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TGO
Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
Well they need to show something first
MiguelItUp
Member
I'm personally not a fan of politics being in my games. But I understand how and why some devs have their personal opinions put into their projects. Though I wish they wouldn't personally.
There are people in favor of those practices, and there are people that aren't. I think the majority don't really give a shit and aren't saying anything about it. So, no, all of gaming isn't going to be swallowed by the "woke" movement. Just like violent games, movies, and explicit music will still exist.
There are people in favor of those practices, and there are people that aren't. I think the majority don't really give a shit and aren't saying anything about it. So, no, all of gaming isn't going to be swallowed by the "woke" movement. Just like violent games, movies, and explicit music will still exist.
PleaseWaitStation4
Banned
NEVER listen to this advice. There will always be these people who tell you to shut up and give in. Change back begins when we say so. Besides, when you see the people behind all this bullshit, you may feel sorry for them. They've only got their keyboards to validate their existence.
Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Member
yes, in some story driven games they do that, but not all games. And again, there's no problem with that. But when you try to put it in all games, like the wokeist do, that creates a problem for parents that do not want to expose their children to kisses, implied sex, or actual sex scenes.
ibun
Member
Should I be glad to be of the older generation or angry about it?
I mean, back in my days (yeah, grandpa Simpson alarm), we didn't care much about the characters gender, race, if they were human or whatever. I still don't care. Talking about this and arguing amongst each other, each demanding to be more correct than the other will lead to nothing.
I am one of those types. I want my Spider Man to be Peter Parker. Spider Man 2099 Miguel O'Hara. Etc. Are the other Characters valid and have their right to exist? Of course they do. I like Miles Morales as an alternative Spider Man but he is not Spider Man. He stems from the Ultimate Universe, not 616. I sure do want to play his story, in his own game.
There was also the controversy, I have to use quotes on that, "controversy" about Elenas and Nathans child in Uncharted 4 to be a girl, but originally a planned to be a boy. The discussions around it SJW, wokes etc made me cringe. Boy or girl, what does it matter? They changed the gender while planning or early into the development. So thats okay, it doesn't have an impact. It would have been a different story to me, if that offspring had a bigger part, that was integral to the story and specified to be in a certain way. Then some years later one has the idea "yeah lets make it a girl". Shoehorn the girl in to the story, make her stand out. Like CWs Batwoman....A woman is a better Batman, tropes.
But the way she was implemented, no need to care about it. I'd go so far as to say, if another Uncharted 5 comes with Cassie I am okay with it. Nathan's story ended with 4. He retires, let her take over the family business.
I was not happy with some parts of Nadine Ross. Good character, okay written, I see motivation etc. The fights with Nathan in Italy and then Nathan and Sam in Libertaria, are questionable. Nathan blowed through numerous adversaries in the previous parts, Sam was 15 years in a panamanian prison. Let her use a expendable baton and brass knuckles, CQC, grappling. Nathan complain how its not fair, while she beats him up. This would be more believable to me.
I think, what some people, I mean on both fronts forget or overlook, is the quality of the characters. A character for the sake of existing, being tokenized is not representation. An "in your face" approach is also undesirable to me. "he is gay and strong and his most redeeming quality is being gay".....sure.....no!! His preference doesn't make him a good character I want to play as. This is true for many characters in modern media, like films, TV series, comics, books, etc.
What we can do, this is a individual decision, to rationally and objectively evaluate what we buy or pay for as our entertainment. No need to argue at all. Read reviews, synopsis' and similar. You do not like what they say and what you read in combination with the trailer? It is your decision not to further invest into that franchise. Someone else enjoyed it? Their decision, it's their enjoyment.
I don't want to be patronized by either side. I enjoy a "woke" game, then it is up to me. Maybe it is not so woke as you think. I enjoy a misogynistic Film, then it is up to me. Nobody can judge me by what they assume about me, without actually every talked to me. This is true for each of you.
I mean, back in my days (yeah, grandpa Simpson alarm), we didn't care much about the characters gender, race, if they were human or whatever. I still don't care. Talking about this and arguing amongst each other, each demanding to be more correct than the other will lead to nothing.
I am one of those types. I want my Spider Man to be Peter Parker. Spider Man 2099 Miguel O'Hara. Etc. Are the other Characters valid and have their right to exist? Of course they do. I like Miles Morales as an alternative Spider Man but he is not Spider Man. He stems from the Ultimate Universe, not 616. I sure do want to play his story, in his own game.
There was also the controversy, I have to use quotes on that, "controversy" about Elenas and Nathans child in Uncharted 4 to be a girl, but originally a planned to be a boy. The discussions around it SJW, wokes etc made me cringe. Boy or girl, what does it matter? They changed the gender while planning or early into the development. So thats okay, it doesn't have an impact. It would have been a different story to me, if that offspring had a bigger part, that was integral to the story and specified to be in a certain way. Then some years later one has the idea "yeah lets make it a girl". Shoehorn the girl in to the story, make her stand out. Like CWs Batwoman....A woman is a better Batman, tropes.
But the way she was implemented, no need to care about it. I'd go so far as to say, if another Uncharted 5 comes with Cassie I am okay with it. Nathan's story ended with 4. He retires, let her take over the family business.
I was not happy with some parts of Nadine Ross. Good character, okay written, I see motivation etc. The fights with Nathan in Italy and then Nathan and Sam in Libertaria, are questionable. Nathan blowed through numerous adversaries in the previous parts, Sam was 15 years in a panamanian prison. Let her use a expendable baton and brass knuckles, CQC, grappling. Nathan complain how its not fair, while she beats him up. This would be more believable to me.
I think, what some people, I mean on both fronts forget or overlook, is the quality of the characters. A character for the sake of existing, being tokenized is not representation. An "in your face" approach is also undesirable to me. "he is gay and strong and his most redeeming quality is being gay".....sure.....no!! His preference doesn't make him a good character I want to play as. This is true for many characters in modern media, like films, TV series, comics, books, etc.
What we can do, this is a individual decision, to rationally and objectively evaluate what we buy or pay for as our entertainment. No need to argue at all. Read reviews, synopsis' and similar. You do not like what they say and what you read in combination with the trailer? It is your decision not to further invest into that franchise. Someone else enjoyed it? Their decision, it's their enjoyment.
I don't want to be patronized by either side. I enjoy a "woke" game, then it is up to me. Maybe it is not so woke as you think. I enjoy a misogynistic Film, then it is up to me. Nobody can judge me by what they assume about me, without actually every talked to me. This is true for each of you.
PleaseWaitStation4
Banned
I went to India once and all their tv shows had dark skinned people with black hair and brown eyes....Haha, and you have the 4 x Chris in the Marvel Movies as well. But yeah, Nathan has such a stereotypical hero look it's almost comical.
Abear21
Banned
I for one appreciate the depth and level of character development in my video games that includes back story and sexual preferences, this is more engrossing, realistic, and immersive story telling. Gaming has come a long way with respect to storytelling and this is a good thing! It allows us to escape and if you want to be a shotgun holding brainless killer go play Doom, which is an awesome game, but that’s something I don’t play for the story.
Art imitates life, what we see happening in the world and developers personal views will be brought into gaming whether you like it or not, that’s writing, inspiration, and how humanity and creativity happens.
The great thing is there’s thousands of games and you can just play something different if it bothers you.
Oscar Wilde once said, “Life imitates Art far more than Art imitates life.” And I suppose those scared or agendas being pushed have a point. I just don’t think it makes sense to argue that point about a game that has so much violence attached to that character.
Games used to get flak for being too violent but the industry now has freedom of creativity over censorship thankfully. This is progress people, maybe it’s not the type of progress you want to see, and maybe I think that should require a look in the mirror as to why that is, but this is progress for the medium I love and I’m glad I can see it that way.
Art imitates life, what we see happening in the world and developers personal views will be brought into gaming whether you like it or not, that’s writing, inspiration, and how humanity and creativity happens.
The great thing is there’s thousands of games and you can just play something different if it bothers you.
Oscar Wilde once said, “Life imitates Art far more than Art imitates life.” And I suppose those scared or agendas being pushed have a point. I just don’t think it makes sense to argue that point about a game that has so much violence attached to that character.
Games used to get flak for being too violent but the industry now has freedom of creativity over censorship thankfully. This is progress people, maybe it’s not the type of progress you want to see, and maybe I think that should require a look in the mirror as to why that is, but this is progress for the medium I love and I’m glad I can see it that way.
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Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Member
Would be hard to come to examples, I do not tend to buy woke games. The examples I've seen, at least in most media, though don't recall particular cases, is that within minutes of stating their sexual orientation the characters start to display it.
JeloSWE
Member
Not literal sex, more about nakedness or revealing clothing. DMC 5 had at least one scene where I think Dante is carrying away a naked Trish and it had to be flare/fogged. Also intimacy mode was removed from Senran Kagura IIRC.
Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Member
Again, they don't come to mind at the moment. But I can tell you someone saying I'm gay or we're gay and then suddenly start kissing another man or woman within seconds, that's just not natural. People kiss, but they don't out of the blue state their orientation and start kissing to prove it.
That's another issue, while they want to promote lgbt sexuality, nonlgbt sexuality is being censored.
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Slings and Arrows
Banned
You're talking shit.
These companies have sniffed out where the money is and not you, I or anyone else can change the direction we're heading in.
I wish it wasn't true but look at the evidence. What is Cod and Fifas revenue these days? Worse because of loot boxes, p2w predatory mechanics or microtransactions? Nope, it's bigger than ever. And how's the player base for these games? Bigger than ever.
It doesn't take a genius to see why the things are the way they are.
PleaseWaitStation4
Banned
Everyone is allowed to crate their own thing. It's when you take other peoples work, established franchises, and puposefully derail them for a belif tha isn't even a reality. These groups that persucute have 99.9% persucuting a person innocent of what they're being attacked for. You want to yell "nazi" with 20 sock accounts to appear to dogpile, but here's never evidence the victims are guilty. It's all about the election coming up. The ones funding this shit are trying to hold a gun to the head of entertainment unless you vote left. They're trying to push into Japan so they can control and destroy the Japanese anime and gaming industry. This video goes into the group trying to pay off Japanese politicians. This can eventually drill into the gaming industry where they can do their damage, but they've been identified before any damage was done, so far.
You're saying you don't see innocent people being "cancelled" for their "freedom of creativity" and being wrongfully accused without evidence ? HAHA
Woopah
Member
It was OSC who was arguing that kissing and sex scenes were bad because children might see it. My argument was that kissing and sex scenes are fine.
Its difficult for me to respond without examples, but if it's so rare that nothing springs to mind then I don't think it's a big deal. Appreciate you responding though.
PanzerAzel
Member
Is your comment accurate? Based on what?
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen this same garbage quip posted in every Era thread that even hints at anything that suggests a deviation from the “straight white male” or deals with topics of diversity and representation, to come nothing of it but other posters circle jerking and applauding the notion. Always exclusively on Era, so apologies for the association if inaccurate, but that’s where I’ve always seen it.
I’m straight, I’m white, I’m male. And I don’t feel even the slightest bit oppressed by more diversity and representation that doesn’t favor me in any form of media. I simply am honest enough to recognize agendas when I see them and call them out for what they are (and only when I see evidence indicative of such and not simply predicated upon my own personal ideologies). I’ve played and enjoyed immensely many games throughout the years that supposedly “oppressed” me by denying me my default privilege, yet the thought never ever crossed my mind. In some games however, it raises my brow. Whether it be through execution, actions, affiliations, or a combination thereof. ND and TLoU II are one such example that I believe a solid case can be made to show that an agenda may be at play. There are other instances where I don’t think an agenda is at play, but inclusion is simply borne of creative impetus.
How do you know that the main issue is people are feeling oppressed and that that is driving their grievance? I won’t deny that there are those out there who feel threatened and in fear of marginalization, but I do believe they are marginal in number themselves, and believe, at least in TLoU II’s case, there is evidence that this is a studio that is heavily driven by vehement ideologies that’ve permeated into their work.
Simply because I suspect that doesn’t mean I’m feeling personally affronted, and I wish people could make that distinction.
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joe_zazen
Member
nice piece...dovetails into my current reading.
I am trying to work my way through The Tyranny of Science and Salvation and Suicide.
Salvation and Suicide analyses Jonestown and attempts to understand the experience without turning the people into mechanistic zombies, and as the movement as an actual religion.
Tyranny looks at the denigration of meaning and experience in our lives because of theory and how it can be resisted.
nemiroff
Gold Member
EVERYONE thought Ripley was the coolest hero ever in Alien and Aliens. Same with several hit movies containing black leads around the same time, Yet NO ONE was pandering or complaining that "everyone's a Nazi".. Aggressive shoehorning vs doing what's the best for the experience is two entirely different things. From being an old gamer my experience is that the more woke the world gets the more divisive it becomes.
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alabtrosMyster
Banned
I love Nathan when he's with Scully, the banter is awesome.
I love Kratos as a character, same with Joel, I like how they are constructed.
The one I did not like is (are) the guy(s) n the infamous games, they don't seem likeable (I don't mind the girl)... Same with that dragon game MS cancelled, the guy seemed to be a douchebag.
ibun
Member
Oh, don't get me wrong. I am not oblivious to those things that happen. I just chose to stay rational. Sure I got all that stuff about SJWs going into anime and manga, harassing mangaka via twitter. The latest ones, were revolving around the author of GoodEnding and DomesticKanojo. She got attacked for her creations. Or the Hospital mascot. I don't think it was okay. Won't stop me from reading both mangas (they are okay actually, a little bit too much romance and drama for me. GE was completed, not sure if the other one is still ongoing, Dropped it).
Please differentiate two factors here. On one hand you have the SJWs (Karens, BlueHair SocialJusticeWhale, Simps etc. whatever people call them). On the other hand you have the companies pandering to this. It is not my job to change someone's view forcefully. We can openly discuss this matter, like adults. Those companies, who go for that ideology are easier to direct. My money. Those aren't non profits, that operate for the good of humanity. If its a majority vote, then be it, that is democracy. If they do what you like, your win.
When asked why, the answer is "I don't like what was done with it". If there is an option to leave a comment, leave your comment.
rickyEGM
Banned
I'm sorry, but "go woke, go broke" is such cringe and not close to true. We're clearly losing the culture war.
PleaseWaitStation4
Banned
Wokety = Brokety.
Why do you think you're irrelevant? lol Predatory mechanics will fizzle out, but it will take a generation. The kids that have been the victims of them will grow up eventually and realize they've been had. That the joke was on them. That they've been stealing their parents money and giving it to a company that used them to do that, treated as thieving little rats. Then it ends.
Slings and Arrows
Banned
2010 onwards there were predatory mechanics in console and pc games and before that in mobile games. Have those mechanics gone away? No. Some have become more snydy, more clever and less obvious, but it's still there.
I wish it wasn't like this and the only chance to relive the years without the mainstream money-grabbing is VR. Until that becomes popular and the cycle starts all over again
Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Member
it's not rare, practically in all tv shows. Though I don't recall particular examples. What I do recall is that in many cases it's been unnatural, they suddenly say they're gay out of the blue and then immediately start passionately kissing as if this was some product placement in the middle of the show, as if they have to prove it.
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PleaseWaitStation4
Banned
Oh it's true. Not seeing it is equivalent to being a character in "The Walking Dead" in season 11 and not believing there's zombies. What we're seeing now are the woke projects that were funded before the virus. When companies had extra money to hit the marginalized crowds. That would be a great thing if they didn't take everything established (music, games, TV, music) and destroy and ATTACK the innocent people who enjoyed those things, all to satisfy themselves. That's the issue. Most woke projects failed and lost money, but they were mostly put out by companies that could take the hit, i.e. Terminator 4's bombing wasn't going to hurt Cameron financially and his reputation, even after producing a failure, will not be effected because appearing woke now gives him the 'moral high ground'. It's all bullshit. (o)(o)
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Punkster88
Banned
wow no poc? how fucking racist!
Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Member
yes, an exception, I meant in TV shows this has happened quite a few times.
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whitesugar
Banned
i don't mind more women main characters but western devs insistence on making them ugly and not remotely feminine does bother me
009EspadaSageJay
Member
It seems like most people are missing the whole point of what hes saying. No one has a problem with devs making any games they want its very easy to not buy a game like ME:A and have the whole company go into a spiral the consumers have the power not the other way around. The problem with sony is that they want to green light "Volcano high" But want to cancel Senran and Dead or alive or any anime game that isnt PC. So one game that is there to push a agenda is fine but another game that is the opposite of it is a problem. Same thing with the new R@C game after the very poorly written movie tie in 2016 game where the pair were literally hamfisted together. Were now going to get a game not with Ratchet but a random female lombax it doesn't take much brain power to put two and two together.
Lunatic_Gamer
Gold Member
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again - Progressivism is a mental illness, it infects and corrupts everything it touches.
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JeloSWE
Member
I never liked Kratos before, but the latest GoW was fantastic in humanizing him, I really started to care about him after they showed his balancing act between being a stern father yet so caring and loving.
SteveLorde
Banned
it's progressivism fused with pervertism. that's the problem
Fuz
Banned
Darkmakaimura
Member
Woke shit sells very well so don't expect it to go away.
The "go woke, get broke" meme couldn't be farther from the truth.
The "go woke, get broke" meme couldn't be farther from the truth.
PleaseWaitStation4
Banned
Look at Disney being all woke. They goin 'round cancelling and firing directors who said shit they didn't like 10 fucking years ago or even later. Hey Disney, what about all your racist cartoons from the past and the shit you got to change at the park today? Cancel and fire yourselves! Fng hypocrites. It's all bullshit.
Woopah
Member
If it was in practically all TV shows then surely you would remember some examples. The only example that I can think of is in the 300 sequel movie, where there was a weirdly placed sex scene.
Not something I've come across in gaming so don't think it's anything to worry about .
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Lupin3
Targeting terrorists with a D-Pad
I don't mind Nathan per se, just that the character itself is quite cliché in terms of looks. That is all. Wanna add though that it doesn't really affect me to the point of having to make a powerpoint presentation and tell the world about it. Nathan is ok, even if he may be better looking than me.
Eliciel
Member
the iteration has been here aleady, we are living in circles.
Lethal01
Member
Strong Men and Women create good times achually.
Woopah
Member
I feel exactly the same way, the story in God of War wasn't mind-blowing or anything but the way Kratos was handled was excellent and I'm interested to see what comes next.
The Alien
Banned
Dont forget about all the emo dinos!!!
kurisu_1974
is on perm warning for being a low level troll
Heh what a weird bubble you must live in. I would not comment on popular culture or trends at all if I were you.
anthraticus
Banned
Stick with retro and older devs you know that aren't effected by the disease.
Millennials and whatever they call the gen younger than that are a lot more likely to be infected.
Millennials and whatever they call the gen younger than that are a lot more likely to be infected.
Doom85
Member
Because they were rare exceptions. Heck, you know Alien 3 was originally not going to have Ripley but the studio head insisted they keep her in the story as it offered something unique for audiences as barely any other blockbusters had a strong female as the main focus. It's why pre-2000's, people conveniently seem to think of only three examples of blockbuster films of strong female leads: Ripley, Sarah Conner (who's really only the action lead in T2, in 1 it's clearly Kyle), and Leia (and the final one isn't the best example given the last film kinda just throws in she's Force-sensitive but apparently not as important as Luke as Obi-Wan and Yoda put all their money on him and seemed to barely consider her a factor). It's because these are really the only examples.
Considering 50% of the population is female, forgive me if that don't impress me much. Now, I'm not saying exactly 50% of blockbuster leads have to be women, but the INSANELY low amount is noticeable. Then more and more started showing up and that's when people started getting upset. I have no idea how they're being "shoe-horned" in since again, there's KIND OF A LOT OF WOMEN ON PLANET EARTH LAST TIME I CHECKED. And as for black leads, A) yeah no, there were barely any black leads (as in THE LEAD, so nobody bring up Lando or something) in blockbuster movies pre-2000's and even not that many pre-2010's, and B) I get that people living in certain places don't have many black people in them, but they also need to understand that the U.S. does has plenty and heaven forbid we have fiction coming from U.S. creators reflect that. Hell, when it comes to anime barely anyone goes, "why are there barely any black characters?" as it's understood most anime take place in Japan where IRL virtually everyone is Japanese. BUT then when an upcoming anime was announced called The Great Pretender and it was revealed the main female character was a black woman, OH BOY, certain people on MAL threw a hissy fit screaming about SJWs invading anime, ignoring the fact that A) virtually all anime have zero black characters so having ONE new one is hardly adding to the percentage of their representation, and B) the story synopsis clearly suggests an international cast, several of the characters are from various European countries, yet the main female being black is "an issue" in spite of all this. It's just pathetic behavior.
I don't even understand what's "best for the experience" even means. My issue with the other side's argument is that it feels they often look at women and non-white characters as they have to "prove themselves" worthy to be the lead, but white male characters get more of a pass. I've seen it too often in fictional debates, women getting good a little "too quickly" as something will cause some people to cry foul, but men who do it even within the same series/franchise won't cause any fuss.
Maybe actually explain why any of these new games' stories would be better if the lead was a white male (hell, I actually explained why I think the lead of Returnal being a middle-aged woman makes sense, conveniently you gave no counter-argument to the example I provided). Yet the people who say this whole "it's not best for the story!" defense rarely explain why, they just claim it is. Funny, in my experience Spider-verse is definitely the best Spidey film in terms of story and character development, only the original Spidey 2 even comes close, yet I guarantee you when that movie was announced I heard the exact same flimsy noise that I'm hearing when this new Spidey game was announced, people complaining that this "might not be best for the story" without offering any real explanation as to why it might not be (and the few times they did, they showed they were kind of normies when it came to superhero comics given that hero legacies have been a thing since the 1950's). Hey, fun fact, but if I had access to a time travel machine and all the time in the world to do whatever I wanted with it, at no point would I go back in time and ask Stan Lee if Peter Parker, Bruce Banner, Tony Stark, etc. being white males "was best for the story". Because it's what he's creating and I'll wait to experience it in full before sticking my nose up and questioning it based on literally nothing.
Hell, I have zero interest in biker culture, but I still bought Days Gone and while the first 10 hours as I said are a rough start eventually Deacon's story and development did grow on me. I could have just stuck my nose up and been like, "ugh, a biker character, why?" but I gave the storyteller(s) a chance and they did a good enough job in my eyes. Could a female lead or non-white lead have made the story even better? Possibly, but I have no way of knowing, and likewise, you have no way of knowing if a while male lead would make the stories of these upcoming games better. None of these games' trailers called anyone a Nazi. None of these games' trailers seem like "aggressive shoe-horning" to me. It doesn't even make sense to me, the only way that could happen is if most of these developers worked on creating these games TOGETHER and planned this all out and no one who knows game development could actually think that's the case. If anything, I'd say games with leads who aren't white or male selling well has just made more developers and creative minds more willing to "risk" having their leads be that way. It's a far better environment for creative minds in my book than the PS3/360 gen where SO MANY leads were just stern-faced white dude with bald or shaved head (basically, all Infamous 1 lead guy), and the developers of Bioshock Infinite were pressured in removing Elizabeth from the cover art because a survey done with frat guys ([sarcasm]CLEARLY the only people who play video games[/sarcasm]) said they'd be less likely to buy a game if a girl was on the cover and so the actual main focus of the story (Booker is important, but Elizabeth is definitely the most important and grows the most) was removed from the cover. I am SO eternally grateful there's no signs we're going back to those sort of lack of variety in leads that dominated those years of gaming.
