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[llien]

Then if diversity training makes people more racist then I blame the person more than the training. No way a diversity training class makes someone racist or bigoted unless they felt that way in the first place.

You need to realize, that "more racist" is a terrible term, one could become "more racist" and not be racist at all.
It is a vague set of attitudes that are monitored and it is a scientific fact, that most diversity trainings do jack shit, it is also a scientific fact, that some worsen mentioned parameters. (links were provided in earlier posts)

So, to recall our dialog:
-Most of the time diversity training doesn't work.
-But it doesn't harm, does it?
-Yes, it can harm.

So, to summarize, billions $, that could bring so much more, if spent on education of historically disadvantaged groups (education system in US is terrible), for instance, are instead wasted on diversity training that mostly does nothing, and even often harms, because:
1) #covermyarse move by the company, which actually kinda is interested in addressing the problem, but doesn't know how
2) various "diversity training" groups, which, on top of not knowing how to address the problem, are not interested in solving it (the very reason they exist would disappear)

 

[Dunki]

Can't cure current grievances by acting like past mistakes don't impact current lives either.

20-30 year olde not suffering because of slavery etc. Again I will always support the ones who actually had suffered but when you come to me and say we need to have special rights and laws because we are victims of slavery I can not take you seriously and that is what students often do.

I also suffer through stigmatization of men due to modern feminism but I also do not want special rights or privileges because of it.

 

[<+)O Robido O(+>]

Again I will always support the ones who actually had suffered but when you come to me and say we need to have special rights and laws because we are victims of slavery I can not take you seriously and that is what students often do.

I'm starting to understand why all the "leftist" get banned around here. You keep making these same twitter influenced claims and theres nothing left for anyone left to do but insult you personally. We live in a world chock full of information yet you constantly choose the lowest common denominator because it confirms your obvious bias. Some college kids mouthing off on the internet don't represent anyone in power.

I also suffer through stigmatization of men due to modern feminism but I also do not want special rights or privileges because of it.

Lol. Those twitter feminists causing you to lose sleep?

 

[Dunki]

I'm starting to understand why all the "leftist" get banned around here. You keep making these same twitter influenced claims and theres nothing left for anyone left to do but insult you personally. We live in a world chock full of information yet you constantly choose the lowest common denominator because it confirms your obvious bias. Some college kids mouthing off on the internet don't represent anyone in power.

Lol. Those twitter feminists causing you to lose sleep?

Its not twitter. Its mostly media that does this. Guardian, Washington post, vice and so on. Twitter is often a very good indicator how to find these kind of articles and claims. So if this were tweeted by some random people I would not care if its done by so called journalists I do care. Same goes for feminism this is not some random radical feminist. We are talking here about verrified more famous people who want you to abort your child if its white and male.

Again these are just not random claims you see so much in actual news media be it for and against it. New York times wrote articles how college campuses endorse silencing and deny free speech. But yes if you want to insult me you can do that if you want t argue show me fact show me statistics and show me reason that is more than white people are oppressors and I am the victim.

edit: Also here is the funny part. Why do you say no wonder only left people want to insult me? Am I alt right? What am I on a political spectrum?

 

[llien]

I'm starting to understand why all the "leftist" get banned around here...

Huh?

 

[TrainedRage]

Huh?

His side is under attack. In his own mind. It's best to not take the bait.

 

[Phoenix RISING]

Can't cure current grievances by acting like past mistakes don't impact current lives either.

I'm starting to understand why all the "leftist" get banned around here. You keep making these same twitter influenced claims and theres nothing left for anyone left to do but insult you personally. We live in a world chock full of information yet you constantly choose the lowest common denominator because it confirms your obvious bias. Some college kids mouthing off on the internet don't represent anyone in power.

Lol. Those twitter feminists causing you to lose sleep?

To address both of these posts:

 

[mckmas8808]

You need to realize, that "more racist" is a terrible term, one could become "more racist" and not be racist at all.
It is a vague set of attitudes that are monitored and it is a scientific fact, that most diversity trainings do jack shit, it is also a scientific fact, that some worsen mentioned parameters. (links were provided in earlier posts)

So, to recall our dialog:
-Most of the time diversity training doesn't work.
-But it doesn't harm, does it?
-Yes, it can harm.

So, to summarize, billions $, that could bring so much more, if spent on education of historically disadvantaged groups (education system in US is terrible), for instance, are instead wasted on diversity training that mostly does nothing, and even often harms, because:
1) #covermyarse move by the company, which actually kinda is interested in addressing the problem, but doesn't know how
2) various "diversity training" groups, which, on top of not knowing how to address the problem, are not interested in solving it (the very reason they exist would disappear)

1. You sure it's billions of dollars being spent?
2. They should never worsen someone's belief of a person that's a different race from them. I fail to believe people leave diversity training and hate the other race more because of the training class.
3. What other training should be get rid of and just leave up to person to figure out?

 

[llien]

1. You sure it's billions of dollars being spent?

Yes. With "diversity" bureaucracy at campuses rivaling (in numbers) the "traditional" staff. What I'm not sure is whether it's already tens of billions.

2. They should never worsen someone's belief of a person that's a different race from them. I fail to believe people leave diversity training and hate the other race more because of the training class.

It can anger people and associate the questions on the subject with something annoying (something tells me they are very good t it).

You have again raised "hating other race", but it's not about hating to begin with (and not necessarily about races at all).

3. What other training should be get rid of and just leave up to person to figure out?

All money spent on trainings that verifiably do nothing most of the time, rarely have minor positive effect and also do harm is better spent on something else.

 

[Dunki]

Furthermore Many see these training be it diversity or HR idotic time wasters. Normal or the general majority of people who have to do these already know about this and it does not help when you have to do them every few years as well.

These Diversity training are not even some deep complex inside information they are like a kids show that tell you to do nothing bad. I would compare them with the Teletubies in terms of intelectual challenge and annoyance.

Also and mot importantly bringing race up over and over again will make people get annoyed and instead of creating empathy they are creating annoyance and hate about these problems.

 

[mckmas8808]

Furthermore Many see these training be it diversity or HR idotic time wasters. Normal or the general majority of people who have to do these already know about this and it does not help when you have to do them every few years as well.

These Diversity training are not even some deep complex inside information they are like a kids show that tell you to do nothing bad. I would compare them with the Teletubies in terms of intelectual challenge and annoyance.

Also and mot importantly bringing race up over and over again will make people get annoyed and instead of creating empathy they are creating annoyance and hate about these problems.

History shows that those people will NEVER have empathy for people in race-related issues that happen. No need to act like talking about it makes them less empathic.

 

[Dunki]

History shows that those people will NEVER have empathy for people in race-related issues that happen. No need to act like talking about it makes them less empathic.

When you are already thinking they are assholes and have no empathy then why not totally segregate people based on race since it is meaningless for any kind of discussion? But again you try to justify your atrgumentation on history when these people being alive have nothing to do with this history.

History is there to analyze and reflect not to justify actions.

 

[llien]

History shows that those people will NEVER have empathy for people in race-related issues that happen.

As someone who finds "let's feel stronger about something, it will somehow solve our problems" concept ridiculous and even damaging, I can't help linking:

Effects of empathy and relatedness on readiness to help.
"Results indicated that there were no significant differences in helping measures (levels of care risk and number of shifts) as a function of empathic condition. "

Empathy is overrated.

 

[Phoenix RISING]

History shows that those people will NEVER have empathy for people in race-related issues that happen. No need to act like talking about it makes them less empathic.

Yep. This is why I don't even bother.

When they began quoting from books on the topic ("CITATION NEEDED,)" I'll begin to take them seriously.

 

[mckmas8808]

When you are already thinking they are assholes and have no empathy then why not totally segregate people based on race since it is meaningless for any kind of discussion? But again you try to justify your atrgumentation on history when these people being alive have nothing to do with this history.

History is there to analyze and reflect not to justify actions.

History is way to predict what can happen in the future. People alive today are arguing with me that diversity training (FREAKING diversity training my dude) is a terrible thing and makes race relations worse. You thinking I'm going to trust any (and I mean even one of those) of those people to treat me fairly in the streets or at work?

As someone who finds "let's feel stronger about something, it will somehow solve our problems" concept ridiculous and even damaging, I can't help linking:

Effects of empathy and relatedness on readiness to help.
"Results indicated that there were no significant differences in helping measures (levels of care risk and number of shifts) as a function of empathic condition. "

Empathy is overrated.

I'm sure when every day Americans actually "SAW" black people being attacked by dogs and sprayed with water hoses, that created higher levels of empathy. Those higher levels of empathy help create a wave of change for race relations. I look at real life, not some study that tries to prove empathy doesn't matter sorry!

There's a reason why companies put starving kids on commercials to help support feeding hungry kids. Keep lying to yourself that empathy doesn't matter at all.

 

[Dunki]

History is way to predict what can happen in the future. People alive today are arguing with me that diversity training (FREAKING diversity training my dude) is a terrible thing and makes race relations worse. You thinking I'm going to trust any (and I mean even one of those) of those people to treat me fairly in the streets or at work?




I'm sure when every day Americans actually "SAW" black people being attacked by dogs and sprayed with water hoses, that created higher levels of empathy. Those higher levels of empathy help create a wave of change for race relations. I look at real life, not some study that tries to prove empathy doesn't matter sorry!

There's a reason why companies put starving kids on commercials to help support feeding hungry kids. Keep lying to yourself that empathy doesn't matter at all.

You can predict with the history of certain people the future how these people or even this generation will deal with you but we are talking here about different generations with different morals, social standads etc. You can not predict the outcome just because they are white since it has nothing to do with it.

 

[llien]

I'm sure when every day Americans actually "SAW" black people being attacked by dogs and sprayed with water hoses, that created higher levels of empathy.

I'd call that awareness.

I look at real life, not some study that tries to prove empathy doesn't matter sorry!

Study checked connection between empathy and readiness to help, and found little to no effect.
Would you mind naming the reason why you think it was biased and "tried to prove" something against empathy? Bar the obvious "I don't like it as it is incompatible with things I"m used to"?

Keep lying to yourself that empathy doesn't matter at all.

What study actually found was that people that felt more empathy where not more likely to help than people who felt less.

People are more protective of kids in general, it has little to do with empathy.

 

[mckmas8808]

You can predict with the history of certain people the future how these people or even this generation will deal with you but we are talking here about different generations with different morals, social standads etc.

Yes they are different from their parents and grandparents. You are right there. But here's the thing and this is important to know and understand considering that you don't live in America. On "average" white people view race conversations as talking about something that we need to get pass (either by defeating racism or as something we need to get over), whereas black people view race conversations as something that needs to be started and understood.

I didn't make that point up it was a white author that made that point a month or so ago and it was on point! On average we view the point of race conversations totally differently! Most of the time, our goals are 100% opposite. It's why some white folks use the term "race baiter".

I'd call that awareness.


Study checked connection between empathy and readiness to help, and found little to no effect.
Would you mind naming the reason why you think it was biased and "tried to prove" something against empathy? Bar the obvious "I don't like it as it is incompatible with things I"m used to"?


What study actually found was that people that felt more empathy where not more likely to help than people who felt less.

People are more protective of kids in general, it has little to do with empathy.

The obvious question will always be asked about a study like this (and I LOVE science and all studies like this) is how does one truly measure empathy. It's like trying to measure IQ of someone. What one culture can deem smart/intellegent, another could find no use for.

 

[Dunki]

Yes they are different from their parents and grandparents. You are right there. But here's the thing and this is important to know and understand considering that you don't live in America. On "average" white people view race conversations as talking about something that we need to get pass (either by defeating racism or as something we need to get over), whereas black people view race conversations as something that needs to be started and understood.

I didn't make that point up it was a white author that made that point a month or so ago and it was on point! On average we view the point of race conversations totally differently! Most of the time, our goals are 100% opposite. It's why some white folks use the term "race baiter".
.

The goals are the same to end racism. The way people want to do this are different. Morgan Freeman for example is also someone who does not want to tak about race anymore. He wants to be seen as a person not his skincolor and I agree with this as well.

And I am sorry but always bringing up how different black people are and that white people will never understand black people is damaging as well. It does not create hope but only hate. When black parents for example tell their children to not trust white kids even if they want to be their friend (aka New York Times editorial) always telling black people how white people will throw them under the bus eventually etc.

And they you try to argue with because history told us.....

 

[mckmas8808]

The goals are the same to end racism. The way people want to do this are different. Morgan Freeman for example is also someone who does not want to tak about race anymore. He wants to be seen as a person not his skincolor and I agree with this as well.

And I am sorry but always bringing up how different black people are and that white people will never understand black people is damaging as well. It does not create hope but only hate. When black parents for example tell their children to not trust white kids even if they want to be their friend (aka New York Times editorial) always telling black people how white people will throw them under the bus eventually etc.

And they you try to argue with because history told us.....

1. That's why I said on average. Morgan Freeman is a fool for saying what he said also. How can a person say "lets not talk about race anymore"? That an asinine thing to say in my opinion. It's not a puzzle that can be completed, it's not a race that can be finished, it's not a food that can be cooked and done. It'll be like a preacher of a church saying he doesn't want to talk about Sin anymore. It's always going to be an issue in some form.

2. Most black people don't want to live in a colorblind society. We want to live in a society that accepts all races and embraces all races, not try to make everything gray and meaningless.

3. Nothing stops black people from being racist towards white people. I'm not sure why you think I'm saying it goes only one way.

 

[Phoenix RISING]

History is way to predict what can happen in the future. People alive today are arguing with me that diversity training (FREAKING diversity training my dude) is a terrible thing and makes race relations worse. You thinking I'm going to trust any (and I mean even one of those) of those people to treat me fairly in the streets or at work?


I'm sure when every day Americans actually "SAW" black people being attacked by dogs and sprayed with water hoses, that created higher levels of empathy. Those higher levels of empathy help create a wave of change for race relations. I look at real life, not some study that tries to prove empathy doesn't matter sorry!

There's a reason why companies put starving kids on commercials to help support feeding hungry kids. Keep lying to yourself that empathy doesn't matter at all.

I literally saw Chrissy T post about this today.

In another thread, someone said something about celebrities being disconnected from reality. No, not all of them. In fact a lot of them, such as the MCU roster like Chris Evans, Mark Ruffalo, Don Cheadle, are regularly showing their support for various social causes.

But they use negative interactions, such as Rosanne's big mouth to shame the positive ones. What kind of bass-ackwards logic is that?

 

[Dunki]

1. That's why I said on average. Morgan Freeman is a fool for saying what he said also. How can a person say "lets not talk about race anymore"? That an asinine thing to say in my opinion. It's not a puzzle that can be completed, it's not a race that can be finished, it's not a food that can be cooked and done. It'll be like a preacher of a church saying he doesn't want to talk about Sin anymore. It's always going to be an issue in some form.

2. Most black people don't want to live in a colorblind society. We want to live in a society that accepts all races and embraces all races, not try to make everything gray and meaningless.

3. Nothing stops black people from being racist towards white people. I'm not sure why you think I'm saying it goes only one way.

It is not lets not talk about it anymore but rather make race something unimportant and make it person and people we talk interact with etc. Also colorblind means that we do not care what race you are and treat you the same and jsut like everyone else.

Again I will not be more careful around people because I do not think they are special and need special treatment they are on the same level and stage as I am. There are good ones and bad ones but I will never judge or interact with people depending on their color or gender. RAce should not be forgotten but it should bes something for the classroom not the public streets.

As for the racist people I really often from so called progressivs ,feminists Black twitter (lol) hear that black people can not be racist against white people, or that reverse racism does not exist. Of course it does not exist because it is still racism. Racism is something awful I guess we are all agreeing on this but if you call everything bad that happens to a black person racism it loses so much power and weight. When we live in a current society in which everything is racist people are just fed up when real racism does happen.

Racism is not wearing a mexican sombrero, a Native American costume, a Kimono (yes this was also a thing in Boston). Racism is the believe of one race being superior and the other ones worthless. People not being treated like human beings this is what we should fight not the other shit. Also it does not help when the so called progressive left calls everyone who disagrees with them an Alt Right Nazi etc.

If you want to talk about race it is fine but do not use this as an excuse for unimportant things. It is not worth the fight and it is also not healthy to the overall cause IMO. And I am not directly talking to you but the people who read it and think like that.

 

[<+)O Robido O(+>]

As for the racist people I really often from so called progressivs ,feminists Black twitter (lol) hear that black people can not be racist against white people,

They're mostly talking about institutional, systemic racism.

 

[llien]

The obvious question will always be asked about a study like this (and I LOVE science and all studies like this) is how does one truly measure empathy. It's like trying to measure IQ of someone. What one culture can deem smart/intellegent, another could find no use for.

Fair enough and I'd say measuring feelings is worse than measuring IQ.
In the study I've linked, they didn't measure empathy at all, however.
Some were instructed to spend time trying to feel what the patient is feeling, others were not.

They're mostly talking about institutional, systemic racism.

The issue with institutional, systemic racism in US, is that the provided evidence (some of it I have seen on this site, asked questions, got no answers, it just seems to be that way) is not an evidence at all. (and when using the same metric one would need to conclude white men are oppressed by white women (incarceration) or whites are oppressed by Asians (scoring 80 points more than whites, 6% of population, 35% of google) At best, we are looking at correlation which does not at all equal causation. Jonathan Heidt mentions the most common "proofs" here (video title is clickbaity, but content is solid):



I think it happens because:
1) There is no honest attempt to help
2) There is too much money around
3) Nailing facts is harder than waving, what I'd call, "rhetorical stats"
4) Misguided stats work so well for "spreading awareness" that why even bother. Getting to the crux of the issue would be the necessary step to address it, but again, nobody cares

 

[Dunki]

They're mostly talking about institutional, systemic racism.

No they are really nt and even than this would only count for America and not worldwide. If we look at the situation that white people right now face in South Africa than you can see an even worse form of institutional racism. The leaders even stated that white people should be happy that they have not started a genocide yet.

 

[LegendOfKage]

Yes they are different from their parents and grandparents. You are right there. But here's the thing and this is important to know and understand considering that you don't live in America. On "average" white people view race conversations as talking about something that we need to get pass (either by defeating racism or as something we need to get over), whereas black people view race conversations as something that needs to be started and understood.

I didn't make that point up it was a white author that made that point a month or so ago and it was on point! On average we view the point of race conversations totally differently! Most of the time, our goals are 100% opposite. It's why some white folks use the term "race baiter".

I think a lot of people view conversations about racism like they do conversations about religion or politics. There's a good possibility that you're going to disagree, and if you do disagree then one or both of you could become upset with the other person, so why bother discussing that topic in the first place? Would you agree it's fair to say a lot of people feel that way?

Secondly, you've suggested that black people on average view conversations about race as something that needs to be started and understood. What do you specifically feel is the goal to a conversation about race? Just having the conversation in the first place, or something more? If you have a conversation about race, what do you feel are examples of the best outcome, an imperfect outcome, and a bad outcome?

 

[mckmas8808]

I think a lot of people view conversations about racism like they do conversations about religion or politics. There's a good possibility that you're going to disagree, and if you do disagree then one or both of you could become upset with the other person, so why bother discussing that topic in the first place? Would you agree it's fair to say a lot of people feel that way?

Secondly, you've suggested that black people on average view conversations about race as something that needs to be started and understood. What do you specifically feel is the goal to a conversation about race? Just having the conversation in the first place, or something more? If you have a conversation about race, what do you feel are examples of the best outcome, an imperfect outcome, and a bad outcome?

1. I agree that's how some people view conversations on race. But like religion and/or politics it can be discussed with respect and things can go very well. But I can see why you'd lump all three of those together because they are hot button topics.

2. The goal for race conversations on race is for many black people is "acknowledgment" and "understanding". It honestly feels like we are 50+ years removed from the Civil Rights laws being passed and a lot of black people still feel like "general" America doesn't understand us that much. Just look at the whole Colin Kaepernick kneeling in the NFL story. We are almost 2 years into that story and we have the President of the United States calling NFL players "Sons of Bitches" (in public at a planned event in front of thousands of people) and disinviting 2 Championship teams (The Warriors and The Eagles) from coming to the White House due to National Anthem stuff. I feel like I could teach an Alien from out of space (after he learns English lol) our American history and how it leads up to Colin kneeling during the Anthem and he, she, or it would understand within a couple hours. Yet our nation after 2 years still doesn't seem to understand.

 

[LegendOfKage]

1. I agree that's how some people view conversations on race. But like religion and/or politics it can be discussed with respect and things can go very well. But I can see why you'd lump all three of those together because they are hot button topics.

2. The goal for race conversations on race is for many black people is "acknowledgment" and "understanding". It honestly feels like we are 50+ years removed from the Civil Rights laws being passed and a lot of black people still feel like "general" America doesn't understand us that much. Just look at the whole Colin Kaepernick kneeling in the NFL story. We are almost 2 years into that story and we have the President of the United States calling NFL players "Sons of Bitches" (in public at a planned event in front of thousands of people) and disinviting 2 Championship teams (The Warriors and The Eagles) from coming to the White House due to National Anthem stuff. I feel like I could teach an Alien from out of space (after he learns English lol) our American history and how it leads up to Colin kneeling during the Anthem and he, she, or it would understand within a couple hours. Yet our nation after 2 years still doesn't seem to understand.

But are acknowledgement and understanding the only important aspects of a conversation about racism, or is agreement also important? Because I think there's a tendency to tie understanding with agreement. For example, to make both arguments regarding what you mentioned above:

You say you understand, but you don't really. If you really understood, you'd see why Kaepernick kneeling is more important than showing socially compelled ceremonious respect to the flag of a country that continuously mistreats large groups of its citizens. This is especially true when Kaepernick would be going through the motions of standing with hand on heart, either lying to himself, or lying to everyone else. To suggest that he do so out of blind obedience to tradition doesn't seem very American to me.

You say you understand, but you don't really. If you really understood, you'd see why Kaepernick kneeling is inherently disrespectful to our veterans and our armed services, no matter what he might think. This is true just as people who make ape comments about a black person are being inherently disrespectful to black people, no matter what they might think. Respect for the flag has always been tied to our veterans. Intentions are important, but so is perception, and disrespecting our country and our veterans isn't the right way to fight racism.

 

[mckmas8808]

But are acknowledgement and understanding the only important aspects of a conversation about racism, or is agreement also important? Because I think there's a tendency to tie understanding with agreement. For example, to make both arguments regarding what you mentioned above:

You say you understand, but you don't really. If you really understood, you'd see why Kaepernick kneeling is more important than showing socially compelled ceremonious respect to the flag of a country that continuously mistreats large groups of its citizens. This is especially true when Kaepernick would be going through the motions of standing with hand on heart, either lying to himself, or lying to everyone else. To suggest that he do so out of blind obedience to tradition doesn't seem very American to me.

You say you understand, but you don't really. If you really understood, you'd see why Kaepernick kneeling is inherently disrespectful to our veterans and our armed services, no matter what he might think. This is true just as people who make ape comments about a black person are being inherently disrespectful to black people, no matter what they might think. Respect for the flag has always been tied to our veterans. Intentions are important, but so is perception, and disrespecting our country and our veterans isn't the right way to fight racism.

No people don't have to agree. But you at least have to have an understanding. At a minimum! I love your two voices of thought on that same subject. Personally, I'd love to ask the 2nd person a few questions.

1. Why do you believe the only way to show respect for the flag is to stand with hand over heart?
2. Why is respecting the flag tied to veterans and not to the country's citizens?
3. If the country is lead by a civilian (and that's by design by the nation's forefathers), why do they put more importance on what the military thinks about the country than civilians?
4. Is it possible that you are over estimating how veterans feel about kneeling during the anthem?
5. Is it truly freedom that veterans are fighting for, if we can't choose to not stand during the national anthem? Do we also have to say the Pledge of Alliance when a boss or teacher asks us to?

The person in your 2nd section clearly wouldn't have understood where the 1st person was coming from. You can't be against the government when it comes to higher taxes, more gun control, Obamacare, etc and then say "boy you better stand up and straighten that back out with hand over heart and sing that song!"

 

[LegendOfKage]

No people don't have to agree. But you at least have to have an understanding. At a minimum! I love your two voices of thought on that same subject. Personally, I'd love to ask the 2nd person a few questions.

Thanks. I wrote both, so I'll answer them now:

- 1. Why do you believe the only way to show respect for the flag is to stand with hand over heart?

It's not the only way to show respect for the flag, but during the national anthem, not at least standing has often been considered to be disrespectful.

- 2. Why is respecting the flag tied to veterans and not to the country's citizens?

For me personally, this started a LONG time ago when I was taught respect for my nation's flag and anthem. Respect for America / our anthem and flag was always tied to the people who fought in wars and died for our freedom. This isn't something people are making up to bash Kapernick. It's a belief a lot of people have, and were taught since childhood. Right along with America being the land of opportunity where anyone can succeed / a nation of free speech (which some liberals seem hate to hear these days), and being a melting pot / welcoming to immigrants of all nations (which some conservatives hate to hear these days).

To answer your question, the argument would be that for citizens who grew up as I did, disrespecting the flag is something that personally offends them as a citizen. Even ignoring citizenship and hypothetically arguing that the flag only represents our veterans and not our citizens and our country, our citizens could still be offended, even if they're not technically the ones being slighted. This is true the same way white people can get offended by racial slurs used against minorities.

- 3. If the country is lead by a civilian (and that's by design by the nation's forefathers), why do they put more importance on what the military thinks about the country than civilians?

This was mostly answered above. It's not just the military who have been taught respect for the flag.

- 4. Is it possible that you are over estimating how veterans feel about kneeling during the anthem?

This was also mostly answered above. But I wouldn't mind seeing the results of some actual polls. It ultimately wouldn't matter, and would be an appeal to the majority if used as an argument for either side of the issue, but it would be interesting to see. It would also be interesting to see the results of asking the same question to various generations, races, and religions.

One unintended effect this might actually have (because it's unfortunately not going to change anything about racial profiling or police brutality) is a generation of people are now being told that not showing respect for the flag has nothing to do with with not showing respect to veterans or our military. There is no "truth" here, only social construct, but that doesn't make it any less insulting for those who hold other beliefs.

- 5. Is it truly freedom that veterans are fighting for, if we can't choose to not stand during the national anthem? Do we also have to say the Pledge of Alliance when a boss or teacher asks us to?

Legally, you can choose, which is why I felt the "stay in the locker room" compromise makes perfect sense, and I think Trump was dumb to suggest otherwise. Ultimately, where I stand on this issue is very close to the gay wedding cake issue. Speech should not be compelled, but outside of that, if you're an employee who is "on the clock" you probably should not do anything that is divisive at your place of employment.

The person in your 2nd section clearly wouldn't have understood where the 1st person was coming from. You can't be against the government when it comes to higher taxes, more gun control, Obamacare, etc and then say "boy you better stand up and straighten that back out with hand over heart and sing that song!"

I wrote both sections, and agree with almost all of both sections, right up until my actual decision on the topic, largely informed by how I was raised as a child. I'd like to think I understand where the 1st person is coming from, along with the 2nd. I can empathize with both.

Regarding the last thing you said, you can respect and love your country, while also believing in small government. Being against the government and being against what you feel is government overreach are two very different things. I'll give you this, though: For those who think the flag should be respected to the point where businesses should be able to compel employees to show respect to the flag, or for those who feel a law should be passed that requires people express respect to our flag / anthem, I think they're complete hypocrites.

 

[mckmas8808]

Thanks. I wrote both, so I'll answer them now:

- 1. Why do you believe the only way to show respect for the flag is to stand with hand over heart?

It's not the only way to show respect for the flag, but during the national anthem, not at least standing has often been considered to be disrespectful.

- 2. Why is respecting the flag tied to veterans and not to the country's citizens?

For me personally, this started a LONG time ago when I was taught respect for my nation's flag and anthem. Respect for America / our anthem and flag was always tied to the people who fought in wars and died for our freedom. This isn't something people are making up to bash Kapernick. It's a belief a lot of people have, and were taught since childhood. Right along with America being the land of opportunity where anyone can succeed / a nation of free speech (which some liberals seem hate to hear these days), and being a melting pot / welcoming to immigrants of all nations (which some conservatives hate to hear these days).

To answer your question, the argument would be that for citizens who grew up as I did, disrespecting the flag is something that personally offends them as a citizen. Even ignoring citizenship and hypothetically arguing that the flag only represents our veterans and not our citizens and our country, our citizens could still be offended, even if they're not technically the ones being slighted. This is true the same way white people can get offended by racial slurs used against minorities.

- 3. If the country is lead by a civilian (and that's by design by the nation's forefathers), why do they put more importance on what the military thinks about the country than civilians?

This was mostly answered above. It's not just the military who have been taught respect for the flag.

- 4. Is it possible that you are over estimating how veterans feel about kneeling during the anthem?

This was also mostly answered above. But I wouldn't mind seeing the results of some actual polls. It ultimately wouldn't matter, and would be an appeal to the majority if used as an argument for either side of the issue, but it would be interesting to see. It would also be interesting to see the results of asking the same question to various generations, races, and religions.

One unintended effect this might actually have (because it's unfortunately not going to change anything about racial profiling or police brutality) is a generation of people are now being told that not showing respect for the flag has nothing to do with with not showing respect to veterans or our military. There is no "truth" here, only social construct, but that doesn't make it any less insulting for those who hold other beliefs.

- 5. Is it truly freedom that veterans are fighting for, if we can't choose to not stand during the national anthem? Do we also have to say the Pledge of Alliance when a boss or teacher asks us to?

Legally, you can choose, which is why I felt the "stay in the locker room" compromise makes perfect sense, and I think Trump was dumb to suggest otherwise. Ultimately, where I stand on this issue is very close to the gay wedding cake issue. Speech should not be compelled, but outside of that, if you're an employee who is "on the clock" you probably should not do anything that is divisive at your place of employment.



I wrote both sections, and agree with almost all of both sections, right up until my actual decision on the topic, largely informed by how I was raised as a child. I'd like to think I understand where the 1st person is coming from, along with the 2nd. I can empathize with both.

Regarding the last thing you said, you can respect and love your country, while also believing in small government. Being against the government and being against what you feel is government overreach are two very different things. I'll give you this, though: For those who think the flag should be respected to the point where businesses should be able to compel employees to show respect to the flag, or for those who feel a law should be passed that requires people express respect to our flag / anthem, I think they're complete hypocrites.

So basically it mainly comes down to what you were taught as a kid and how you were raised. That's shaped how you view what "respect for the flag" is. That's interesting and obvious now that you've explained so well. Here's the interesting thing from the other side.

If you are a kid and you are raised knowing that the country has done things 10 things against black people (I'll display these 10 things with pictures)

1.

2.

3.

4.

5.

6.

7.

8.

9.

10.

All 10 of these images show and speak on black people's lives over a 400 year period. All were legalized either directly or indirectly by the American government through law or through non-action. That same American flag that some citizens want people to respect so much is the same flag that flew in the air while the country allowed or wanted all of these images to happen.

So I can honestly understand "how" and "why" you feel the way you feel. I respect you for your opinion on the matter and how you view the flag while the national anthem is playing. But forgive others if they don't have those same feelings or view the flag the same way you do because many black people have been taught a different side of America. We've been taught this by necessity. In order to be black in America for most of us, if you don't know this history you can be lost in this country not understanding what's going on around you and why. Please forgive some black people if they feel that a peaceful kneeling for 90 seconds while the national anthem is playing, is how they reconcile with their concise in this country that tells us "O, the land of the free and the home of the brave", while some aren't even free to be black and walk the street at night without being harrassed by a cop or the country not be brave enough to confront police organizations around America to start arresting these over zeolous cops that do wrong.

 

[LegendOfKage]

All 10 of these images show and speak on black people's lives over a 400 year period. All were legalized either directly or indirectly by the American government through law or through non-action. That same American flag that some citizens want people to respect so much is the same flag that flew in the air while the country allowed or wanted all of these images to happen.

So I can honestly understand "how" and "why" you feel the way you feel. I respect you for your opinion on the matter and how you view the flag while the national anthem is playing. But forgive others if they don't have those same feelings or view the flag the same way you do because many black people have been taught a different side of America. We've been taught this by necessity. In order to be black in America for most of us, if you don't know this history you can be lost in this country not understanding what's going on around you and why. Please forgive some black people if they feel that a peaceful kneeling for 90 seconds while the national anthem is playing, is how they reconcile with their conscience in this country that tells us "O, the land of the free and the home of the brave", while some aren't even free to be black and walk the street at night without being harrassed by a cop or the country not be brave enough to confront police organizations around America to start arresting these over zeolous cops that do wrong.

I do. It's the reason I don't feel angry at those who disagree, and agreed with so much of my first example. I understand that they learned something else in their childhood, or arrived at that point later in life.

It doesn't personally wound me to see someone not standing for the anthem. However, there are people in this country who would support the idea of police reform, if the issue was properly framed and presented to them, but who are also highly patriotic and hate to see the flag being disrespected. And when someone is pushing for social change, I don't think it helps to alienate potential allies. That's the other part of this whole thing that's kind of a shame.