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[Polioliolio]

I love Demon's and Dark Souls, but I didn't care much for Bloodborne after I had a playthrough in... Now, I've recently started it again and I'm loving it. It's far and away the best souls game, aside from some annoying decisions, like items not refilling + obligatory hunters dream visit between lamps.

Dark souls 2 is b tier to the end. It's like playing indie made fan fiction. It's still a captivating game, but because it's officially associated with Souls games, it really leaves a stain on the series.

 

[QisTopTier]

I'm confused, you are complaining about the game but you are sitting there killing a zone over and over over saying how dull it is? Just progress through the game normally.

And you didn't go the wrong way there are two paths for that route you can beat the game and never fight the dragon rider

 

[GurgleBot20]

No, because you don't even need life gems and you have flasks.

You start the game with a carrying capacity of 1 estus though.

I'm not the biggest fan of the vials, but the game does in fact try to compensate for it, with frequent drops, inexpensive purchases (inflation occurs as enemies drop more echos), and the system where attacking where regain some health.

 

[RPGam3r]

Ah, a Dark Souls 2 thread...



But here is the twist: Can you actually explain why?

Anyway, I'd say the best way to play the Souls series is in the order they release. OP, you seem to be jumping around in a rather messy way going from Demon's Souls to Bloodborne (or the other way around, you never made that clear) and now Dark Souls 2, rather than playing the first Dark Souls which is widely regarded as one of the better games of the series along with DeS and BB.

That said, as for Dark Souls 2 itself, I consider it the weakest of the Souls games but still enjoy it like all Souls games because its more of what I love. I can at least assure you that the DLC of DS2 is definitely a significant improvement on the base game and all three of the Crowns DLC offer a lot of content. Still some flaws to be seen like the annoying unbreakable poise of some enemies, but still worth experiencing; if not for the bosses alone.

As for Bloodborne, after playing through it recently, it's probably my favorite Souls game, or at least on par with the first Dark Souls. If I could name one criticism I have with it, it is definitely the blood vials that have been mentioned. Why they went from the perfect estus flask back to the incredibly flawed grass of Demon's Souls, I will never understand. The lamps only allowing travel back to Hunter's Dream is also an unnecessary inconvenience coming back from Demon's Souls as well.

Really wish they'd just make the hub area part of the world like DS1 and DS2, but much like DS1 where its much more interconnected, rather than separate like in DeS, BB, and DS3. Makes for much more interesting level design.

Other than my comments in this thread about the build variety and the combat feeling better than the other entries. I also like the location variety, limited enemies spawns in conjunction with the bonfire system, that I could fast travel right up front, that the game didn't have to prove itself difficult up front by pitting me against a difficult opponent (in DS2 this is off to side and forecasted with footprints), and others.

 

[bubumiao]

Other than my comments in this thread about the build variety and the combat feeling better than the other entries. I also like the location variety, limited enemies spawns in conjunction with the bonfire system, that I could fast travel right up front, that the game didn't have to prove itself difficult up front by pitting me against a difficult opponent (in DS2 this is off to side and forecasted with footprints), and others.

You're talking about Dark Souls II no DLC version, right?

 

[Zaventem]

You start the game with a carrying capacity of 1 estus though.

I'm not the biggest fan of the vials, but the game does in fact try to compensate for it, with frequent drops, inexpensive purchases (inflation occurs as enemies drop more echos), and the system where attacking where regain some health.

Price of items scale as you level up my friend. Inflation occurs in all souls games but at least the tried to help curb it a bit.

 

[RPGam3r]

You're talking about Dark Souls II no DLC version, right?

I actually like pre and post DLC DS2.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I'm not too far into the game and quite frankly I'm taking a long time progressing because I am farming souls.

Well... uh.... stop doing that?

My main is a Knight. I have 38 STR, approximately 20 VIT, and a few more points in the boosted stats I started off with (everything except the ones to do with magic or dexterity).

Oh, you must be like, half-way through the~

The last boss I fought was The Pursuer.

Wait what

Got some key here but didn't for the life of me know where to go so I consulted a FAQ and found that I have to (or should) fight Dragonrider. So here I am at Heide's Tower of Flame trying to fight each enemy 15 times so that they're clear of my path to the boss while also farming souls.

My overall opinion of the game? Worse than Bloodborne. Much worse.

This post, lol.

"I'm doing boring mindless repetitive stuff and it's so boring! This game sucks! Also I can't figure out how to properly explore a level so I consulted a FAQ instead of figuring things out myself, this game sucks!"

That one map I got transported to by the bird after The Pursuer has been the worst offender. I firmly believe there are good and bad claustrophobic designs but this one is just bad. It's not enjoyable in the slightest.

It's an exhausting A-to-B design with no alternate paths that I despise.

????

The Lost Bastille is literally the opposite of that. It's super-intricate with tons of side-paths.

Maybe stop farming souls and actually, I don't know, explore. Jesus

Finding a path over the rubble in front of the first bonfire is really unintuitive that it almost makes you think you are not supposed to be walking along the edge in order to progress, but surprise, you are. So far this area has been the worst. I know there's more to explore but I haven't progressed further than the first two bonfires. I can see beyond some metal gate at the second bonfire that there's more to this area but unless it really opens and changes it up, then it's still going to suck.

Seriously this reads like a parody.

"I took 2 steps into this level. I declare that it sucks without having exploring it. I see there's more to it over there but I will still say it sucks without having checked it out."

Why can't I strike enemies that are down after they've been hit with an exploding barrel? I was surprised to find that I have to wait for them to stand up before I can strike them again. This killed me twice and almost a third time.

Invincibility frames. You have them, too. Ever notice how you don't take extra damage while knocked down? It's only fair.

Farming? Clearing out enemies? I'm very tempted to say you're playing it wrong.

Lost Bastille is a great level and the first several levels of Dark souls 2 is the complete opposite of a-to-b design.

Aye. What a bizarre OP.

I've never understood the "I've platinumed it" as some kind of validation.

Seriously. Congrats on farming every drop/buying every shop item, or something.

 

[Sanctuary]

Same with Demon's, actually.

I guess it just depends on where you started with the series. Demon's Souls still has the best loading screens and atmosphere. It was also the second fastest game until Dark Souls 3. I still find it to be tied with Dark Souls for the best game however.

Being "walled" means "getting stuck for a long time", basically. "I ended up walling on Shadows of Yharnam, used sixty blood vials, and had to grind for more."

It happens more often to bad players (like me) which is why the Estus system was so elegant and why I'm mad Bloodborne has consumables.

I thought the phrase was "banging my head against a wall". I know the youngins like their shortcuts or whatever, but come on.

I have only finished DS2. DS1 is cool but far more frustrating and janky; without having played DS2 I wouldn't be interested in Bloodborne, which I'm playing as soon as I get a ps4. Not a fan of 1.

That's such an odd thing to say, considering the floaty combat and jankiness of Dark Souls 2 stood out right away coming from the previous two games. Plus, say what you want about poise (single player), but at least armor did something in Dark Souls, and it had a much better dodge.

 

[bubumiao]

I actually like pre and post DLC DS2.

But you're talking about Dark Souls II either way? I've only played Demon's Souls so far.

 

[RPGam3r]

But you're talking about Dark Souls II either way? I've only played Demon's Souls so far.

Yep. If you are thinking of playing DS2 you should probably skip to SotFS. Even people who dog on DS2, tend to consider the DLC to be top shelf.

 

[Sotha_Sil]

Wait until you unpetrify the statue near the guy with the Bluemoon Greatsword just outside Majula. Then you will truly understand poor level design.

Just played Sunken King and that was much better.

 

[TheOfficeMut]

Well... uh.... stop doing that?


Oh, you must be like, half-way through the~


Wait what


This post, lol.

"I'm doing boring mindless repetitive stuff and it's so boring! This game sucks! Also I can't figure out how to properly explore a level so I consulted a FAQ instead of figuring things out myself, this game sucks!"


????

The Lost Bastille is literally the opposite of that. It's super-intricate with tons of side-paths.

Maybe stop farming souls and actually, I don't know, explore. Jesus


Seriously this reads like a parody.

"I took 2 steps into this level. I declare that it sucks without having exploring it. I see there's more to it over there but I will still say it sucks without having checked it out."


Invincibility frames. You have them, too. Ever notice how you don't take extra damage while knocked down? It's only fair.


Aye. What a bizarre OP.


Seriously. Congrats on farming every drop/buying every shop item, or something.

Get over it. This is how I enjoy playing the game and I don't find it boring to farm Souls. I did this with pleasure in Demon's Souls and Bloodborne, so that's not an issue.

What is an issue is that the environments aren't interesting enough to play in. Yes, I'm early in the game but this is an impressions thread. I decided to make a thread now rather than later to see how my opinion may change or remain the same.

And really? Criticism on me consulting a guide to simply see what boss I should fight next? Okay. lol

 

[Wensih]

Thats the same way i progressed when i first played it OP, i would recommend heading through Heide's Tower of Flame and ignoring the Last Bastille until you approach it from the other side. Some of your complaints are just mechanics you'll have to get used to, and some will be alleviated in other areas that are more open with alternate paths or neat shortcuts to unlock. It might be a little more fun to grind a little less too, its not really that needed. Do make sure your agility is around 95-100 depending on your play style though.

I really do love Dark Souls 2, and i do agree with a lot of the complaints but the game does a lot of really great things too that don't get celebrated enough. I'd stick with it, its a wonderful and varied game with a lot to offer, even if the general consensus is its the worst of the series. Enjoy Dark Souls for its varied levels, amazing build variety and just how much damn content is there, even if its a little uneven at times.

If you're on PS4 and want someone to tag along with you for some co-op, hit me up. I'm always up for playing more Dark Souls 2.

This needs to stop being considered a positive, especially when you undermine the statement by saying its iffy at times.

I see this used as praise for a lot of games, and "lacking content" as a negative for games like Overwatch when the praise should first begin with consistency of quality, not quantity. It's why Rocket League is excellent. It's why Overwatch is excellent. It's why Dark Souls II is not; it's inconsistent.

 

[mickcenary]

You know, after all of the "B Team" complaints, Bloodborne ended up having a lot more hitbox and grab issues than Demon's Souls or Dark Souls, yet those just get swept under the carpet constantly.

Yeah, this is nonsense.

I get anecdotal evidence and all, but DS2 had some hitbox problems that legit made it look and feel like it was 1 week out of development. The Heide Knight's animations/moveset are the worst thing to ever happen to the Soulsborne games.

It also just feels like shit. Boggles my mind how someone can play BB/DS1/DS3 and not think there's something seriously fucked about how DS2 moves and plays.

I mean, shit, BB makes me feel that way about DS3 to an extent.

EDIT: I misread. I'd say the issues are on par with DeS/DS. As long as we can agree that DS2's issues are far more prolific.

 

[righthandmouse]

Yeah, this is nonsense.

I get anecdotal evidence and all, but DS2 had some hitbox problems that legit made it look and feel like it was 1 week out of development. The Heide Knight's animations/moveset are the worst thing to ever happen to the Soulsborne games.

It also just feels like shit. Boggles my mind how someone can play BB/DS1/DS3 and not think there's something seriously fucked about how DS2 moves and plays.

I mean, shit, BB makes me feel that way about DS3 to an extent.

You should put some binoculars on and use some hexes.

 

[Wensih]

You have less tools, and it would be borderline unplayable without the quick dodge.

Yeah because that's an essential mechanic that the rest of the game revolves around. Pokémon would be borderline unplayable if you couldn't throw a pokeball.

 

[Breads]

It's pretty open if you know what you're doing. Or you know. If you bothered exploring. You want things to be intuitive... but it isn't. I personally loved how it took several playthroughs to fully understand how Dark Souls 2 works and despite its obvious flaws there is a reason why it continues to be my favorite Souls game. Most people judge it on their first (and only) playthrough and that's fine. But as a person who has played through it multiple times with many builds from start to finish, here is my take on its non linearity.

-open spoilers-

Path 1 - Forest of giants all the way to the Salt Fort. You don't need a key. You can use hidden walls/ breakable walls to navigate the area and unlock bonfires.

Path 2 - Heide's Tower all the way to to Salt Fort. Once you fight the Dragon Rider boss you gain access to Hutsmens Cops.

Path 3 - Huntsmens Copse that eventually ends in Iron Keep.

Path 4 - If you bought or found a Fragrant Branch of Yore (and you can buy one from Melentia a few minutes into the game in SOTFS) you gain access to Shaded woods. With 4 great souls or 1m soul memory Shrine of Winter opens up giving you access to Drangleic. The other path here takes you all the way through Brightstone Cove Tseldora.

Path 5 - The well all the way to Black Gulch. The Rotten is where I dump my first few bonfire ascetics to reach a quick 1m souls.

Once you open the Shrine of Winter that's where it becomes linear. Depending on how you played you can make most of the previous areas optional (though there are valid reasons to go through each one depending on what resources you want at your disposal) but from Drangleic on it's a path to the end though it isn't perfectly straight - you still get a few options here and there.
________________________

Side note - Drop Soul Memory categories as far as online interactions go and make faith caster/ pure sorcery builds viable again. Agape ring is a joke, for quality of life purposes sorcery builds require hexes to get through the base game because of nerfs, and faith casting was completely destroyed. These things are inexcusable.

 

[Sanctuary]

Yeah because that's an essential mechanic that the rest of the game revolves around. Pokémon would be borderline unplayable if you couldn't throw a pokeball.

I guess you don't realize this since I'm having to point it out...but we're both stating the obvious. Maybe read what I was replying to.

EDIT: I misread. I'd say the issues are on par with DeS/DS. As long as we can agree that DS2's issues are far more prolific.

As long as we are exclucing replayability and variety, then sure.

What is an issue is that the environments aren't interesting enough to play in.

For the most part, but it does have some nice looking areas.

I know this may be unpopular opinion but I've found Bloodborne and Dark Souls 3 the weakest games of the series.

Same, although for the limited style Bloodborne offers, it does it better than the rest most of the time.

The only complaint I have about Dark 2 are hitboxes are bad and the soul memory mechanic. It's one of the only games where a caster build is viable along with Demon Souls. Otherwise casters often got the short end of the stick, especially in PVP. Dark 2 is also probably the only game I feel has amazing replay ability where other games suffer from this.

ADP sucks, and while "casters" in general were very strong out of the gates, Sorcery was fucking awful for half of the game unless you got extremely lucky with a Lizard Staff drop (you most likely wouldn't know on your first playthrough that it can kind of be farmed).

Dark Souls 3 is prob by far the most disappointing of the series to me, if compared to the others. It's an amazing game but it somehow is less memorable than Dark Souls 2, which is weird. As pointed out before, Dark Souls 3 feels like a greatest hits souls game with a ton of "remember this from Dark Souls 1?". I felt that hurt the game a lot and Dark 3 didn't improve much to the other series. Online is vastly improved in 3 sure, and there are new and interesting weapons and spells but otherwise i feel this game has the less replay value.

I know FROM was supposedly going for an "everything is covered in ash" theme, or whatever...but the aesthetics just weren't doing it for me after a while in that game. That's also the same problem I have with Bloodborne's level design and aesthetics. What some call consistency, I call boring. Dark Souls 3 borrowed too many of what I consider the negative aspects of Bloodborne. Spires, spires, turn the corner and more spires, while everything is washed in an almost monochrome palette.

Dark 1 > DeS > Dark 2 > BB > Dark 3

Dark Souls = Demon's Souls > Dark Souls 2 <> Dark Souls 3 = Bloodborne.

 

[FRS1987]

I know this may be unpopular opinion but I've found Bloodborne and Dark Souls 3 the weakest games of the series. What I like about Dark 2 is the vast level of content while also feeling completely fresh and different from every other souls games. It has it's own identity while also having Souls mechanics. I also don't get how people complain how Dark 2 level design is not interconnected yet Demon suffers from this as well and no one complains about that game.

The only complaint I have about Dark 2 are hitboxes are bad and the soul memory mechanic. It's one of the only games where a caster build is viable along with Demon Souls. Otherwise casters often got the short end of the stick, especially in PVP. Dark 2 is also probably the only game I feel has amazing replay ability where other games
suffer from this.

As for Bloodborne and Dark Souls 3, I know BB is extremely popular here on GAF but I feel like it's worse than Dark 2, Demon and Dark 1. The game and atmosphere is beautiful but I find everything else extremely lacking. The vials was a huge downgrade to the Estus Flasks for several reasons, and there is almost literally only one way to play the game with practically no build variety, also PVP is the weakest in BB. People loved the combat in BB and I feel this is a strong aspect of the game but no build variety makes every fight a dash and slash game. Also the chalice dungeon was a mistake.

Dark Souls 3 is prob by far the most disappointing of the series to me, if compared to the others. It's an amazing game but it somehow is less memorable than Dark Souls 2, which is weird. As pointed out before, Dark Souls 3 feels like a greatest hits souls game with a ton of "remember this from Dark Souls 1?". I felt that hurt the game a lot and Dark 3 didn't improve much to the other series. Online is vastly improved in 3 sure, and there are new and interesting weapons and spells but otherwise i feel this game has the less replay value.

Even with all of these complaints, I love all of these games for different reasons and I'm actually replaying Dark 2 and found it extremely enjoyable, especially since it's its own game and comparing it to other souls games hurts it because I feel that having it's own identity is it's strong point where in Dark Souls 3, having no identity is what hurt it most for me.

TLDR; Dark 2 is fun for not following the mold, Dark 3 is weakest for playing it safe, and Bloodbourne is great but lacks content and I feel like every game is amazing in it's own way but otherwise my opinion is:

Dark 1 > DeS > Dark 2 > BB > Dark 3

 

[Breads]

pix

It angers me that the Hexer set is fully modelled in DS3 but does not appear in the game. I actually like this set a lot. It's light and the hood is stylish af!

 

[Opa-Pa]

Good luck OP because it doesn't get much better, I think I only genuinely enjoyed like 4 areas in the game, it was a letdown.

Also are you playing vanilla DaS2 or Scholar? I don't even know which one is supposed to be better anymore, but I've only played Scholar and I'm looking into starting vanilla sometime soon to give the game another chance.

Hey, at least once you're done with it, you'll likely enjoy the first game?

 

[Wensih]

I guess you don't realize this since I'm having to point it out...but we're both stating the obvious. Maybe read what I was replying to.

Sorry, I thought you were critiquing Bloodborne saying it would be unplayable if it wasn't for that essential gameplay element that the rest of the game was built around.

 

[Novocaine]

Why are you grinding to clear out an area? I mean play how you want to I suppose but that sounds like a horrible way to play.

 

[bubumiao]

It seems like the order in which one experiences these games might contribute to ones' overall enjoyment of said Souls game.

I've played probably 75% of a play through of Demon's Souls (didn't beat it). That's the extent of my experience with the Souls/Bloodborne universe.

I have Bloodborne and am getting Dark Soul's II: Scholar of the First Sin for Christmas. Should I play Dark Soul's II first? Seems like that'd be my best bet, or go back and finish Demon's Souls? Only problem is I just got a ps4 pro and I'm itching to play my new games.

 

[Sanctuary]

It seems like the order in which one experiences these games might contribute to ones' overall enjoyment of said Souls game.

I've played probably 75% of a play through of Demon's Souls (didn't beat it). That's the extent of my experience with the Souls/Bloodborne universe.

I have Bloodborne and am getting Dark Soul's II: Scholar of the First Sin for Christmas. Should I play Dark Soul's II first? Seems like that'd be my best bet, or go back and finish Demon's Souls? Only problem is I just got a ps4 pro and I'm itching to play my new games.

Finish Demon's Souls, beg, borrow or steal Dark Souls (do you have a remotely decent PC?) then play SotFS and finally Bloodborne.

Spoiler

I shouldn't have to get this specific, but the above statement isn't about piracy at all...

 

[Wensih]

I know this may be unpopular opinion but I've found Bloodborne and Dark Souls 3 the weakest games of the series. What I like about Dark 2 is the vast level of content while also feeling completely fresh and different from every other souls games. It has it's own identity while also having Souls mechanics. I also don't get how people complain how Dark 2 level design is not interconnected yet Demon suffers from this as well and no one complains about that game.

The only complaint I have about Dark 2 are hitboxes are bad and the soul memory mechanic. It's one of the only games where a caster build is viable along with Demon Souls. Otherwise casters often got the short end of the stick, especially in PVP. Dark 2 is also probably the only game I feel has amazing replay ability where other games
suffer from this.

As for Bloodborne and Dark Souls 3, I know BB is extremely popular here on GAF but I feel like it's worse than Dark 2, Demon and Dark 1. The game and atmosphere is beautiful but I find everything else extremely lacking. The vials was a huge downgrade to the Estus Flasks for several reasons, and there is almost literally only one way to play the game with practically no build variety, also PVP is the weakest in BB. People loved the combat in BB and I feel this is a strong aspect of the game but no build variety makes every fight a dash and slash game. Also the chalice dungeon was a mistake.

Dark Souls 3 is prob by far the most disappointing of the series to me, if compared to the others. It's an amazing game but it somehow is less memorable than Dark Souls 2, which is weird. As pointed out before, Dark Souls 3 feels like a greatest hits souls game with a ton of "remember this from Dark Souls 1?". I felt that hurt the game a lot and Dark 3 didn't improve much to the other series. Online is vastly improved in 3 sure, and there are new and interesting weapons and spells but otherwise i feel this game has the less replay value.

Even with all of these complaints, I love all of these games for different reasons and I'm actually replaying Dark 2 and found it extremely enjoyable, especially since it's its own game and comparing it to other souls games hurts it because I feel that having it's own identity is it's strong point where in Dark Souls 3, having no identity is what hurt it most for me.

TLDR; Dark 2 is fun for not following the mold, Dark 3 is weakest for playing it safe, and Bloodbourne is great but lacks content and I feel like every game is amazing in it's own way but otherwise my opinion is:

Dark 1 > DeS > Dark 2 > BB > Dark 3

I don't think the streamlining of Bloodborne is a knock against the game because it's focused. For all the talk about variety, that people champion for the Souls series there are a lot of builds that just are not viable or only useful in limited situations, especially when the developers patch and nerf certain builds like magic/miracles in Dark Souls II.

As for the greatest hits, nature of Dark Souls III. The series has always been about cycles, rebirth, and the paradoxical juxtaposition of changing constants. Dark Souls II had similar callbacks and references, albeit some less overt, that lead to arguments within the community about the origins of Drangleic. Despite the fact that the name of some locations are shared by Dark Souls and Dark Souls III, the geography and level design has been completely hauled over through the ages, and I think that is the marvel of the areas in Dark Souls III. It's not the fact that I'm revisiting Firelink Shrine, but that I'm revisiting Firelink Shrine which overtime has a temple built around it.

 

[bubumiao]

Finish Demon's Souls, beg, borrow or steal Dark Souls (do you have a remotely decent PC?) then play SotFS and finally Bloodborne.

Spoiler

I shouldn't have to get this specific, but the above statement isn't about piracy at all...

I don't have a decent PC. I planned to get the Prepare to Die Edition for ps3 off eBay.

But you think I should go Demon Souls -> Dark Souls -> Dark Souls II -> ?

 

[Raiden]

Slightly OT, but NeoGAF has too many "not real important" threads as it is!

I get frustrated in video games easy and I always use easy mode. I don't use cheat codes though, if that matters. For that reason, I was hyped for Demon Souls, but everybody kept saying it was so hard, I stayed away because I figured I would just get frustrated, as I'm very impatient.

Mostly I just hate the feeling of 30mins to an hour or so, then die and start over, or spend 2 hours dying and then finally being out of freetime for the day -- it's like, what did I accomplish?



So with that HUGE disclaimer, if I wanted to give the series a shot, should I try Demon Souls, or should I get Dark Souls 1? Also, is Demon Souls is ps3 only correct? And for Dark Souls 1, can I and should I get that for PC?


Thanks for Souls guidance.

No.

Seriously its not for you.

 

[Breads]

I don't think the streamlining of Bloodborne is a knock against the game because it's focused. For all the talk about variety, that people champion for the Souls series there are a lot of builds that just are not viable or only useful in limited situations, especially when the developers patch and nerf certain builds like magic/miracles in Dark Souls II.

wut

That's a very bold statement.

Faith casting, aka lighting/ emit force throwing builds were gutted and sorcery builds benefit from using dark orb. To say that "a lot of builds that just are not viable or only useful in limited situations" is demonstrably not true. Faith and Sorcery builds, whatever flavor they may be, are still viable. Especially compared to any other version of similar builds in the series.. except for maybe female royalty caster in DeS.

 

[Teeth]

The last boss I fought was The Pursuer. Afterward I was transported to some destroyed castle by the bird that initially flew around with the boss. Got some key here but didn't for the life of me know where to go so I consulted a FAQ and found that I have to (or should) fight Dragonrider. So here I am at Heide's Tower of Flame trying to fight each enemy 15 times so that they're clear of my path to the boss while also farming souls.

I was having an argument with another designer the other day and my postulation was essentially this:

If you make an encounter (or set of encounters) that is exciting but challenging (or hard) but put an "out" where the user can do something incredibly tedious, but make it much easier, most users will do the incredibly tedious thing and tell you your game is boring.

He stated that players will generally try to maximize their own fun, but I'm pretty sure that's not true. Players will take the path of least resistance most times and blame you for making it boring, even if better, more exciting options exist.

I appreciate you making this thread so that I can show him this and prove my point.

 

[Zaventem]

I know this may be unpopular opinion but I've found Bloodborne and Dark Souls 3 the weakest games of the series. What I like about Dark 2 is the vast level of content while also feeling completely fresh and different from every other souls games. It has it's own identity while also having Souls mechanics. I also don't get how people complain how Dark 2 level design is not interconnected yet Demon suffers from this as well and no one complains about that game.

Demon's didn't have level connectivity but the levels were far from point A to B that made sure to use it's complexity and vertacality to full effect that the majority of Dark Souls 2 does away with, I would say that Demon's Souls is STILL at the top when it comes to that only being rivaled by certain areas in bloodborne. Texture work is the worst in that game too, didn't help the beta dialed things down massively in terms of how the game looks that left many disapointed and constantly comparing. Also asking people to get a version 2.0 and split the base because the "improvements"(some areas imo are actually made worse imo and are called out by other game reviewers too) wouldn't "work" on the base version was a big slap in the face to many. I will always remember dark souls 2 as a game with some great ideas like bonfire ascetic! that sadly never made a return in some form. To this day the sales numbers they released for the series thus far has Dark Souls 2 as the least selling title and just shows it just isn't possible to cater to everyone with a series like this, and im glad they got that experimentation out the way early in the IP's cycle.

 

[AlexBasch]

Holy shit, I really dislike Dark Souls 2 a lot, but reading the whole OP I couldn't help but think "what the fuck are you doing, OP?"

Slightly OT, but NeoGAF has too many "not real important" threads as it is!

I get frustrated in video games easy and I always use easy mode. I don't use cheat codes though, if that matters. For that reason, I was hyped for Demon Souls, but everybody kept saying it was so hard, I stayed away because I figured I would just get frustrated, as I'm very impatient.

Mostly I just hate the feeling of 30mins to an hour or so, then die and start over, or spend 2 hours dying and then finally being out of freetime for the day -- it's like, what did I accomplish?



So with that HUGE disclaimer, if I wanted to give the series a shot, should I try Demon Souls, or should I get Dark Souls 1? Also, is Demon Souls is ps3 only correct? And for Dark Souls 1, can I and should I get that for PC?

Thanks for Souls guidance.

Play something else.

 

[Kerned]

The problem is that you're trying to compare it to Bloodborne when you should be comparing it to Lords of the Fallen.

Ice.
Fucking.
Cold.

Spoiler

You're not wrong.

 

[FRS1987]

Also asking people to get a version 2.0 and split the base because the "improvements"(some areas imo are actually made worse imo and are called out by other game reviewers too) wouldn't "work" on the base version was a big slap in the face to many. I will always remember dark souls 2 as a game with some great ideas like bonfire ascetic! that sadly never made a return in some form. To this day the sales numbers they released for the series thus far has Dark Souls 2 as the least selling title and just shows it just isn't possible to cater to everyone with a series like this, and im glad they got that experimentation out the way early in the IP's cycle.

I agree about 2 being experimental, i actually forgot that the game changed a lot, most of them were questionable changes too.Even though I enjoy two, I can admit it is extremely flawed. Replaying the game now, I still make mistakes and look for npcs in the wrong areas since them moved them around. A lot of the new enemy placements were weird too. I forgot to mention how 2 also had the worst bosses who recylced movesets from dark 1. Two also had way too many bosses, iirc almost half of them were totally optional

 

[Gator86]

- Better covenants
- Better PvP
- Viable builds
- Power stancing

Got you covered, defenders of this sad excuse for a souls game.

Now on with the reality:

- Downgraded, unresponsive gameplay
- Trash animations
- Deadzone
- ADP
- Awful hitboxes
- Garbage "bosses"
- Terrible level design
- Clown cars
- Nonsensical transitions
- Way too many (irrelevant and boring) NPCs
- Uninspired story
- Palette swap weapons
- Shrine of Amana
- The Gank Squad
- Half the stamina bar/recovery but double the enemies
- Infinite stamina enemies
- Soul memory
- Too many bonfires, useless the half of them
- Overall feeling of Gameloft knock-off

The problem is that you're trying to compare it to Bloodborne when you should be comparing it to Lords of the Fallen. This game does not belong in the same group as DS1-3, DeS and BB. It's funny the reasons some people use to defend this game –easier PvP interaction, more viable builds, more covenants, more replayability– are ultimately completely and absolutely irrelevant because the core gameplay is by far the worst. Like, Demon's Souls is half the size of Dark Souls II in regards to just about everything yet it is still better than DS2 could ever hope to be.

Jesus Christ. What a savage post.

 

[DustyVonEric]

OP, if you're not having fun, end your playthrough and hop onto DS3.

DS3 feels more in line with Demons' Souls and Bloodborne to me. Like a Souls greatest hits.

I get the complaints regarding DS2. I still had fun with it, but not near as much fun as I have with DeS, DS 1&3, and BB.

 

[MrOogieBoogie]

This is the only series where my favorite game will change from day to day. Except Dark Souls 2, because I haven't played it.

 

[TheOfficeMut]

Good luck OP because it doesn't get much better, I think I only genuinely enjoyed like 4 areas in the game, it was a letdown.

Also are you playing vanilla DaS2 or Scholar? I don't even know which one is supposed to be better anymore, but I've only played Scholar and I'm looking into starting vanilla sometime soon to give the game another chance.

Hey, at least once you're done with it, you'll likely enjoy the first game?

I'm playing Scholar. Just got to the Wharf area with the pirate ship in a bay.

 

[JBwB]

Having completed Bloodborne recently I have to agree. BB is better than DS2 going by my experience with them.

Dark Souls 3 is better than both though imo.

 

[Kaisos]

I guess it just depends on where you started with the series. Demon's Souls still has the best loading screens and atmosphere. It was also the second fastest game until Dark Souls 3. I still find it to be tied with Dark Souls for the best game however.

I just can't really stand the consumables and lack of shortcuts outside World 1. The game is also really short? Even though nothing is optional. It's sorta odd in that regard.

I feel that almost everything DeS does well has been done better in later games. That doesn't make it BAD, and I do like the game, but it's not a favorite.

 

[SlipperyFishes]

This is bait, by the way.

No. this is bait.

Should have just played 1 and 3 instead. There's really no reason to play 2 unless you are starving for more Souls after you beat the proper games.

The PvP is terrible in the entire series, don't believe their lies.

 

[TheOfficeMut]

Also hate how long it takes for life gems to heal.

 

[Vitor711]

The problem is that you're trying to compare it to Bloodborne when you should be comparing it to Lords of the Fallen. This game does not belong in the same group as DS1-3, DeS and BB. It's funny the reasons some people use to defend this game &#8211;easier PvP interaction, more viable builds, more covenants, more replayability&#8211; are ultimately completely and absolutely irrelevant because the core gameplay is by far the worst. Like, Demon's Souls is half the size of Dark Souls II in regards to just about everything yet it is still better than DS2 could ever hope to be.

Taste is subjective but there are points here that are flatout wrong and full of hyperbole.

Pros:
- Better covenants
- Better PvP
- Viable builds
- Power stancing
- Fashion Souls - most armour variety of any game
- Weapon variety
- The furthest the series has ever been to the RPG side of the Action-RPG divide


Cons
- Downgraded, unresponsive gameplay

I'm sorry, what? Like, literally not a thing, especially with the 60FPS rerelease on current-gen which I'd consider some of the most responsive souls gameplay. This is only a supposed problem when you have low ADP since the i-frames are so few.

- Trash animations

Again, what? There's so much variety in this game from weapons to stances that I don't doubt there are some poor animations thrown in but, as a whole? Come on.

- Deadzone

Not sure what you mean here. Like, camera controls? Played the game on PC, never had an issue.

- ADP

It's poorly explained and was a massive shift from prior series so I understand why people hate it. It only takes around 5 levels of 'wasted' points to put it back where it was though.

- Awful hitboxes

Honestly only an issue with two bosses and completely overblown. I can show you terrible clipping in BB, DS and DeS as well.

- Garbage "bosses"

Sir Alonne and Fume Knight are considered some of the best bosses in the series but a lot of fans, even those who don't rate DS2 the highest. Outside of the DLC, Darklurker is incredible. Velstadt, Looking Glass Knight, The Rotten, Executioner's Chariot and Smelter Demon are all great too. To be fair, DS2 does frontload a lot of the weaker bosses in the first half of the game.

- Terrible level design

Does not apply to the DLC at all. Those three pieces of 6-10 hour content (each) are up there with the best in the series. Base game has some issues but the variety does make up for some of it.

- Clown cars

This is just the Gank Squad complain below.

- Nonsensical transitions

Overall world is not as well connected as BB or DS. However, the only really egregious example is the Volcano transition. Outside of that, it's honestly fine. The other games are better but I think world feel is a little overblown as like a damning factor against this title

- Way too many (irrelevant and boring) NPCs

Nonsense. Some of my favourite NPC stories come from DS2 and they have vastly more lines of recorded dialogue than DS3.

- Uninspired story

Preferred it to the constant wink and nod nostalgia of DS3. It's trying something new and some of the lore behind it was fascinating.

- Palette swap weapons

Not true here and really an issue in all the games outside of BB. This completely ignores the fact that you even stated build variety as a positive above. That variety comes not only from great stat distribution and balance but also a metric fuck tonne of weapon types. Completely wrong here.

- Shrine of Amana

Pre-patch or post? Because pre-patch, yeah, fuck that noise. Pretty area though.

- The Gank Squad

Worse in SotFS but, even then, I'd argue that they're not that bad. If you're commenting on the DLC bosses, I found those to be a weird design decision but they're also optional.

- Half the stamina bar/recovery but double the enemies

Honestly, game is balanced around it. It's not an issue and no-one considers DS2 to be the hardest entry in spite of this.

- Infinite stamina enemies

Agreed, horseshit. Should not be a thing.

- Soul memory

Still the best and most fair PvP of the series. Most people won't argue against that.

- Too many bonfires, useless the half of them

The excessive ones were always put in place of the puzzle bosses or the bosses with the most BS mechanics. Honestly, I appreciated this.

- Overall feeling of Gameloft knock-off

Fuck. Right. Off. Can't take this post seriously - the art direction is phenomenal, even if the technical side can't always keep up (see shaded woods). Fashion Souls was at its peak here and the DLC is better than Artoria of the Abyss. By, like a lot.

 

[mindsale]

The Shrine of Amana is the best locale in the entirety of the Souls games.

It's odd, I played and hated this game twice before I fell in love with it. My favorite of Demon / DS-3 / BB.

 

[Kudo]

Seriously. Congrats on farming every drop/buying every shop item, or something.

Thanks, Bloodborne trophy doesn't involve any farming though, just requires you to actually play all the content the game has, so I think it's perfectly valid thing to say when talking about stuff like this.

 

[SlipperyFishes]

Too many bonfires, useless the half of them

Have you even played Dark Souls 3 and seen the stupid as FUCK multiple bonfires in line of sight from one another?

The Shrine of Amana is the best locale in the entirety of the Souls games.

It's odd, I played and hated this game twice before I fell in love with it. My favorite of Demon / DS-3 / BB.

I really liked the area and the melody sang. The point of that area for me was to be tactical in how to engage with enemies while observing where you stood. I'm guessing most people tried to run the gauntlet and fell into the abyss.

Use a torch. Tread carefully and it'll be fine. It also had the really fascinating lore thread where you had to be hollow to enter a certain area.

But no it's the worst thing ever /s

 

[DemWalls]

That one map I got transported to by the bird after The Pursuer has been the worst offender. I firmly believe there are good and bad claustrophobic designs but this one is just bad. It's not enjoyable in the slightest.

I thought the Bastille was possibly the best non-DLC level in the game. Too bad it's rather bland aesthetically.

 

[storafötter]

Gaf has definitely made playing DS2 a scary affair. However I decided not to play it until I am done with 1 and 3. I think all of the Souls series got a lot of flaws, but at the same time positives.

I wasnt feeling Dark Souls in the beginning but when I got mid through I ended up enjoying it more when new areas opened up. Nevertheless I look forward to trying Dark Souls 2 once I am done with 1 and 3.

 

[Clarkus Darkus]

Worst in the series, Yet i find myself going back too it more than the others. Currently co-oping it with a friend.