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Peter Moore said: "PlayStation did a brilliant job of FUD-ing Sega and Dreamcast: Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt."
- Thread starter longdi
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SpongebobSquaredance
Unconfirmed Member
I can't agree on that. 2000 was shit and for the most part 2001 wasn't great either but at the very end of the year there were definitely some stellar releases. Silent Hill 2 (
), Devil May Cry, MGS 2, Ace Combat etc. not to mention multiplats like Tony Hawk 3.I agree on the sentiment though, that the Dreamcast had great games released very reguarly and at a quicker pase then with the PS2.
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sainraja
Member
Sony may have or may also have. But the article where the Toy Story comparison conversation started back then, was actually a Microsoft related one...
ChuckeRearmed
Member
Hey, Microsoft, make a deal with Sega and bring Dreamcast emulator to Xbox
SkylineRKR
Member
This has to be a joke. 2 years? You realize thats like late 2002? Dude, Vice City was out already. Which was the second 3D GTA game. What I try to say is, the PS2 had some of the most defining games within the year. GTA 3, GT3, MGS2 and more all released after a year. And the console itself launched with Tekken Tag 1 which I consider one of the best fighting games of all time. But okay, PS2 haz no games.
As for MGS2 killing DC, lol no. PS2 was simply a more powerful system and PS1 simply delivered and wasn't abandoned. Everyone with half a brain could see that PS2 had far more potential despite a slow start (everyone knew FF, Tekken, GT etc would all end up on PS2). Yeah it didn't support 480p like DC (TV's didn't either) and DC had clear IQ because of AA but let me tell you again there is NO DC game looking as good as TTT, RRV, FIFA 2000 and SSX. Those were launch games. DC games don't have the fidelity, and just not the overall texture work. If you go a step further, with GT3, AC4, God of War and MGS2 and 3 then its even getting ridiculous.
Now, DC fans will usually come up with Ecco, Headhunter (awful piece of shit game, excellent OST), Crazy Taxi and DoA2 looking better on DC. And this is true, though almost no one gave a fuck about those games. But the interesting fact to me was, PS2 could do Naomi ports despite not being similar to the hardware at all. There are also competent ones, like VF4 Evo (the OG had aliasing issues). Which is even ported off Naomi 2. Could DC run System 246 games like Tekken 4 and SC2 just as decent? I doubt it. Those games have a certain fidelity, lighting and detail as well I never found in any DC game.
The only thing I agree with is the launch of the Dreamcast. It had everything I wanted from fighting, to racing, to adventures, sports, arcade sports. Basically most genres were covered. DC launch is one of my fondest gaming memories. It was the perfect time, I turned 18, had some cash, went to college and had a bunch of friends who were into DC as well.
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Who knew that Sega fanboys are still bitter after 20 years. FMD. The botched Saturn and 32x had Sega reeling. Sony had nothing to do with it. Peter Moore is an idiot if he thinks Sony did too much. They marketed the ps2 on the back of the wildly successful ps1.
people knew what was coming to the ps2 and it looked like a continuation of what they were already liking So. The consumers were prepared to wait. And they were not disappointed. Within a year they got not just good games. They got seminal games. GT3. GTA3. FFXetc. If Sony had an inkling of what was coming they probs undersold the ps2.
people knew what was coming to the ps2 and it looked like a continuation of what they were already liking So. The consumers were prepared to wait. And they were not disappointed. Within a year they got not just good games. They got seminal games. GT3. GTA3. FFXetc. If Sony had an inkling of what was coming they probs undersold the ps2.
PhaseJump
Banned
I love Sega, but let's get fucking real here.
Sega is an arcade game company that dropped support for Genesis Sega CD, 32X, Nomad, SMS, Game Gear, when they were still profitable.
They then dropped the Saturn support before Dreamcast was even ready.
At the same time they allowed Yu Suzuki to burn all of their money on a console game project in development hell, Shenmue. Rather than getting him to develop more of the arcade games that put them on the map to begin with. Sony's marketing didn't have to do much to inspire FUD. Sega did that all on it's own.
Sega is an arcade game company that dropped support for Genesis Sega CD, 32X, Nomad, SMS, Game Gear, when they were still profitable.
They then dropped the Saturn support before Dreamcast was even ready.
At the same time they allowed Yu Suzuki to burn all of their money on a console game project in development hell, Shenmue. Rather than getting him to develop more of the arcade games that put them on the map to begin with. Sony's marketing didn't have to do much to inspire FUD. Sega did that all on it's own.
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SpongebobSquaredance
Unconfirmed Member
ehh not exactly games that show superiority for the Playstation. Especially RR5 received much critisism for its look back then. There are plenty DC games that can rival those. If it would be MGS2, SH2 or God of War, then now we would be talking.
Mr. Blonde
Member
PS2 was overhyped, but by the time it came out in usa a lot of the hype was gone or criticized due to the system underwhelming at launch in japan with rr v and tekken tag being jaggy and arguably not as imressive as soul calibur for dc in many ways, people’s expectations had largely been tempered by hearing fans of dreamcst/gamecube/xbox rightly criticize it (ign dc had a big article by brandon justice i think comparing it to the disappointing MI2 that came out summer 2000), also e3 was largely a big hit to the expectations as good as metal gear solid 2 the rest of the lineup wasnt too impressive, and mgs2 was still a year away from usa launch…also the overall launch lineup was not super thrilling, for example madden 2001 looked amazing but dc had nfl 2k1 which looked good too and played as good or better and did i mention online play? may have been 56k modem but playing nfl 2k1 was a blast as long as your opponent did not become a crybaby quitter haha..it want until 2001 where ps2 really hit its stride and had the great showing at e3 and then hit after hit (metal gear solid 2, devil may cry, silent hill 2, jak and daxter, tony hawk 3, final fantasy x, gran turismo 3, twisted metal black, a little surprise masterpiece called Ico!!, and biggest of all, GTA3!! Not to mention GTA3 and a year later GTA Vice City, were Ps2 exclusive until fall 2003. GTA3 was probably that gen’s Goldeneye, the game that seemingly came out of nowhere to all but the hardcore gamers and spread like wildfire thru word of mouth due to its excellence and addicting gameplay.
SEGA abandoned us January 2001. It really stung to me because I only got a dreamcast Christmas 2000 bc it was on sale for $100 ($150 with $50 rebate). So it sucked to get this nice new system, and find out one afternoon that Sega is abandoning it 16 months after launch and developing the new Virtua Fighter for PS2 instead of Dreamcast!!
Having said that, Dreamcast had an amazing lineup, the year 2000 releases constitute one of the best single year releases for a system ever. The other years had amazing games as well, and while true that many were arcade ports (especially fighters and racers), the system had plenty of non-arcade games, and was the first home console to come with a modem and have a dedicated online service that wasn’t even that expensive.
As mentioned above, the Dreamcast had tons of arcade games especially fighters. Soul Calibur was an amazing launch game, Dead or Alive 2 from tecmo was a great beginning of 2000 game, Virtua Fighter 3 tb finally gave us the long-awaited port of VF3 from the Model 3 arcade hardware that had sparked debate for basically the entire time between it came out and came to Dreamcast about which system it would arrive on, and some excellent non-fighter arcade ports included Crazy Taxi, Virtua Tennis, and the Dreamcast Daytona.
And I haven’t forgotten: the Dreamcast was chock full of amazing Capcom fighters!! Street Fighter 3 (1 and 2, then 3rd strike later), Street Fighter Alpha 3, Marvel vs Capcom 1 and 2, Capcom vs SNK, Tech Romancer, Power Stone 1 and 2, and some excellent non arcade games like Resident Evil Code Veronica.
Best of all…the best game on the system, the best game of the year 2000…Jet Set Radio. Omg what a game! (And Why oh why did they name it Jet Grind Radio stateside? lol). Jet Set Radio is the literal definition of killer app, and it’s crazy that Best Buy had it for $10 new the summer after it came out (came out fall 2000, best buy had it marked down to $10 summer 2001, just weeks before the good feelings and good times of the 1990s officially ended on 9/11).
Like many here, I too still have my Dreamcast and am very proud of the 40 or so game collection I have amassed over the years. Sega royally disappointed me and many others by pulling the plug on the system too soon, and it’s unfortunate that a few big name publishers either avoided the system altogether(looking at you, Electronic (F)arts! lol) or only published the D-tier games and saved the A and B tiers for PS2 and Xbox (Konami would be a good example here). My only regrets are that I sat on the fence for a while rather than buying a Dreamcast at launch, and rented most of the excellent Capcom fighters but did not buy most until years later. It’s hard to think about how 20 years ago, the fall of 2000, I could have walked into Target and bought Power Stone 2 and Marvel vs Capcom 2 and Street Fighter 3 brand new for $40-50 each, whereas now you have to hunt them down online and pay a pretty penny for a used copy of these games!
I ended up buying all 4 systems of that generation (Dreamcast, PS2, Gamecube, and Xbox) and have good memories of amazing games from each, and the Dreamcast lineup for the year and a half or so before Sega went third party was an amazing run that may never be fully duplicated again! Cheers to the Dreamcast and its excellent games.
SEGA abandoned us January 2001. It really stung to me because I only got a dreamcast Christmas 2000 bc it was on sale for $100 ($150 with $50 rebate). So it sucked to get this nice new system, and find out one afternoon that Sega is abandoning it 16 months after launch and developing the new Virtua Fighter for PS2 instead of Dreamcast!!
Having said that, Dreamcast had an amazing lineup, the year 2000 releases constitute one of the best single year releases for a system ever. The other years had amazing games as well, and while true that many were arcade ports (especially fighters and racers), the system had plenty of non-arcade games, and was the first home console to come with a modem and have a dedicated online service that wasn’t even that expensive.
As mentioned above, the Dreamcast had tons of arcade games especially fighters. Soul Calibur was an amazing launch game, Dead or Alive 2 from tecmo was a great beginning of 2000 game, Virtua Fighter 3 tb finally gave us the long-awaited port of VF3 from the Model 3 arcade hardware that had sparked debate for basically the entire time between it came out and came to Dreamcast about which system it would arrive on, and some excellent non-fighter arcade ports included Crazy Taxi, Virtua Tennis, and the Dreamcast Daytona.
And I haven’t forgotten: the Dreamcast was chock full of amazing Capcom fighters!! Street Fighter 3 (1 and 2, then 3rd strike later), Street Fighter Alpha 3, Marvel vs Capcom 1 and 2, Capcom vs SNK, Tech Romancer, Power Stone 1 and 2, and some excellent non arcade games like Resident Evil Code Veronica.
Best of all…the best game on the system, the best game of the year 2000…Jet Set Radio. Omg what a game! (And Why oh why did they name it Jet Grind Radio stateside? lol). Jet Set Radio is the literal definition of killer app, and it’s crazy that Best Buy had it for $10 new the summer after it came out (came out fall 2000, best buy had it marked down to $10 summer 2001, just weeks before the good feelings and good times of the 1990s officially ended on 9/11).
Like many here, I too still have my Dreamcast and am very proud of the 40 or so game collection I have amassed over the years. Sega royally disappointed me and many others by pulling the plug on the system too soon, and it’s unfortunate that a few big name publishers either avoided the system altogether(looking at you, Electronic (F)arts! lol) or only published the D-tier games and saved the A and B tiers for PS2 and Xbox (Konami would be a good example here). My only regrets are that I sat on the fence for a while rather than buying a Dreamcast at launch, and rented most of the excellent Capcom fighters but did not buy most until years later. It’s hard to think about how 20 years ago, the fall of 2000, I could have walked into Target and bought Power Stone 2 and Marvel vs Capcom 2 and Street Fighter 3 brand new for $40-50 each, whereas now you have to hunt them down online and pay a pretty penny for a used copy of these games!
I ended up buying all 4 systems of that generation (Dreamcast, PS2, Gamecube, and Xbox) and have good memories of amazing games from each, and the Dreamcast lineup for the year and a half or so before Sega went third party was an amazing run that may never be fully duplicated again! Cheers to the Dreamcast and its excellent games.
captainraincoat
Banned
I got a launch Dreamcast and it ticked so many boxes for me but the Australian release was a puzzle piece of launch titles and an overpriced entry point
this coming off the 32x and Saturn which by gamer standards at the time...were failures it simply wasn’t attractive enough to many and they fucked up at the worst possible time as Sony swooped in and pretty much ate up the user base
Sony wasn’t the dreamcasts cause of death ....sega themselves were.....Sony just happened to have their running shoes on when they dropped the baton.
this coming off the 32x and Saturn which by gamer standards at the time...were failures it simply wasn’t attractive enough to many and they fucked up at the worst possible time as Sony swooped in and pretty much ate up the user base
Sony wasn’t the dreamcasts cause of death ....sega themselves were.....Sony just happened to have their running shoes on when they dropped the baton.
rnlval
Member
Unlike Sony's Playstation platform, MS-DOS and Windows OS platforms enable PC hardware cloners to have a unified software + boot loader ecosystem which resulted in healthy PC hardware market competition. Your argument is hypocritical.
Alan Wake
Member
Moore is not blaming anyone, he's offering an explanation. He's an intelligent man, of course he knows that Sony's FUD strategy is not the only explanation to Dreamcast's failure. But it's a part of it.
Alan Wake
Member
By then the Dreamcast was already dead, though. It was before the PS2 launch the Dreamcast had its chance and it was then the hype train for the PS2 did its job. People waited for Sony's console instead of giving the Dreamcast a chance.
Alan Wake
Member
The Dreamcast had 18 months on the market . I'd argue it was probably the best 18 months any console has had, packed with amazing and/or innovative games like Shenmue, Phantasy Star Online, Samba de Amigo, Metropolis Street Racer, Jet Set Radio, Soul Calibur, Rez, RE Code: Veronica and many others. They really tried to get it going. In Japan they launched both a karaoke add on and a webcam (the DreamEye), so the plan was obviously for Dreamcast to be a home entertainment machine for the whole family.
SkylineRKR
Member
The Dreamcast released lots of games in such a short span. There were like 2 Shenmue games, 2 SA games, 2 Power stones...
But in the end the system couldn't do that much. Online play was pretty much non existant in EU releases. The music player was bad. And I think the durability of the system was shit. The fan and disc drive made a ton of noise, and it was prone to shutdowns. I'm still a fan of the Saturn design (had one for over a decade, never failed) and the DC felt cheap compared to it. Same goes for the controller, D-pad and buttons were awful. Triggers were awful and would break in. Stick was awful too. I don't get why they went a version of the Nights pad, it had superior buttons and D-pad.
If you read about Sega's original pitches, they wanted to create something different. With DVD, more emphasis on online, DLC, AI learning etc. Limited budget kept them from doing so.
Those were launch games, and they all had effects and texture work later gen DC games couldn't match. MGS2 came out a year later and shut down all doubts.
TTT, the US version, has an impressive IQ. And those backgrounds, I haven't seen a DC game looking that good. RRV, bar its aliasing, I think looked amazing and ran at 60fps. Underrated because the PS2 was slammed at launch for not launching nukes. SSX was hailed as one of the most impressive looking games that year. It seems I meant FIFA 2001, the animations and facial details weren't in any DC game. Maybe NBA 2K which is likely the most impressive DC game I have seen but the players seem to feature lower poly count.
But in the end the system couldn't do that much. Online play was pretty much non existant in EU releases. The music player was bad. And I think the durability of the system was shit. The fan and disc drive made a ton of noise, and it was prone to shutdowns. I'm still a fan of the Saturn design (had one for over a decade, never failed) and the DC felt cheap compared to it. Same goes for the controller, D-pad and buttons were awful. Triggers were awful and would break in. Stick was awful too. I don't get why they went a version of the Nights pad, it had superior buttons and D-pad.
If you read about Sega's original pitches, they wanted to create something different. With DVD, more emphasis on online, DLC, AI learning etc. Limited budget kept them from doing so.
Those were launch games, and they all had effects and texture work later gen DC games couldn't match. MGS2 came out a year later and shut down all doubts.
TTT, the US version, has an impressive IQ. And those backgrounds, I haven't seen a DC game looking that good. RRV, bar its aliasing, I think looked amazing and ran at 60fps. Underrated because the PS2 was slammed at launch for not launching nukes. SSX was hailed as one of the most impressive looking games that year. It seems I meant FIFA 2001, the animations and facial details weren't in any DC game. Maybe NBA 2K which is likely the most impressive DC game I have seen but the players seem to feature lower poly count.
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Silver Wattle
Gold Member
You guys are using "F.U.D" wrong.
octiny
Banned
Um, what?
It was Sega that told EA to get "rekt".
EA wanted no other sports games outside of their own on the Dreamcast. Sega said no, and because of that some of the greatest sports game ever were born (at the time). EA was butt hurt.
Not only were their games inferior compared to the 2K series, they were so butt hurt that they decided go after the NFL license (failed w/ the NBA license).
Imagine selling the better football game, NFL 2K5 for $20 on release day, while EA charged $60 for an inferior game. From a critics standpoint, Sega/Visual Concepts was still on top with NFL 2K long after the dreamcast was gone.
Whether that decision impacted Dreamcast in the end is besides the point, as I'm just correcting your statement.
Link
Alan Wake
Member
I don't know about the failure rates of the Dreamcast, would be interesting to know, but I've never had any issues with my DC consoles (I have a few since I'm a collector). I do agree that the controller wasn't that good, though, and today it feels awkward to use due to the lack of a second thumbstick. The triggers were pretty bad, as well as the thumbstick. Back then I didn't care that much, I've never been a fan of the DualShock so it wasn't until the Gamecube and Xbox launched that I felt there were actually superior controllers out there.
Sega did create something different. The plans for the Dreamcast didn't materialise, but apart from SegaNet/Dreamarena, if you look at what they did in Japan with the karaoke and webcam peripherals you could see they were aiming for the Dreamcast to become a party machine for the whole family. Sadly, these peripherals never came to real use before it was all over.
LarknThe4th
Member
Every story of Segas denies has to start with the Saturn, from their a collection of smaller issues hurt them beyond that point Sony overhype of the PS2 is certainly in their but it isnt the main reason it wouldnt even make top 3
Data Ghost
Member
Didn't particularly like it either to be honest, way over rated in my opinion. I had a Dreamcast as well and enjoyed it far more.
Thirty7ven
Banned
Right it was Sega that told EA to get rekt even though they were the ones with a platform that needed third party support, a platform that crashed and burned because it didn't have enough third party support. Yeah Sega saying "oh we wanna have the sports market too" and EA saying "Then we're out" is Sega telling EA to get rekt. What happened after? DC bombed and Sega got rekt.
You ain't correcting shit unfortunately as Sega invited EA to support the system, EA had conditions Sega didn't want to meet, and guess what? EA didn't budge.
After the monumental failure of the 32x and Saturn, Sega should've learned not to overreach. But they were run by fools who got lucky once
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Alan Wake
Member
Sony did what they should do to win, I don't see Moore saying anything else. It's just matter of fact.
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
Sony feature branding is on a league of its own. You know what they call the upscaling functionality on Bravia? Reality Creation. And so on.
Papacheeks
Banned
The dreamcast didn't kill sega, Sega of Japan killed sega. Look it up, they literally made hardware without software being made for it at the same time. Developers had no say in what they made, and had less than 8 months with the hardware like the SATURN to make software for launch.
If sega had early prototypes of the dreamcast hardware in their arcades already. They could have had something in 96-97.
assurdum
Banned
Wut? No one thinking Sony has reinvented 3d audio with tempest engine, the hell is that shit. Such crazy narrative around this matter remind me Illuminati conspiracy or creepypasta in the net
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longdi
Banned
But somehow their fanbase is immune to their 'PR buzzword'?
To them, Sony buzzword = reality. Others buzzword = PR buzzword.
tempest engine, cache scrubber, continuous boost, coherency engines..
Thats the type of 2nd hand Fud i saw during DC and 360 years.
While Fud alone didnt killed DC, it contributed to it, just like 2nd hand smoke gives you a higher chance of lung cancer
shoplifter
Member
Anecdotally, every Gamestop/EB I'd go in at the time there were employees telling people to not buy DCs and just wait for the PS2. I have to assume it didn't help, when combined with Sega's ineptitude. It's still one of (possibly #1) my favorite consoles ever. It was a real enthusiast's machine.
longdi
Banned
For me, not gamestop/eb, but the game forums i visited, every fans were doing the same thing, wait for ps2. Those days, every of them was trying to convince those on the fence that ps2 is way more powerful than dc. And years later, they were trying to convince ps2 is closer to xbox that it really is.
2nd hand fud is most digusting fud imo.
assurdum
Banned
I don't know what forum you visit but seriously in what universe Sony has convinced ps2 is more powerful of the Xbox og? It's really bizzarre and uncommon to hear. A lot here seem to have a long story of bizzarre personal experiences about Sony and his communication.For me, not gamestop/eb, but the game forums i visited, every fans were doing the same thing, wait for ps2. Those days, every of them was trying to convince those on the fence that ps2 is way more powerful than dc. And years later, they were trying to convince ps2 is closer to xbox that it really is.
2nd hand fud is most digusting fud imo.
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longdi
Banned
assurdum
Banned
Fans are all the same, Sony, MS or Nintendo, recognise the reality is no that tough by the way if we are really interested to the matter . Honestly I never heard a single fan substain PS2 was more powerful of the Xbox, personally. So I don't know what's the point to report such bizzarre personal experiences here.they = sony fans
closer to != more powerful
stop putting words in my mouth?
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longdi
Banned
and do you see me say 'ps2 fans were saying ps2 was more powerful than xbox?
please show me.
TheContact
Member
I love the Dreamcast. It's easily one of my favorite consoles (my 1st gen one still works!), but let's not pretend Sega did themselves any favors with the Saturn or the DC.
Alan Wake
Member
You're reading too much into it. And no, he's not at EA. He's left the business and is now working for Liverpool FC.
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SpongebobSquaredance
Unconfirmed Member
lets put things into perspective. what would have the dreamcast archived in the best possible scenario, as in:
- Sega was healthy business wise
- wordwide release in 1998
- new controller released in 2001/2002 with two sticks and more buttons
- some sort of double layer GD-Rom released in 2001/2002
- continued first party support
With that in mind I still see the Dreamcast struggle post 2003. They definitely needed a successor in 2004 at the latest.
Sales of 25-30 million I see as realistic in this scenario. Probably would have sold it as a low budget entry into 6th gen because hardware wise it was behind the xbox and gc way to much. Multiplats would have been released on a case to case basis. Most multiplats in 2001/2002 would run on the Dreamcast (titles like Pro Skater 3, Dave Mirra 2, Burnout 1 or Spy Hunter) but games like MGS2 definitely needed to be reworked to run. After 2002 it gets difficult. That means Sega needed a good first party output to make the platform interesting enough.
- Sega was healthy business wise
- wordwide release in 1998
- new controller released in 2001/2002 with two sticks and more buttons
- some sort of double layer GD-Rom released in 2001/2002
- continued first party support
With that in mind I still see the Dreamcast struggle post 2003. They definitely needed a successor in 2004 at the latest.
Sales of 25-30 million I see as realistic in this scenario. Probably would have sold it as a low budget entry into 6th gen because hardware wise it was behind the xbox and gc way to much. Multiplats would have been released on a case to case basis. Most multiplats in 2001/2002 would run on the Dreamcast (titles like Pro Skater 3, Dave Mirra 2, Burnout 1 or Spy Hunter) but games like MGS2 definitely needed to be reworked to run. After 2002 it gets difficult. That means Sega needed a good first party output to make the platform interesting enough.
SpecialAgentZ
Member
Astroturfing was/is waaay more damaging imo. It still happens today, even in gaming forums. And it's not easy to tell when it's an astroturfer or a legit insider/engineer/dev/tech savvy/brand fanboy.
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StormCell
Member
I guess I find that surprising. I'll admit that I don't follow Sony announcements like a dedicated fanboy, so I may not be picking up on their attitude shift post-PS3. As someone who was once a Nintendo fanboy, I used to feel threatened by Sony Playstation. For one, Sony's feelings regarding Nintendo were pretty brazen twenty years ago. I've been sure that even today Sony dislikes Nintendo. I believe we've seen some of this in the form of Monster Hunter games not releasing in North America for up to a year after the Japan release, and then there's Persona 5 not releasing on Switch just because. Frankly, I suspect that a collective of Japanese video game companies are still not terribly cozy with Nintendo. Today, I can recognize that that is largely Nintendo's fault, though.
Still, if civil order ever falls in Japan, I expect there will be a large ninja/shogun battle between Sony and Nintendo. Their animosities have just been stewing quietly all these years.
Salvatron
Member
I distinctly remember visiting my friend's house who had the dreamcast (I had the ps2), and he pulled out one of those CD binders packed with pirated games.
Alan Wake
Member
It would have been interesting to see if the Dreamcast could have been marketed as a priceworthy family and party machine, almost as the Wii, with motion controllers for more games than just Samba de Amigo, the karaoke add-on (think SingStar), the webcam Dreameye and so on.
spookyfish
Member
Moore complaining about someone else’s FUD. I’ve seen everything. Dude was nothing but a talking showboat.
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