dirtmonkey37
flinging feces ---->
jarosh said:
excellent post. I was about to post something similar....
but I couldn't have done it with the finesse that you did. Anyways, a very true statement.
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Mass Effect EGM Cover Story = Seven Soldiers In Space
- Thread starter BenjaminBirdie
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excellent post. I was about to post something similar....
but I couldn't have done it with the finesse that you did. Anyways, a very true statement.
The story outlined there... doesn't even make sense!
Why would an ancient alien race leave short lived beings for millenia before coming to harvest a bunch of them?
Wouldn't it be easier to take half of them frequently, which would allow the races to regenerate in relatively short order?
And they probably according to the story travel from galaxy to galaxy harvesting multiple races. WHY WOULD THEY GO FROM GALAXY TO GALAXY?! It sounds like they're using all the fuel/energy from the harvesting to go on a never ending massive intergalactic joy ride.
Scary for the victims is one thing... but if you're going to use hyper intelligent beings as the villains, give them at least half way intelligent motivations.
Why would an ancient alien race leave short lived beings for millenia before coming to harvest a bunch of them?
Wouldn't it be easier to take half of them frequently, which would allow the races to regenerate in relatively short order?
And they probably according to the story travel from galaxy to galaxy harvesting multiple races. WHY WOULD THEY GO FROM GALAXY TO GALAXY?! It sounds like they're using all the fuel/energy from the harvesting to go on a never ending massive intergalactic joy ride.
Scary for the victims is one thing... but if you're going to use hyper intelligent beings as the villains, give them at least half way intelligent motivations.
Howard Alan Treesong
Member
Zaptruder said:
Because you have to let the race reach a certain level of technological development before they're fit to be harvested again? This is Evil Alien Harvesting 101, guys.
Amir0x said:
Well, yes, certainly a possibility, but at the same time, why hasn't this hyper intelligent race devised a more efficient means of energy then harvesting sentient races?
It's not even like the matrix, which kinda covered some of its bases, by blocking out the sun!
No... these alien overlords are apparently just pricks.
Synthesizer Patel said:
If they took half of them every few hundred years, that would leave their tech base in place to propogate, as well as giving them much shorter time to regenerate to harvestable populations!
Come on man! These aren't just any ordinary evil aliens! They're alien OVERLORDS!
Hunter D said:
I'm been facetious, yes. But at the same time, it doesn't mean even with fleshing out that the general premise isn't a flawed one to begin with.
Good writing is not unlike good design (or anything else really); they both need great details, but at the same time, it's best if they're both working of good bases to begin with.
My Arms Your Hearse
Banned
Speevy said:
This is true.
TOO BAD THEY'RE NOT DEVELOPING PC GAMES ANYMORE.
Instead we get dumbed down console crap with horribly contrived good/evil systems and predictable plot twists.
Howard Alan Treesong
Member
Why the hell would they be harvesting them for ENERGY?
Just cause the Matrix had that terrible second-law violating plot point doesn't mean other evil races are as completely boneheaded in their harvesting.
It's far more likely that races are being harvested for their synaptical/emotional/spiritual capacity, not because they're out of D-sized batteries.
Seriously, do you know anything about why lesser races would be harvested? Energy?! Give me a fcukin break.
Just cause the Matrix had that terrible second-law violating plot point doesn't mean other evil races are as completely boneheaded in their harvesting.
It's far more likely that races are being harvested for their synaptical/emotional/spiritual capacity, not because they're out of D-sized batteries.
Seriously, do you know anything about why lesser races would be harvested? Energy?! Give me a fcukin break.
Howard Alan Treesong
Member
I'm actually really confused by the energy comment.
What the hell.
The whole point of harvesting is to keep your crop in check, not to eliminate it. More important than the sheer numbers of your crop are its current level of cultural development. Harvesting races for energy reasons is entirely thermodynamically irresponsible, so you always have a better reason for needing sentient creatures to do your enslaved bidding than "lol batteries."
Are the youth of today really as so ignorant as to not know the first goddamned thing about harvesting sentient races? Depressing.
What the hell.
The whole point of harvesting is to keep your crop in check, not to eliminate it. More important than the sheer numbers of your crop are its current level of cultural development. Harvesting races for energy reasons is entirely thermodynamically irresponsible, so you always have a better reason for needing sentient creatures to do your enslaved bidding than "lol batteries."
Are the youth of today really as so ignorant as to not know the first goddamned thing about harvesting sentient races? Depressing.
Which would be the highest compliment any game could recieve.Nerevar said:
Seriously, I got the exact same vibe when watching the demo. The galaxy hopping, planet exploring, upgrading your ship and interacting with bizarre alien races makes everything feel like Mass Effect is a proper sequel to SC2.
Synthesizer Patel said:
Regardless of the harvesting reason; it's said, they wipe out civilizations during their harvesting.
So, not sure who you're criticizing there Synth.
Indeed... if it was a grand scheme to harvest psychic energy... why not just hook them up matrix style?
Whatever the case is, my point still holds true; the premise is flawed.
Howard Alan Treesong
Member
Zaptruder said:
They wipe out civilizations; they don't extinguish the race. Race != civilization. They eliminate the race's ability to retaliate, while leaving enough behind to be "harvested" again in a few more millenia. Reread that description.
THINK!
Synthesizer Patel said:
I'm thinking you have an unnatural need for defending this...
You're right Race doesn't mean civilization, but at the same time, a civilization can be composed of mulitple races, so it could be wiping out multiple races!
Moreover, if the plot is centered around such a device... it's safe to assume that the player is somehow involved in stopping this harvesting (saving the universe type deal), and as such, the alien overlords haven't done an entirely good job of eliminating the ability to retaliate.
Howard Alan Treesong
Member
Zaptruder said:
Sure, that's fine. The point is that decimating a civilization is not concordant with driving a race (races) to extinction; in fact, "on a routine cycle" specifically speaks out against said extinction.
Zaptruder said:
First of all, we don't even know the entire plot. It's entirely possible that it's based around defending against a single instance of the harvesting, rather than stopping the machine overlords once-and-for-all. Have to leave something for the later games, after all.
Second, it's established that human beings are new to the galactic stage and, as such, could be a "wild card" not taken into account by the harvesters' plans. If humans haven't been harvested before, then they may have some advantages they can lend these other races.
The reason I'm defending it so much is because dismissing a three-game narrative based on a one-sentence, over-simplified summary is, well, dumb. Especially when there are countless possible logical explanations for what's-going-on. Don't be dumb, Zaptruder.
Synthesizer Patel said:
Or they could simply seed multiple civilizations over multiple galaxies.
I'm not saying the story will be dumb (nor that the game not worth playing). But definetly, there will be a lingering feeling of incompleteness, if overreaching parts of the plot are based on flawed premises. (whether or not they are flawed remains to be seen; but there's certainly room for doubt!)
That said, I've read plenty of incomplete fiction, and the gaping plot holes haven't really stopped me from enjoying them.
Hunter D said:
ok being superior doesn't mean you don't understand cognizance. In fact, it would mean they probably understand the concept better. And there's no evidence to say the robots in the Matrix think of the human race as no different than animals - the fact that they created an elaborate matrix actually is evidence to the contrary
krypt0nian
Banned
Meier said:
Seems so.
Of All Trades
Member
No, you want to knock a civ back to the bronze age and give them a couple thousand years to reach the eventual population boom due to tech if you want to prevent any serious development towards retaliation. The benefit of knocking a civ so far back is that you pretty much ensure that your previous harvest will be regarded as a myth. Leaving the tech base and half the population for a few hundred years pretty much ensures that whatever you left behind ain't going to be what's greeting you next time.Zaptruder said:
As for the harvest pattern, humans are near the edge of the galaxy; seeding a lot of planets nearer to the galactic core would make a lot more sense, and would explain why Humans Save The Day since we would be a wildcard.
Howard Alan Treesong
Member
Of All Trades said:
AT LAST, someone who understands the proper methodology for harvesting sentient races! We have these rules for a reason, you know!
BamYouHaveAids
Member
I don't know if I should be excitied for this or not. Graphics and coversation system seem great, but the little gameplay I saw looked horrid. Kotor = great, Jade Empire not so much, so I think I'm in a wait and see mode.
LiveFromKyoto
Member
Zaptruder said:
Well, in Seven Soldiers the reason is that the society at Summer's End had stagnated; it wasn't the people themselves they wanted, it was their technological ideas, their fashions, culture, music, everything. Harvesting them too soon would stop civilization from reaching its nadir, and only taking half would have alerted humanity to their presence and allowed the to begin formulating a defence.
So since this is borrowing from SS, I guess that's the case here.
LiveFromKyoto said:
Sounds somewhat intresting. Although, what is seven soldiers? Some kind of literary work from?
But still... the question of why harvest remains?
What was the reason in SS? Wouldn't it be more beneficial for them to engage in intergalactic congress with the fledgling societies? Or assimilate them into their own empire? If it's the case of harvesting psychic energy (or some such), then wouldn't matrix style machines be adequate?
At this point, I'm more just curious how one would make that kind of plot work well... not trying to troll.
LiveFromKyoto
Member
Zaptruder said:
A freaking brilliant comic written by Grant Morrison. It would take too long to describe here, but it was seven interlocking four issue mini series - none of the characters ever meet, but their stories all affect one another, and there are all kinds of weird synchronicities between them.
Each series was kind of a different genre as well, and the whole thing comes together into what Morrison calls a 'hypersigil' - a work of associative images and ideas that coalesce into one large scale work designed to stimulate transformative mental processes in both the creator and reader. Each Soldier is archetypal, and represents an individuation and growth cycle for that aspect of the personality. There's a TON of eastern and Judeo-Christian/Qabbalistic subtext and symbology to the series; Morrison is himself a practicing Crowleyite/Chaos Magickian.
In that series, because they'd stagnated. They were a Monarchic autocracy, and they had reached an evolutionary dead end. They possessed magic and technology that had made most tasks routine, but were culturally spent. They could only progress by assimilating new ideas.
Storywise, they choose the route they did because by destroying humanity they forced the survivors to rebuild their society in a different way. The series begins with the destruction of Camelot and the last stand of the Round Table; Avalon's magic and wisdom is replaced in the present day by our scientific and rational knowledge. This allowed them to reap different types of human society rather than just assimilating one. Why they do this to humanity rather than various alien civilizations isn't explored, although the last issue has been delayed 6 months so perhaps they go into detail there.
The reasons why are probably subtextual - their leader is the archetypal wicked queen, the 'bad mother' stand-in of fairy tales. Her people, the Sheeda represent the fear of death that overshadows our personality, and forces the ego to make decisions for its own benefit and survival against those of others. As the work is designed as a hypersigil meant to energize aspects of the personality while simultaneously sublimating the dominating role of the ego and transcend its confining worldview, a personification of the roadblocks that prevent this was necessary. Morrison chose adversaries that are avatars of Jungian shadow archetypes to do so.
Of All Trades
Member
A series of comics (seven different comics of 4 issues, each about one of the soldiers, plus a prologue and yet to be released finale) written by Grant Morrison. Most of it is collected in tbp form.Zaptruder said:
Maybe they need alien pineal glands. All it needs to be is something organically grown that isn't easily replicable. Maybe the part differs depending on the environmental conditions, who knows. Hell, it could be brains for all that it matters.
Further, if the harvesting race is robotic, it's possible that they're operating on commands from a now-dead race.
LiveFromKyoto
Member
No space involved. That was a comparison made by whoever set the title for this thread.
arne said:
Hmmm? You mean to say:
The debate on this page, shows to Wanderer on the first page, that: even if you think it's the same old rehased storyline in general, it still isn't.
Because for a while I was reading; Wanderer was right about 'even if you think it's the same old rehased storyline in general, it still isn't.'
Which was confusing, because that isn't what he was saying.
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