will be on average better once they graduate.

Simply: If you only accept super intelligent application from group A to med school but average applicants from groups B and C, do not be surprised that once they graduate
that group A will still be on average better than B and C.


Ideally, when my kids are sick I want to take them to the best possible doctor. The best of the best I guess are the noble price winners in medicine.
I can not afford to or even have access to any of those.
Still, I do observe that these best-of-the-best doctors do come from all races and skin hues.
This group of outliers have white, black, asian, and others in the set.
All races have exceptional doctors, but I dont have access to those outliers.

There is a strong correlation between SAT scores, intelligence and ability to perform. That is not in question.
What affirmative action does in this case is skewing the averages between the races.
I.e. The average Asian doctor will be (a little bit) better than the averate White doctor, which in turn will be (a little bit better) than the Black doctor.
(I dont know where latino doctors fall in this but it doesn't matter).

This is a simple consequence of skewing the acceptance thresholds to entry into med school. The problem is real.


Now, if person X decides he needs a doctor for his/her child.
It would be completely rational for person X to disregard any White doctors and any Black doctors and insist that
only Asian doctors are acceptable.
It is a simple game of playing the averages when no other information i available on "who is the best doctor" than their skin colour.

For a parent that cares for their child and wants the best doctor, this system has now created a situation where the
higher chance of getting the best, or at least better than average, doctor is to look for yellow or brown skin and disregard
white and black skin. And that making a choice based on skin colour is the rational thing to do.

I think this is highly undesirable and a bad real consequence of affermative action.


In this case, X is not racist even if X openly states he/she will NOT accept a White or Black doctor.
The decision to pick a doctor is not based on racial superiority but simply that the system is rigged in such a way that
only the best-of-the best Asian are accepted to med school compared to Whites and Blacks.

There are obviously very many very good Black doctors. But is it impossible to assume that they might be harmed
by the perception I discussed above that is caused by affermative action?


This is why I am uncertain that affirmative action is a good thing. At least when it comes to college admissions.

What you’re describing is NOT Affirmative Action.

This is the modern interpretation of affirmative action which assumes equality across the board which is he opposite of the implementation of affirmative action in the US. In relation to race, when affirmative action was developed it was because college applicants were turned away regardless of superior test scores because of race. What you are describing was never its intended purpose or use which is why using this argument against affirmative action as a whole makes no sense because you’re removing the historical context of why it was created in the first place. It was created because 50 years ago there were institutions which would discriminate against individuals even with higher test scores. As I said you can argue against it’s application now but it’s like arguing that all hammers are bad and should be banned because the tool is being misused from its original purpose and design so your decredit all hammers and their historical use instead of correcting the current misusage of it.

 

[EviLore]

This is the sociopolitical climate in the States right now, mainly. Starbucks does some good stuff for its workers and they're probably just trying to do the right thing in general. I suggest checking out the NPR "How I Built This" episode on Howard Schultz and Starbucks for some deeper insight:

https://www.npr.org/player/embed/551874532/554086519

 

[Cato]

What you’re describing is NOT Affirmative Action.

This is the modern interpretation of affirmative action which assumes equality across the board which is he opposite of the implementation of affirmative action in the US. In relation to race, when affirmative action was developed it was because college applicants were turned away regardless of superior test scores because of race. What you are describing was never its intended purpose or use which is why using this argument against affirmative action as a whole makes no sense because you’re removing the historical context of why it was created in the first place. It was created because 50 years ago there were institutions which would discriminate against individuals even with higher test scores. As I said you can argue against it’s application now but it’s like arguing that all hammers are bad and should be banned because the tool is being misused from its original purpose and design so your decredit all hammers and their historical use instead of correcting the current misusage of it.

I understand and have sympathy for why affermative action is/was needed. I am just saying that it has unforseen consequences that sometimes may cause harm to those groups it aims
to protect/help.

I am ok not calling "student acceptance thresholds are different between races because policy" affirmative action.
What would you call it then if you don't want to call it affermative action. We have to have a word for it if we are to discus it.
(Though those colleges do refer to it as affirmative action I think. I do not dispute them may use the word wrongly. Bring it up with them and correct their errors)

Regardless of what noun we use to describe the skewing of acceptance criteria based on race, it still leads to the problematic outcome
I describe where it becomes rational to discriminate against race.

We can call it the "asians-needs-a-roadblock" program. It does not change anything in my argument.


Regardless of nomenclature: I try to say that even the best intended "lets discriminate against X to benefit Y" will always have negative side-effects against Y.
Lets not discriminate against anyone, ok?

 

[Dunki]

Say we get rid of affirmative action. Do you assume the system won't just go back to what it was before?

No because people have changed. Other people are in positions now etc. Do you really believe that people would go back to discriminate people without affirmative action? If you actually believe this you have already a very clear generalisation and prejudices of certain people of a certain color.

As I said multiple times already the generations have changed and you can see this in the statistics of 20-30 year olds

And T TheMikado why can you not stop justifying affirmative action with history? It was needed back then yes. No one ever disputed that but now it is not anymore. And to set a sign and a message how we have changed by getting rid of it we have a message of equality. And people who before were cut off their jobs, postitions because of affirmative action are happy too. Do you want to acknowledge that the world has changed or do you want to make people believe that nothing has changed at all?

Affirmative action is a tool of the past not the present or future.

 

[<+)O Robido O(+>]

No because people have changed. Other people are in positions now etc. Do you really believe that people would go back to discriminate people without affirmative action?

Of course I do. It's been 50+ years since Civil Rights was signed into law and we still had to implement Affirmative Action because white people see a "black name" on an application and still find ways not to hire them despite their qualifications.

If you actually believe this you have already a very clear generalization and prejudices of certain people of a certain color.

I most certainly do. I've been dealing with citizens of America of a certain color my whole life and they've never not lived up to expectations.

As I said multiple times already the generations have changed and you can see this in the statistics of 20-30 year olds

Current generations are raised by the previous generations. Eventually racism will be phased out. But while there are people like you on the internet that attribute the 50% homicide rate to 100% of the 13% committing them they process slows. Todays 20 - 30 year olds aren't in power now, and by the time they get in power their idealism will have turned jaded and they'll be another cog in the machine going along to get along. Perpetuating the current paradigm because it benefits them personally while ignoring the larger social ramifications.

 

[Dunki]

Of course I do. It's been 50+ years since Civil Rights was signed into law and we still had to implement Affirmative Action because white people see a "black name" on an application and still find ways not to hire them despite their qualifications.


I most certainly do. I've been dealing with citizens of America of a certain color my whole life and they've never not lived up to expectations.

Current generations are raised by the previous generations. Eventually racism will be phased out. But while there are people like you on the internet that attribute the 50% homicide rate to 100% of the 13% committing them they process slows. Todays 20 - 30 year olds aren't in power now, and by the time they get in power their idealism will have turned jaded and they'll be another cog in the machine going along to get along. Perpetuating the current paradigm because it benefits them personally while ignoring the larger social ramifications.

You have a blind hiring process you do not need affirmative action anymore. You only need it if you actually want an advantage as a minority. Also I NEVER did commit 100% of black people to the homicide rate. I said to change peoples perception you need to change these statistics and I also said if I were a police officer I would be extremly careful during my job with black people since I mostly do not handle normal black people but criminals.

Racism will never be phased out as long one race if you really want to go with race will have advantages. Again affirmative action is discrimination. There is no other meaning for it. If you see it as positive or negative depends on the view of the person. A white person who lost a job opportunity will see it as unfair.

I also dealt with my fair share of racism but I even got told that almost did cost me my life was not even racism. Racism is something everyone can experience be it white, black, asian or whatever.

 

[<+)O Robido O(+>]

You have a blind hiring process you do not need affirmative action anymore.

Do these blind processes involve hiring people sight unseen? Are we phasing out face to face interviews?

Also I NEVER did commit 100% of black people to the homicide rate.

You said 13% percent of the population commits 50+% of the murders. What is a reasonable person supposed to glean from that sentence?

Racism will never be phased out as long one race if you really want to go with race will have advantages

Lol. I know you only get your stats from twitter and the like, come to America and see first hand how the majority of Americans will willfully ignore the the plight of the disadvantaged and will come up with ever excuse in the book so they aren't accomplishes to the obvious.

I also said if I were a police officer I would be extremly careful during my job with black people since I mostly do not handle normal black people but criminals.

If 17,000 people are murdered in a populace of 325 million by an even smaller percentage of the populace that primarily murders themselves, WTF are you scared of? Being a police officer in America isn't even the deadliest job in America. And the percentage of those that are killed by the populace is dwarfed by them dying to heart attacks and car crashes. But go ahead and be scared of black people and not high cholesterol and reckless driving.

Again affirmative action is discrimination.

It sure is. Because left unchecked the majorities tribalism will only let them hire eachother and only deign to hire minorities for the lowest paying jobs.

A white person who lost a job opportunity will see it as unfair.

Because equality is oppression for the privileged.

 

[Alx]

Lol. I know you only get your stats from twitter and the like, come to America and see first hand how the majority of Americans will willfully ignore the the plight of the disadvantaged and will come up with ever excuse in the book so they aren't accomplishes to the obvious.

Same America that seems obsessed with putting people into racial categories, each with different cultural, social and administrative rules. So yeah from a European standpoint, that system seems deeply flawed in that it institutionalizes racism.

 

[5secondrulesucks]

man that dude with the prince avatar has a huge chip on his shoulder

 

[<+)O Robido O(+>]

Same America that seems obsessed with putting people into racial categories, each with different cultural, social and administrative rules..

Yup. One and the same. You'd think it would be faulty to criticize the minority that protests the system but I keeps seeing them non Americans railing at the complainers and siting Breitbart/twitter statistics out of one side of their mouths and criticizing the very same systems out of the other side of their mouths. Its nonsensical to me, but hey... i'm just a black guy in America; what do I know.

 

[Dunki]

Do these blind processes involve hiring people sight unseen? Are we phasing out face to face interviews?

You said 13% percent of the population commits 50+% of the murders. What is a reasonable person supposed to glean from that sentence?

Lol. I know you only get your stats from twitter and the like, come to America and see first hand how the majority of Americans will willfully ignore the the plight of the disadvantaged and will come up with ever excuse in the book so they aren't accomplishes to the obvious.

If 17,000 people are murdered in a populace of 325 million by an even smaller percentage of the populace that primarily murders themselves, WTF are you scared of? Being a police officer in America isn't even the deadliest job in America. And the percentage of those that are killed by the populace is dwarfed by them dying to heart attacks and car crashes. But go ahead and be scared of black people and not high cholesterol and reckless driving.

It sure is. Because left unchecked the majorities tribalism will only let them hire eachother and only deign to hire minorities for the lowest paying jobs.

Because equality is oppression for the privileged.

1. No because also the most important part is combability and you only can get this when you talk to people face to face. We are mostly talking about the first process. But believing that these days people would hire people base on their skincolor is also a sign of mistrust on your part. And then of course you can pull the good old racist card if they do not hire you. because it is much easier to do this instead of selfreflection.

2. These are statistics you can not just ignore because it looks unfair. Tht is why I am saying that you need to change these statistics if you want to change the peoples perception. And these stats are not from twitter but from the FBI. If you suggest that the FBI is racist because of this I can not help you anymore.

3. I said over and over again that for example women in their 20 till 30 already earning more, outclassing them in positions etc. This is the current situation that will gradually change because the old will retire. What you want is from 0 to 100 in a day but that is just naive. Change will need time and we already see the results of this change. Affirmative action is not needed anymore. And again it will send a message to the people that we have reach equality. How long do you think black should have an advantage? Again rules, laws can be outdated and affirmative action is something that is outdated

And fuck privilege. poverty is a problem for many people even people who work hardly get by. Do you really believe these people here have white priviellege. Again stop with this race bullshit..

 

[5secondrulesucks]

Yup. One and the same. You'd think it would be faulty to criticize the minority that protests the system but I keeps seeing them non Americans railing at the complainers and siting Breitbart/twitter statistics out of one side of their mouths and criticizing the very same systems out of the other side of their mouths. Its nonsensical to me, but hey... i'm just a black guy in America; what do I know.

no offense but you really havent been making a good argument. youre just saying " IM REALLY MAD AT SHIT AND I DONT KNOW WHY"

 

[<+)O Robido O(+>]

1. No because also the most important part is combability and you only can get this when you talk to people face to face

So you think that the people who would deny you a job based on your name still wouldn't deny you a job once they meet you in person? Lol. Ok.

But believing that these days people would hire people base on their skincolor is also a sign of mistrust on your part

Mistrust well earned though. I've been told, on several occaisions, that I'm "one of the good ones" just because of my skin tone. I've also had my work called into question because, you know... I'm black and I shouldn't know certain things.

2. These are statistics you can not just ignore because it looks unfair.

We aren't talking about those statistics though. We're talking about how you present them. You say 50+% of the murders are committed by 13% percent of the population. You don't stop to think that its a silly argument that 13+ million people kill half of 17,000 people out of 325 million people. You state it and move on.

3. I said over and over again that for example women in their 20 till 30 already earning more, outclassing them in positions etc

Then when they get knocked up and have to leave the job force, then what?

. This is the current situation that will gradually change because the old will retire

Once they retire, the ladies will be off raising their babies and those same men that cry about their rights and their imagined slights on behalf of the crybabies will be in power.

What you want is from 0 to 100 in a day but that is just naive.

Can I get 0 to 100 in 54 years though? It's been 54 years since racism was deemed illegal, yet we've moved what... 10% forward? The electoral college majority want to "Make America Great Again" which means what? Rolling back years of progress so the "majority" is comfortable again with the status quo.

Change will need time and we already see the results of this change.

And we see that every gain is met with harsh resistance. Y'all on here crying about the left degrading political dialog but a "rightist" was the first person in the history of America to call the president a liar during the State of the Union address.

Affirmative action is not needed anymore.

I'm glad you think so. Would it blow your mind to know that blacks aren't the group seeing the most gains from affirmative action?

And again it will send a message to the people that we have reach equality.

But we haven't. Did you know that all Americans use drugs and get arrested at the same rates, but black people fill the prisons and often receive harsher sentences than their white counterparts? Equality, my ass.

How long do you think black should have an advantage?

When we get it, I'll send you a message in Germany to let you know since you're oh so concerned with the plight of the "majority".

And fuck privilege. poverty is a problem for many people even people who work hardly get by. Do you really believe these people here have white priviellege.

Yup, because a black person in that same line will get a lecture on how blacks are just lazy and need to try harder.

 

[Dunki]

So you think that the people who would deny you a job based on your name still wouldn't deny you a job once they meet you in person? Lol. Ok.

Mistrust well earned though. I've been told, on several occaisions, that I'm "one of the good ones" just because of my skin tone. I've also had my work called into question because, you know... I'm black and I shouldn't know certain things.

Yes this is racism but it is also based on experience people had with a certain group before. And I will be very honest here. I would also not hire you. Not because you are black but because you seem to have a very angry personality and your opinions how racist white people are would be also troublesome for a company but thats just me.

We aren't talking about those statistics though. We're talking about how you present them. You say 50+% of the murders are committed by 13% percent of the population. You don't stop to think that its a silly argument that 13+ million people kill half of 17,000 people out of 325 million people. You state it and move on.

You could argue with this if A this was a pretty low stat which is it not and B when we are talking here about normal people I am talking about how I understand how police officers are more carefully and also more agressive against black people doing their job. Because statistics say you have to.

Then when they get knocked up and have to leave the job force, then what?

Once they retire, the ladies will be off raising their babies and those same men that cry about their rights and their imagined slights on behalf of the crybabies will be in power.

It is your decision to get for example pregnant and get a family. You have to set up priorities you can not have everything you want. You need to take compromises you are an adult now. Whats more important to you? You seem to think that someone leaving their post for a year or more ist not troublesome for the whole company. I am sorry that men can not get pregnant. But I guess biology also was a sexist men who only made women pregnant so men kan keep them down.

Can I get 0 to 100 in 54 years though? It's been 54 years since racism was deemed illegal, yet we've moved what... 10% forward? The electoral college majority want to "Make America Great Again" which means what? Rolling back years of progress so the "majority" is comfortable again with the status quo.

Trump is the result of things like affirmative action. Of people thinking they get treated unfairly because they are white. It is a pushback against identity politics. If you look at social media again you think white people are evil and need to be hold down because of racism.

And we see that every gain is met with harsh resistance. Y'all on here crying about the left degrading political dialog but a "rightist" was the first person in the history of America to call the president a liar during the State of the Union address.

Every gain? What does that even mean. Every gain because of special laws, stiipulations etc. Of course. Since when is discrimination a positive thing?

I'm glad you think so. Would it blow your mind to know that blacks aren't the group seeing the most gains from affirmative action?

So that makes it ok? I do not care if its for black people asian people etc. Affirmative action no matter who recieves it in these countries.

But we haven't. Did you know that all Americans use drugs and get arrested at the same rates, but black people fill the prisons and often receive harsher sentences than their white counterparts? Equality, my ass.

And again.... Where do you think these people live? Poor neighborhoods? Which normally have a much stricter and more agressive "law system" Oh I wonder why... Also I never said its perfect and that work needs to be done but work menas everyone. Again I am all for getting jobs , education etc in these poor neighborhoods but to do this you also need stricter police force.

When we get it, I'll send you a message in Germany to let you know since you're oh so concerned with the plight of the "majority".

I do not even know what this means.....

Yup, because a black person in that same line will get a lecture on how blacks are just lazy and need to try harder.

And white peole get lectures how they should talk what they can and can not say, do act or even think. Tough life

 

[<+)O Robido O(+>]

And I will be very honest here. I would also not hire you. Not because you are black but because you seem to have a very angry personality and your popinions how racist white people are would be also troublesome for a company but thats just me.

Lol. You'd hire me in a heartbeat. I'm not "one of the good ones" for no reason. My mom gave me a white name and I learned how to navigate white America very well.

I am talking about how I understand how police officers are more carefully and also more agressive against black people doing their job. Because statistics say you have to.

Oh, you know that American police force so well? How long have you lived here again?

Trump is the result of things like affirmative action. Of people thinking they get treated unfairly because they are white. It is a pushback against identity politics. If you look at social media again you think white people are evil and need to be hold down because of racism.

You say this like the other side isn't also "identity politics."

Since when is discrimination a positive thing?

When it benefits "the majority." Soon as the shoe is on the other foot, its a problem.

So that makes it ok?

It makes the constant grumbling about affirmative action every time black people are brought up nonsensical.

Where do you think these people live? Poor neighborhoods? Which normally have a much stricter and more agressive "law system" Oh I wonder why... Also I never said its perfect and that work needs to be done but work menas everyone. Again I am all for getting jobs , education etc in these poor neighborhoods but to do this you also need stricter police force.

Lol. I don't even know why you hold so hard to these opinions when you aren't from here. American history will tell you that every time black people take a step forward the "majority" will make sure they have a way to fuck us over. Black people are stuck in these neighborhoods because of a system called redlining. Look it up. Better yet look up "black wall street." Oh wait thats the past. Folks aren't still getting a pass for indiscriminately killing black people in the streets anymore.

I do not even know what this means.....

It means you aren't from here and you like to get your talking points from racists on twitter. Apparently its easier to believe twitter than it is to believe black people who live here. No one would ever post faulty information on twitter, except for feminists and black people I guess.

And white peole get lectures how they should talk what they can and can not say, do act or even think.

Those poor babies. Far be it from them to have to not be racist, they invented the tradition after all.

 

[Dunki]

Lol. You'd hire me in a heartbeat. I'm not "one of the good ones" for no reason. My mom gave me a white name and I learned how to navigate white America very well.

No I would not again I do not care about your name, your skincolor I would care about your personality and given this discussion Its a now go for me because you seem to have serious race issues

Oh, you know that American police force so well? How long have you lived here again?

No I know people well. People's perception are often based on statistics. But maybe they are just all racist since its much easier.

You say this like the other side isn't also "identity politics."

They use identidy politics sure but even Trump goes for nationality not skincolor. You know what the identity politics of the left reminds me of? Of the German facism pre WW2. They also used race as scapegoat for their missfortune. But thats just me.

When it benefits "the majority." Soon as the shoe is on the other foot, its a problem.

This sounds to me like eye for an eye even though its affect people that had nothing to do with it. But keep believing you are on the right side of history.

Lol. I don't even know why you hold so hard to these opinions when you aren't from here. American history will tell you that every time black people take a step forward the "majority" will make sure they have a way to fuck us over. Black people are stuck in these neighborhoods because of a system called redlining. Look it up. Better yet look up "black wall street." Oh wait thats the past. Folks aren't still getting a pass for indiscriminately killing black people in the streets anymore.

I am not from America so my opinion does not count. Ok next silencing argument?

It means you aren't from here and you like to get your talking points from racists on twitter. Apparently its easier to believe twitter than it is to believe black people who live here. No one would ever post faulty information on twitter, except for feminists and black people I guess.

I am not stupid I do not build my opinions of twitter about the world but social media is also a mirror of society and I also believe that Social media is also responsible for the huge toxic atmosphere regarding race in America.

Those poor babies. Far be it from them to have to not be racist, they invented the tradition after all.

They? Who is they white people? Again you have serious race issues and I would reflect you whole life and think about on how racist you right now sound. Just replace everytime you use white people with black people and think if this is an ok sentence to say. But thats just me. But since I am white, I am not from America and I am a straight male you can of course totally dismiss my opinon

But for the sake of the thread we maybe should end this before you get way to angry. Just enjoy your day.

 

[Robot Carnival]

Are you being serious? This has always been a thing, its nothing new at all. I really don't get some of you, do many of you really believe that the world was rainbows and kittens in the past? It was actually WORSE in the past.
.

maybe, but as a 40+ year old guy who lived in Asia and US for multiple years, I can assure you most of the time the people I interacted with has the basic decency. and I'm not saying it's all "rainbows and kittens" in the past, there were bad things back then too, but it sure as hell wasn't as bad as it is today.

 

[TheMikado]

No because people have changed. Other people are in positions now etc. Do you really believe that people would go back to discriminate people without affirmative action? If you actually believe this you have already a very clear generalisation and prejudices of certain people of a certain color.

As I said multiple times already the generations have changed and you can see this in the statistics of 20-30 year olds

And T TheMikado why can you not stop justifying affirmative action with history? It was needed back then yes. No one ever disputed that but now it is not anymore. And to set a sign and a message how we have changed by getting rid of it we have a message of equality. And people who before were cut off their jobs, postitions because of affirmative action are happy too. Do you want to acknowledge that the world has changed or do you want to make people believe that nothing has changed at all?

Affirmative action is a tool of the past not the present or future.

I've already said this multiple times already so I will quote myself multiple times too.

"But I’m not, I said pretty clearly multiple times that affirmative action and if it is still being relevant today is a different discussion that needs to be explored. I was arguing the assertion of Affirmative Action being unequal as whole and was explaining the context of its creation and implementation."

"I’m not advocating or justifying its continued use, I’m defending its place in history for what it has done, not dismissing it as a concept because it may not apply in 2018. That was my point, not whether it should exist now, but what it has done. "

"Again if it should exist now or not is a seperate discussion and most would agree we are at the point where the program is no longer needed to ensure legal protection. "

Again, I'm not sure how many times I need to repeat myself............

 

[TheMikado]

I understand and have sympathy for why affermative action is/was needed. I am just saying that it has unforseen consequences that sometimes may cause harm to those groups it aims
to protect/help.

I am ok not calling "student acceptance thresholds are different between races because policy" affirmative action.
What would you call it then if you don't want to call it affermative action. We have to have a word for it if we are to discus it.
(Though those colleges do refer to it as affirmative action I think. I do not dispute them may use the word wrongly. Bring it up with them and correct their errors)

Regardless of what noun we use to describe the skewing of acceptance criteria based on race, it still leads to the problematic outcome
I describe where it becomes rational to discriminate against race.

We can call it the "asians-needs-a-roadblock" program. It does not change anything in my argument.


Regardless of nomenclature: I try to say that even the best intended "lets discriminate against X to benefit Y" will always have negative side-effects against Y.
Lets not discriminate against anyone, ok?

Again, your understanding of Affirmative Action is totally incorrect which is what I am trying to impart on you.

Affirmative action, also known as reservation in India and Nepal, positive action in the UK, and employment equity (in a narrower context) in Canada and South Africa, is the policy of protecting members of groups that are known to have previously suffered from discrimination.[1][2][3][4] Historically and internationally, support for affirmative action has sought to achieve goals such as bridging inequalities in employment and pay, increasing access to education, promoting diversity, and redressing apparent past wrongs, harms, or hindrances.

Affirmative action by design is to ensure representation among EQUALLY QUALIFIED candidates, not less qualified candidates, that was never its design.
It was designed to ensure that when an equally or more qualified underrepresented group applies for a position that there are mechanisms in place to ensure selection is not based on race.
That is not to say it hasn't been used that way:

Support for affirmative action means support for preferential selection procedures that favor unqualified candidates over qualified candidates.
Actually, most supporters of affirmative action oppose this type of preferential selection. Preferential selection procedures can be ordered along the following continuum:

1. Selection among equally qualified candidates. The mildest form of affirmative action selection occurs when a female or minority candidate is chosen from a pool of equally qualified applicants (e.g., students with identical college entrance scores). Survey research suggests that three-quarters of the public does not see this type of affirmative action as discriminatory (Roper Center for Public Opinion, 1995d).
   
   
2. Selection among comparable candidates. A somewhat stronger form occurs when female or minority candidates are roughly comparable to other candidates (e.g., their college entrance scores are lower, but not by a significant amount). The logic here is similar to the logic of selecting among equally qualified candidates; all that is needed is an understanding that, for example, predictions based on an SAT score of 620 are virtually indistinguishable from predictions based on an SAT score of 630.
   
   
3. Selection among unequal candidates. A still stronger form of affirmative action occurs when qualified female or minority candidates are chosen over candidates whose records are better by a substantial amount.
   
   
4. Selection among qualified and unqualified candidates. The strongest form of preferential selection occurs when unqualified female or minority members are chosen over other candidates who are qualified. Although affirmative action is sometimes mistakenly equated with this form of preferential treatment, federal regulations explicitly prohibit affirmative action programs in which unqualified or unneeded employees are hired (Electronic Code of Federal Regulations, 2011).

Even though these selection procedures occasionally blend into one another (due in part to the difficulty of comparing incommensurable records), a few general observations can be made. First, of the four different procedures, the selection of women and minority members among equal or roughly comparable candidates has the greatest public support, adheres most closely to popular conceptions of fairness, and reduces the chances that affirmative action beneficiaries will be perceived as unqualified or undeserving (Kravitz & Platania, 1993; Nacoste, 1985; Turner & Pratkanis, 1994). Second, the selection of women and minority members among unequal candidates -- used routinely in college admissions -- has deeply divided the nation (with the strongest opposition coming from White males and conservative voters.) And finally, the selection of unqualified candidates is not permitted under federal affirmative action guidelines and should not be equated with legal forms of affirmative action. By distinguishing among these four different selection procedures, it becomes clear that opposition to stronger selection procedures need not imply opposition to milder ones.


This is also why its impossible to have a discussion on affirmative actions worth, because of the core fundamental misunderstandings of what it is, what it does, and what it allows.

I am unsure about college acceptance policy, but in in your example of accepting less qualified candidates this is ILLEGAL and NOT part of affirmative action in the legal sense or in design.

 

[The Scrivener]

If your conversations get off track, pause and restart.

 

[LegendOfKage]

Current generations are raised by the previous generations. Eventually racism will be phased out. But while there are people like you on the internet that attribute the 50% homicide rate to 100% of the 13% committing them they process slows. Todays 20 - 30 year olds aren't in power now, and by the time they get in power their idealism will have turned jaded and they'll be another cog in the machine going along to get along. Perpetuating the current paradigm because it benefits them personally while ignoring the larger social ramifications.

Do you really believe that racism will be eventually phased out? I think you can fight against it, and it can be reduced over time, but I don't think it will ever be phased out, especially in regard to black and white people. It's just too noticeable, and people make too big a deal of it. From plenty of actual racists, to a media that assumes racist intent everywhere, to police who do racially profile, to people who judge all police because of the bad ones, to well-intentioned non-racist people who can't agree how best to fight racism, and then those disagreements lead to even more anger and accusations surrounding the topic.

The interesting thing is skin color isn't even the issue, it's the pre-conceived notions of what that skin color represents, be it "these people are dangerous" to "these people have done awful things to you."



Skin color didn't matter much to the people being talked about here. I would guess it was more an issue of resentment, but I'm open to other interpretations.

The problem is that people are stupidly tribal, with their in-groups and out-groups. We can't even get video game fans to respect one another for their differences in console preference. This was like an Xbox or Sony fan fully prepared to hate or threaten someone for enjoying the opposing console (or perhaps concerned because they knew the likelihood of them being hated or threatened), only to find out that they actually like old Atari games. And what do you do with that? Atari never did anything to you.

So sadly, no. I don't think racism is going anywhere.

I also dealt with my fair share of racism but I even got told that almost did cost me my life was not even racism. Racism is something everyone can experience be it white, black, asian or whatever.

Or Irish, until people realize that you're not "white" apparently. Anecdotal though that may be.

 

[ilfait]

when did being a decent human being towards other human being become so difficult...? it's now such an alien concept that they need a special session just to teach people to do it? and I'm not even talking about being nice or generous, just treat people the way you want to be treated.

Shut up ugly.

 

[TarNaru33]

maybe, but as a 40+ year old guy who lived in Asia and US for multiple years, I can assure you most of the time the people I interacted with has the basic decency. and I'm not saying it's all "rainbows and kittens" in the past, there were bad things back then too, but it sure as hell wasn't as bad as it is today.

Well yeah, because it was actually WORSE I state again in the past.. The only difference, is it get a lot more exposure to where anyone and everyone can easily see the extreme of it on a daily basis whether they seek it or not.

 

[llien]

Not everyone that is "racist" is an aggressive racist, some just don't think what they do or say is racist or have consequences and have chances of being educated.

And that "other, kinda non racist, but there are people who claim it actually is racist" is one of the most wonderful inventions of the "diversity" industry. The "cultural appropriation" in particular.

 

[TarNaru33]

And that "other, kinda non racist, but there are people who claim it actually is racist" is one of the most wonderful inventions of the "diversity" industry. The "cultural appropriation" in particular.

Interesting post to make in response.

 

[EviLore]

Can we talk with each other directly?

 

[llien]

Interesting post to make in response.

In case you didn't get what I was trying to say: redefining what is racist by wildly broadening the meaning of the word, finding more and more nuanced ways to how things "offend" people, has nothing to do with what normal people mean when they say "racist", nor with the racism that is supposed to be tackled by this programs.

 

[Greedings]

I think the a serious worry about broadening the definition of "racist" and calling everyone racist for even minor deviations from the groupthink will result in people just saying "Ok, I'm racist."

This isn't what we want. If you normalise being racist by attacking people over petty things, then they will just accept the label.

 

[BANGS]

I think the a serious worry about broadening the definition of "racist" and calling everyone racist for even minor deviations from the groupthink will result in people just saying "Ok, I'm racist."

This isn't what we want. If you normalise being racist by attacking people over petty things, then they will just accept the label.

Don't you realize? That's their endgame. That's exactly their goal. They don't want us to change, they just want to be able to be put on a pedestal above us because we're just disgusting racists...

 

[TarNaru33]

In case you didn't get what I was trying to say: redefining what is racist by wildly broadening the meaning of the word, finding more and more nuanced ways to how things "offend" people, has nothing to do with what normal people mean when they say "racist", nor with the racism that is supposed to be tackled by this programs.

No, I got what you were trying to say, I think its just stupid and decided not to give a response is all.

It was not broadened, they are more ignorant than racist and can learn unlike the majority of those who are aggressively racist. If you don't understand that, then that is on you.

 

[Texas Pride]

I actually think being color blind is the way to be. Treat everyone the same without going out of your way to treat everyone special. But that's just me.

 

[LordPezix]

when did being a decent human being towards other human being become so difficult...? it's now such an alien concept that they need a special session just to teach people to do it? and I'm not even talking about being nice or generous, just treat people the way you want to be treated.

I think it's only an American thing.

America is stupid weird these days.

 

[<+)O Robido O(+>]

No I would not again I do not care about your name, your skincolor I would care about your personality and given this discussion Its a now go for me because you seem to have serious race issues

Your first mistake is assuming I don't know how to interact with white people in a professional setting. I haven't been in my position for over a decade without knowing how to make myself indispensable and ingratiating to my white coworkers.

This sounds to me like eye for an eye even though its affect people that had nothing to do with it.

Sure they have nothing to do with what happened then, but why do they turn a blind eye to whats happening now? You think black people being overrepresented in prisons happens by accident?

I am not from America so my opinion does not count.

Yup.

I also believe that Social media is also responsible for the huge toxic atmosphere regarding race in America.

Then you haven't been paying attention.

Again you have serious race issues and I would reflect you whole life and think about on how racist you right now sound.

Lol. My whole life has been spent in Texas. Idk if you see how people denigrate Texas, but its not for no reason.

But thats just me. But since I am white, I am not from America and I am a straight male you can of course totally dismiss my opinion.

I can. Just like you would be in the right to dismiss my opinion about German politics because of some shit I read on the internet. I don't live in Germany and if I were to believe the loudest voices on twitter and form an opinion about Germany based on that you'd be 100% in the right to correct me on that. Do I think that all Turkish citizens are all shit because Dunki on neogaf got bullied? No. But do I discount Dunki's experience based on what he says about the Turkish based on his posts on neogaf? YUP! Why? Because Germany doesn't have hundreds of years of Turkish aggression to fall back on to form his opinion on.

Whereas I, as a black person, can use my opinion of actions taken by white people in 2018 and point back at hundreds of years to white people being unyeildingly shitty to black people in the United States of America for reinforce my position.

 

[Dunki]

Your first mistake is assuming I don't know how to interact with white people in a professional setting. I haven't been in my position for over a decade without knowing how to make myself indispensable and ingratiating to my white coworkers.

Sure they have nothing to do with what happened then, but why do they turn a blind eye to whats happening now? You think black people being overrepresented in prisons happens by accident?

Yup.

Then you haven't been paying attention.

Lol. My whole life has been spent in Texas. Idk if you see how people denigrate Texas, but its not for no reason.

I can. Just like you would be in the right to dismiss my opinion about German politics because of some shit I read on the internet. I don't live in Germany and if I were to believe the loudest voices on twitter and form an opinion about Germany based on that you'd be 100% in the right to correct me on that. Do I think that all Turkish citizens are all shit because Dunki on neogaf got bullied? No. But do I discount Dunki's experience based on what he says about the Turkish based on his posts on neogaf? YUP! Why? Because Germany doesn't have hundreds of years of Turkish aggression to fall back on to form his opinion on.

Whereas I, as a black person, can use my opinion of actions taken by white people in 2018 and point back at hundreds of years to white people being unyeildingly shitty to black people in the United States of America for reinforce my position.

I love how you differentiate between white and black people in terms how you interact with the, I treat everyone the same but I am the ignorant one. And white people turn a eye on what is happening with black people? Seriously? And I will say it again to change these prison statistics etc you need fight the cause and that is not racism like you would love to but mostly poverty. People living in poor neighboords have a higher possibility of criminal acts. When you have no future aka education, job etc you have a higher risk to become criminal. It is not the evil white cops sitting in their car thinking (oh look a black guy lets get him into prison). But to make more education and jobs in these areas available you need a stricter policeforce to fight gangs, and other criminial acts.

And lasty Do I read this right that you are thinking that me getting threaten by a knife is justified because the people who were mostly even born in Germany are in their 2nd or sometimes 3rd generation were oppressed?Her you fucking serious? Further more I have NEVER said all turks I am saying these people I had contact with. The problem I in general have with Turks living in Germany is that the majority (over 60%) are for a person (Erdogan) who can litterally become Hitler 2. He is already on the move to exterminate Kurdish people.

Lastly I think you can not even think in a somehow objective way because you are angry and upset. You led out a real sense of racism against white people and I do not think that this reinforces your opinion. You can state them for sure but since it is terrible biased I do not think that it will help this conversation at all. And again not because you are black but because you seem to lost a general sense of objectivity.

It would probably the same with me and modern Feminism I am heavily biased so a concrete discussion about this topic would lead to share my opinion but in a spiritful conversation I would be too biased

 

[llien]

It was not broadened, they are more ignorant than racist and can learn unlike the majority of those who are aggressively racist. If you don't understand that, then that is on you.

The kinds of "racism" detected by people specializing in detecting misdoings of other people and often offering help such as "training", went far beyond what common sense suggests is reasonable, "cultural appropriation" in particular.

So, yes, you can invent new standards (e.g. "wearing 3 types of cloth at the same time is offensive") then teach "stupid ignorant people" not to do it (something that actually happened in human history) and even have measurable progress in questionnaires made by those, setting the new standards.

 

[strange headache]

EDIT:

Here used to be lengthy, personal and respectful message that tried to span bridges trough the common history of human struggle in order to cultivate meaningful discussion. Unfortunately some people just can't extend the same respect to the history of others that they seek to demand for themselves. Hence why I decided to scrap this message, because it's just not worth it.

Instead, you can have a cute picture of a kitten and an owlet. Even though they cannot be more different, even they manage to get along.

 

[<+)O Robido O(+>]

I love how you differentiate between white and black people in terms how you interact with them.

Of course I do. Doesn't everyone? I don't talk at home the same way I talk at work. I don't speak to close family the same way I would to distant family. Same for close friends and associates.

Code switching: Both in popular usage and in sociolinguistic study, the name code-switching is sometimes used to refer to switching among dialects, styles or registers. This form of switching is practiced, for example, by speakers of African American Vernacular English as they move from less formal to more formal settings.

And white people turn a eye on what is happening with black people? Seriously?

Yup!

Lastly I think you can not even think in a somehow objective way because you are angry and upset.

lol. I am neither. I see the situation for what it is and I move on. Life is too short.

Well then don't expect me to believe that white people are inherently racist because somebody got kicked out of Starbucks.

lol.

If you cannot show empathy or understanding for the experiences of others, don't expect said empathy or understanding to be returned.

I don't.

And I, as a European, can point <snip>

Neat.

Because when you speak, your words are full of resentment and anger,

lol. This again. Not angry or resentful. I see the situation for what it is, shrug, and keep it moving. I might drop a couple sentences about here, but that's only when I'm bored at work or drunk. Sorry if I gave you and Dunki the impression that I'm some internet blacktivist. Nope. Just bored.

Your words ring true, but your message is one of defeat and not of inspiration.

lol. I don't have a message. Just bored.

 

[strange headache]

Yup!


lol. I am neither. I see the situation for what it is and I move on. Life is too short.

lol.

I don't.

Neat.

lol. This again. Not angry or resentful. I see the situation for what it is, shrug, and keep it moving. I might drop a couple sentences about here, but that's only when I'm bored at work or drunk. Sorry if I gave you and Dunki the impression that I'm some internet blacktivist. Nope. Just bored.


lol. I don't have a message. Just bored.

So basically, you're just a troll. Alrighty then.

 

[<+)O Robido O(+>]

So basically, you're just a troll. Alrighty then.

No more so than BANGS, TrainedRage or that one guy with the MAGA hat/gun avatar. I believe what I'm saying. I just don't have it in me to type up an essay every time I want to post something.

 

[BANGS]

No more so than BANGS

That would be impossible

 

[Dunki]

Of course I do. Doesn't everyone? I don't talk at home the same way I talk at work. I don't speak to close family the same way I would to distant family. Same for close friends and associates.

Code switching: Both in popular usage and in sociolinguistic study, the name code-switching is sometimes used to refer to switching among dialects, styles or registers. This form of switching is practiced, for example, by speakers of African American Vernacular English as they move from less formal to more formal settings.

.

You do not talk with family friends, coworkers the same way because of your social relationship with them and not because they are white or black. Would I talk to a stranger like I would talk to a friend? Of course not. But I will not base this on his/her skincolor or gender.

 

[BANGS]

You do not talk with family friends, coworkers the same way because of your social relationship with them and not because they are white or black. Would I talk to a stranger like I would talk to a friend? Of course not. But I will not base this on his/her skincolor or gender.

Believe it or not it's pretty common practice, sometimes people don't even realize it. Most people talk differently to people who talk differently. It's not a racism thing or anything like that, your brain automatically thinks you will communicate better with someone if you talk more like them...

 

[Dunki]

Believe it or not it's pretty common practice, sometimes people don't even realize it. Most people talk differently to people who talk differently. It's not a racism thing or anything like that, your brain automatically thinks you will communicate better with someone if you talk more like them...

Then we would be at the stereotype that you know when a black person talks compared to a white person. Like the good old "you do not sound like a black person" To me speech has something to do with your social status not with your skin color

 

[Robot Carnival]

Shut up ugly.

welp, you got me there lol

Well yeah, because it was actually WORSE I state again in the past.. The only difference, is it get a lot more exposure to where anyone and everyone can easily see the extreme of it on a daily basis whether they seek it or not.

the extra exposure part I definitely agree with, but I think another thing is that the whole teaching manner and proper behavior in a social setting had been going the ways of the Dodos. a lot of the parents now a days (not just in US either, mind you) are not doing it to their kids.

I think it's only an American thing.

America is stupid weird these days.

na, I mean the US is one of the biggest offender of course, but in a lot of Asian countries the situation is the same now a days.

 

[strange headache]

I believe what I'm saying. I just don't have it in me to type up an essay every time I want to post something.

Looks more like you have no actual arguments to reply with so you're now hiding behind your sh*tty comments. Kinda sad if you ask me.

 

[<+)O Robido O(+>]

Looks more like you have no actual arguments to reply with so you're now hiding behind your sh*tty comments. Kinda sad if you ask me.

Cool.

 

[BANGS]

Then we would be at the stereotype that you know when a black person talks compared to a white person. Like the good old "you do not sound like a black person" To me speech has something to do with your social status not with your skin color

I don't think it has to do with either. You change your dialect based on how they talk to you, not based on how they look alone... It just so happens that certain groups talk similarly...

 

[Phoenix RISING]

I believe what I'm saying. I just don't have it in me to type up an essay every time I want to post something.

You're catching on. I am proud.