• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

"Be Color Brave, not Color Blind": Starbucks Racial Sensitivity Training Exit Interviews

You're catching on. I am proud.

Is this the kind of trolling and low effort drive-by sh*tposting that we're supporting now? I tried to formulate a respectful and honest message to <+)O Robido O(+> <+)O Robido O(+> in order to have a meaningful discussion. While I don't expect others to reply in an equally lengthy manner, I certainly don't need childish bullcr*p like that.
 
Last edited:

EviLore

Expansive Ellipses
Staff Member
Fundamental disconnect we're seeing in the discussion over the last page: Americans vs non-Americans. Everyone's trying to understand each other, though. Phoenix RISING Phoenix RISING , participate or leave. Don't pretend you're barely suffering being here on a whim during work. Like we've talked about before: you're a good contributor here when you cut the crap and allow yourself to be honest and put some time in to contribute. Whenever that's not happening, though, you're a shitposter. Pick one. I'd much rather have Phoenix RISING Phoenix RISING the good contributor.

Be a voice here. :goog_mad::goog_love:

Edit: it's also understandable to not have an essay on-hand for every bit of social commentary. strange headache strange headache and D Dunki et al tend to go big and wrap their positions in comprehensive posts and demand the same from the people they engage in. Not everyone has the time to respond in kind or the practice at foruming to battle it out like that. Hell, some people are posting on mobile for that matter.

The "black experience" in the United States is a real thing, I can assure you. Having to "act white" is a real thing. Black women not being able to wear their natural hair in professional environments is real. People with black sounding names get hired less on resumes: real. There are serious issues we face off with in the United States that are as foreign to most Euros as the idea of eating a baguette with some cheese and wine in the park for lunch is to most Muricuhs. Let's just dial it back a notch or two in general and focus on understanding each other better.
 
Last edited:
For the sake of transparency, I'd like to inform that I've removed my post.

Fundamental disconnect we're seeing in the discussion over the last page: Americans vs non-Americans.

In fact I tried to cultivate mutual understanding through the shared suffering of our ancestors. In no way did I diminish from the long history of oppression of black people, in fact I even fully acknowledged it. But the respect of each others past is a bilateral principle.

strange headache strange headache and D Dunki et al tend to go big and wrap their positions in comprehensive posts and demand the same from the people they engage in. Not everyone has the time to respond in kind or the practice at foruming to battle it out like that. Hell, some people are posting on mobile for that matter.

Complex issues require complex answers. My posts are often lengthy but for the sake of clarity and context I'm sorry that I cannot make them any shorter. I don't expect the same of others, but simply going "lol, I'm bored" is not something that I find acceptable. I don't do that when going into a topic about black slavery either and I expect the same of others.
 
Last edited:

EviLore

Expansive Ellipses
Staff Member
For the sake of transparency, I'd like to inform that I've removed my post.



In fact I tried to cultivate mutual understanding through the shared suffering of our ancestors. In no way did I diminish from the long history of oppression of black people, in fact I even fully acknowledged it. But the respect of each others past is a bilateral principle.



Complex issues require complex answers. My posts are often lengthy but for the sake of clarity and context I'm sorry that I cannot make them any shorter. I don't expect the same of others, but simply going "lol, I'm bored" is not something that I find acceptable. I don't do that when going into a topic about black slavery either and I expect the same of others.

If possible, please don't delete your post and exit the discussion that way. You're within your rights to of course, but everything was cool by and large and your post was not a problem at all.

The main advice I can give is to consider how you engage with other people here. It can get intense when you lay things down and then mic drop at the end, demanding others step up to your level and get a little personal etc. It can discourage engagement rather than encourage it. I think all of us appreciate your long format posts and what you add to discussion here. My intention is to keep the dialogue open on all sides.
 
Fundamental disconnect we're seeing in the discussion over the last page: Americans vs non-Americans. Everyone's trying to understand each other, though. Phoenix RISING Phoenix RISING , participate or leave. Don't pretend you're barely suffering being here on a whim during work. Like we've talked about before: you're a good contributor here when you cut the crap and allow yourself to be honest and put some time in to contribute. Whenever that's not happening, though, you're a shitposter. Pick one. I'd much rather have Phoenix RISING Phoenix RISING the good contributor.

Be a voice here. :goog_mad::goog_love:

Edit: it's also understandable to not have an essay on-hand for every bit of social commentary. strange headache strange headache and D Dunki et al tend to go big and wrap their positions in comprehensive posts and demand the same from the people they engage in. Not everyone has the time to respond in kind or the practice at foruming to battle it out like that. Hell, some people are posting on mobile for that matter.

The "black experience" in the United States is a real thing, I can assure you. Having to "act white" is a real thing. Black women not being able to wear their natural hair in professional environments is real. People with black sounding names get hired less on resumes: real. There are serious issues we face off with in the United States that are as foreign to most Euros as the idea of eating a baguette with some cheese and wine in the park for lunch is to most Muricuhs. Let's just dial it back a notch or two in general and focus on understanding each other better.

Your first post didn't warrant a response, but your edit does.

When one enters a topic concerning phenomena taking place in America, it becomes exhausting having to remind and frequently defend what happens during the black experience. I acknowledge that there are some individuals who do not come from a frame of reference such that they are disadvantaged when entering a discourse such as race relations in the United States. But I refuse to believe that there are people who will enter a thread such as this one while either pretending that they are completely ignorant of the struggle. Worse, they will enter while knowing of these problems, yet ignoring them, while providing "solutions" that, even in 700 words, can be summarized as "suck it up, buttercup" and other bootstrap-pulling language.

Like, that's old, man. If you are aware of the black experience, you know good and darn well that it's a tactic deployed to minimize the struggle. And that is why I respond in the way that I do. Ain't nobody got time for strawmen and begging the question.

When I created this thread, the intent was to focus on Starbucks' methodology in their training, rather than discuss whether or not the training has merit at all; we had a whole month in a previous thread to hash that out.

I will not apologize for refusing to entertain that foolishness. The conversation got derailed, and I have not had the time to get it back on track yet. It has been an eventful week for me off GAF. I intend on interrogating the entire training curriculum.
 
In fact I tried to cultivate mutual understanding through the shared suffering of our ancestors.
Ok, it might be the jaded lurker in me but it read more like the beginnings of a "my people have had it rough too and WE managed to get over it" thing you read on message boards around the world. That being said, I can accept that my bias took me there.
In no way did I diminish from the long history of oppression of black people, in fact I even fully acknowledged it.
You did, I can agree with that. But you also kinda told me I was taking the wrong lessons from history when a bunch of that "historical" shit is still happening.
but simply going "lol, I'm bored" is not something that I find acceptable.
To be honest, I've seen pages and pages of you and TheMikado going back and forth with those long posts and I really didn't feel like engaging with any long posts directed at me. I try to keep everything brief because I tend to veer towards personal attacks when I get wordy.
 

EviLore

Expansive Ellipses
Staff Member
Your first post didn't warrant a response, but your edit does.

When one enters a topic concerning phenomena taking place in America, it becomes exhausting having to remind and frequently defend what happens during the black experience. I acknowledge that there are some individuals who do not come from a frame of reference such that they are disadvantaged when entering a discourse such as race relations in the United States. But I refuse to believe that there are people who will enter a thread such as this one while either pretending that they are completely ignorant of the struggle. Worse, they will enter while knowing of these problems, yet ignoring them, while providing "solutions" that, even in 700 words, can be summarized as "suck it up, buttercup" and other bootstrap-pulling language.

Like, that's old, man. If you are aware of the black experience, you know good and darn well that it's a tactic deployed to minimize the struggle. And that is why I respond in the way that I do. Ain't nobody got time for strawmen and begging the question.

When I created this thread, the intent was to focus on Starbucks' methodology in their training, rather than discuss whether or not the training has merit at all; we had a whole month in a previous thread to hash that out.

I will not apologize for refusing to entertain that foolishness. The conversation got derailed, and I have not had the time to get it back on track yet. It has been an eventful week for me off GAF. I intend on interrogating the entire training curriculum.

GAF was already majority non-American last year, but now it's skewing even more so that way. You gotta keep in mind that a lot of the people in this thread aren't using those tactics in those ways. They're Europeans with a genuinely different take on things and both sides of the argument in this thread are failing to account for that all the way. I'm not asking you to apologize and I'm not demanding all your real life time.

The main line I thought you crossed earlier in the thread was encouraging <+)O Robido O(+> <+)O Robido O(+> to step out or keep his mouth shut or whatever along those lines. That's disrespectful to the people engaging in earnest -- not disingenuously -- with their own time, and it's suggesting that <+)O Robido O(+> <+)O Robido O(+> 's time and text is being wasted. I'm calling bullshit on all of that.

A lot on the internet could be solved right now if we just stopped seeing other people as speaking disingenuously. I mean, a shitload of people *are*, haha, but I have a pretty good eye for it and I don't think the folks here are. Let's act that way.
 

Greedings

Member
Can someone explain to me why being colour blind is a bad thing?

I just don't really get this new approach. I thought the whole point of equality is that we should treat everyone equally, no matter their skin/genitals/sexuality.
 

Dunki

Member
One Quick note I would never not acknowledge the so called Black experience in America it isi something you will face everywhere on the world when you are .a minority. Best other example would be Chinese in Japan. But I just can not accept that everything is because of racism. For example I see way more problems in terms of classism and poverty which has lead to the problems black people have financially. If you are in this circle it is really hard to get out. And that is why I would pledge for more education and job opportunities in these areas but also more police presence so we can also get rid of the troulemakers on the street. Aka Gangs drugs (not weed) etc.

I think we when we talk about these issues we need a certain middle ground and as watching from far this middle ground has been lost in most conversations about social issues. I also do not believe that it is systemic racism but done by fewer and fewer people because the old generation who were taught to never trust black people etc is dying. But to archive harmony black people also need to look less angry and upset when confronting white people of this generation.
The vast majority wants racism to end but everyone has different ways to get to this point. And that why I pledge for more understanding not shouting people down or ridicule them because they have different opinion than you

Also I think this video is pretty bad. I would rather go with this approach



It is not about race but about disability and ho different children and adults react to it. Children are not racist or angry at white people our society is corrupting them on both ways and we need to find ways to stop it.
 
Last edited:
If possible, please don't delete your post and exit the discussion that way. You're within your rights to of course, but everything was cool by and large and your post was not a problem at all.

Please tell that Phoenix RISING Phoenix RISING because judging by his reply my post was not welcomed in his topic. If all he took away from my original message was "suck it up, buttercup" then it is quite evident that he's not at all interested in discussion, but to create a monologue where he can revel in his 'black experience' with people silently nodding along. I operate on the principle of reciprocity, and if he demands respect for his history, he should extend the same courtesy to others. I cherish my past as much as he does and I do not let other people take a dump on the sacrifices brought forth by my ancestors.

He wants this topic to be about "Starbucks' methodology in their training" in order to "discuss whether or not the training has merit at all". From my point of view, my comment was on point, because it did exactly that. Maybe I wouldn't involve myself if this was merely a question that applies to the specific context of American culture and history, but considering the fact that Starbucks' seeks to globally export these ideological and political views through American corporatism, I do feel concerned about this.



To treat everybody equal regardless their racial identity is a cornerstone of European multiculturalism. Starbucks' trying to inject racially motivated identity politics under the guise of 'diversity' into the cultural DNA of other countries that have not the same history as the U.S. will not only be incredibly detrimental to their social cohesion but also not jive well with European people and their values.

Ok, it might be the jaded lurker in me but it read more like the beginnings of a "my people have had it rough too and WE managed to get over it" thing you read on message boards around the world. That being said, I can accept that my bias took me there.

Thanks for this heartfelt comment, it's all good. I'm aware that these discussions are quite sensitive and considering your history I value this honest reply. I just want you to know that people like D Dunki or me are not here to ridicule your historical past or to diminish racial discrimination. We are not your opposition and although I don't want to put words into Dunki's mouth, we sympathize with the merits and importance of your struggles against inequality.

You did, I can agree with that. But you also kinda told me I was taking the wrong lessons from history when a bunch of that "historical" shit is still happening.

That's not what I wanted to convey at all, inequality and racial discrimination is not a thing of the past. If that wasn't somehow clear enough in my post, I apologize. I just view the message through which you try to convey this to be somewhat antithetical to the goals you're trying to achieve. To many people who are otherwise sympathetic to your cause, it is often perceived as a message of historical defeatism and division through racial identity, rather than of inspiration and unison.

I take the same issue with Starbucks' approach and their blatant attack on color blindness.
 
Last edited:

BLAUcopter

Gold Member
Let's not let this forum turn back into what it was before the split. I feel like GAF has become a place where we can talk openly about ideas, thoughts and feelings on matters without having to be instantly jumped on or abused.

It's why that "other place" is so toxic for anyone who doesn't think the same way they do. Group think mentally is fucking bonkers.
 

Greedings

Member
As someone who grew up in the UK, and now lives in Germany, I have to echo this sentiment.

?????

There are black women and even white women (CULTURAL APPROPRIATION!) wearing black-style hair in every place I've worked.
I think this is why I often find it difficult to understand these things, America is so fucked.
 

Dunki

Member
As someone who grew up in the UK, and now lives in Germany, I have to echo this sentiment.

?????

There are black women and even white women (CULTURAL APPROPRIATION!) wearing black-style hair in every place I've worked.
I think this is why I often find it difficult to understand these things, America is so fucked.
Maybe that is also he reason why I find the concept of Cultural Appropriation utterly stupid. When I walk around Karneval with my Native American headdress.
 

BANGS

Banned
Suggesting I learn about the world via fucking HuffPo? Uncalled for escalation.
The "black experience" in the United States is a real thing, I can assure you. Having to "act white" is a real thing. Black women not being able to wear their natural hair in professional environments is real. People with black sounding names get hired less on resumes: real.
What the shit? This is some Huffpo nonsense. Nobody has to "act white" or change their hairstyle or name to get a job. The resume nonsense was debunked. You just have to act like a professional. Not a white professional, just professional.

What do you think "acting white" even is? How does one act white? Please explain how that even works. How would you "act black" if asked to do so?
 

Greedings

Member
There's a transcript on page 8 of the .pdf

https://dcl24jcpeau8t.cloudfront.net/media/channel/2018/05/30/sbux_team_guidebook-5_30.pdf

I think there are transcripts for every in this .pdf for the hearing impaired. I'll add it to the OP.

I'm not being difficult, but he didn't really say anything. All I got from that is pretending to not notice race doesn't make sense.
Why doesn't it make sense? Treating people the same irrelevant of their race makes complete sense to me. Instead of saying "you're black, therefore you're like this" or "you're white, therefore you're like this" which is gross over simplifications and broad statements, I think it's better to ignore a person's race and judge them on how they act, and what they say.
 

NickFire

Member
Worse, they will enter while knowing of these problems, yet ignoring them, while providing "solutions" that, even in 700 words, can be summarized as "suck it up, buttercup" and other bootstrap-pulling language.

Like, that's old, man. If you are aware of the black experience, you know good and darn well that it's a tactic deployed to minimize the struggle. And that is why I respond in the way that I do. Ain't nobody got time for strawmen and begging the question.

Are you saying that you disregard individual opinions because you know good darn and well that the expression of certain opinions is really just a nefarious tactic of a larger group of people with the same racial background?
 
I'm not being difficult, but he didn't really say anything. All I got from that is pretending to not notice race doesn't make sense.
Why doesn't it make sense? Treating people the same irrelevant of their race makes complete sense to me. Instead of saying "you're black, therefore you're like this" or "you're white, therefore you're like this" which is gross over simplifications and broad statements, I think it's better to ignore a person's race and judge them on how they act, and what they say.

There are twenty parts to the training. This is only video two. The answers to your questions may lie in other videos.

For example, this video emphasizes embracing people based upon how they are different, rather than how they are the same.

 

Dunki

Member
There are twenty parts to the training. This is only video two. The answers to your questions may lie in other videos.

For example, this video emphasizes embracing people based upon how they are different, rather than how they are the same.

Yes everyone is different but if you identify by your skin color you are not different you are black. You are not Dunki, you are not Mikado you are not Phoenix you are a black person. And this is were I have my problems with. I do not see everyone the same in terms of a collective. I just do not judge a person based on his gender or race because this is something they had no influence in this is not them this is what they are born with. Being black is not your personality. It is not your life being black or white is just the color your skin is and nothing else.
 
Last edited:
The next video is good. It is a roundtable of sorts.


It begins with explicit bias (example: Westboro invading funerals of dead soldiers, "God hates [gay slur]") and implicit bias (subconscious ways in which stereotypes, etc manifest outwardly, such as remembering to check the locks on your doors when at a stop light and a homeless person is on the corner; that person is not necessarily a threat, but we are subconsciously trained to be wary of "suspicious persons")

This video answers the question as to why color blindness is problematic, too. It is literally impossible for the brain to process people who are visually different as the same.

This video has the views participate in the Stroop Test. To demonstrate how our brains process difference.

Video address the concept of racial anxiety is the body's stress response to interacting with people who are racially different.

Starbucks' position is that if people feel that they are being othered due to explicit or implicit bias of employees, that's bad for business.
 

Dunki

Member
The next video is good. It is a roundtable of sorts.


It begins with explicit bias (example: Westboro invading funerals of dead soldiers, "God hates [gay slur]") and implicit bias (subconscious ways in which stereotypes, etc manifest outwardly, such as remembering to check the locks on your doors when at a stop light and a homeless person is on the corner; that person is not necessarily a threat, but we are subconsciously trained to be wary of "suspicious persons")

This video answers the question as to why color blindness is problematic, too. It is literally impossible for the brain to process people who are visually different as the same.

This video has the views participate in the Stroop Test. To demonstrate how our brains process difference.

Video address the concept of racial anxiety is the body's stress response to interacting with people who are racially different.

Starbucks' position is that if people feel that they are being othered due to explicit or implicit bias of employees, that's bad for business.

If you watched my video You can see that kids do not have this because they are not corrupted yet. So yes if you talk about race all the time even to little children you are more aware of it and will act differently so do you want to be treated differently or the same as others? In terms of awareness. Should I respect you more because you are black? Should I be more sensitive because you are black? I am sorry but I will not do that. Another example my niece is spastika and the thing she hates the most is if people treat her differently and why do people do this? Because of the same thinking you want people to have regarding black people
 
Last edited:

Greedings

Member
There are twenty parts to the training. This is only video two. The answers to your questions may lie in other videos.

For example, this video emphasizes embracing people based upon how they are different, rather than how they are the same.

I completely agree with what the guy is saying - when someone is different from you, it's interesting. I work in an incredibly international environment, tons of people from different European countries, Asian and a couple of African countries. When we chat outside of professional conversations, we discuss their countries and their cultures. I discuss my country and culture because I'm also a foreigner. It's interesting! Granted, some people never progress past the "In my country we do it like X" so it gets tedious, but that's normally them just being shy.

However, I don't see what that has to do with race. When I hear what life is like in Denmark, India, Slovenia or Egypt, I'm not thinking about the person's colour, I am listening to what they say.

I find many of the opinions of the Indian and Pakistani guys distasteful, but not because they're brown, it's because their opinions are dumb. For example, telling me and my colleagues that drinking one beer will make them addicted like all the westerners. They come from a country where alcohol is frowned upon, I get it, but so do the Egyptian guy and girl. The Egyptians don't judge like that. They say "enjoy", but do not partake.

This is maybe a silly example, but it points to how the colour is irrelevant (I am being colour blind) it's the actions and words that are important.

Again, when seeing how Americans deal with things, I can't help but be shocked at how you all became the wealthiest and most culturally dominant country. Fucking Europeans constantly fighting.

I should be clear: the problem with it being an American thing, is because you lot have such strong cultural influence, this bullshit has made its way over. Having to listen to black academics talk about slavery IN THE UK where black slavery on the island was never a thing, just screams of idiocy. Hell, Chinese slaves were more of a thing on the island than black slaves.
This American issue needs to stay in America. Lock it up and deal with it yourself. It's not our issue.
 
Last edited:

tkscz

Member
when did being a decent human being towards other human being become so difficult...? it's now such an alien concept that they need a special session just to teach people to do it? and I'm not even talking about being nice or generous, just treat people the way you want to be treated.

Have you not looked at human history? It has ALWAYS been difficult to be a decent human being towards other human beings. Humanity fears and hates itself to the point of self destruction. Everyone will find a reason to hate another human to the point where they want to kill them. At this point, I've just accepted as human nature. It's one of those sad but true things.
 
One powerful aspect of diversity is temporarily halting your opinion, to listen to anothers. This increases diverse thinking. Don't let yourself get in the way of understanding.


Diverse thinking is the name of the game for every corporation. Not just racial or gender diversity, but it goes all of the way down to how good you are at listening.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

BANGS

Banned
One powerful aspect of diversity is temporarily halting your opinion, to listen to anothers. This increases diverse thinking. Don't let yourself get in the way of understanding.


Diverse thinking is the name of the game for every corporation. Not just racial or gender diversity, but it goes all of the way down to how good you are at listening.
Everything in moderation. Listening too much can leave you brainwashed and voiceless...
 

Dunki

Member
One powerful aspect of diversity is temporarily halting your opinion, to listen to anothers. This increases diverse thinking. Don't let yourself get in the way of understanding.


Diverse thinking is the name of the game for every corporation. Not just racial or gender diversity, but it goes all of the way down to how good you are at listening.
It should not be listening and just agree though. It should be talk to eachother not only listen
 
I completely agree with what the guy is saying - when someone is different from you, it's interesting. I work in an incredibly international environment, tons of people from different European countries, Asian and a couple of African countries. When we chat outside of professional conversations, we discuss their countries and their cultures. I discuss my country and culture because I'm also a foreigner. It's interesting! Granted, some people never progress past the "In my country we do it like X" so it gets tedious, but that's normally them just being shy.

However, I don't see what that has to do with race. When I hear what life is like in Denmark, India, Slovenia or Egypt, I'm not thinking about the person's colour, I am listening to what they say.

I find many of the opinions of the Indian and Pakistani guys distasteful, but not because they're brown, it's because their opinions are dumb. For example, telling me and my colleagues that drinking one beer will make them addicted like all the westerners. They come from a country where alcohol is frowned upon, I get it, but so do the Egyptian guy and girl. The Egyptians don't judge like that. They say "enjoy", but do not partake.

This is maybe a silly example, but it points to how the colour is irrelevant (I am being colour blind) it's the actions and words that are important.

Again, when seeing how Americans deal with things, I can't help but be shocked at how you all became the wealthiest and most culturally dominant country. Fucking Europeans constantly fighting.

I should be clear: the problem with it being an American thing, is because you lot have such strong cultural influence, this bull**** has made its way over. Having to listen to black academics talk about slavery IN THE UK where black slavery on the island was never a thing, just screams of idiocy. Hell, Chinese slaves were more of a thing on the island than black slaves.
This American issue needs to stay in America. Lock it up and deal with it yourself. It's not our issue.

The foundation of the United States was built upon the economic prowess of Southern cotton, courtesy of the labor of slaves imported from Africa, whose bondage was justified via claims of paganism, uncouthness, savagery, indolence, and so on.

Even after slavery, those labels remained or transformed. The sexual virility of a male slave that you wanted to impregnate women slaves (because importing slaves became illegal) is now a threat to white chastity. Anti-miscegenation laws were passed. Segregation became the law of the land. My in-laws actually saw MLK deliver speeches. They currently live in Selma, where Bloody Sunday took place.

America is currently under duress from the reverberation of electing the nation's first black president. The response is being felt globally.

White people are afraid of becoming the minority. This is not a problem in European countries.

Diversity is seen as a threat, which leads to nationalism. Even misguided.

For your country, diversity might be seen as an innocuous diversion. A trifle.

Here in the states, it's a threat to hegemony, and we are approaching critical mass...again.
 

Dunki

Member
White people are afraid of becoming the minority. This is not a problem in European countries.

Diversity is seen as a threat, which leads to nationalism. Even misguided.

For your country, diversity might be seen as an innocuous diversion. A trifle.

Here in the states, it's a threat to hegemony, and we are approaching critical mass...again.

Yes this is a huge problem in European countries. Why do you think the right raises more and more in Power here? For example this is the current immigration percentage in German states

DWO-WI-Migrationshintergrund-js-Anteil-jpg.jpg


It has risen over 10% I think last year. There is definetly fear about we have many school already with over 80-90% immigrant children with Islamic children by far outnumbering everyone else. Also for many it is not diversity that is a threat but forced diversity which makes a huge difference. We are talking here about "positive" discrimination and this will never be ok for most people no matter what.
 
Last edited:

NickFire

Member
America is currently under duress from the reverberation of electing the nation's first black president. The response is being felt globally.

No it is not. I agreed with your first two arguments, but I do not agree that Obama's ethnicity had anything to do with Trump's election over a different white person. The same country that elected Obama elected Trump over a different white person. It was Obama's policies that HRC would continue that caused the shift, not his ethnicity . Sorry, but there is nothing racist about being angry that your promised cheap insurance actually doubled in price and requires payment of a $5K annual deductible before it kicks in.

White people are afraid of becoming the minority. This is not a problem in European countries.

Diversity is seen as a threat, which leads to nationalism. Even misguided.

For your country, diversity might be seen as an innocuous diversion. A trifle.

Here in the states, it's a threat to hegemony, and we are approaching critical mass...again.

Disagree here as well. Diversity itself is not the issue no matter how much easier it is to claim that than admit that many people felt abandoned by their country / party. Sorry, but the belief that importing cheap labor holds back the working / middle class wages, and that the net cost of bringing people here with respect to schools, welfare type benefits, hospitals, etc., are the actual issues by and large. And that people shouldn't be rewarded for breaking the law in many peoples' opinions. I don't mean to suggest these beliefs are all well grounded, but I do suggest that these beliefs are what people have voted and continue to vote on, as opposed to the overly simplistic suggestion that the people with these beliefs are simply racist and trying to keep brown people out.

Anyone can write an article blaming racism for all of their political woes and get published these days. It does not make the article true in its premise.
 
America is currently under duress from the reverberation of electing the nation's first black president. The response is being felt globally.

Ah yes, Ta-Nehisi Coates, one of the biggest race baiters that are currently popular with the identitarian far-left. He likes to write things such as this (from his Book, We Were Eight Years in Power: An American Tragedy):

White people are, in some profound way, trapped. It took generations to make them white, and it will take more to unmake them.

And this gem:

Whereas his forebears carried whiteness like an ancestral talisman, Trump cracked the glowing amulet open, releasing its eldritch energies.

Which beautifully exemplifies the problems I have with that sort of rhetoric. Probably best explained through the words of this NYT author:

I have spent the past six months poring over the literature of European and American white nationalism, in the process interviewing noxious identitarians like the alt-right founder Richard Spencer. The most shocking aspect of Mr. Coates’s wording here is the extent to which it mirrors ideas of race — specifically the specialness of whiteness — that white supremacist thinkers cherish.

This, more than anything, is what is so unsettling about Mr. Coates’s recent writing and the tenor of the leftist “woke” discourse he epitomizes. Though it is not at all morally equivalent, it is nonetheless in sync with the toxic premises of white supremacism. Both sides eagerly reduce people to abstract color categories, all the while feeding off of and legitimizing each other, while those of us searching for gray areas and common ground get devoured twice.

Both sides mystify racial identity, interpreting it as something fixed, determinative and almost supernatural. For Mr. Coates, whiteness is a “talisman,” an “amulet” of “eldritch energies” that explains all injustice; for the abysmal early-20th-century Italian fascist and racist icon Julius Evola, it was a “meta-biological force,” a collective mind-spirit that justifies all inequality. In either case, whites are preordained to walk that special path. It is a dangerous vision of life we should refuse no matter who is doing the conjuring.

I think the reason why we Europeans react so negatively to such verbiage is because it reminds us so much of the fascist identitarian rhetoric of the past. Just replace the word 'white' with 'jew' and there you are...
 
Last edited:

ilfait

Member
No it is not. I agreed with your first two arguments, but I do not agree that Obama's ethnicity had anything to do with Trump's election over a different white person. The same country that elected Obama elected Trump over a different white person. It was Obama's policies that HRC would continue that caused the shift, not his ethnicity . Sorry, but there is nothing racist about being angry that your promised cheap insurance actually doubled in price and requires payment of a $5K annual deductible before it kicks in.
Not only this, but how people vote in any given election and why they vote in a particular way, both individually and as a group, or why they do anything, is often multifaceted and complex, which is why experts (ignoring the experts who may not even attempt to approach analysis in good faith) who try to predict outcomes can and do get it wrong and then post-election develop (usually oversimplified agenda-biased) theories as to why things occurred in a way that they somehow totally failed to predict.

Swap the particular white man who won with some other white man and/or swap out his uncharismatic blatantly phony competition with a decent black candidate who conveys sincerity, even if competing policies remain as they were, and suddenly you're looking at a very different dynamic, and likely different results. And instead of "voters elect white man to reassert white dominance", the same race-focused analyst is talking about how Obama, a black man, paved the way for black president part 2, the blackening.

In our personal lives we're always trying to analyse why some interpersonal event happened the way it did, and there may be some truth in our analysis, but frequently it's only going to be a fraction of the entire truth. Many times we can't even fully conjure up and articulate the complete motivation of our own action, let alone the motivations of another person, let alone the many complex multilayered motivations of the population of a massive country.

So we'll tend to rationalise both large and small scale occurrences in a way that may have the appearance of comprehensiveness and through a narrow enough lens may be logically sound, but at best is only a partial truth; and most importantly we'll do it in a way that consciously or subconsciously (usually a combination of both) aligns with and reinforces our biases and serves our goals.
 
Last edited:

EviLore

Expansive Ellipses
Staff Member


https://resistancehole.clickhole.co...cks-closed-down-for-anti-bias-trai-1826399378

Now that the whole story about two innocent black men being arrested in one of its stores is a distant memory, Starbucks has made the baffling decision to waste a huge amount of everyone’s time and attention today by closing down for anti-bias training even though the #Resistance has moved on and we’re mad about other things now. What a pointless move by Starbucks to address a now-boring issue we already got all mad about last month instead of protesting an outrage that we actually care about.

It would have been an awesome gesture if Starbucks were closing down today so it could address something we’re mad about right now, like the racist Twitter rant Roseanne Barr went on this morning, but instead the Seattle-based coffee franchise is holding a now-useless racial-discrimination training because of an outrage that we barely even remember and stopped tweeting about weeks ago and that basically has nothing to do with the stuff we’re currently furious about, like President Trump.
 

Papa

Banned
What a lot of Americans don't seem to realise is that your shit flows downhill to the rest of us. We may not live in America but we are still stakeholders in your culture because our own cultures are so heavily influenced by it via the media we consume. You can't just dismiss us as not getting "the struggle" when we hear about it every day.
 

TrainedRage

Banned
What a lot of Americans don't seem to realise is that your shit flows downhill to the rest of us. We may not live in America but we are still stakeholders in your culture because our own cultures are so heavily influenced by it via the media we consume. You can't just dismiss us as not getting "the struggle" when we hear about it every day.
I need to keep that in mind. As an American I tend to just assume everyone else online is American. It's actually really dumb of me and is something I think GAF is helping me change.
 

Papa

Banned
I need to keep that in mind. As an American I tend to just assume everyone else online is American. It's actually really dumb of me and is something I think GAF is helping me change.

Thank you for not invalidating my lived experience.

:p
 

BANGS

Banned
Why Cotton was King

Here you can read about the importance of cotton in America and how important it was in states without slavery.
The importance of cotton as a whole was never in question here, the ridiculous statement that the nation was built around that one industry and slave labor is what I was picking on...
 
So I've read through the training document provided by Starbucks. The vast majority of it is comprised of generic platitudes that are centered around your standard flowery buzzwords like tolerance, love, warmth, acceptance, diversity and so on and so forth. It won't do anything to prevent future incidents, but at least it's harmless enough.

The only relevant part is where they try to refute the concept of color-blindness through pseudo-scientific eyewash that is borderline fraudulent. I've cropped the relevant part from page 22:

3rgbVYp.png


They present the Stroop Effect as evidence that subconscious implicit racial bias exists in order to establish their claim that color-blindness is problematic. The problem with that assertion being that the Stroop test has never been conceived to measure implicit bias. In other words, the Stroop effect has f*ck all to do with implicit bias and cannot be used as evidence that people are victim of subconscious racism.

The Stroop test doesn't measure implicit bias

Let's start with what the Stroop Effect actually is:

When the name of a color (e.g., "blue", "green", or "red") is printed in a color which is not denoted by the name (i.e., the word "red" printed in blue ink instead of red ink), naming the color of the word takes longer and is more prone to errors than when the color of the ink matches the name of the color.

Here is what the Stroop Test actually measures:

In psychology, the Stroop effect is a demonstration of interference in the reaction time of a task.

This is what Stroop testing is used for:

Among the most important uses is the creation of validated psychological tests based on the Stroop effect permit to measure a person's selective attention capacity and skills, as well as their processing speed ability. It is also used in conjunction with other neuropsychological assessments to examine a person's executive processing abilities, and can help in the diagnosis and characterization of different psychiatric and neurological disorders.

And finally, this is why the Stroop effect is happening:

This theory suggests there is a lag in the brain's ability to recognize the color of the word since the brain reads words faster than it recognizes colors. [...] It suggests that since recognizing colors is not an "automatic process" there is hesitancy to respond; whereas, the brain automatically understands the meaning of words as a result of habitual reading.

If anything, the Stroop effect would disprove the existence of implicit racial bias, because color is harder for the brain to process, compared to symbols and patterns. This is because we are more used to reading to the point that it becomes an "automatic process", while color recognition requires more cognitive effort:

In most cases, it takes longer to state the colors of the words, rather than to read the text they are printed in, despite the incongruence being essentially the same across both lists. It appears we are more influenced by the physical text than than the text color.

If Starbucks would be so inclined to actually explain to me how the flippin' flip Stroop testing, a procedure that measures cognitive processing speed and is primarily used as a diagnostic tool for neurological disorders, actually measures implicit racial bias, I'd be much obliged!

Emotional Stroop Testing goes contrary to subconscious racial bias

Emotional Stroop testing measures the Stroop effect in relation to the cognitive processing of emotions. Emotional Stroop testing has consistently shown that humans process words and emotions faster than other cognitive tasks. Not only do they recognize facial expressions faster than voices, their effortless capacity to process words is due to the fact that reading is a learned behavior rather than an instinctive one:

Moreover, the faster processing of word reading compared to reporting face expressions is indicative of the formation of stronger stimulus–response associations of an over-learned behavior compared to an instinctive one, which could alternatively be explained through the distinction between awareness and selective attention.

From an evolutionary standpoint this makes perfect sense, since reading emotions and understanding signs in relation to other living beings is much more important for survival than understanding color. In other words, human react much more to a face that smiles or is angry, rather than its color, i.e. they'd prefer the smile of a black person over the frown of a white person. The reason for this is simple, facial expressions and emotions tell you whether the person you're confronted with has friendly or hostile intentions.

Implicit Association Testing (IAT) is not reliable

Lastly, there is a form of Implicit Association Testing (IAT) that claims to measure subconscious racial bias. The test was invented by Anthony Greenwald and Mahzarin Banaji and measures response time to various faces, suggesting that you react in a more biased manner toward black people. The methodology of the test seems to borrow heavily from Stroop testing and basically looks like this:

IAT.gif


The problem with IAT is that it is a complete and utter fraud as explained by these articles (here & here):

A pile of scholarly work, some of it published in top psychology journals and most of it ignored by the media, suggests that the IAT falls far short of the quality-control standards normally expected of psychological instruments. The IAT, this research suggests, is a noisy, unreliable measure that correlates far too weakly with any real-world outcomes to be used to predict individuals’ behavior — even the test’s creators have now admitted as such.

So not only is IAT testing not reliable, it has even been rejected by its own inventors and has been refuted by various other scientists through a big meta study published in 2013:

IATs were poor predictors of every criterion category other than brain activity, and the IATs performed no better than simple explicit measures. These results have important implications for the construct validity of IATs, for competing theories of prejudice and attitude-behavior relations, and for measuring and modeling prejudice and discrimination.

Here is another study showing that IAT tests are highly unreliable and may not even measure subconscious bias at all:

According to Blanton and Jaccard, the conventionally acceptable correlation for test/retest reliability is a correlation coefficient of 0.70 and rises to 0.90 when used for individual assessment. They find that Greenwald’s test/retest reliability is 0.56, while another group of researchers found a test plus three re-tests over a two-week period caused correlation coefficients to plummet to 0.27. [...] While Greenwald and his colleagues argued that the longer response times of the “incompatible” pairings of black pictures and pleasant words versus white pictures and unpleasant words tap into unconscious prejudice, Brendl, Markman, and Messner proposed that the IAT registers “familiar” versus “unfamiliar” sets of associations. The more common associations result in faster reaction times; the more distinctive or less common, the slower times.

In other words, if you're used to seeing more black people in your daily life, you process these faces faster because you're used to seeing them. On the other hand, if you rarely encounter black people, you process white faces faster! In short, IAT testing doesn't measure racial bias, but is due to the fact that people process certain cognitive task faster, because they are more used to doing them. This, by the way, is completely in line with the Stroop effect where people can process words faster because reading is an over-practiced behavior.

The Starbucks training document is pseudo-academic snake oil

So not only is Starbucks pushing the dangerous conviction that color-blindness is a bad thing, they also rely on faulty evidence and are actively misinforming their staff through academic notions that have long since been utter and completely debunked. Stroop testing has nothing to do with implicit bias and IAT is completely unreliable. If Starbucks wants to have diversity training to save them from a PR disaster, that's their business, but selling lies to their employees and attempting to push these falsehoods on a global scale through their corporate reach is outright unacceptable!

As it stands, Starbucks are not combating discrimination by educating its people, they are indoctrinating them with ideological notions sold on a pseudo-scientific lie... and nobody seems to take notice because they probably don't even read that sh*t.
 
Last edited:

ilfait

Member
So I've read through the training document provided by Starbucks. The vast majority of it is comprised of generic platitudes that are centered around your standard flowery buzzwords like tolerance, love, warmth, acceptance, diversity and so on and so forth. It won't do anything to prevent future incidents, but at least it's harmless enough.

The only relevant part is where they try to refute the concept of color-blindness through pseudo-scientific eyewash that is borderline fraudulent. I've cropped the relevant part from page 22:

3rgbVYp.png
Fred's an entrepreneurial perv-bot. He wants to create a business wherein he interfaces with the public via his cold metal pubis.

Commencing interface; tolerance... warmth... love... acceptance... diverrr--divert all power to forward docking probe. Interface complete.
 

Dash27

Member
"Ryan Curran, a white employee at a Sewell, New Jersey, location, said he and his coworkers learned a lot from the Starbucks training and wouldn’t change anything about the curriculum. “It would be helpful to continue the program when needed, for example, if a problem occurs in a certain store,” he said. "

Ryan, a white employee petrified of saying anything to incur the wrath of insane social justice mobs, said everything was perfect, hoping that was the correct answer.
 
Top Bottom