Support NeoGAF

[Colbert]

It's not useless at all but if I was MS I wouldn't increase it but leave it at that size as a high-performance, low-latency cache for Scorpio games and for legacy reasons for XBO games (i.e. the same games but different profiles).

Don't you think the ESRAM would be a waste of die space? For legacy reasons they may have another solution available like for example mapping a 32MB region of the shared memory to the same virtual address the ESRAM was mapped to in the Xbox One (S). As the memory bandwidth of the shared memory is already higher than the ESRAM was in the OG Xbox One I cannot see much issues with such a solution.

 

[leeh]

because if the Scorpio fails to live up to the insane hype s/he's encouraging, s/he gets an instant Hall of Shame collection at the end of 2017.

It's shameful that people are hoping for the best of their next product?

When the PS4 Pro was announced and the second spec was rumoured with a better CPU/GPU, most people were also hoping for that. Are they shameful as well?

 

[c0de]

Don't you think the ESRAM would be a waste of die space? For legacy reasons they may have another solution available like for example mapping a 32MB region of the shared memory to the same virtual address the ESRAM was mapped to in the Xbox One (S). As the memory bandwidth of the shared memory is already higher than the ESRAM was in the OG Xbox One I cannot see much issues with such a solution.

But you forget latency in this case. Of course you can map this to the main RAM but that doesn't mean that the performance will be equal.

 

[Javin98]

Meanwhile, the Vega and Ryzen architecture threads are quiet as heck 😪

Well, if I'm perfectly honest, the main reason by far I'm even interested in both architectures is to see where things could go for the next generation of consoles. I mean, it's nice that AMD is trying to compete in the high end market again, but I still have my doubts. Even then, unless something goes down, Intel and Nvidia combo is still better IMO. Love my i5 6500 and GTX 1060 set up.

OK, what the hell is going on? How come you're positive in an Xbox thread?

Even thelastword lost it in this thread, go figure.

 

[anothertech]

Microsoft have already confirmed 8 core CPU. I'm genuinely starting to think that if it ends up being Zen, that SMT (as crazy as this may sound) will actually stay intact.

This is just another point against zen tbh. But it's no more crazy than blowing off insiders like Matt or Corporate leaders like Lisa Su.

So sure, why not? Add HBM to the list. It will be readily available by the end of the year. The GPU could very well be using tech beyond Vega by years end realistically, it could have elements of Navi, like pro has elements of Vega

 

[Dynasty]

It's not useless at all but if I was MS I wouldn't increase it but leave it at that size as a high-performance, low-latency cache for Scorpio games and for legacy reasons for XBO games (i.e. the same games but different profiles).

Waste of die space and money that could be spent to make the harware stronger or not spent at all to bring down the price. They would also have to add move engines as well if they are addding stuff for legacy applications. The reason MS went with a smaller GPU and less compute units with the X1 is because they ran out of die space due to the eSRAM taking a lot of room. With the Scorpio they want would want to make the GPU as strong as possible.
MS probably has some software solution.

 

[Cthulhu_Steev]

It's shameful that people are hoping for the best of their next product?

When the PS4 Pro was announced and the second spec was rumoured with a better CPU/GPU, most people were also hoping for that. Are they shameful as well?

Yeah, you've completely missed the point there.

 

[c0de]

Waste of die space and money that could be spent to make the harware stronger or not spent at all to bring down the price. They would also have to add move engines as well if they are addding stuff for legacy applications. The reason MS went with a smaller GPU and less compute units with the X1 is because they ran out of die space due to the eSRAM taking a lot of room. With the Scorpio they want would want to make the GPU as strong as possible.
MS probably has some software solution.

I wonder how that will work.

 

[Yautja_Warrior]

Having built a beefy PC, I know how impossible 4k 60FPS is with current software. Don't get your hopes up.

Yeah I think people are expecting a little too much from Scorpio, with some of the spec predictions being posted but if people really expect it to be some kind of all powerful system at an affordable price, they will probably be very disappointed.

Not that Scorpio won't be powerful to some degree but its a console, so expect compromises to be made to keep the cost reasonable, like even if it ended up using Zen, it won't be the top end Zen but a cut down version to keep power, heat and costs down.

Best to keep expectations realistic.

 

[wapplew]

Yeah I think people are expecting a little too much from Scorpio, with some of the spec predictions being posted but if people really expect it to be some kind of all powerful system at an affordable price, they will probably be very disappointed.

Not that Scorpio won't be powerful to some degree but its a console, so expect compromises to be made to keep the cost reasonable, like even if it ended up using Zen, it won't be the top end Zen but a cut down version to keep power, heat and costs down.

Best to keep expectations realistic.

I think people want Zen for 1080p 60fps, not 4K 60fps.

 

[Septic360]

Stinkles right now:

Ahahaha

 

[Yautja_Warrior]

I think people want Zen for 1080p 60fps, not 4K 60fps.

Yeah just a shame MS are going for 4k, not that I mind though, having a 4k TV myself I love 4k but not everyone is onboard with 4k right now.

 

[MilkyJoe]

Yeah just a shame MS are going for 4k, not that I mind though, having a 4k TV myself I love 4k but not everyone is onboard with 4k right now.

Good job they already said that games don't have to be 4K and the devs can choose how they use the resources.

 

[Yautja_Warrior]

Good job they already said that games don't have to be 4K and the devs can choose how they use the resources.

I expect it to be similar to the PS4 Pro. With devs making games for the Pro now, they will still push for 4k or a dynamic resolution, while still supporting 1080p screens but just like with the Pro, it will depend on the dev as to how much effort they put into it.

MS exclusives shouldn't be an issue but multi-platform games, where dev time and resources are tight, might not always take full advantage of the system, even at 1080p, just like whats already happened with the PS4 Pro on some games.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Well, one could argue that SMT means a core so a 4-core CPU with SMT should fit in that description.

threads are not cores though. Its a clear distinction

 

[Can Crusher]

Some of the ideas here, it's as if MS is supposed to start next gen already. I don't get it, if you're an xbox one owner, why the hell do you want the MS to kill it so quick? Is it that bad?

But maybe this is what you need for 4K gaming.

 

[MysteryM]

Some of the ideas here, it's as if MS is supposed to start next gen already. I don't get it, if you're an xbox one owner, why the hell do you want the MS to kill it so quick? Is it that bad?

But maybe this is what you need for 4K gaming.

We know that scorpio won't kill the xbox one, however one day the scorpio will be the lowest supported console if we assume a generation approach. When that day comes, I need the machine to be as powerful as it can be.

 

[Inuhanyou]

We know that scorpio won't kill the xbox one, however one day the scorpio will be the lowest supported console if we assume a generation approach. When that day comes, I need the machine to be as powerful as it can be.

But it will still be outdated compared to PC and PS5 by the time XB1 is dropped though..so its not as if it generally matters, the outcome is the same in that hardware never can be future proofed

 

[wapplew]

Some of the ideas here, it's as if MS is supposed to start next gen already. I don't get it, if you're an xbox one owner, why the hell do you want the MS to kill it so quick? Is it that bad?

But maybe this is what you need for 4K gaming.

For people who are ready to upgrade, why should they concern about Xbox one?

 

[MilkyJoe]

Some of the ideas here, it's as if MS is supposed to start next gen already. I don't get it, if you're an xbox one owner, why the hell do you want the MS to kill it so quick? Is it that bad?

But maybe this is what you need for 4K gaming.

It's been 4 years, that's long enough for this box. It has nothing more to give.

 

[Coulomb_Barrier]

But it will still be outdated compared to PC and PS5 by the time XB1 is dropped though..so its not as if it generally matters, the outcome is the same in that hardware never can be future proofed

It's gonna be massively outdated compared to high-end PCs in 10 months' time so MS fans really should stop calling it 'a beast' as that's quite amusing.

A 6TF machine in 10 months time when AMD will drop a 12.5TF Vega graphics cards around June. And then at the end of the year Nvidia might release something even more potent with their Volta cards. That will make Scorpio look like 2 gens old.

 

[LukasTaves]

But you forget latency in this case. Of course you can map this to the main RAM but that doesn't mean that the performance will be equal.

Latency could be higher, but the bigger throughput and everything else being faster could very well mean an overall increase of performance.

And if it is indeed Vega, there's cache and memory controller enhancements to make the Design more efficient, perhaps even latency won't be an issue.

 

[Javin98]

It's gonna be massively outdated compared to high-end PCs in 10 months' time so MS fans really should stop calling it 'a beast' as that's quite amusing.

A 6TF machine in 10 months time when AMD will drop a 12.5TF Vega graphics cards around June. And then at the end of the year Nvidia might release something even more potent with their Volta cards. That will make Scorpio look like 2 gens old.

To be fair, even if the Scorpio released last year, it would have been outdated. The Titan XP is rated at 11.8 TFlops, roughly twice as powerful as the Scorpio's GPU. The thing is, these high end cards have been unfeasible in a console since years ago. The power consumption is far too high and neither Sony nor Microsoft want to make a significant loss of the hardware sold. I'm pretty certain that the PS5 will be outdated when it releases too. If it is 13+TFlops, high end cards then will probably output over 20TFlops easily, perhaps even 25TFlops.

 

[c0de]

Latency could be higher, but the bigger throughput and everything else being faster could very well mean an overall increase of performance.

And if it is indeed Vega, there's cache and memory controller enhancements to make the Design more efficient, perhaps even latency won't be an issue.

I don't know how flexible the esram was and if you can just mimic the behavior with "usual" ram. And I don't say it's impossible but I am very, very skeptical.

 

[Yautja_Warrior]

It's been 4 years, that's long enough for this box. It has nothing more to give.

Some people might be annoyed at a new console so soon, probably because of the stupidly long PS3 / 360 generation that took the standard 5 year life cycle and stretched it to nearly 10 years

But I agree, the XB1 has had its time now. Sony can hold off a little and drag out the PS4 a few more years, thanks to the Pro and strong sales but I still expect PS5 to be announced before or in 2019, as they will want / need to stay ahead of the competition.

 

[c0de]

It's gonna be massively outdated compared to high-end PCs in 10 months' time so MS fans really should stop calling it 'a beast' as that's quite amusing.

A 6TF machine in 10 months time when AMD will drop a 12.5TF Vega graphics cards around June. And then at the end of the year Nvidia might release something even more potent with their Volta cards. That will make Scorpio look like 2 gens old.

Well, that's some kind of attitude we should have for every console because well... it's a no-brainer. Same applied to PS4/XBO and will apply to PS5 but for console-only people it will still be a beast, just like the next PS will be.

 

[Dee Dah Dave]

My votes on the eSRAM being in. Then they tweak the original design to provide the CPU with direct access to it as well as with the GPU. Then when it's not doing 'legacy' tasks it can be used as a fast L4 cache.

If MS could easily drop it then they probably will as it would take up maybe $20 worth of silicon. But I'm not sure they can. I think they would have to do quite a lot in software to overcome it. Certainly not beyond Microsoft but it might be a lot of hassle.

Also I think that's a possible reason why in the E3 video they said "over 320GB/s". Because they were counting the GDDR5 bandwidth plus the eSRAM.

Plus I think doing that could go a long way to help boost CPU performance, providing they alter the original design.

I could easily be completely wrong too!

 

[Jaguar Victory]

It's gonna be massively outdated compared to high-end PCs in 10 months' time so MS fans really should stop calling it 'a beast' as that's quite amusing.

A 6TF machine in 10 months time when AMD will drop a 12.5TF Vega graphics cards around June. And then at the end of the year Nvidia might release something even more potent with their Volta cards. That will make Scorpio look like 2 gens old.

Yeah guys. Who cares how powerful the next Mustang GT is at $36,000. I mean, there will be Lamborghinis out there much faster and sleeker for $278,000.

It's all relative to price. People still want a nice daily driver.

 

[Primethius]

We know that scorpio won't kill the xbox one, however one day the scorpio will be the lowest supported console if we assume a generation approach. When that day comes, I need the machine to be as powerful as it can be.

Even in a generation approach, neither publisher is going to be dictating when that transition happens (assuming iterative consoles keep on moving forward).

Given rising development costs and the proliferation of cross-gen games at the start of this generation, we are likely to see cross-gen games way past the date of whenever the new gen is going to start, even into an iteration or two in of a new console.

 

[krang]

It's gonna be massively outdated compared to high-end PCs in 10 months' time so MS fans really should stop calling it 'a beast' as that's quite amusing.

A 6TF machine in 10 months time when AMD will drop a 12.5TF Vega graphics cards around June. And then at the end of the year Nvidia might release something even more potent with their Volta cards. That will make Scorpio look like 2 gens old.

Wrong side of the bed this morning?

 

[Ganrob]

I think people want Zen for 1080p 60fps, not 4K 60fps.

I think that could be realistic (albeit not rock solid 60 FPS), and not every title.

 

[Stinkles]

Stinkles right now:

 

[Colbert]

My votes on the eSRAM being in. Then they tweak the original design to provide the CPU with direct access to it as well as with the GPU. Then when it's not doing 'legacy' tasks it can be used as a fast L4 cache.

If MS could easily drop it then they probably will as it would take up maybe $20 worth of silicon. But I'm not sure they can. I think they would have to do quite a lot in software to overcome it. Certainly not beyond Microsoft but it might be a lot of hassle.

Also I think that's a possible reason why in the E3 video they said "over 320GB/s". Because they were counting the GDDR5 bandwidth plus the eSRAM.

Plus I think doing that could go a long way to help boost CPU performance, providing they alter the original design.

I could easily be completely wrong too!

We are all just speculating and in result many of us will be wrong for certain predictions.

I personally think ESRAM would be a waste of die space and from a cost POV it is easier to look for a combined HW/SW solution that is able to maintain the original BW. Each square mm is costing extra money and MS will look for any cost opportunity they can get to make some profit on the console. Those ESRAM speeds are far less then the 320Gbps. I think of the latency issue as a minor issue and I am sure if MS can to 360 BC via a pure software solution they are to do the same with the Scorpio. After all they already have virtualized SW architecture (partitions) in place that could handle different HW profiles in the Hypervisor layer. With such a solution they even could achieve that current games already run better on the new hardware without being patched. Theoretically this is possible.

 

[Samurai G0SU]

quick - Someone make a thread on how open his arms are which confirms ARM support with Xbox Scorpio. Also confirms open space with the background indicated much more RAM than anticipated. What else can someone decipher with this deliberate and specific picture?

Spoiler

lol

 

[Noobcraft]

quick - Someone make a thread on how open his arms are which confirms ARM support with Xbox Scorpio. Also confirms open space with the background indicated much more RAM than anticipated. What else can someone decipher with this deliberate and specific picture?

Spoiler

lol

Pretty sure that's Scorpio gameplay he's teasing us with.

Spoiler

I shouldn't need to do this but /s

 

[krang]

Scorpio is this powerful.

 

[thelastword]

OK, what the hell is going on? How come you're positive in an Xbox thread?

because if the Scorpio fails to live up to the insane hype s/he's encouraging, s/he gets an instant Hall of Shame collection at the end of 2017.

Lol, you guys are too imaginative.....I always wanted the new consoles to sport better CPU's, I wanted it for PRO and also wanted it for Scorpio.......


I did not buy XB1 and have no intention of doing so because of the weak hardware, which launched in 2013. The fact that XB exclusives got weaker this gen soured the pot a bit more....

If Scorpio has a good CPU I will likely buy one, if they can muster some decent exclsuives. The halo collection at 4k 60fps should be good enough, but at that time I should be upgrading my PC to top spec....so it's a decision in balance.....Hell, I wish Xbox had something else like maybe an OTOGI game and some other really good exclusives.....


I had all Xboxes except XB1....XBOG is my favourite.....Shenmue, Otogi, Sega GT, JSRF, Project Gotham, Rallisport, Halo ...Hell, even Kakuto Chojin appealed to me as I love fighters, that console had very unique games.....Best Xbox by far imo...Hope MS can justify a purchase for me with some really good exclusives.....

 

[jmdajr]

Lol, you guys are too imaginative.....I always wanted the new consoles to sport better CPU's, I wanted it for PRO and also wanted it for Scorpio.......


I did not buy XB1 and have no intention of doing so because of the weak hardware which launched in 2013, the fact that XB exclusives got weaker this gen soured the pot a bit more.

If Scorpio has a good CPU I will likely buy one if they can muster some decent exclsuives. The halo collection at 4k 60fps should be good enough, but at that time I should be upgrading my PC to top spec....so it's a decision in balance.....Hell, I wish Xbox had something else like maybe an OTOGI game and some other really good exclusives.....


I had all Xboxes except XB1....XBOG is my favourite.....Shenmue, Otogi, Sega GT, JSRF, Project Gotham, Rallisport, Halo ...Hell, even Kakuto Chojin appealed to me as I love fighters, that console had very unique games.....Best Xbox by far imo...Hope MS can justify a purchase for me with some exclusive games.

I forgot this existed.

 

[LukasTaves]

I don't know how flexible the esram was and if you can just mimic the behavior with "usual" ram. And I don't say it's impossible but I am very, very skeptical.

The leaked documentation from a few years ago said it was just a regular ram, but everything on the gpu side was faster when reading from it.

Pretty much the only particularities about it are the dedicated hardware and apis to help fit the data developers want there and making sure the data is there when needed.

For instance, they could split data even in non regular ways, like storing part of a pixel color (that was going to be used on a extensive write/read shader) in esram and the part that would be read only a few times in the main ram.

So you could split your data inside a buffer/grid, and even on the actual data inside that grid could be split on both rams.

 

[Hawk269]

It's gonna be massively outdated compared to high-end PCs in 10 months' time so MS fans really should stop calling it 'a beast' as that's quite amusing.

A 6TF machine in 10 months time when AMD will drop a 12.5TF Vega graphics cards around June. And then at the end of the year Nvidia might release something even more potent with their Volta cards. That will make Scorpio look like 2 gens old.

You are assuming that the 12.5TF GPU and whatever Nvidia has next are going to be mainstream GPU's. Those are the high end, enthusiast level parts that only a fraction of the user base buys. While the existence of them will out class the Scorpio, you make it sound like everyone will have one of those GPU's in their rig.

For a console, it will be a "beast" of a machine. There will always be tech on the PC side that will outclass it, but donuts to dollars, the cost of a single high end GPU will be more than the price of this "beast" of a console. I should know, I have 2xTitan X Pascal GPU's in my rig and at $1200.00 a pop, it better outclass several consoles ducted taped together.

 

[Hawk269]

LMAO!!!

 

[Space_nut]

It's not a lake, it's a ocean!!

 

[anothertech]

So we already know Stinkles confirmed it's Intel, so probably an 8 core i7 CPU, he's on the water in this picture so confirmed it's water cooled, the black pants probably mean it's an over clocked version, then the curtain in the background and holding up 10 fingers, MS is unveiling the Scorpio in 10 weeks.

Thx again Stinkles. I'll go make the new thread.

 

[c0de]

The leaked documentation from a few years ago said it was just a regular ram, but everything on the gpu side was faster when reading from it.

Pretty much the only particularities about it are the dedicated hardware and apis to help fit the data developers want there and making sure the data is there when needed.

For instance, they could split data even in non regular ways, like storing part of a pixel color (that was going to be used on a extensive write/read shader) in esram and the part that would be read only a few times in the main ram.

So you could split your data inside a buffer/grid, and even on the actual data inside that grid could be split on both rams.

I wish I still had the leaked sdk for Xbox One. There was some information about the esram and how it can be used.

 

[hanspampel]

more stuff for speculation

 

[Space_nut]

more stuff for speculation

Hmm left right intel stronger then before

 

[c0de]

Thanks for the guy sending me the .chm-file from the leaked XDK!

Although outdated, it still is a valuable piece of information (at least to me).

What is in there? First, I replied lately to inuhanyou about the CPU packages in the current consoles and that these are two different CPU packages that can only snoop into each others cache. XDK confirms exactly that:

The CPU

The Xbox One console has two CPU modules, each with its own 2 MB L2 cache and four cores. Each module’s core has its own 32 KB L1 cache.

When a local L2 miss occurs, the Xbox One console probes the adjacent L2 cache through the North Bridge. There is no fast path between the two L2 caches. To avoid cache thrashing, it’s important to maximize sharing of data between cores in a module and minimize sharing between the two CPU modules.

Table 1. Typical latencies for local and remote cache hits.
Cache hit type Latency
Remote L2 hit Approximately 100 cycles
Remote L1 hit Approximately 120 cycles
Local L1 hit
Three cycles for 64-bit values

Five cycles for 128-bit values

Local L2 hit Approximately 30 cycles

So "remote" data is expensive in terms of CPU cycles.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=227544671&postcount=139

Then we have DRAM:

DRAM

The maximum combined read and write bandwidth to DRAM is 68 GB/s (gigabytes per second). The sum of read and write bandwidth to DRAM cannot exceed 68 GB/s. Expect that about 80–85% of that bandwidth—approximately 55 GB/s—will be achievable in practice.

This goes in line with what the one slide from Sony PS4 bandwidth shows us:

140GB/s is quite exactly 80% of the theoretical maximum of Sony's advertised 176GB/s. It can go even lower but that could be due to the way onion and garlic work, who knows if you are not a dev...
So I think it is safe to say that we can expect around 80% of bandwidth of Scorpio for real life applications, being it then at around 240GB/s on a shared bus. Who knows if CPU steals away from that even disproportionally like with PS4.

Another interesting thing is this:

Table 2. Maximum GPU memory bandwidths associated with different types of memory transfers
Source memory Destination memory Maximum read bandwidth (GB/s) Maximum write bandwidth (GB/s) Maximum total bandwidth (GB/s)
ESRAM ESRAM 51.2 51.2 102.4
ESRAM DRAM 68.2 [see note below] 68.2 136.4
DRAM ESRAM 68.2 68.2 136.4
DRAM DRAM 34.1 34.1 68.2

So DRAM <-> DRAM is effectively only half of what is achievable (in the best case!) so this puts DRAM <-> DRAM for Scorpio at half again, making it at best 160GB/s, probably less. Then assume that ESRAM still has way better (lower) latency than DRAM access, I have a hard time believing that this performance gap is solved only by software alone. Especially considering that ESRAM <-> DRAM (and vice versa) is at 136.4 GB/s which is quite close to what we can expect from Scorpio DRAM <-> DRAM access.

Also from the XDK:

ESRAM

[...]

The difference in throughput between ESRAM and main RAM is moderate: 102.4 GB/sec versus 68 GB/sec. The advantages of ESRAM are lower latency and lack of contention from other memory clients—for instance the CPU, I/O, and display output. Low latency is particularly important for sustaining peak performance of the color blocks (CBs) and depth blocks (DBs).

This supports that ESRAM is indeed handled in a special way and the difference is really it being low latency *and* dedicated.

 

[Colbert]

The ESRAM always was presented as a high speed scratch buffer that is dedicated to the GPU to improve overall memory speed. The difference major difference to a normal cache is that the ESRAM is controlled by the developer while a cache is controlled by the hardware.

But keep in mind the ESRAM of the Xbox One only makes up for 0.01 % of the total memory.

 

[thelastword]

I forgot this existed.

Yes, many people do because they were not the best but despite trying to emulate other fighters, in KC case VF, they had their own unique angle.....Kakuto looked great and so if MS expanded those games to 360 or even XB1, they could have improved them significantly.....instead they went behind K.I...

Anyways, footage and a breakdown from Kakuto..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hL0n_6Ouh90


There's also another that many forget, it's called Tao-Feng: Fist of The Lotus........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJSBN5eVs1E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40KKa9Pf_FE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cv6Sl6WMoVI


At least on the OG Xbox, they had exclusives in every genre and they tried to mix it up, but now it seems they're alienating all exclusive parties. Look MS has now lost scalebound...I doubt Insomniac is giving them another exclusive game in a hurry, like SO2, hell Insomniac is back at Sony with spiderman......Then they parted ways with Remedy, so I'm not anticipating an Alan Wake and QB exclusive for them.....Mistwalker didnt' carry over to the XB1, Lionhead is kaput, Bungie is on it's own and the list goes on.. That is such a far cry to the support they had in OG XB days....


With OG XB, you had further exclusives like GunValkyrie, DOA3, Panzer Dragoon and Ninja Gaiden,...they even had Blinx and Voodoo Vince and many titles like that, though the latter two and the fighters I mentioned weren't the best, but at least they had something different in most genres and that was enough, but now, things are looking slim, so I'm wondering how they are going to make things look appealing for the scorpio outside it's hardware capabilities...

 

[a.wd]

Yes, many people do because they were not the best but despite trying to emulate other fighters, in KC case VF, they had their own unique angle.....Kakuto looked great and so if MS expanded those games to 360 or even XB1, they could have improved them significantly.....instead they went behind K.I...

Anyways, footage and a breakdown from Kakuto..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hL0n_6Ouh90


There's also another that many forget, it's called Tao-Feng: Fist of The Lotus........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJSBN5eVs1E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40KKa9Pf_FE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cv6Sl6WMoVI


At least on the OG Xbox, they had exclusives in every genre and they tried to mix it up, but now it seems they're alienating all exclusive parties. Look MS has now lost scalebound...I doubt Insomniac is giving them another exclusive game in a hurry, like SO2, hell Insomniac is back at Sony with spiderman......Then they parted ways with Remedy, so I'm not anticipating an Alan Wake and QB exclusive for them.....Mistwalker didnt' carry over to the XB1, Lionhead is kaput, Bungie is on it's own and the list goes on.. That is such a far cry to the support they had in OG XB days....


With OG XB, you had further exclusives like GunValkyrie, DOA3, Panzer Dragoon and Ninja Gaiden,...they even had Blinx and Voodoo Vince and many titles like that, though the latter two and the fighters I mentioned weren't the best, but at least they had something different in most genres and that was enough, but now, things are looking slim, so I'm wondering how they are going to make things look appealing for the scorpio outside it's hardware capabilities...

You think they made a mistake going with KI and the amazing work that they have achieved with that game rather than going with Kakuto?

Don't get me wrong the glory days of the OG xbox were the highlight of my gaming life, Otogi, JSRFG, GV, Panzer Dragoon the hits kept coming, but seriously? KI is probably the best fighter of this Gen and continues to evolve.

Go after some of the From stuff rather than that, at least that would make sense!