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Peter Moore said: "PlayStation did a brilliant job of FUD-ing Sega and Dreamcast: Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt."

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SOE, SOA and SOJ constant infighting.

That's a myth pegged by Tom, just like his utter bullcrap over SEGA having a chance to work with SONY.
It wasn't like SONY America or SONY Japan didn't have fights themself with the naming and pricing of the PS in the USA and Canada. Which led to SONY Japan firing most of the top staff at Sony Canda and Olafsson walking.

All subsidies will have disagreements
 
Dreamcast had no EA support which was a huge thing back then.

I don't think it hurt SEGA America that much TBH. SEGA America sports games were just so much better. It was a killer in Europe mind since neither SEGA Japan nor Sega Europe could make a decent football game and SONY had Fifa and Pro Evo. All the more madding since SOJ made the wonderful World Wide Soccer series on the Saturn. I've got to say SEGA Europe was run by muppets at the time of the DC.
 
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nush

Member
That's a myth pegged by Tom, just like his utter bullcrap over SEGA having a chance to work with SONY.
It wasn't like SONY America or SONY Japan didn't have fights themself with the naming and pricing of the PS in the USA and Canada. Which led to SONY Japan firing most of the top staff at Sony Canda and Olafsson walking.

All subsidies will have disagreements

It's absolutely true and documented from many sources.
 
It's absolutely true and documented from many sources.

Provide them then. It is little more than arguments overpricing, which all have subsidiaries have The only corp with access and a deal with SONY for the PS was Nintendo.
Tom Kalinske just can't admit that he called it wrong and thought the price of the 32X would win the day.
 

MastaKiiLA

Member
I don't agree with Moore's assessment on why the Dreamcast for Dreamcasted.
  1. Sega was bleeding cash. Poor decision after poor decision kept shortening the days that company could survive, and the DC was widely known to be the last-ditch effort to remain viable in the console sector. They biffed that one hard due to:
  2. The console was underpowered against the PS2 and GC. Moore, probably correctly, thought that the best chance to beat Sony and Nintendo in a generation was to launch before both, and build a userbase. As a result, the DC was the 3rd most powerful system. It showed in almost all of its games. This didn't require FUD to be seen, you just needed a pair of functioning eyeballs. Among enthusiasts, that early launch amounted to nothing, as many of us waited to see what Sony and Nintendo were bringing to the table. Both shattered the Dreamcast's best efforts, and this was at a time where each iteration in graphics tech brought noticeable improvements. That early launch didn't sell nearly enough systems to stave off the inevitable beatdown that ensued. It also wasn't helped by:
  3. The games just weren't cutting it. A strong library of arcade hits, like Sega Rally and VF4, weren't faithfully replicated on the home console. Whether it was their irrational desire to hold onto the floundering arcade business, or just plain stupidity (I'd say it was a mix of both), they made home hardware that couldn't run the arcade games at full beans. I believe the arcade units were the equivalent of 2 DCs running in parallel. This meant that they were losing money on a rapidly shrinking arcade business, and not making any of it up with subpar home ports. Compare that to Sony who had the Tekken and Time Crisis franchises replicated extremely well by the home console. The arcade boards Namco was using for their games were much closer to the home consoles than what Sega was using for their arcade games. On top of that, Sega seemed to hinge all their hopes on a boondoggle of a Yu Suzuki vanity project, Shenmue, when they should have just told the old codger to shutup and make another Virtua Fighter. Just stupid decision after stupid decision.
Sega was a poorly-run company. Looking at them today, I feel like that still holds true. They haven't leveraged the things that have made them great in the past, their arcade library. Instead of turning into a hit-making software company (something Nintendo could do with incredible ease), they've turned into an also-ran developer that many on here think will be bought out any day now. Peter Moore's claims ring hollow if you lived through the Saturn and DC eras, which weren't all that different. The DC was a more competent attempt than the Saturn, but didn't reap much better rewards for the company.

I don't expect Moore to admit that the company he helmed completely blew it, and tripped over their own feet 2 generations in a row. Hell, for all I know, he was beholden to incompetents in the Japanese office, who couldn't get out of their own way when trying to compete against a rapidly strengthening juggernaut in Sony. However, I don't believe for a second that Sony killed the DC through FUD. There was simply no need for it. You also didn't see the GC meet a similar fate, and it came out after the PS2 was able to hit the ground running. The GC wasn't all the impressive technologically either, but it had what the DC did not, strong and smart management, and a solid library of exclusives. It's why Nintendo was able to easily exit the technology arms race, and still continue to be profitable with less-powerful hardware. They make games. They make fun games. No amount of FUD can detract from that.
 
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nush

Member
Provide them then. It is little more than arguments overpricing, which all have subsidiaries have The only corp with access and a deal with SONY for the PS was Nintendo.
Tom Kalinske just can't admit that he called it wrong and thought the price of the 32X would win the day.
You dismiss your own source becuse it does not fit your head cannon, why bother having a circular argument with a millitant Sega fan? I was there and I've worked for multinationals since, wasn't the same thing arguing about launch dates and pricing.
 

Darklor01

Might need to stop sniffing glue
When I picked up and played Resident Evil: Code Veronica on DC, I was blown away! Loved Crazy Taxi and many other games on it. Add-ons like the Tamagachi insert for the controller and other things about it furthered they love.

PS2 was a brilliant console which had a lot going for it. Mainly the very affordable DVD player. Sony was smart. They introduced the affordable DVD player, and affordable Blu-Ray player (for their own purposes on the Blu-Ray).

MS introduced the affordable HD-DVD player.

What really killed Sega was too many pieces of hardware (some failed hardware), ..That 32x and the Saturn situation... oof.
 

longdi

Banned
I don't agree with Moore's assessment on why the Dreamcast for Dreamcasted.
  1. Sega was bleeding cash. Poor decision after poor decision kept shortening the days that company could survive, and the DC was widely known to be the last-ditch effort to remain viable in the console sector. They biffed that one hard due to:
  2. The console was underpowered against the PS2 and GC. Moore, probably correctly, thought that the best chance to beat Sony and Nintendo in a generation was to launch before both, and build a userbase. As a result, the DC was the 3rd most powerful system. It showed in almost all of its games. This didn't require FUD to be seen, you just needed a pair of functioning eyeballs. Among enthusiasts, that early launch amounted to nothing, as many of us waited to see what Sony and Nintendo were bringing to the table. Both shattered the Dreamcast's best efforts, and this was at a time where each iteration in graphics tech brought noticeable improvements. That early launch didn't sell nearly enough systems to stave off the inevitable beatdown that ensued. It also wasn't helped by:
  3. The games just weren't cutting it. A strong library of arcade hits, like Sega Rally and VF4, weren't faithfully replicated on the home console. Whether it was their irrational desire to hold onto the floundering arcade business, or just plain stupidity (I'd say it was a mix of both), they made home hardware that couldn't run the arcade games at full beans. I believe the arcade units were the equivalent of 2 DCs running in parallel. This meant that they were losing money on a rapidly shrinking arcade business, and not making any of it up with subpar home ports. Compare that to Sony who had the Tekken and Time Crisis franchises replicated extremely well by the home console. The arcade boards Namco was using for their games were much closer to the home consoles than what Sega was using for their arcade games. On top of that, Sega seemed to hinge all their hopes on a boondoggle of a Yu Suzuki vanity project, Shenmue, when they should have just told the old codger to shutup and make another Virtua Fighter. Just stupid decision after stupid decision.
Sega was a poorly-run company. Looking at them today, I feel like that still holds true. They haven't leveraged the things that have made them great in the past, their arcade library. Instead of turning into a hit-making software company (something Nintendo could do with incredible ease), they've turned into an also-ran developer that many on here think will be bought out any day now. Peter Moore's claims ring hollow if you lived through the Saturn and DC eras, which weren't all that different. The DC was a more competent attempt than the Saturn, but didn't reap much better rewards for the company.

I don't expect Moore to admit that the company he helmed completely blew it, and tripped over their own feet 2 generations in a row. Hell, for all I know, he was beholden to incompetents in the Japanese office, who couldn't get out of their own way when trying to compete against a rapidly strengthening juggernaut in Sony. However, I don't believe for a second that Sony killed the DC through FUD. There was simply no need for it. You also didn't see the GC meet a similar fate, and it came out after the PS2 was able to hit the ground running. The GC wasn't all the impressive technologically either, but it had what the DC did not, strong and smart management, and a solid library of exclusives. It's why Nintendo was able to easily exit the technology arms race, and still continue to be profitable with less-powerful hardware. They make games. They make fun games. No amount of FUD can detract from that.

Wrt to power, yes ps2 was overall more powerful, since it came 18 months later iirc.

But the DC was no slouch, in that, the potential of it was not fully tapped. Its about being lighter and smarter. Would it make games with more raw polygons and particles effects than PS2? Probably not.

But DC has a secret sauce in its deferred rendering design, that helps to mitigate the short fall in raw rendering power, by rendering what's needed to be seen!

DC can also render in full 480p while PS2 had to make extra efforts because of its small vram design

Iirc PS2 have very high fillrate, but it lacks modern gpu multi texturing features that DC had, so that big fillrates was used for textures or you have less detailed textures but more polygons and particles.
 
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Blood Borne

Member
Dreamcast was a shit console compared to its rivals. Really tired of this revisionist rose tinted glasses narrative.

It had just one analog stick, crappy storage media (just 1GB), weak 3rd party support. Sure, it had some decent 1st party games but that was it. It was outmatched both in games and hardware in comparison to its competitors.

Dreamcast sucked.
 

DunDunDunpachi

Patient MembeR
Notice how the third parties are never blamed. These same third-parties stomp their feet and threaten to pull 100s of millions in business if they don't get their way. EA, Activision, Konami, NAMCO, etc did a brilliant job of FUDing SEGA and abandoning them. Sony (and Microsoft) just reaped some of the benefit when they got taken out.
 

Punished Miku

Gold Member
I got a Dreamcast at launch. Worst console I ever bought. I don't understand the revisionist history about that piece of shit being anything special. Maybe I just got the "wrong" games but whatever, never had that problem with any other console.
I got Dreamcast at launch. We were literally going to the arcade to play fighting games at that point, and then we got Dreamcast. We had all our friends over to play Soul Calibur nearly every day for 2 years and it was some of the best gaming of my life.
 
I got Dreamcast at launch. We were literally going to the arcade to play fighting games at that point, and then we got Dreamcast. We had all our friends over to play Soul Calibur nearly every day for 2 years and it was some of the best gaming of my life.

I didn't get into Soul Calibur until the sequel, me and my friends played it on Gamecube and XBOX and we had a blast, so I definitely empathize, to this day my favorite fighting game.
 
You dismiss your own source becuse it does not fit your head cannon, why bother having a circular argument with a millitant Sega fan? I was there and I've worked for multinationals since, wasn't the same thing arguing about launch dates and pricing.
[/QUOTE]

So you can't Lets see what key people at SEGA America at to say on their working relationship with Japan

Marty Franz

24692912682_8cea358b46_k.jpg


Scott Bayless

24182546874_c05c7d7e38_k.jpg


And the late great Joe Miller

I can only speak from a personal perspective, based on my relationships and meetings, and I never saw a deteriorating side of that. There was a lot of consternation in the latter days, when we had the real issues surrounding the timing of the launch of Saturn and the competing platforms out there, what we were doing, and what our strategy was with respect to getting better 32X penetration with third parties, etc. We had many serious conversations, but we never lost the personal and professional respect that we had garnered during the salad days, the growth years when we were exceeding expectations and meeting or beating the numbers we had committed to. I’d say that the rhetoric around the deteriorating relationship is probably overblown a little bit, based on what I’ve read. Nakayama-san and SOJ knew they had a strong, proven management team in place at SOA, and while everyone was concerned about growing the business, neither side lost confidence in the other.
 

MastaKiiLA

Member
Wrt to power, yes ps2 was overall more powerful, since it came 18 months later iirc.

But the DC was no slouch, in that, the potential of it was not fully tapped. Its about being lighter and smarter. Would it make games with more raw polygons and particles effects than PS2? Probably not.

But DC has a secret sauce in its deferred rendering design, that helps to mitigate the short fall in raw rendering power, by rendering what's needed to be seen!
Correct. PVR (or was it PSVR?) was brand new to the console space, and relatively new to the PC space. It should have helped to mitigate some of the power disparity, but we never saw that come to fruition. My memory fails me, but I don't remember any games performing better on the DC than the PS2, and developers quickly shifted focus to PS2 games only. The uncertainty surrounding Sega as a hardware company, and their known penchant for abandoning hardware (which was proven again with the DC), meant that devs had low confidence in the machine. Perhaps it was a self-fulfilling prophecy, which resulted in a cascade of woe. Either way, I just don't believe that FUD was responsible for the demise of the DC. Sega have no one but themselves to blame for that system failing. Nintendo's continued success destroys any argument that FUD can destroy a system. The Switch is selling like gangbusters, and it's vastly underpowered compared to other machines in the same space. Quality games can overcome any power deficit.
 

cireza

Member
We all know how Sony communicate and market their console, nothing new here.
We also know how SEGA wasted its money back then.
And how major third parties did not support the console.

The Dreamcast remains the best console of the bunch from this generation. Deserves its place below my HD TV, next to the Wii U or the Xbox Series.
 

Punished Miku

Gold Member
So you can't Lets see what key people at SEGA America at to say on their working relationship with Japan

Marty Franz

24692912682_8cea358b46_k.jpg


Scott Bayless

24182546874_c05c7d7e38_k.jpg


And the late great Joe Miller
The cracker of remembrance receives a tickle from the command of stern ancestor accounting :messenger_grinning_sweat:
 
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Esppiral

Member

The console is rendering only the torso and a plain texture as a background, in total it account for an average of 8000 polis nothing special to talk about, also that gift looks super crisp and it is missing the dof effect so it is obviously not from a ps2 😉
 

RoboFu

One of the green rats
Sega had massive internal conflicts which lead them to fumbling the Saturn in the US. That’s what brought them down.
Bernie stolar was a big issue, Peter Moore was a big issue. The Japanese side of things ran great. Saturn was a big success in Japan.
 
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Njocky

Banned
Anybody who knows the first thing about the Dreamcast architecture knows it was universally acknowledged to be the easiest platform to develop for at the time when it came out. There was absolutely no reason for them to have close to zero support from third parties when it was the only 32 bit console. And if people think that Sony has nothing to do with EA and Square Enix not releasing anything on the Dreamcast, they are being wilfully naive. The only reason why Sony was unable to do the same thing to Microsoft is their war chest and their ability to painlessly bleed through an entire generation until they could no longer be ignored by 3rd parties. And to this day Sony is pulling every japanese 3rd party that they can convince to their side, FF16 and Project Athia anyone? There used to be a time when not having FF or Dragon Quest on your console spelled doom. Japan vastly dominated the gaming market. MS only started getting those games this generation and it hasn’t been that bad because the market has heavily tilted towards western games and studios like BioWare and Bethesda since.

Moore is right on many points and the majority of Dreamcast owners know it. The biggest revisionism I have seen in this thread is that the lack of games killed the DC. It’s just a fact that DC had a stellar first party + capcom line up. The only reason why “MS is buying Sega” is trending as a topic in 2020 is because of the nostalgia of the DC era IPs.

It’s interesting how the defence force came out in formation for this one though.
 
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SkylineRKR

Member
Sony didn't have to do much. But Sega fucked their own consumers during the late MD and Saturn years. If Sony didnt do anything the DC might done a little bit better but MS and Nintendo had more reserves as well and would come out a while later. Dreamcast lacked a lot of basic features these systems had, it couldn't cope beyond 2001 anyway. It had clean and colorful looks but otherwise I feel its half a generation behind the GC, Xbox and even PS2. I guess this is fair because no matter how you look at it, DC is a 1998 product.

Don't forget the PSX got tremendous support throughout 1999 and even 2000, and it also outsold the DC.

What DC did right was delivering fun games from the get go, no waiting game. Good games came out in rapid fashion. They were fun and experimental.
 
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seanoff

Member
Sega burnt their own bridges before the ps2 was even in development. Type Sega Saturn launch into google, one of the highest ranking next word google is suggesting is disaster. Then before that ( or after in Japan) was the 32x. Wtf were they thinking.

Sega managed to kill their own userbase. Sony and Nintendo just had to be mildly competent to beat them, and they were. Sega fuckups before the dreamcast make any missteps by Sony/ms/Nintendo seem rather minor
 

Unknown?

Member
Yeah i remember the FUD starting with PS2, totally undeserved but it was everywhere when i was still on 56k modem.
Sony reached peak FUD with the killzone and motorstorm fakes.
Guess by PS4 time, they scaled down on the fakes, but they didnt really need aggressive FUD, because MS/Mattrick had shot themselves on the foot.
However it seems PS5 FUD is gaining speed, i guess when competition heats up, FUD follows. 🤷‍♀️
The only competition that's heating up is Nintendo so maybe.
 

jroc74

Phone reception is more important to me than human rights
So this is what the console wars have come to...lmao.

Within ONE FUCKING POST
Exactly.

I didn't read it, but some ppl may remember the FUD tactics MS tried with Google and gmail....and hotmail was damn near guilty of the exact same thing.

Gmail just did it better.
 
Let's all, ALL ignore the fact - that for 2 FULL YEARS - PS2 had no games, literally - no - games - the only thing sought after was MGS2 and at it's launch that was 2 years out - it took 2 year's to catch up to the Dreamcast in term's of available exclusive games literally. Very Literally. Lets ALL forget that... Dreamcast Launched with 12 triple A titles - 13 titles in totality - and released tons of games year on year. MOST to Critical Acclaim, unlike PS2, which took in totality 4 years to garner for a small roaster of games that had critical acclaim.

The Dreamcast was a glistening example of the PERFECT console launch. Still by nearly all margins (triple A release titles, cost to consumers, value, amount of dev support) it is considered a perfect console launch, with no area on offer lacking.

But, let's all FORGET - that hype alone, fanboyism - killed the Dreamcast - as the PS2 literally had nothing on offer - until the VERY end of year 2 after launch - and the hype alone/word of mouth/fake tech demo shown off before the PS2 launch and promise of an exclusive MG2 title .... eventually...... STILLLLLLLL somehow....... KILLED Sega as a console manufacturer. All thanks to Kojima really. Wow.
 
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Carna

Banned
In the long run, Sega's last console was dedicated to the hardcore, wanting unique and innovative games, while Modern Sony is stabbing japanese developers in the back with censorship policies and such, costing them a large userbase,

Let's see in the next console gen, that gamers are still willing to continue supporting Sony, and even the next-gen console generation.
 

Naked Lunch

Member
As of right now, in late 2020, ill take the old Dreamcast over PS4, XB1, PS5, and Series X.
I still have it hooked up.
This thread just inspired me to fire up Canon Spike and Zero Gunner 2. Thanks.
 

Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
MS are the masters of the "black arts" of anti-competitive marketing. Its always struck me as funny that since Xbox launch, its become traditional to fob this accusation off as being console-warring or fanboyism, despite the fact that their use of such practices goes back to the 80's.

They also are, as far as I know, the originators of using "astroturfing" as a key marketing strategy.

I don't even mean this in a critical way, its a smart way to press a commercial advantage. Because, lets face it, all marketing is about dancing around direct untruths in order to present the product in the most favorable way possible.
 

Rubik8

Member
Less third part support, a terrible controller, focus on arcade conversions, and absence of the best 16 bit franchises killed the Dreamcast.
 

Orta

Banned
With Sega pissing away its UK advertising budget on fucking Arsenal FC and SOA being run by a scouse twat it was doomed from the start.

Sega should have cosied up to Man Utd and world dominance would have been assured. Fergie would have seen to that.

sir-alex.jpg
 
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SEGA has no one to blame for their failures but SEGA. The 32X, "The Saturn is not our Future", making the Dreamcast to try to outdo the PS1 and not really planning ahead, really just a lack of foresight in general in terms of seeing where the industry was going or even where it WAS, dumping money into niche franchises when you were already in money trouble, constant infighting between SoJ and SoA...

Pretending that another company's FUD is what killed that console is rather indicative that Peter Moore learned nothing from all that.
 
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